Gadadhar Pran - Character issues

Much as such issues are distasteful to us, the moderators have decided to allow this discussion to continue in a separate thread. This is so that character issues and theological ones are kept separately, even though linking the two is always a temptation.

So if Madhvachari wants to continue discussing Nagara-bhava, he should do so in the other thread. This is strictly for questions of "fraud."

But we will be watching for gratuitous accusations and signs of personal vendetta.

Jagat



OH, PLEASE! Don´t!

I know why you said that

with respect,

Yes , really.

You are angry with me because , in my answer on your PM ,I said that I don't care for the Absolute of the Vedas and the Upanisads.
Such the Absolute is distant and abstract for me and therefore it's not the subject of my interest .

But you blocked your Inbox for receiving my message and explanation of my statement . Then , you rush on this Topic and post sarcastic words .

What can I say about your statement regarding my Prabhu but-shame on you.
Such words are not Vaisnava-vani at all . I wonder what your Guru would say regarding your behaviour to blame Vaisnava like Gadahara Prana Prabhu ji ?
Many devotees on this Forum will be hurt with your words . Did you think about that ?

May be moderators can do something with the mebers which mind is filled with hate ?

Sorry, but I have no hate in my heart jiva. I just don´t think what you are writing about has anything to do with Reality or Vaishnavism at all! It is merely sensualism/eroticism. I blocked you from sending messages to me because I didn´t want to discuss anymore. But now I need to clarify myself to you. Because you don´t seem to understand my intentions. And I am warning you about Gadadhara Prana, he is not what you think he is.
Your guru is fraud as well as his teachings. I just don´t want you get more cheated than you already are. Become a real vaishnava instead of sinking into the slime of nadiya-nagari-vada. It is just fantasy, not reality my friend.

There aren´t two Gods, jiva dasa, if you think so. The Absolute as "described" in the Vedas and the Upanishads is the only reality there is.

You should be ashamed offending the Veda and Upanishads. Who do you think you are to make judgements like that. It is obviously only due to ignorance about proper Vaishnavism, which always is in harmony with Vedic and Upanishadic knowledge.

Gora´s "rasa squirting",etc. on the nadiya-nagaris is obviously what you and your guru are more interested in thinking about.

Look look, the genie is out of the bottle. I was kinda waiting, with concern.

Unfortunately the moderators don't have any buttons for removing the varieties of anartha from the heart of any participant. The moderators also do not go out of their way to censore critique, provided that it is presented in a dispassionate manner. The moderators have no rights to interfere in members' private correspondence unless illegal activities are implicitly reported. Public critique may be subject to moderation if it is evidently presented with malice or with evident disregard to facts. The same applies for defence and the subsequent possible verbal assassination of the critic.

So let's all try to not explode over this. If you need to discuss Gadadhar Prana or any other guru, contemporary or otherwise, please refrain from accusations unless you can present solid facts, and please also refrain from labeling each other as hateful offenders and so forth.

OK, I am sorry jiva and Madhava. But I know what I know.

I haven't seen any sarcastic words in this topic, not as of yet anyway, and hopefully I won't be seeing any either. As you may know, Madhavachari was once a follower of your guru, and he was that for longer than you have currently been, subsequently being more exposed to varieties of information about him. Therefore his perspective may substantially differ from yours.

Whatever turns this discussion takes, let us note that there are no "sacred cows" here, no-one is exempt from becoming a possible subject of critique, if indeed the critique is well founded and is presented in a polite manner. If we permit this in the case of IGM, we must permit it across the board.

That isn't to say I would particularly encourage this line of action.

As I wrote this, I evidently missed the following:


This isn't the kind of rhetoric that is constructive for anyone. If someone has specific complaints based on his own experiences or studies, then feel free to share, but condemnations such as the one above are not too welcome.

But it is still true. And you know it! Although, I am not saying that he is deceiving others knowingly. He is just very confused and weird.

I have nothing against ganja myself, but it is hardly proper for a self-proclaimed guru to take any such substances. But I am sure that he finds it very enjoyable to smoke some pot and then get into meditation on amorous pastimes with Gauranga. I wouldn´t call it spiritual or vaishnavam though!

Can you comment on what this "rasa squirting" is..?
Not that I cannot imagine , but wanted to know if this is some divine tantrika prasad....distributed to the nadiya-nagaris?

I wanted to comment on that. I did not find that in anything in the thread that this responds to so it appears to be either a very bad translation of something, or a deliberate attempt at vulgarity.

At any rate, perhaps we could try to keep the two issues separate--the other thread for Nagara-vada, this one for Gadadhar Pran's "character issues" if anyone feels that it merits discussion.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Just my .02 cents here... I agree with Madhava that there are no sacred cows here however there needs to be some rules of engagement when discussing others. It is one thing to look at an issue, philosophical or moral, and quiet another to throw out accusations and harsh words.

In this case if you feel that what Gadadhara Pran is doing or preaching is “off” simply state what he does or preaches which is incorrect. Even if you think you know the motivation which moves one it should be left unsaid as we can’t really claim to know with complete certainty what motivates another.

So please leave the innuendo’s and names behind and simply state the issues out as such:

Devotee 1 states this however this is why such is incorrect.
Devotee 1 does this and this is why doing such is incorrect.

Obviously you need to be very specific especially with what are perceived as character issues because those can be the most painful to discuss but as Madhava stated it should be done in a dispassionate manner.

For example statements such as “But it is still true. And you know it! Although, I am not saying that he is deceiving others knowingly. He is just very confused and weird.” Or “ OK, I am sorry jiva and Madhava. But I know what I know. ” mean nothing to anyone here but you. So elaborate on what you are saying.

More so you stated “Gora´s "rasa squirting",etc. on the nadiya-nagaris is obviously what you and your guru are more interested in thinking about.“… now do you really think you have painted a clear and concise picture here? All you did is leave much open to interpretation.

So again if you feel something he is preaching is “off” simply state what he does or preaches which is incorrect.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I agree with Rasaraja dasa here...

This forum is not like 'others' out there that allows 'bashing' and all that name calling stuff and endless character assasination.
We just don't want or need it, 'Been There Done That'.
We want a forum where we can openly discuss controversy without all the pettiness and bitterness.
So if there are matters that are unscruplous about Gurus and there camps, we are big boys and girls and can handle the straight sauce (most of us have been around the block a time or two).
If you disagree don't attack the person who differs with what you know..that is too easy. But if you have information that is accurate and valuble that can help seekers avoid fraud, please bring that forward.

namaskar,

bangli

Madhavanandadasji,

You probably know more than me about this stuff. All the respected devotees (Goswamis, people belonging to the traditional parivaras, etc.) I met in Nabadwip Dham the last time had a lot to say about GP, and it wasn´t much positive. They just shook their heads and said that there are a lot of problems...I also met a person who was initiated by GP but later rejected him for different good reasons he told me about. Personally, I would not recommend anybody to take initiation from him. Those who don´t care about my words of caution might find out later on what is what.

That´s all I had to say about GP.

MRD

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

If you refuse to give substantial background and proof of your many claims then you shouldn't have made them in the first place. I would say the topic itself should be removed if all you will offer is a bit of name calling and smiley faces hinting that you know why GP is "off" but won't reveal.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I've also heard things along these lines from various sources, and I believe if one asked around, what you say above would not be a rare thing to hear around Navadvip. However I really never bothered looking into it further, as the issue didn't cross my path of its own accord and as I am not personally concerned with Gauranagari-moods, nor do I know any of Gadadhar's disciples that well.

I understand you may not be into delving into details here. However since the genie is out of the bottle, and since you already threw in some bits of information, why not make a clean case out of it and fill in the facts. I'm sure you have some. If for no other reason, at least entertain Rasaraja.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vasnava.

I am not interested in being entertained and I really have no interest in the subject. My point is simply that you cannot make irresponsible comments. If you have something that you feel needs to be stated then simply do so in a responsible manner by addressing your point with substantial background and proof; otherwise leave it alone.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I meant entertain in the sense of his doing what you ask of him.

I think Dhyanakunda's perceptive comment on another thread applies here also, and in general when dealing with issues of Vaishnava aparadh.

To keep in mind that a stranger may not be the kind of person [a single one of his] actions [may] indicate, would perhaps require a realization that this stranger is a whole universe, a person as complex as our parents, mates or children.

At the same time, Braja's contribution on Indian sexuality reminds us of the peculiarity of sexual behavior in general. I think that the interface between religion and sexuality is a very complex field, and our own highly sexual (or romantic, if you prefer) religious symbolism and imagery should give us pause when we contrast it with Indian sexual realities. But that is probably a discussion that belongs on that thread.

That is what you think.

Things don´t always turn out the way you want Rasaraja dasa...

If that is the best you can do, Madhavachari, then this thread will be closed and filed away.

Yeah, the book he stole from my father-in-law... That is where he gets most of the stuff from for his new book...

yikes!

It´s a mess...This is what I know...no offence intended...he smoked ganja with a female disciple and tried to make her have sex with him (sahajiya sadhana?) , which she refused. He divorced his wife, then lived on the same property as her, first with one girlfriend, then another, which he married. Haven´t heard the latest news, don´t know what goes on now.

He is a liar, something I found out after a while. For example, he said that he translated a book which Jagadananda Dasaji actually translated!

Then there are some darker and more disgusting things which I don´t want to tell here, they´re just too terrible!

He smokes ganja regularly, which isn´t a big deal I think, unless one claims to be a Guru!

I have no proof of any of this, they are things I heard from first-hand witnesses though.

He might have become better recently, I honestly don´t know.

In the beginning I thought he was good and inspiring, but later on I freaked out because of the nadiya-nagari stuff and his divorce, girlfriends, ganja-smoking, etc. I didn´t think he was fit to be a Guru. I prefer to learn from somebody who is free from material desires and who has realization of the Absolute. A proper Guru.

Now that feels cathartic, doesn't it?

How now?

He is gone to the dark side then...

People should be given the benefit of the doubt, IMO.

Whenever I fall down, I always take my time getting back up because I always find so many fun things to do down there.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Yes, I am well aware that things don't always turn out the way I want. Moving forward I will know better than expect maturity and responsibility from you when you are discussing something so close to you.

I also now understand, based on your last post, what has disturbed you about GP. If these things are true then it is devastating to all of those who put their trust and faith into him. My point was simply that if you are going to make statements: make them complete. At least at that point there seems to be validity behind your feelings and statements as opposed to someone just making brash statements.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Before this gets totally off the handle, madhavachari-ji, outrageous claims require outrageous evidence. (to paraphrase a bit...)

If you are planning on posting some criticism, I would suggest you stick to the format of posting the action/belief of the person, then scriptural evidence countermanding the action or belief. If the evidence falls within the Gaudiya siddhanta, so much the better for this community. Hints, alligations & slander do not fly at this site.

Most of this community has no more than an academic interest in Gadadhar Pran, and to be honest, for some of us our first introduction has been Jagat's article on him. Needless to say, your viewpoint is 180 degrees off from Jagat's.

Let's take a look at one of your claims:This comes across as an inflammatory remark, and while it seems to have substance, no real information is given. Instead, tell us what book he made the claim about, when he made the claim, and to whom he made the claim. As Madhavaji has said, there are no sacred cows here, so you are free to post what you wish, but you must back up your claims with evidence. I think you would find this community more than ready to debate the various claims and evidence you provide, more than we would be offended by you making them

Very open approaching Mina. However, one have to consider that others might not feel so congruent to deal with it directly and might find unpleasant to have a Guru that smokes (if that is the case, of course). As well as the decisions one may have to make in order to find his genuine Guru.

I prefer to respect both emotional feelings and not have to judge the devotional behavior of a practitioner, regardless of how bizarre it maybe.

Yeah , and the Planet Earth is flat .

You got the playground from moderators for your impossible mission .
Keep it there , please.Thanks.

You don´t know me, you have no idea what I was referring to. I am not hostile or anything. I just think it´s a shame that you are being cheated. I will mail all the details you might need to know about GP. Then you will understand, I hope!

"This comes across as an inflammatory remark, and while it seems to have substance, no real information is given. Instead, tell us what book he made the claim about, when he made the claim, and to whom he made the claim."

That was an easy question! It was Hamsaduta, by Rupa Gowami. I was going to buy a copy of the book from GP. I asked him if it was his translation. He said yes. Then he tore out one page and threw it into the bushes. At the time I didn´t think why he did it though, because I expected him to be honest of course. When I saw another copy of the book later on, I saw "Translated by Jagadananda Dasa"!

Rasaraja dasa,

I just didn´t want to get into discussing these things at the time. But since several persons want to hear about it more in detail, ok!

I wasn´t being unfriendly to you, I have nothing against you, I don´t even know you. But I was a bit turned off by your way of addressing me - I admit. There are always problems with communicating with others on forums. Sometimes you get the wrong idea about others, by misinterpreting their words. You wrote in an aggressive way, as if demanding that I must tell everything. But I don´t...that is the point I was making to you.

Reading this topic I tried to remember the name of a guru who I have not heard anything "terrible" or "suspicious" about from enemies, rivals or ex-disciples. After a while I gave up trying. Only the legendary saints of the past are like this, and why? Because they are not alive anymore. If Rupa Goswami was alive now, I am sure many would say he is either fallen, sahajiya or bogus. Or all of them.

Fortunately, on every altar there are some "legendary" or mythological persons who people can think of as "spotless saints" so that we can keep the sweet pink bubble of illusion. As long as we place our faith and trust outside, as long as we think that our salvation depends on some elderly gentleman - or young man - sitting somewhere in Asia, we can always count on disillusioning experiences.

Our salvation depends on our own effort and sincerity. Everything else is secondary. Look, some persons consider GP fallen, and gave him up. At the same time there is our Jiva and many others, who are doing their bhajan very happily under his guidance. So what now? Is he fallen or a saint? Some consider him a person to be avoided, while some experience him as a constant source of blessings.

This is what evil Mayavadi rascals call "emptiness". Things have no inherent qualities, they become good or bad according to our view, we project our own mind upon the outside world, persons etc. So this is how GP - and everyone else - can be an enemy and a saint at the same time.

The only mistake gurus make very often is to allow people think that their salvation will depend on their mercy. We had many discussions on "who is bona fide". Well, according to my subjective view, a guru is bona fide when he or she trains the disciples to become independent, free and happy persons, not some frustrated, bitter "losers" who explain their weakness as "being totally dependent on guruji's mercy".

Better not underestimate anyone's mission. Remember the spider (or ant, squrirel, or whatever).

"Srila Bhaktiraksaka Sridhara Maharaja: "Why do you go and mix with the sahajiyas?!"
Srila Krishnadas Babaji Maharaja: "I like their tunes..." "

That is funny!

Jai Sri Krishna!

I received this message from a (former?) disciple of Gadadhara Prana dasa:

"Hi, Madhavachari, pranam.

Well as you probably know GPD and myself fell out back in 98, but I began to regret my own arrogance despite his misconduct. Lately I have been in correspondance with him and he seems much more settled with his wife who he gets on well with. He also said he no longer indulges in ganja. I don't think he was ever a serious toker. You know a true ganja smoker smokes all the time, and I don't think he was ever into that.

Anyway your post about him put me into a state of shock and I need to give it consideration. If he has indeed got over those misdemeanours then it's a shame that you had to bring them up, after all he is not a sanyasi and has made no vow of celibacy.

I hope all's well with you. O yes, do you have that Upadesamrta that was my first ever completed translation? I have lost my original and would love to go through it again and revise it and so forth.

Also do you have Sri Ramanuja's Gita Bhasya? There was a wonderful translation of it published by the Ramakrishna Mission. I used to have it and thought it was fantastic.

Your servant,
Madanmohan das

By the way you can post this message if you like"

Just to emphasise the point I made above; if a sannyasi or vairagi had such charges laid against them, they might be answerable for it, but a householder or anyone who has not made any vow of celibacy- what is the point of mentioning some indiscretion or other?

As for Nagari bhava upasana, essentially it's the same as any upasana, only the VisayAlaman is Gaura kishora, and the AsrayAlamban are the Nadiya Nagari's, what's the problem! All these topics are not within the range of tarka. Perhaps one might propose that such upasana is incompatable with Manjari bhava upasana, and I tend to that opinion, no problem just practice one or the other in accordance with ones aquired taste. But devotees should be able to relish according to their desire.

When I made known my preferance to the idea of cultivating the kathA of Vrajalila and Gauralila according to the Gutika and Dhyanacandra's paddhati Gadadhara pran das advised me to immerse myself in the same. He did not insist or suggest otherwise.

I heard that Siddha Caitanya das had at least one sisya in Vraja who was a manjari bhava upasaka. That's not a comparison, but it presents the idea that a guru might have a differant bhava to a sisya.

Moreover, if Gadadhara pran das has had to suffer such indignity, it's probably due to accepting fools like me who just cary misfortune with them where ever they go.

Once again, I remind everyone of Dhyanakunda's wise words: Every human being is a universe, with complex motivations, aspirations, experiences, needs, etc.

We often hear about "svarupa-laksana" and "tatastha-laksana." For the Vaishnava, the svarupa-laksana is to be fully surrendered to Krishna. The tatastha laksana are the various good qualities.

Now for karmis or jnanis, the tatastha laksana are more directly connected to their sadhana itself. In bhakti, the central point, however, is commitment to Krishna. This is why it is said, "dhAvan nimIlya vA netre na patet na skhaled iha." So-called falldown for a devotee is never absolute.

From this point of view, I have absolutely no problem at all in judging Gadadhar Pran as a true, unique and even important bhakta of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Gadadhar Pandit. On his behalf, I apologize if he has misbehaved in the past, as much as I apologize for my own misdoings. But I challenge anyone to show me another person who has shaped his life so entirely around bhakti as he, without compromising his own independent and individual spirit. Respect from afar if need be, but a modicum of respect is de mise

The issue is obviously complex, and one thing I have learned in the past is not to undervalue the feelings of devotees who have been “disappointed in love.” So even though the disappointed sometimes behave badly, it should be recognized as a kind of vyabhichari bhava in the greater ocean of their search for God. It is often hard to see things in this way, as misery likes nothing better than company, and the miserable are usually quite remarkably successful in finding people ready to help them increase their fund of misery.

Yesterday, I was spinning TV channels and somehow a theme repeated—on the university channel, on another educational channel—that of transcendence, and the human, religious need for us to be able to see our lives as somehow fitting into a cosmic scheme.

The guru is an agent of this integration with transcendence. Naturally, conflict between the ideal and the real is constantly going on, but trust in God’s revelation means keeping an open eye toward the meaning of those who have appeared to us in our lives as gurus.

Let me explain that a little more: We try to intellectually “construct” a guru in our own mind, but ultimately the appearance of guru in our lives is something that functions on a subconscious level. Jung called the phenomenon archetypal possession. (Stop me if you’ve heard this before.) This means that it is pre-intellectual. It is like falling in love—we may fall in love with the “wrong” person, but there is something deeply and spiritually significant about the experience itself. And just as we go on loving even the girls or boys we never won, or lost, or were hurt by, and assimilate them into our complex psyches, so too all our gurus continue to find a place in our “composite guru,” who is none other than God Himself.

It’s not easy being a guru (as the guru who takes himself too seriously, forgetting that he is nothing more than a projection of his disciple), nor is it easy being a disciple. May we all learn our respective arts.

MC was a disciple of Gadadhar Prana once, for several years if memory serves. So he certainly has a view of the situation, you cannot discount him just because he says something unpalatable. Or, you can, but that isn't very reasonable.

Or worse, knowingly manipulates the disciple, taking advantage of his or her psychological vulnerability.

Guru and disciple are actually engaged in a sort of dance arranged by Yogamaya. The guru does not necessarily know all the effects of all his words and all his actions on the psyche of the disciple.

The bureaucratic guru enters into a kind of legalistic contract with the disciple: I will behave according to the "institutional guidelines" and I will ask you to do the same. It is like an arranged marriage, and usually conducted best at a distance. Who is the lucky disciple who actually learns at the feet of a guru in a personal intimate manner?

The role of Yogamaya is still there, but her functioning is somewhat hampered by the vidhi. When some constructed institutional norm is contravened, then the disciple's faith is broken and he feels that the contract is broken. If the contract is one of love, it is never broken, and indeed, in view of the fact that no guru-disciple relationship is entirely devoid of love, no guru-disciple relationship is ever truly broken--for all the anathemas and returned beads or Giridhari shilas.

Like I said, the guru is internalized and becomes part of the composite samashti guru, who is Krishna himself. It takes a great deal of maturity on the part of the disciple to see this plot.

Dear Madhavachari,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I am sorry if I came off aggressive s it wasn’t my intention. My intention was to stress that if you are going to put the reputation and name of someone at risk, especially in this case where disciples are involved, then there is a responsibility in doing so. The responsibility, in my humble opinion, is to state what you know with the relevant background.

Personally I agree with your tact to do it through personal message as opposed to over a board. Something that states "I have serious concern over the status of Devotee X. If you would like to hear more PM me" would allow one to warn others that they have experienced something of concern while keeping it somewhat private. So again I apologize for coming off as aggressive.

-- On another note, and maybe in another thread, I don’t know that I grasp why the moral activities of one who accepts disciples is only a major issue if they have taken vows as a sannyasi or vairagi. It would seem, and I admit I may be wrong here, that the moral makeup and the actions one performs while acting as a representative in parampara is of a paramount importance regardless. This isn’t to say that the individual must be perfect but that there is a level of maturity and being settled in both their material and spiritual life is important. It is one thing to make mistake and another to depart from something intentionally. In acting as Guru one isn’t professing to be perfect yet there is the gravity that one can act as Guru due to their faith and maturity in what they have been given.

If one is still trying to find their way then it would seem that accepting disciples is risky for all involved. This isn’t to diminish ones good qualities or level of advancement there should be gravity in this regard because you are acting as a representative of ones parampara and ones object of affection.

I recognize that I may be a bit off line here as I struggle to reconcile what I have learned and experienced in respects to Guru tattva so please forgive me.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

If I hadn´t take initiation in Srivaishnavism, there´s one Gaudiya Vaishnava I would have taken mantra-diksha from. Sri Kishor Ray Goswami. I received Harinama (Hare Krishna mantra) from him in Nabadwip Dham 2002. He is a very deeply realized soul, respected by all. He stays at his ashram and performs puja and meditation all the time.

A concerned member has written and noted that the above does not make any sense at all, requesting that you clarify this statement. Who is the father in law you speak of, what is the new book, and what has been stolen?

Edit: I see that MC has now explained it here. I hope that is satisfactory.

Gadadhar Pran wrote me and asked me to post this here.



Dear Jagat, Please send this reply to whomever it may concern,

I am shocked about what Premananda has said about me! I never had an argument or exchanged any bad feelings with him ---so his hitting me so strongly "below the belt" comes as a great surprise! It really hurts; it brings tears to my eyes! How can he call me a "fraud"? I have been performing very intense sadhana here on the Ganga’s banks in Mayapura for more than 25 years—at some spells chanting even three lakhs a day. Premananda has never lived with me. He has only visited me shortly on a few occasions, so who is he to make such a cruel judgment? He does not know what is actually going on.

I have no attraction for smoking pot. I haven't done it in years. This is not a part of my life.

I am not a child molester. The thought of doing this makes my stomach turn sick. For 23 years I was married to a very nasty woman who was not a devotee and who would constantly torture me. During this period I had some romantic affairs. Because my samsara was so hellish then—who can blame me? I’m only human.

I have been happily married now to a very devoted and chaste Bengali brahmin kanya. We both are executing Gaura and Gadadhara’s nitya seva together very smoothly. I think that after 23 years of torture it was Gaura and Gadadhar’s desire that I receive my ideal match to assist in their seva puja. For this reason my record is presently very good.

I’m very sad that Premananda has such a very sick and ugly opinion about Nadiya nagari bhava. The upasana is both bonafide and beautiful. Why has he made such an aparadha to condemn such a beautiful thing? I’m still praying to Gauranga for his welfare.

Yours humbly,

Gadadhar pran.



I have to say that Madhavachari made the child molestation accusation in the private letter that I transmitted to Gadadhar, which explains why he answers that point here.

Let me add that though I have not seen Gadadhar in many years, I can bear witness to the hellish marriage that he went through with his wife Sathi. Though they had three beautiful children, she had absolutely no sympathy for Gadadhar's devotional aspirations and always felt seriously cheated by getting an American husband and no American life.

As to pot smoking, I went through a period in India where I took up smoking pot. I shared one or two occasions with Gadadhar, but he did not care for its effects and severely criticized me for doing it. Indeed, I think he blamed it for my leaving India. So I find it hard to believe that he would have ever taken it up as a serious habit.

As to accusations of child abuse. These are the most difficult to confirm and the easiest to throw around. The damage that false accusations of this sort can wreak is notorious. Madhavachari thus did not post them publicly on this thread, but how can any of us make a judgment based on one man's accusation and another's denial? The fact that Madhavachari had only limited contact with Gadadhar and based his judgment on some public displays of affection make me seriously doubt the well-foundedness of his accusation.

Finally, I have heard from people who have seen Gadadhar in his present family situation, as well as from him, that his present situation is indeed everything he wished for when he first married Sathi.

But I am Gadadhar's friend and I shall give him the benefit of the doubt. May he ever prosper in the Lord's service. Jai Gaur Gadadhar!

Sounds sober to me; I like his writings and fine paintings.

Thank you Jagat for posting Gadadhar Pran's response. I think it is very important for a number of reasons. First off, it puts the dehumanizing attacks against him into perspective in the sense that it shows that he is a very caring and human person.

I know people grow and what was once sacred to them becomes less so as they find their place in devotional life. Still, I find it hard to understand in general why sadhakas who move from one guru or lineage to another find a need to demonize the person or lineage they leave behind. We are really called to see the good in others and look at our own faults as we try to over come them and improve ourselves in relation to our dedication and serving attitude.

I know this analogy doesn't fit exactly but here goes anyway - when someone is in a committed relationship that fails for whatever reason sometimes they become so bitter about the person and their feelings are so hurt over their loss that they demonize that person and they speak ill of the person claiming that all who venture to enter into relations with this person will have a similar experience, or at least it will end in a similarly bitter fashion. Obviously this is not true - relationships are between people and each pairing will be unique. Also, people grow and change over time. If we don't allow for that then we must accept for ourselves the plight that whatever faults we have now, whatever character flaws we exhibit will forever remain with us. This is a very pessimistic outlook on life and also one which is obviously incorrect and based on hurt feelings rather than careful analysis.

Even though I disagree with Gadadhar Pran that Nadiya Nagari bhava is bonafide - I respect him and I acknowledge his obvious spirituality and dedication.

Thanks again Jagat,

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

Before you guys go on to demonize ME! Read this.

Let me just clarify that I never saw any of the alleged child abuse/incest. That is what I have heard from two independent sources. It was not meant to be public information.
I never said that these things occurred. And it was not nice of you Jagat to make it seem as if I am saying that he abused his daughters. I just said that this is what I have heard from different persons. And, would you expect him to say, if it is true, that he did abuse anybody? Of course not.
And, the person who told me these things actually LIVED with Gadadhara Prana and spent a lot of time with him and therefore knows more about the things that I never even heard of before.
Later on I heard the same thing about incest from another person who has no connection with the other devotee.

I think it is extremely ugly and hostile to spread this information to Gadadhara Prana and then exposing it in public, just to make me look bad. Because that is what you want to do Jagat.
Some things did happen which I thought were weird, in connection with his daughters. But that doesn´t count as child abuse or incest. But after hearing that his daughters were afraid to be alone with him due to alleged abuse, I thought that the things I had seen with my own eyes became more understandable.
I never said "Gadadhara Prana had sex with his daughters". I am just saying that I have heard from two other persons that incest occurred. If it is true or not I just don´t know for sure. That is all.

I just don´t think it makes sense that two independent source say that those things allegedly happened if nothing at all happened. Why do these things come up? Is there some truth in the accusations or not? I guess we will never know for sure. But, no smoke without fire.

No one's demonizing you. Excuse me if I misrepresented your statements. (But see how easy it is for things to get confused?)

It is always troublesome to hear accusations leveled against a friend. No one can blame you for losing your faith in someone. Faith cannot be forced, and guru-bhakti is a very difficult discipline. We are happy that you have found faith somewhere else and hope that you will find positive, like-minded association with people of your own line.

On the other hand, I still think that you should remember the positive that you got out of your relationship with Gadadhar. I find it rather tragic that you have no faith in Mahaprabhu, what with a Nabadwip-vasi wife and all. But that's none of my affair. Like Gadadhar, I only wish you the best.

Just to clarify, I merely sent the letter you had written and asked him to respond. Naturally he would respond in the way he did. I admitted as much above: an accusation and a denial to not make a case. If someone cares enough to find out, he should go and ask Gadadhar's daughters. And even then, what are we to make of it?

I think you have something against me Jagat, otherwise why are you doing like this? You know as much as I that this information was brought forth because Minakatena Ramadasa was concerned about the darker secrets that I had heard about. Then I told him about what I have heard. Now I find out that you have contacted GP saying that I am accusing of child abuse. It is wrong. You seem to be a very disturbed person Jagat. This is the last time I ever write anything to you. Ok, to be lower than a blade of grass - but SLIME?

You think it is sad that I don´t believe in Nimai Mishra being an avatara of Lord Krishna? It just shows that I know something. Lord Narayana is the source of avataras in the first place, not Lord Krishna.
Anyway, I don´t need your association as you seem to believe Jagat. In fact, it makes me feel sick. That is why I am leaving this forum right now and I am never coming back.
Sometimes I wish that I would have taken my brother-in-law´s advice: "Never associate with Gaudiyas..."

I neither added nor subtracted anything from what you yourself wrote. Unfortunately, I cannot access that letter at this time or I would post it here. I did not post it earlier because you withheld those accusations on this forum. However, what am I to do? I sent it to Gadadhar to

(a) let him know that people are saying such things, to warn him and, if necessary, reform himself; and

(b) to give him the chance to respond.

You do admit having made this accusation, yes or no? And you do not think that Gadadhar Pran should know that you are making such accusations, is that what you are saying?

I admit, one accusation and one denial do not establish the truth or falsehood of anything. It is easy to say that where there is smoke there is fire.

You accuse me of being SLIME. No doubt this little puff of smoke will soon become a fire of unlimited arrogance...

No, I do not admit having made any accusation. I said that what I heard from others explained some things that I had seen myself when being with GP. That is all. It is YOU who are saying that I am accusing him. I didn´t even want to mention these things in the first place. It was only because Mina expressed a concern and I concluded that he wanted to know what I was referring to. That is all. You have gone way too far with this Jagat.

We are in a classical situation that comes up again. On the one hand there are rumors and rumors of rumors. Generally speaking, it is considered a Vaishnava quality to avoid rumor-mongering. But from your appearance here, you immediately started announcing to Gadadhar's own disciples that he was a fraud and for their own good they should be forewarned.

I doubt that anyone here will agree that you "did not want" to give us all the lowdown on Gadadhar's faults.

As to not associating with Gaudiyas, I have read your brother-in-law's writings in the past. Obviously you find his company more agreeable than ours, so "chore chore mastuto bhai."

But let me say one thing: I will not go to your guru's ashram and tell him that he is bogus. I have better manners than that. The last time I wrote you I said the same thing, Madhavachari. Don't think I have anything against you. I am just waiting for you to get your act together instead of being the naughty little boy who likes to throw a cat amongst the pigeons. If you have good scandals to monger, try Puranjan Das. He is an eager consumer and distributor of such things.

Go back to the Bhagavatam and read about kanistha bhaktas. I am glad you have found the "bona fide" sampradaya and "bona fide" Absolute Truth, and I still hope that you won't come on this list with a new name and a new sampradaya in a year or two--perhaps Christian, perhaps Buddhist.

Not that I reproach you your search for truth. It's just that religious truth is a bit different than chemistry or physics, my lad.

I have nothing against you, even though I know you want to start a controversy over this. Because you immediately wrote to GP without even saying a word to me, to find out more about it. This shows that you really dislike me and what I have to say. So who is the "kanistha" here? It was not my desire to make these things known. Minaketana Ramadasa expressed concern about something I mentioned about GP. So I told him what I had heard and seen. But you obviously don´t like to know anything about it. Just sticking your head in the sand, eh?
Anyway, I don´t really care what a person like you writes or thinks, because you have just showed that you are a very disturbed person. I hope you will get better some day.
I believe that I am being as truthful as I can be about GP. Why is it that everybody has something bad to say about GP? Maybe because has a lot of issues? Is there so much smoke WITHOUT fire in his case?
You are protecting your old friend, no matter what he has done. That is all, you don´t seem to care at all about what is true or not.
And I am not concerned with this or that sampradaya or this and that guru. That is just mental business. What does concern me is TRUTH. But you would not be able to see it even if it poked you in the eye Mr Brzezinski.

I believe that this thread has ceased being productive. If anyone would like to add something or indicate how it could take a more productive turn, please do so before midnight Eastern tonight, which is when it shall be locked.

madhavachari,

Why are you on such a rampage here? If you were done wrong by GP and think he is a fraud that is understandable. But why attack Jagat..? I just dont get it dude. And this hurling of such insults...your bitterness surely shows!
It's great you have found your path, but dont expect every seeker of 'Truth' to follow your 'Truth', that is about as fanatical as any Iskcon/Christian/Muslim etc.
Please 'Follow your own Bliss' and allow others to follow theirs as well.
Also as I remember from reading your brother-in-laws site...he seemed about as kooky as they come.
Sorry to see you so unhappy.

namaskar,

bangl

Just thought I'd give this link for reference here: Discussion of offenses in Madhurya-Kadambini.

I want to discuss some of the implications here in another thread, probably tomorrow.

I'll post Madhavachari's letter also. I am afraid I cannot get it now, and to be honest, I don't who sent it to me. It was not Mina, so evidently Madhavachari sent it to more than one person.

A disciple went to his master and said to him, "Sir, I want religion." The master looked at the young man, and did not speak, but only smiled. The young man came every day, and insisted that he wanted religion. But the old man knew better than the young man. One day, when it was very hot, he asked the young man to go to the river with him and take a plunge. The young man plunged in, and the old man followed him and held the young man down under the water by force. After the young man had struggled for a while, he let him go and asked him what he wanted most while he was under the water. "A breath of air", the disciple answered. "Do you want God in that way? If you do, you will get Him in a moment," said the master. Until you have that thirst, that desire, you cannot get religion, however you may struggle with your intellect, or your books, or your forms. Until that thirst is awakened in you, you are no better than any atheist; only the atheist is sincere, and you are not.

Swami Vivekananda

Dear Madhavachari,

No one is demonizing you. From reading this thread it does appear that you were asked to speak up and give details because you were alluding to some misconduct. The fact that Gadadhar Pran has friends and disciples on this forum is not something unknown to you, and given that, some common courtesy and discretion on your part is certainly called for.

I would simply say to you - move on. You learned all you could from Gadadhar Pran and you are now on a different path. Try to be thankful for whatever good he did to you and whatever you learned from him. That's all - that is really a matter of common sense of good manners.

Anyway, embarking on the spiritual journey is difficult for anyone - good luck in your pursuits. Try to remember that our position is that we can never know the absolute truth. We are very small and infinitesimal at best. Whatever we know about Narayana is only due to his mercy. But how to really know someone who is unlimited and absolute?

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

For the record, Madhavachari sent the following message to the moderators on Nov. 27:



This is the letter I forwarded to GP and to which he answered. It was not the letter he wrote to Mina.

===================

As a final remark, I would just like to say, as I already have, that I do not reproach Madhavachari for having made these statements. It is just as well that they come out, sooner or later. It happened a little sloppily, but happen it did.

As someone already observed, it is in the very nature of taking a leadership position of any sort that one is examined minutely, and almost inevitably found wanting. I am personally a bit sanguine about the entire concept of "perfection" and think that those who are on a quest for it should understand that "perfection" is a road with no end. But I am already running the risk of repeating myself, so I'll save further comments for elsewhere.

Gadadhar Pran sent me this letter, which I received this morning. It is a personal letter to me, but he asked me to post it. I was hesitant, because I did not think it good for him to appear too defensive, but I rather think that it shows the man for who he is.



Dear Jagadananda,

You’re my dear godbrother. Since you wanted to hear about my fallout with Premananda, I’ll tell you. I’m going to be honest. I feel sorry, I couldn’t arrange that Gaura and Gadadhara benedict him. He has left Mahaprabhu’s sampradaya to take shelter elsewhere.

I feel sad for another reason too : there seem to be so many people who like to criticize and tear me apart. I could very well be the most spit-on person in today’s Vaishnava world ! This is due a lot to my circumstance; you should have a good idea about this already. Yet I can honestly say not one of my critics actually knows me. Concerning Premananda, he was always in Sweden. He only visited me for a short time on a few occasions. He has never seen me do those unspeakable things that he accuses me of. He has heard from the grapevine, and this has influenced him. If he had been sincere, he would have come to ask me what’s going on. But instead he rejected me without saying a word. A year later he has returned to attack me. What an act of cowardice! He sits thousands of miles away in Sweden and sends out nasty messages from his computer to hurt me ! He didn’t have the courage to approach me directly then, now he is boldly badmouthing me. There are punk kids in Nabadwip who like to do similar stuff. Sometimes they shout dirty names to people in Mayapur from the other side of the river. They swell up with arrogance too, because who can cross the river to catch them ?

Perhaps if Premananda had sat down with me to frankly discuss all of the issues he would have come out of the discussion feeling much different. Instead, to call me guilty without a trial, and then to go on to publicly disgrace me is a great injustice, I feel. Anyway, his aparadhas must have been mounting up; why else would our Nitai Chand throw him out of our Gaudiya sampradaya? What can I do?

Nobody really knows what I am doing, about my sadhana and bhajan, nor about the progress we have made since you left Nabadwip back in 1985. Back in those days, I too didn’t care much for the nagaribhava either. I was a follower of the Rupanuga tradition. We used to go a lot to Radhakunda to learn about raga marga bhajan tattva. We were studying the Gutika from Madanmohan Baba and listening to Anantadas’s path. I went to that Manipura baba, Gopal Das, too. He was doing lila smaran around the clock from his version of the Gutika.

Returning to Gadai Gauranga kunja, I did a number of mantra puruscarana vratas. We kept a pujari to do Gaura and Gadadhara’s seva puja as I sat in our kunja beside the Ganga all day doing nama sadhana combined with lila smaran. Can you remember that session we had together at Tatiya sthan in Vrindaban? It was like that, we would get locked into the lila and go on for hours. Prabhu’s mercy helped a lot in terms of internal development concerning our siddha svarupa and our nitya sthiti in both Vrindavan and Nabadwip.

Then I started writing. In 1990, I wrote “Why did Chaitanya Mahaprabhu come,” in 1992, “Nabadwip Braja Madhuri,” and then I started work on “Govinda-lilamrta,” including an extensive commentary. It took five years with a lot of study from the Goswami sastras. I even put in some of my manasi seva experiences into the commentary.

Then a big change came in my bhajan; I met Sachidulal das Baba. I was asking around Nabadwip if anyone knew of any advanced bhajananandis in the Gadadhar paribar. Since our Prabhu and Bhaktivinoda Thakura had given us Gaura and Gadadhar’s worship, I was very eager to know about this bhajan pranali more deeply. Sachidulal lives in a remote village near Paruliya. He worships Gaura and Gadadhar and is initiated in Harimohan Siromani Prabhu's vamsa parampara. This rare mahatma’s zeal and anuraga for speaking Gaura katha was remarkable. His body shivers in bhava and his eyes pour tears! Although he is 95 years old he speaks Gaura katha nonstop all day with such emotion that we would lose external consciousness ! His bhajan is really intense. From the first day I met him he planted the seed of nagari bhajan in my heart. He opened up a new world for me. I then began to see all of the Vaishnava sastras in a new light with deeper vision. The internal mysteries of Gaura lila began to unfold. Sachidulal just might be siddha, he has tremendous vision. He was connected with Haridas Das of Haribol Kutir. He told me a lot of secrets of his nagari bhajan and that of other siddha mahatmas. He has had a lot of exalted association throughout his lifetime. Anyway, he inspired me to research the Chaitanya shastras, and remarkably I came up with a lot of very valuable stuff.

I’m really sad to see that Premananda calls me a fraud. I’m trying very hard to preach a very attractive and madhura form of bhajan. Unfortunately this topic is the most misunderstood and overlooked in our Vaishnava world. Yet nagari bhava forms an integral part of Gaura lila and it is supported by countless Gaura parisadas and mahajanas. Premananda really seems quite misinformed when he writes:


Now look, if I were a disbeliever, here is how I could interpret Sri Krishna’s madhu-pan lila as described in Krishnadas Kaviraja’s Govinda-lilamrta. “Aren’t these Vaishnavas so weird and out of touch with reality! They are taught by the Goswamis to worship and meditate on a lewd and lascivious God who allures countless married women into the forest to enact drunken sex orgies for satisfying his libido.”

Hey Vaishnavas! Wouldn’t you protest to say that I have distorted the facts to give Krishna’s madhura lila a dirty connotation? This is a classic example of how Premananda is misrepresenting nagari bhava. I pray that he can see his great aparadha and rectify himself. I remember once that Premananda said he was more interested is Krishna lila. I told him, very well, you can follow the Goswamis’ Vrindaban bhajan. So what’s the problem? He can do his bhajan, and I will do mine.

P.S – Jagadanandaji, can you please print this letter on your web-site?



Rather than starting a new thread, I decided to reopen this one, if anyone wants to comment on Gadadhar's letter.

I got the both letters (posted here) from my Prabhu .

If Jagat didn't post them here I would do so . So , there is no reason for Madhavachari to blame Jagadananda Prabhu ji because I wrote to Prabhu also about all of this with Madhavachari.

I will try to write an article '' Why is Gadadhara Prana Controversial '' ,
based on this letters .

With respect,

I was rather disturbed by Madhavachari's posts. I've known Gadadhar since 1973. We met while we were both staying in LA, and we became friends because we had mony things in common: we both were introduced to Gaudiya vaishnavism in Hawaii, and he had been a follower of Siddhasvarupananda, who became my friend after he joined ISKCON.

Gadadhar was always sensitive and at least a little eccentric. He was a sincere devotee, but he didin't always fit in very well (another thing we have in common). He was also always very inclined to nama-seva and bhajan. When I heard that he had taken shelter of Lalita Prasad Thakura, I was not very surprised, but a little disappointed that I would be unlikely to have his company again. I guess I was more surprised by his turn to nagari bhava, because I assumed that he would find what he got from LPT satisfying enough to carry him all the way. But I have to say that, although I didn't know him as well as Jagat, I knew him well enough that nothing would come as a complete surprise, except the accusations of lying. I always knew him as honest and honorable. My wife and I were the "old householders" who were supposed to counsel him and his first wife (we had been married a little over a year), so he and I talked about many things while he lived at the Honolulu temple.

That said, I also have been around the block enough times to know that different stresses in our lives can contribute to our doing things we and others may not expect. Although my path is different from his, I have always had affection and respect for him, I still like to consider him a friend, and would always be happy to see him (unlike a godbrother of mine, who recently encountered him in Vraja). Although he and I are unlikely to associate intimately, at least any time soon, I'll leave matters of judgment to those who are so inclined.

And I hope that Jagat and jiva will convey my affection and respect to him, in case he remembers me.

I also find it completely unpleasant to read about any Vaisnava being harshly criticized. I hope I won't have to read such things again.

I pretty much only know Gadadhar Pran dasji through his writings.
In 1991 or 92 I visited him at Gadai Gouranga kunja on three occasions.
We exchanged nectarean katha and I purchased whatever books he had available.

I was glad to see his letter posted by Jagatji. It answered a question I had been wanting to ask. I was wondering where he may have went for siksha on nagari bhav and in the letter the name of Sachidulal das Baba was mentioned, so that helped clear that up.

Can anyone provide more information on Sachidulal das Baba? Jiva maybe?
I would love to hear whatever I could.

Yes , I just did it .

Thanks for your memories regarding Prabhu. I appreciate that.

with respect,

Thank you, dear jiva.

[attachmentid=1130]

Here it is. May be Jagat ji can put it at his web-page and close this topic ?

with respect,

Why close the thread? If you intend to present a paper on a controversy, prepare to face the music. People will discuss, people will challenge.

However what you posted is pretty much just a summary compilation of the letters and posts from participants in the discussion. I don't see it addressing the question "why" of why he is controversial.

There is a subtle point of dharma worth remembering. The reporter of misdeeds shares the sin. That's why Dharma in the form of the Bull avoided telling the king Pariksit who was responsable for his suffering. And anyera apayasa, sunite kahite dosa, to hear of the infamy of others or speak of it, both are fault. Particularly accusing someone of being a liar is most unfair, and in this part of the world it's a serious allegation. After all who has never told a lie, except the king Pariksit?

Again to pry into the minor indescretions of a non-vairagi seems to me quite inapropriate. I never read the Bible nor had any interest in it, but one thing I heard that Jesus said about someone who was about to be stoned to death for some misconduct or other, and told the throwers that whoever has not sinned may commence the throwing. Something like that.

So why not remove the posts containing obvious slander so that the more worthy topics can be dwelt upon.
In my own case if you were to try and find my faults it would be like trying to find a black spot on a black sheet

Yes , this is a summary compilation of the letters (and posts) from participants in the discussion . Did I say something else ?

'' Why is GP Controversial'' was preliminary,working-title , not final.If you start from the Title of the article (Blemishes of the Moon) and sub-title (The Case of Gadadhara Prana) you will see that my intention was not to explain ''why'' is GP Controversial (he's not controversial for me , anyway) but to try to explain that it is not a custom, in Vaisnava tradition ,to personaly, without evidences, badmouthing , attack people which sadhana and teachings are different from ours.

Second , it's only suggestion that moderators delete this topic . Not demand.

I was thinking that people interested in Gadadhara Prana can find on Jagat's web-page , beside general information about GP in his articles , also an article with informations about his personal path through Gaudiya Vaisnavism , family affairs, attacks from different groups and traditions etc. This is usualy shared with the disciples only , but anyway...Prabhu have nothing to hide . That's all.

If you wish to keep it at this site- it's fine with me .

If someone wants threads split, please PM me or any other moderator with the numbers of the posts (see top right of each post) to be split, and preferably also with a suggested title for the new thread.

I edited my earlier post, and in case GP saw it, someone please let him know that it was just a reaction to what I was reading, having been somewhat shocked and dismayed at the possibility that such accusations could be true.

Gossip and the rumor mill are just that. We need to be vigilant lest we become unduly influenced by them and then commit wrongs ourselves.

Amen.

Yes, but it takes maturity to reach that platform. Also, it works both ways. People in a lineage often demonize those who left it. I had never heard about Gadadharaprana before I visited Vrndavana in 2000. Talking to my ex-guru there at one occasion, the topic of Nitai's website came up. Concluding his speech on this topic, my ex-guru, furious, his face almost distorted by anger, exclaimed, "Nitai, Gadadharaprana and others, they will go to hell!" And he repeated, for emphasis, "They will go to hell!" There was no doubt that he believed in what he was saying. And their sin? Having renounced their initiation from Bhaktivedanta.

Elpis,

I have heard similar stories '1st hand' ..

One I will mention was from a noted Kirtaniya famous in Iskcon (a personal friend) who took diksha from Tin Kuti Baba later. He and his wife were living in Vrndavan at the time and were going around to various sadhus and Vaishnavas at Radha Kund.
They presented an honest question to their Ex-Iskcon Guru, that being. "When we go to all the other Gaudiya Vaishnavas outside Iskcon/ Gaudiya Math they explain their 'Guru-Pranali' as being connected to one of Sri Chaitanyas associates, and we were wondering what 'OURS" is ?"

They were told outright..

"It's none of your business"

namsakar,

bangli

Dear Bangli,

I guess that such stories are only too common. I left my first guru (ISKCON) because of his attitude to and criticisms of other vaiSNavas, but I found that my next guru, although portraying himself as better than that, was no better. In VRndAvana, my ex-guru (second guru) and some sannyAsin visitors would have lunch together, and during lunch, they would spend their time criticizing other devotees. No real harikathA, just "So-and-so is off." One of the devotees about whom a nasty story was told, was Gadadharaprana. Disenchanted by this affair, I sought out disciples of his, wanting their opinion about the story. And, as you can imagine, it turned out that they had quite a different story to tell. However, doing this did not exactly earn me any brownie points with my ex-guru.

But I have left all that behind.

Sincerely,
Elpis

On these lines, a couple of years ago I posted the article about Bhaktivinoda's three books, which resulted in many bad reactions from various quarters.

One of the things that came back to me was a comment by a certain ACBSP disciple that I found strange. Back in 1976, I read some of my Gita verse translation to Satsvarupa Maharaj. He liked it and took me to see Srila Prabhupada on the roof of the Mayapur guesthouse. Harisauri, Tamal Krishna, Bhavananda and others were there. I read my poem. Prabhupada liked it and spoke to me for about 20 minutes, encouraging me and even telling me to become guru, etc. So this was probably the most intense personal association I ever had with Srila Prabhupada, though there were other occasions also.

After hearing about my articles, however, this abovementioned disciple recalled that occasion as being one where he could tell that I was an arrogant demon-in-waiting and so on. He had been able to tell, so many years ago, what a terrible demonic destiny awaited me, while others were fooled (especially Satsvarupa). Of course, Prabhupada was not fooled. He was only instructing me to show everyone else that swine are unable to recognize the pearls cast before them!

Dear Jagadananda,

Thank you for sharing your story. Interesting. I witnessed the same tendency when Harikesa left ISKCON. More than one of his senior disciples told me that they had known for a long time that he was off, citing all sorts of evidence to back it up. Yes, one's interpretation of past events may change when faced with a new paradigm. I guess that through your story you are also trying to tell me that my perception of events in the past may be colored by my present disenchantment. Point taken, and I have considered this possibility. Still, my perception of these events has been the same since I witnessed them, and that throughout all the paradigms I have gone through since then.

Sincerely,
Elpis

No, you are reading a little too much into it. I actually posted this earlier and then took it off because I had named the Iskcon devotee and I also thought it was too much about me. However, someone saw it and said it was instructive and asked me to put it back, so I did.

I found the whole thing distasteful from many points of view. The problem for so many people is they can't hold two or three contradictory ideas in their brain without it exploding.

Dear Jagadananda,

Thank you for the clarification. The story is instructive. I understand why you found the whole thing distasteful, and I agree that it is hard to find people who are able to hold contradictory ideas in their minds.

What I find very distasteful as well is when someone outwardly makes a show of being liberal and progressive, throwing around fancy words like "dynamic" and "dignified," but displays quite a different face in private, behind closed doors.

Sincerely,
Elpis

It's the like the priest fondling himself behind the pulpit as he's giving a sermon on the evils of sex...



namaskar,

bangli

Some of my best friends are demons!

He He He...

I don't know why madhavachari said that. The only thing that I would like is to see here some of the nectareous sambhoga-lilas of Rasaraj Gouranga told at Dhamali. May I get this bless someday?

Why don't you just get a copy and read them from the book.

Cause this will not make the people here believe that sambhoga with Mahaprabhu is bonafide

Radhe Radhe

concerning reliable.

hmmmm, please forgive my question and my confusion.
honestly i have a kind of problem in comparing Gadadhara pran das with the Goswamis in puncto being a reliable source.

without being and sounding offensive, but i have to ask this:
how can a guru smoke ghanja ( if he really did) and at the same time be a reliable source like for example Srila Rupa Goswami?

please, i am just asking. i have nothing against Gadadhara pran das.



Tarunji

And back then, they were asking, "How can anyone who has worked directly with the Muslim king--who destroyed Hindu temples, killed cows, and engaged in various other untouchable activities--still be considered a spiritual authority?"

Yes. It's not a question of what someone has done, it's a question of what he's doing.

We have a section in Krishna Premonmaada for gaura nagari bhav if you care to join us

Oh oops, sadhakaji, I do believe you are already a member.

Well, our group is for discussing krishna's sringaara leela, however we have alloted a space for those interested in gaura's madhurya as well.

I think it would go over a bit better there than here in GD. Sounds reasonable?

Is this really important?
To me if a person smoke ganja, drink wine, is a homossexual doesn't make him unbonafide. As would say a bengali quote: even if Gaura-Nitai were drinking wine and sleeping with some women, I would keep my faith!

Yes. I'm really loving this forum!


Sure. I see that I have a lot to learn with other kanta-bhava rasikas.

Radhe

i agree with Madhava´s and Jagat´s points, but still i had to express my doubts.

its just my conditioned view that tells me that a guru should not indulge in intoxication, whatever the name of this guru may be.
sorry for causing any inconvenience with my doubts...

i respect the works in devotion and the writings of Gadadhara pran das very much.

Dandavats
Tarunji