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Academic views, controversies, liberal views, eclectic discussions and so forth. Also, extended debates may be moved here. May contain discussion on views that a devotee may find objectionable.

To Jagat -

madhavachari - Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:30:54 +0530

I think it was very insensitive of you to make those things about Gadadhara Prana Dasa public. You are responsible for causing all this trouble. GP is not my enemy. I am not on a crusade against him at all. Those things were mentioned to show that he is not what some people think he is. I have left it behind. It is so embarrassing to everybody. Several persons know whatīs happened. Nothing to get upset about now, whatīs done is done. Whatever happened...maybe not much at all...I donīt know really.

I also find it very disgusting to know that you used to be a child abuser in "gurukula". Have you been punished for this? Somebody should beat YOU up for what you have done. You make me sick...
Knowing this, I am not surprised if a person like you supports other persons who abuse children.
DharmaChakra - Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:21:23 +0530
FYI, I've reported this thread, and hopefully it will be deleted. Again, you need evidence to back up alligations, not just make them in order to slander someone. GD isn't the place for this kind of posting.

madhavachari-ji, I wish you a lot of luck in your pursuit of the Absolute Truth.
Madhava - Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:29:48 +0530
You know folks, I'm real happy to log on for the first time in Vraja and read this as the first thread. This will be deleted real soon. People who have nothing better to do but gossip on others' bad qualities and whatever should buzz away to some other place. Thank you.
Jagat - Thu, 02 Dec 2004 19:37:36 +0530
Dear Members,

Madhavachari is one step from being banned. It would have been easy to defuse this situation by a little civil behavior. Let me say this, Madhavachariji, you are angry because you think I made you look bad. I am sorry, but you made yourself look bad.

The fact is that both Madhava and I have known Madhavachari from the Internet for several years and we know his issues. The moderators exchanged correspondence about him from the very beginning in expectation of problems.

At any rate, what has happened has happened. It seems quite clear that Madhavachari has issues with Gadadhar Pran and was quite eager for the opportunity to share with the world. That has happened, and Madhavachari cannot blame anyone but himself if these things have not been appreciated.

I think that the solution is, rather than blaming others, to make an apology and leave it at that. These things come out, and it is just as well that they do. Gadadhar has had his say, and if anyone wants to follow up on this, they now know what the complaints are.


As to Jiva or any other disciples who are troubled by Madhavachari's accusations or general behavior, I am sorry, but you can neither kill all the messengers nor poke out your eyes. Sometimes such accusations are true, sometimes they are false. Dealing with unpleasant information is part of the challenge of having a guru, a religion, or any ideals whatsoever. Even the purest of the pure are accused or vilified, so you are going to have to learn how to deal with it.

The way to deal with it is to keep your focus on what is of value and what is not. Then, even in the worst case scenario where all the worst things that you have heard are true, there is the fact that you have still received something of eternal value. No one refuses a diamond even if it comes out of a sewer. Shraddha is a delicate thing, but if it is of value to you, hold on to it and hold on to its source.

Cultivate sympathy for the disillusioned and be charitable to both them AND to your guru. After all, you don't yet know where your journey is taking you.


Now, as to Puranjan's accusation, which Madhavachari has so eagerly echoed. This all comes out of a personal confession I made to Nirmal Chandra when he created the VOICE website for abused Gurukulis. I have published this on my own website along with Nirmal's comments. Even Darwin on Istagosthi, despite his patent dislike for me, admits that this is still the ONLY letter of its sort: a public apology to Gurukula children for any inadequacies as a Gurukula teacher.

You may know that I was one of the first teachers in Iskcon schools at Dallas, New Vrindavan and Mayapur. I left Iskcon in 1979, before most of the scandals broke.
At any rate, you can read about it here: My role as a Gurukula teacher in the 1970's.

But I should tell you this: that there are no third person accounts by anyone that I know of accusing me of any wrongdoing. As a matter of fact, I tried to contact the students I had and was pleased to find those I could contact had no negative memories. As a matter of fact, one of my Bengali students who came to Canada came to see me, and treated me with respect and gratitude, which I found very moving.


I have friends on this board who have asked me why I reveal so much of myself. Indeed, I wanted to write something about this on the "God and Man" thread. But since the issue has come up again, let me briefly state my position here: I have been a witness to this whole Guru business and all the troubles that surround it since 1977 when I first participated in the coronation of Prabhupada's successors, playing a role as one of their main cheerleaders. (Anyone still remember "Jai jai gurudeva egaro mahajana"?)

I think that the crux of the problem is the intersection of the ideal and the real. Krishna reveals something ideal to one human being in this world through another individual human being that creates faith in him. Faith is a sense of meaning and purpose.

This "faith" is a delicate creature that is constantly being challenged by the realities of this world. And so the very existence of God is challenged by the pain and suffering we experience, etc., etc. I need not give a litany of the challenges to faith, but certainly the imperfections of God's devotees is one of the highest on the list. How can we believe in God if those who claim that such belief is the basis of human perfection are themselves so imperfect?

I think that this is the cause of so many of the problems in Krishna consciousness today--and Puranjan and Madhavachari are just two examples of people who can't get their head around it. Their solution is to somehow put barricades around one sacrosanct ideal while blowing up into demoniac proportions the flaws in everyone else.

As I see it, I am by nature and destiny a guru (= teacher), but I am also a flawed human being. Why should I make a secret of the challenges I have had to face in my struggle to attain my Swamini's unattainable lotus feet? And why should I think that there will not be more challenges? Indeed, why should my experiences not be an integral part of my teaching to anyone who ever thinks that I could be a model or inspiration for spiritual life?

This is why, for instance, I take Satsvarupa's confessions to be more worthwhile than a million hagiographies. Better one of Satsvarupa's disciples loves and serves him simply because he considers him a flawed and yet superior sadhaka, with the touch of his guru's love upon him, than to worship a false idea ("idol") of a robotic "perfect man."

The institutional guru is a a paper construct, not a flesh and blood human being. This idea may be the gift of humanism to Vaishnava religion, but I personally feel strongly that the humanistic element is a part of the Vaishnava religion from its very beginnings--fighting against the dehumanizing elements of both Hindu and Muslim religious and social forces. Now, unfortunately, we tend to bury those humanistic elements under a bushel-load of superimposed ideals. This is what I have called the fear of the kanishtha adhikari.

I have been standing the "Guru is God" dogma on its head for years now. If God is a Man (Adi-puruSam), then why should the guru be anything more? Of course, I don't say this in contradiction to the scriptural statements, but I am asking people to look at both sides of the equation: Guru is both God and Man. So grant unto the human aspect what is human, and unto the divine aspect what is divine. The gift of the guru is hope and faith, as well as the spiritual path by which meaning comes into our lives. Is this not enough divinity? Why do we need his stool to smell like roses?

At any rate, I am not being inundated with calls from prospective disciples, and it is just as well. Nobody who does approach me will be able to say, "I did not know what I was getting into." Gaur Kishor Dasji stayed in an old outhouse; I will stay in the outhouse of my past and present humanity.
jijaji - Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:31:00 +0530

What the hell is wrong with you ..huh?

I was very happy to see that you had come here and was hoping for some nice contributions from you, but you act like an out of control angry teenager, full of hate and bitterness it seems.

Your accusations against Jagat are totally unfounded and without merit.

And from a totally objective point of view YOU started this whole thing about GP and his behaviour and it escalated from there, don't kid yourself, we have all witnessed it

You act like we did years ago on that other forum and have a inmature attitude about your having 'Found' the one and only 'TRUTH'. Your behaviour is embarressing not only to yourself but for your lineage you now belong to.

Your behaviour here shows for certain that spiritual realization is a much bigger thing than JUST taking diksha into a certain line my friend and going around acting like you know it all and acting like anyone else who thinks differently is 'out of the loop'!

You need to go off and practice some basic Yamas and Niyamas as outlined in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras and also learn some manners pal.


Jagat - Thu, 02 Dec 2004 21:47:07 +0530
OK, much as I appreciate Bangli's support, I think that this thread does not hold much promise. So I am closing it right now.

Madhavachari, you are on warning. If you want to contribute meaningfully and positively to this forum, then please do so. If not, then kindly find another place that is more suitable to your mood.

I would hope that you communicate with Gaura Keshava. I think that he would make a good mentor for you. He. like you, has gone through Iskcon and taken initiation in Sri Sampradaya.

I doubt that there is anyone in this forum that does not hold him in the highest regard. He is learned in his own tradition and has received considerable mercy from his acharyas. He is, if not siddha in archan, close to it. And most of all, despite any disagreements he may have with anyone on theological issues, he consistently acts with the gentlemanliness that we would expect of a Vaishnava.

I believe that you could profit from his association.

Keshavaji, I hope you don't mind me asking you, but please give Madhavachari generously of your blessings.

Your servant,

Jagadananda Das.