Pagan topic - Tapati answers some questions

deleted original discussion of how I left Gaudiya Vaishnavism and ended up a pagan. It's been read already, and I'd rather not leave it up. Some answers to questions have been left in place, some personal detail omitted.

Blessed Be on your own spiritual path--

Tapati

deleted

Tapati,

You seem to be of the opinion that the practice of spell casting be restricted, or kept to the extremely necessary level. As long as the clause “the good of all concerned” is never violated, is there still a possibility that spells will not be as effective, powerful, if the practitioner resorts to them too often? It seems to me that there is some considerable difference there between simply praying and "putting a prayer to work", so to speak.

Thanks in advance for answering. It is nice to know of a witch with some experience of vaisnavism, by the way.

I would say that I personally am of the opinion that spellcasting shouldn't be an everyday affair, just as you wouldn' t do a fire sacrifice every day of the week. It is quite an expenditure of energy and is best reserved for important and necessary functions, in my opinion. What can happen, and Starhawk writes about this in a section of Z. Budapest's book called "Dangers of Magic," is that you deplete your energy with too many spells and can have serious physical and psychological effects. New witches are prone to this when they get so excited about their first spells that work, they go way overboard and start doing spells right and left. You have to take some time off to replenish your energy and take care of you body and spirit.

I also have the sense from my devotional history that it's not about me, and what I want, so I am conservative about what I ask for myself rather than for others. If I'm in dire need of money, need help finding a place to live, or something of that nature, then fine, but to get rich for the sake of getting rich, no thanks. My focus is more on my relationship with my Goddess rather than what I can get.

It also takes more time to plan and implement so it's not practical to do all the time if you are doing it with thought and care. Often you are creating your own spells (I find them better than canned spells just because symbolism can be a very personal thing and if I do it myself I control the symbolism) and that takes time and thought, then you gather materials, write down what you're planning to do, pick the most conducive time (ie phase of the moon), and then allot the time to do it...so it's a lot of work. If there's a specific location involved, then you have travel time. (It's rare that I do one on location somewhere other than my home, but it could be appropriate for some things. My crossing over ritual for my Mom involved the ocean, for example. I recently participated in a group blessing for a mom-to-be at her house.)

I would say that my experience with the Vaisnava tradition influences everything I do in witchcraft.

Feel free to ask for examples if you want to know more about actual spells.

I need a spell for getting money, just this one time. Seriously.

Oh, there are lots of money spells. You have to be very careful with wording though. No one wants to do a spell for a sudden windfall and have it come because their parents died!

I can post one or two as those are the most often requested spells, right up there with love spells. Then no one has to ask, or tell anyone whether they use them or not.

I should say that some witches might disagree with me totally on the frequency issue. They might say that only by regular spellcasting can you build your powers and ability. If that's your goal, that might be your best route. That doesn't happen to be my goal. I am still influenced by admonitions against being distracted by mystic powers.

In my opinion, just because you can do something doesn't mean you always should.

self blessing spell deleted, see Z Budapest's books or web site for more info.

QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 9 2004, 02:51 PM)

............ New witches are prone to this when they get so excited about their first spells that work, they go way overboard and start doing spells right and left. You have to take some time off to replenish your energy and take care of you body and spirit.

Seems there's a little challenge for Tapati d, to pocket a Million for the sake of serving humanity

:

QUOTE

Mystics Can Pocket a Million--When Pigs Can Fly

By Sven Nordenstam
Mon Dec 10, 2004 08:38 AM ET
STOCKHOLM (Reuters) - A sworn enemy of superstition, Canadian-born magician James Randi has thrown down the gauntlet to mystics, promising $1 million to anyone who can prove supernatural powers or a phenomenon beyond the reach of science.

An arch-skeptic who demonstrates with his own sleight of hand how easily it is to dupe the gullible into mistaking trickery for the supernatural, the bearded 76-year-old has written nine books and lectured at the White House, NASA and several top U.S. universities.

The million-dollar "paranormal challenge" lends publicity to Randi's life-long mission.

His pursuit of skepticism was sparked by a visit to a spiritualist church in his native Toronto when he was just 15.

Already an amateur magician, he was upset at seeing "common tricks" pass for divine intervention. But his attempts at enlightening the churchgoers cost him four hours questioning at the police station.

Sixty years on, Randi is still trying to persuade people to give up their belief in mystic forces beyond their control.

"It's a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense. You're giving away your money to the charlatans, you're giving away your emotional security, and sometimes your life," he explained in an interview before giving a lecture in Stockholm.

A MAN OBSESSED

Deeply concerned with the spread of beliefs not based on the principles of science, Randi is especially worried about the growing popularity of exotic cures and therapies catering to sick people who are then lured away from effective treatments.

"It's a mission, and also an obsession," he said.

The challenge also serves to dent the image of professional psychics, as they so far have balked at the chance to win the million.

"They offer all kinds of strange excuses," he said.

On a European tour of Germany, Italy, Ireland, Belgium and Sweden, Randi tested people who wanted to go for his million. Most applicants sincerely believe they have supernatural gifts, the vast majority claiming to possess the power of dowsing -- the ability to detect water with the help of a cleft stick.

Dowsing has never been proved to work in a controlled setting, said Randi.

"But no one ever changes their mind," he said, recalling only one single case throughout the years where a man backed down from his claim after being tested.

At a lecture to promote critical thinking, a Swedish audience of about 300 applauded and laughed as Randi blasted away at astrologers, homeopathists, faith healers and psychic mediums, accusing them of defrauding the sick and the desperate.

Riddling his performance with tricks--divining the symbols on cards put in an envelope by an apparently randomly chosen audience member--Randi says his own expertise at "magic" helps him expose fraudsters.

"As a magician I know two things -- how to deceive people and how people deceive themselves."

OFFENDING SPOON-BENDERS

On one particular night Randi was in the company of hundreds of cheering fellow skeptics, but not everyone appreciated seeing their beliefs shattered.

"I get threats all the time. I don't answer the door unless I know who's there," he said.

His most famous adversary is Uri Geller, the Israeli psychic who became a celebrity in the '70s for bending spoons. Geller sued him for libel for his book "The Truth About Uri Geller." It has cost Randi a fortune in legal fees, but he has not yet been able to get the book removed from the shelves.

Randi demonstrated to a reporter how he too is capable of mystically mistreating cutlery, but as a magic trick.

He carefully pointed out that he does not deny Geller might have supernatural talent -- just as he does not rule out the existence of supernatural phenomena.

"If Geller does it by divine power, he does it the hard way," he said.

Randi said he would be happy to hand over the prize if presented with solid evidence.

"That would be such an advance for our knowledge of the universe that it would be well worth $1 million," he said. "The possibility is very, very small, but it's there."

The prospects for the mystically minded don't look too rosy, though. The James Randi Educational Foundation, based in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, has tested hundreds of applicants. But no one has ever passed even the preliminary tests.

On the lapel of his jacket, Randi wears a pin with the mascot of the organization, a winged pig called Pigasus.

"We say that we will give away the million dollars when pigs can fly."

QUOTE

Seems there's a little challenge for Tapati d, to pocket a Million for the sake of serving humanity

Well, reverse that challenge and see if Mr. Randi is willing to trust Tapati dasi a Million just for the sake of serving her trust in humanity. No hocus-pocus! Tapati is a sorceress, while Mr. Randi is just a pretender. If he thinks playing chicken with the gods/goddess is worth ONLY a million dollars, perhaps his estimations are in need of a little touch of magic.

I have always been willing to freely acknowledge that I have no proof that when something happens that I was trying to bring about with a spell, that the spell was the deciding factor in making it happen.

Nor do I advise people to rely solely on magic or non-traditional medicine for serious problems, one of Randi's concerns that I share.

I don't charge for my services and I don't tell the future--divination is not my specialty. I will say that Vedic astrology accurately predicted the time period my mother would die. Happenstance? Maybe.

When you cast a spell, you are one swirl of energy inserting your will into a universe alive with energetic currents. Can your one tiny swirl always influence events? Not if you are going against an enormous flow in the opposite direction. It's like trying to swim upstream in a powerful river. Hence my dramatic election eve spell(s) did not work. Alas. Yet I had to try and add any small thing that would help, and knew other pagans were likely joining me in that effort.

That's why it tends to work for smaller things where lots of people aren't focussing on the opposite of what you want to happen.

I notice that even Randi is willing to concede that supernatural power may exist. We are actually closer to each other's position than it appears on the surface. His default is science, and he conceded that supernatural powers might work. My default is religion, and I concede that it may never be possible to prove scientifically any of the things we believe.

QUOTE

His default is science, and he conceded that supernatural powers might work. My default is religion, and I concede that it may never be possible to prove scientifically any of the things we believe.

Wise and honest.

I wanted to share the following passage with you as it's been a favorite of mine for about a decade now. I found it in a goddess calendar:

Grace

It is no coincidence that we use the word grace both to describe physical beauty of movement and for a state of spiritual blessedness. When life-energy flows in its fullness through any living being, it manifests internally as pleasure and externally as grace.

Grace and pleasure are natural attributes of the sacred. Every time you ignore what gives your body pleasure, you lose some of the grace that every child and every wild animal possesses in such abundance.

Grace is a wonderful word, one of the few in the English language that stands at the intersection of the physical and the spiritual, reminding us that our task as human beings is not simply to identify ourselves as spiritual beings, but to embody spirit.

Grace is the fruit of such embodiment.

--Jalaja Bonheim

Haribol and Bright Blessings!

Tapati Ma, from which tradition are you? Are you Wiccan and/or Pagan? Solitary or in a coven?
I am currently taking the Correllian Wiccan 1st degree as "hobby", to gain knowledge and for preaching purposes.

Radhe Radhe

deleted

QUOTE(Sadhupriya @ Dec 14 2004, 07:22 AM)

Haribol and Bright Blessings!

Tapati Ma, from which tradition are you? Are you Wiccan and/or Pagan? Solitary or in a coven?
I am currently taking the Correllian Wiccan 1st degree as "hobby", to gain knowledge and for preaching purposes.

Radhe Radhe

Well Met!

I started out with Dianic Wicca, solitary but I had a study group on campus, I was an older re-entry student. I've done a bit of ritual in groups but I like to do solitary rituals. I don't know what I'd call myself now.

Eclectic.

I haven't heard of Correllian. Tell me more!

Blessed Be*

QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 8 2004, 07:10 PM)

Charge of the Goddess...

...and becoming a feminist once again

Please feel free to ask questions about what you've seen so far.

I think the feminist movement has done some good for it has inspired millions of men to take up the call to be men of God seen in such things as the "Million Man March" in Washington D.C. or Promise Keepers events held accross the country in sports stadiums (which justifies to me the goverment's taking a bigger interest in building new and better sports stadiums than they do schools) but feminists have gone way to far to suggest God is Goddess. God is Father and God has a penis!

Feminist historians have also suggested there being a time thousands of years ago when women ruled the earth. Never was there a time when women ruled ruled the earth, well at least not in my house.

QUOTE(babu @ Dec 14 2004, 08:41 AM)

I think the feminist movement has done some good for it has inspired millions of men to take up the call to be men of God seen in such things as the "Million Man March" in Washington D.C. or Promise Keepers events held accross the country in sports stadiums (which justifies to me the goverment's taking a bigger interest in building new and better sports stadiums than they do schools) but feminists have gone way to far to suggest God is Goddess. God is Father and God has a penis!

Feminist historians have also suggested there being a time thousands of years ago when women ruled the earth. Never was there a time when women ruled ruled the earth, well at least not in my house.

Most pagans (except perhaps some Dianic separatist diehards) accept that the Divine has both feminine and masculine attributes, and acknowledge the Lord and Lady.

Feminist pagans feel we had to envision only a God with male qualities for our childhood and early adulthood, and that it's empowering to tune into the feminine aspects of the Divine for a change. Focus only on the masculine aspects of the Deity supports the patriarchy and we are seeking a more egalitarian relationship between the sexes. Yes this counters Vaisnava practice and belief, which is patriarchal, and that's one reason (out of several) why I'll probably never be only a Vaisnava again in this lifetime, but rather a pagan with some Vaisnava leanings.

Of course, in Vaisnava theology, in terms of "enjoyer and enjoyed" God is male and we are all female. That view, though, seems dependent on a view of women as "enjoyed" rather than "enjoyers" or active participants in pleasure. I don't really agree with that view of women either.

Whether or not any culture was or wasn't matriarchal entirely is still debated, but there were certainly cultures that gave women more power and authority than some others. Even feminists disagree about whether there were any societies in which women ruled completely (other than the occasional monarch).

After the anti-women iskcon experience, paganism was very healing. As I said recently in another forum, pagan men appreciate the love of a good matriarch.

Just a short story folks reading here might find interesting: I have a friend who makes spell kits for market (and does very well at it too). For many years now she has manage to be an aspring vaisnavi with her own witchy bent to it. She has taken a spiritual name of her own, and made it her service to craft incredible jewelry for the Radha Krsna deities at the local temple. Last sunday as we met at the temple for a wedding event, I approached her as she stood in front of the altar gazing at Sri Sri Radha-Golokananda, and whispered a question in her ear, "Do you still, as you used to do, hold your hand in front of one of your eyes when looking at the deities, so you will only see Radharani, leaving Krsna out of the picture?"Without moving her gaze from the altar but breaking into a pleasant smile, she whispered back: "No, over the years I have grown increasingly curious to stare at Him too. I figured, if He is good enough for Her, He should be good enough for me too..."

QUOTE(Anand @ Dec 14 2004, 10:22 PM)

"No, over the years I have grown increasingly curious to stare at Him too. I figured, if He is good enough for Her, He should be good enough for me too..."

Can someone forward this to Gopidust.

QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 14 2004, 09:34 PM)

QUOTE(babu @ Dec 14 2004, 08:41 AM)

I think the feminist movement has done some good for it has inspired millions of men to take up the call to be men of God seen in such things as the "Million Man March" in Washington D.C. or Promise Keepers events held accross the country in sports stadiums (which justifies to me the goverment's taking a bigger interest in building new and better sports stadiums than they do schools) but feminists have gone way to far to suggest God is Goddess. God is Father and God has a penis!

Feminist historians have also suggested there being a time thousands of years ago when women ruled the earth. Never was there a time when women ruled ruled the earth, well at least not in my house.

Most pagans (except perhaps some Dianic separatist diehards) accept that the Divine has both feminine and masculine attributes, and acknowledge the Lord and Lady.

Feminist pagans feel we had to envision only a God with male qualities for our childhood and early adulthood, and that it's empowering to tune into the feminine aspects of the Divine for a change. Focus only on the masculine aspects of the Deity supports the patriarchy and we are seeking a more egalitarian relationship between the sexes. Yes this counters Vaisnava practice and belief, which is patriarchal, and that's one reason (out of several) why I'll probably never be only a Vaisnava again in this lifetime, but rather a pagan with some Vaisnava leanings.

Of course, in Vaisnava theology, in terms of "enjoyer and enjoyed" God is male and we are all female. That view, though, seems dependent on a view of women as "enjoyed" rather than "enjoyers" or active participants in pleasure. I don't really agree with that view of women either.

Whether or not any culture was or wasn't matriarchal entirely is still debated, but there were certainly cultures that gave women more power and authority than some others. Even feminists disagree about whether there were any societies in which women ruled completely (other than the occasional monarch).

After the anti-women iskcon experience, paganism was very healing. As I said recently in another forum, pagan men appreciate the love of a good matriarch.

Thank you for your answers, Tapati. And too, my statements are from a much, much abridged performance piece I wrote known as "This Man Will Not Step Back." They are humorous in nature which I am not quite sure if it was picked up on as such and do not reflect the opinions of the author, well, ok, maybe sometimes I try to be the top dog in the household but my partner quickly puts me in place.

You're welcome. I am not entirely against things like promise keepers, etc., if it encourages men to also address the issue of domestic violence and causes good men to help those who are so inclined to overcome that tendency. I think frank discussion is needed among men about the issue so that it is acceptable to get help to overcome it. If people want to live in traditional families I am all for their right to do so.

I too am for men to be whole men in God but I think much of traditional family values leads to fragmentization.

QUOTE

It is no coincidence that we use the word grace both to describe physical beauty of movement and for a state of spiritual blessedness. When life-energy flows in its fullness through any living being, it manifests internally as pleasure and externally as grace.

Dear Tapati,

This is indeed a very nice thought, and well expressed. If you like it then maybe you will also like the following quote (supposed to be in Talmud; I don't read Talmud but I hope it is there!):

"God will judge us for every good thing God gave us that we failed to enjoy."

-- Dhyana, the quote junkie

QUOTE

Babu writes:

Thank you for your answers, Tapati. And too, my statements are from a much, much abridged performance piece I wrote known as "This Man Will Not Step Back." They are humorous in nature which I am not quite sure if it was picked up on as such and do not reflect the opinions of the author, well, ok, maybe sometimes I try to be the top dog in the household but my partner quickly puts me in place.

If I appear to be humor impaired, it's because I recently did encounter a very traditional man on another forum who actually started a topic about how women's brains were smaller than men's and would regularly state things like, "Men have reason. Women only have sentiment. They do not like to talk about spiritual matters. They prefer to speak about social matters. Wives will be happy if you give them nice things like jewelry. Rambhoru should have appreciated her austerities and only said nice things about her husband." (These are paraphrases as he is Russian and his English is not good.) So yes, I took your statements at face value following on the heels of reading things like this elsewhere! When I get to know you all much better I am sure I'll know when someone is putting me on! Thanks for the clarification!

And thank you, Dhyana, for another quote to add to my collection. I think I have heard something very like that before.

QUOTE(Anand @ Dec 14 2004, 05:22 PM)

Just a short story folks reading here might find interesting: I have a friend who makes spell kits for market (and does very well at it too). For many years now she has manage to be an aspring vaisnavi with her own witchy bent to it. She has taken a spiritual name of her own, and made it her service to craft incredible jewelry for the Radha Krsna deities at the local temple. Last sunday as we met at the temple for a wedding event, I approached her as she stood in front of the altar gazing at Sri Sri Radha-Golokananda, and whispered a question in her ear, "Do you still, as you used to do, hold your hand in front of one of your eyes when looking at the deities, so you will only see Radharani, leaving Krsna out of the picture?"Without moving her gaze from the altar but breaking into a pleasant smile, she whispered back: "No, over the years I have grown increasingly curious to stare at Him too. I figured, if He is good enough for Her, He should be good enough for me too..."

This is a very sweet story.

About spell kits--there is a raging pagan controversy over one mass marketed to a mostly teenage audience, along with a book in the same vein. Some pagans were outraged and felt that this violated our basic stance on not seeking converts. Some pagans also argue that teens may not be ready for viewing spellcasting as a small part of a much larger theology, that they might not always be ethical in their use of it, and that we also not disrespect their parents in their effort to pass on their own belief system. Other pagans argue on the other side that these teens are looking already, and will stumble upon other books, and ought to have something directed to them and their concerns that will guide them specifically in order to help prevent these very problems. It's a very sticky issue. As someone who became a devotee while in my teens, and ran into all sorts of problems with my family (including a big scene where my mother ripped a cloth from my altar, sending everything flying off), I am torn by this issue and can see the truth in both sides. Meanwhile, teens are writing in to SageWoman Magazine and begging to be able to write articles or editorials, while some are saying they are too young and others are advocating that they have their chance to speak out.

I'd like to welcome Chanahari to our forum.

Hi Chanahari! I can't wait until you are on as a full member and can post everywhere!

He was one of the devotees standing up for women against the posts of the traditional devotee mentioned above.

He really endeared himself to me at that point.

Bright Blessings!

Still about spell kits...

QUOTE

Some pagans also argue that teens may not be ready for viewing spellcasting as a small part of a much larger theology, that they might not always be ethical in their use of it, and that we also not disrespect their parents in their effort to pass on their own belief system.

I think I understand the concern here, but I wonder if this caution from certain sections of pagans should not be expanded to include any age of curious/practitioners - I imagine that the concern is in relation to the potentially hazardous (to all involved) combination of immaturity and the power of spellcasting. As we have seen that the charm of Harry Potter has proven no age limited, we see also that fascination with the possibilities hiding in the occult renders many a grown mogul artless or even foolish. I, for example, did once purchase one of those spell kits and was mesmerized to find that it contained, among other things, a little plastic black cat (!) which I ended up throwing into a stagnant body of water instead of a moving one, as per the instructions. A little oversight on my side and, well, you don’t want to know what I ended up stuck with instead of obtaining the result the kit was designed for.

So perhaps while preservation of freedom to search, yes, should be a priority within the neo pagan movement, regulation of practices in it seem to be of great importance as well. After all, it seems only actual transcendence will be free of human errors and thus utterly good to all she concerns herself with.

You have a good point, adults can make mistakes and get themselves into trouble, misinterpret the philosophy, etc., but since they are adults we expect that they'll have to deal with their mistakes and the fallout. We hope they'll be sensible and read a number of books before they just dive in, or take advice from someone with experience.

However, the problem with standardization in the neo pagan movement is that any time you have 3 pagans in the room you're likely to have 3 opinions about how and what to standardize. You can find an alternative pagan view on almost everything.

We're a movement of highly individualistic people who didn't want canned religion so we are creating our own. We don't wantthe one true way.

In that, we're probably a great reflection of American culture and its focus on the individual.

Yet we simulataneously have the concept that we are all connected in a great big web of humanity and all other life.

Which is fine with us, as long as none of those other people tries to tell us what to do.

QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 17 2004, 12:06 AM)

You have a good point, adults can make mistakes and get themselves into trouble, misinterpret the philosophy, etc., but since they are adults we expect that they'll have to deal with their mistakes and the fallout. We hope they'll be sensible and read a number of books before they just dive in, or take advice from someone with experience.

However, the problem with standardization in the neo pagan movement is that any time you have 3 pagans in the room you're likely to have 3 opinions about how and what to standardize. You can find an alternative pagan view on almost everything.

We're a movement of highly individualistic people who didn't want canned religion so we are creating our own. We don't wantthe one true way.

In that, we're probably a great reflection of American culture and its focus on the individual.

Yet we simulataneously have the concept that we are all connected in a great big web of humanity and all other life.

Which is fine with us, as long as none of those other people tries to tell us what to do.

Sounds kindda like the way the Gaudiya Discussions crew operates.

Exactly. That's why I feel at home here.

QUOTE(Tapati @ Dec 16 2004, 09:51 AM)

I'd like to welcome Chanahari to our forum.

Hi Chanahari! I can't wait until you are on as a full member and can post everywhere!

He was one of the devotees standing up for women against the posts of the traditional devotee mentioned above.

He really endeared himself to me at that point.

Bright Blessings!

Radhe Radhe! Thank you for the kind reception.

And thanks to Jagat for his kind invitation to come here. I'm now a full member (or it seems so).

Tapati,

I saw on the various links about Paganism that Tarot cards were often mentioned. You also mentioned in one of your post about getting messages from the Goddess through the cards. I would like to ask you what is the significance of Tarot for your practice and witchcraft and is there a book about it you would recommend.

I had only one tarot reading and it was amazingly accurate. But I couldn't relate to most of the images, I don't like this style of painting. I liked Lunae's cards though which she has made herself.

Most of what we know about the Tarot in the west today comes from the Golden Dawn tradition..

I read Tarot for myself and close friends ONLY!

namaskar,

bangli

There has been quite a proliferation of Tarot card decks, all quite different, since the 1970s explosion of witchcraft and pagan traditions. Some follow the division of suits common from the traditional decks like Rider Waite deck--Swords, Pentacles or coins, Cups, and Wands. Others alter these suits and some abandon them altogether.

There are different notions also about how they work. Some say they simply represent meanings drawn from your psyche. Others say they are a vehicle for messages from the Divine or other spirits. Being my usual skeptical self, I reserve judgment and while I like to believe it is my Goddess directing which card(s) I choose, I acknowlege that I may simply be drawing them at random and interpreting them according to my own psychological need. Either way, I believe they perform a valuable service. For someone who doesn't believe in using Tarot and would like to stay faithful to their Vaisnava practices, I would recommend an alternative:

Choose a book that is suitable from among scripture. Perhaps Bhagavad Gita, with its greater empasis on philosophy as opposed to lila. Close your eyes and flip through rapidly, stop where you feel drawn to stop. Read the open pages and think about what they might mean to your current query or circumstance. Think of these pages as Krsna's personal message for you today.

One of my favorite decks has been Daughters of the Moon for its lesbian feminist perspective. (Although the creator, Ffiona Morgan, has included a heterosexual version of "The Lovers" card also.)

Another good feminist deck, less controversial and closer to the traditional decks, is the Motherpeace Tarot deck. A lot of women who use this deck really swear by it.

In the past few years I've been using Medicine Cards by Jamie Sams and David Carson, illustrated by Angela Werneke. I have really come to love these cards, and they led me to Jamie Sams' excellent book, Dancing the Dream: The Seven Sacred Paths Of Human Transformation. I draw one of these cards every day to find out what I need to focus on for the day. That's the primary way I use Tarot cards.

I also do more elaborate readings if I have a decision to make and want some Divine feedback rather than simply listening to my mind. There are many good books out there and most decks come with their own book, as Medicine Cards and Daughters of the Moon do.

Lunaea's deck is very nice and she is a very experienced Witch. She has other things on her site, essays that are quite good and other links. She used to be the editor (and founder) of SageWoman magazine.

I wish that I could generate as much interest in my end of life topic as I have in this one. I originally thought this would be the one to die out once I satisfied general curiosity and that more people would be interested in discussing how to prepare for a spiritual death (and attend to the mundane matters as well). Really, far more than trying to stay alive longer, the end of life topic is the one I am most interested in now. The dilemma of when to say no to further medical interventions (and is that acceptable spiritually or could it be seen as suicide?), how to prepare your mind while surrounded by bustling doctors and nurses trying to keep you alive, and other such issues are what is mainly on my mind right now. It's hard to find anyone anywhere who wants to discuss these issues. I figured Vaisnavas, who are reminded that death may come at any moment, would be the one group willing to really talk about this subject. I may not have the exact same orientation spiritually, but the concept of preparing is the same and I really welcome some Vaisnava perspective.

Maybe after the holidays?

You can find the topic in the health section if you are interested.

QUOTE

wish that I could generate as much interest in my end of life topic as I have in this one. I originally thought this would be the one to die out once I satisfied general curiosity and that more people would be interested in discussing how to prepare for a spiritual death (and attend to the mundane matters as well). Really, far more than trying to stay alive longer, the end of life topic is the one I am most interested in now.

"As the clouds do not feel the powerful wind because they are being carried by it, the conditioned soul doesn't feel the passage of time.... The living entity, in whatever species of life he appears, finds a particular type of satisfaction in that species, and he is never averse to being situated in such a condition." (Bhagavatam, Canto 3)

deleted

Above, I spoke about my personal relationship with my Goddess(es), now I will weigh in on how I experience the energetic all pervasive aspect and my oneness in difference with Her.

There are pagans who don’t experience that there is a personal, conscious Deity and there are others who accept a whole pantheon of Them, and even pantheists. But many of us hold the view that we are one with Deity, and yet still individual without planning or thinking that we will lose our identity.

Although I often feel like I carried this notion from my Gaudiya roots, it was already present in some pagan circles. Certainly Starhawk’s writings about how the Goddess is immanent and we are all connected in the web of life is speaking to this sense that we are one and God (Goddess) is all pervading. Nature isn’t just God’s handiwork, but God. God is both the creator and the substance of creation, the destroyer and recycler and that which is destroyed or recycled, the devourer and the devoured.

That in mind, we see the wheel as something we are not trying to escape from, but to fully realize how we are a part of the cycles of life and be fully present in them. It is the sense that “self-realization” as Eastern traditions might call it, does not require “leaving” any place but rather being more fully present and aware of our true nature and the nature of the Web we are caught up in. As parts and parcels of Goddess, we are the weaver and we are the web. As we come to love Goddess, we more fully love ourselves and all others in the web. We can't separate those two processes and just love Goddess without loving others who are part of Her. Those loves, in my experience, feed on each other, so while my love of Her grows, do does my love of others, and as my love of them grows, so does my love of Her, in a blissful cycle. Again it is an experience of energy flowing among us, through us, within us, for we are the energy and the consciousness directing it.

As we work with energy in magic we experience this connection most directly. We feel our own energy field and the larger one. As we pray we accept that we are also responsible to the Universe, to the Mother, ourselves and others, as we all co-create our reality. We feel our connection as we pray.

We recognize that as part of the web, when we act we pull on all the other threads. We realize that our actions, words, even thoughts, are part of this web and affect others as well as ourselves. If we hurt another, we are hurt, not just by “karma” but by our connection. We can’t get away from ourselves; we can’t truly distance ourselves from suffering. We are the cause and we are the sufferer, and we sense that current pulling through this energetic web. If I wrestle with my shadow, it is because I know that I can be responsible for suffering if I don’t, and I cannot escape that which I bring into the web. I must be responsible to myself and others, and the sum of all others—Goddess.

If the world is a mess, it is our problem as much as anyone else’s. We don’t sit around waiting for someone else to do something, we take responsibility and get started working on it—if not every problem, than at least the ones we are able to really do something about with our personal expertise.

We recognize that Deity is always present—and how not—as the substance and consciousness of the Universe which includes ourselves.

It is from this point of view that I take my notion that many consciousnesses make up a larger consciousness, never an Unconsciousness. (If Advaitins agree with me then I have to revise my understanding of what they believe. I am happy to do so.)

So that is the pagan’s 2 cents’ worth on how bheda abheda might be experienced. I am sorry to add yet a third layer of words to describe this, on top of Gaudiya and Advaitin terminology. I hope this was somewhat clear as I've been pondering it reading evakurvan's topic and this just came pouring out.

Isn't it exciting that these ideas pop up in multiple places as multiple cultures experience this incredible phenomenon of connection and distinctness at the same time?

Blessed Be--

Tapati

Very nice, Tapati. Nice breakdown on the acintya bheda abheda tattva in the pagan traditions. I was wondering in your tradition if you have rascals who go around The Green Man and try to enjoy the Goddess as their own?

QUOTE(babu @ Feb 6 2005, 05:00 AM)

Very nice, Tapati. Nice breakdown on the acintya bheda abheda tattva in the pagan traditions. I was wondering in your tradition if you have rascals who go around The Green Man and try to enjoy the Goddess as their own?

I don't know about that, but there are pagan guys who always want to show you their athame.

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box to the right.

Suggestions for athame:
1. ethane
2. aether
3. Athene
4. ethene
5. ether
6. Atha
7. -therm
8. ahem
9. athenaeum
10. atheneum

QUOTE(babu @ Feb 6 2005, 08:54 AM)

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box to the right.

Suggestions for athame:
1. ethane
2. aether
3. Athene
4. ethene
5. ether
6. Atha
7. -therm
8. ahem
9. athenaeum
10. atheneum

See here.

In pagan circles, athame is often used as a double meaning of phallus in jokes such as mine. I figured the joke would be obvious in context. Maybe not.

QUOTE(Tapati @ Feb 6 2005, 06:29 PM)

In pagan circles, athame is often used as a double meaning of phallus in jokes such as mine. I figured the joke would be obvious in context. Maybe not.

It flew right past me

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