On the relevance of Varna Ashrama - Is Varna Ashrama possible or needed in Kali Yuga?

Hari Bol Prabhus

I am hoping that the vaisnavas will be able to elaborate on the need or lack of need of the Varna Asrama Dharma.

1. How is a prophesied Golden Age possible without such?

2. How can renunciation take place in the Brahmins without the support of the Varnas?

3. Is Asrama weakened without such?

4. Is a Vedic King or figurehead needed?

I am not the expert here but will contribute if others can begin.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Let me answer with questions.

1. Where is this age prophesized in the scriptures? Did Caitanya predict such an age to come? Also, was there varnAzrama-dharma during Satya-yuga? (I can answer that for you: No.)

2. Does one need to be a renounced brahmana to engage in Krishna-bhakti?

3. Have the Goswamis recommended in their writings that people outside the varnAzrama-system should start a role-play of Vedic societal roles as a prerequisite for Krishna-bhakti?

4. What good would he do for anyone?

Haribol Madhava

I argue that a Golden Age is predicted. This is by Swami Narasingha, I believe an off shoot and a follower in the mood of Rupa Goswami, hence Rupanuga Bhava and such states:

The Golden Age Of The Sankirtan Movement


This expresses my open chivalry and sensitivity to others positions.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Hari Bol

Prabhus

Thank you for your kind input. I agree that there is not much remotely similar in practice now. That is the nature of Kali. I agree that the division in labour appears to reflect smarta brahminism more than the equal vision of a vaisnava.

The subject is still discussed. Even dirty hari's website is based on the model in part.

How wide-spread could Gaudiya Vaishnavism spread without such? My production will be small for the next few days as I need to do other work.

I do not wish to distress others but I can remember that at New Vrndavan they were putting crowns on Kirtananda and Prabhupada murti's. In Varna Ashrama such should have been Ksatriyas. This made some persons uneasy.

Again I do not wish to offend, this reflects actually emotional content of those affected.

All glories to the Vaisnavas!

Bhakta David

Hari Bol Madhava Prabhu

In the same link this passage is directly given in support. You are not able to accept the verification of this Purana?

I have been saying for years, and perhaps one day someone will hear: By Varnashram we mean really "congregational community." In other words, basically a society divided into earners and religious professionals. Nothing more complicated than that.

Probably you need to be more specific about what you mean by both a Golden Age and Varna Asrama Dharma. IMHO there is always Varna Asrama Dharma, however you probably mean Daivi Varna Asrama Dharma, right? In that case I take your meaning of (Daivi) Varna Asrama Dharma as being in general terms a Krsna consious social system. In which case I would answer that a Golden Age meaning a generally enlightened Global age would certainly need some sort of enlightened social system as it's basis.

Hari Bol Prabhus,

Does Babaji mention any of this? Do you see a different inerpreation of said citation(s)?

Hari Bol Keshava Prabhu

Hari Bol Prabhu Keshava

I am interested.

My view is that Kirtanananda felt himself to be like a king of New Vrndavan and therefore he projected this on Srila Prabhupada.

There is an element of kingship in the system of Jeer or Math Swamis in India. Indeed they are even called Maharajas (in North India and in GM/ISKCON). This is essentially not correct. A sannyasin is NOT a king. He should be a renunciate. That is his opulence.

Anyway I was living in India and visiting New Vrndavan each summer to perform pujas for Kirtanananda. When he put the crown on SP, many devotees outside New Vrndavan objected. At the time the GBC had rejected taking advice from Sridhara Swami but were taking advice from Narayana Swami of GM. So Bhaktitirtha Swami (a friend and supporter of Kirtanananda) went to Narayana Swami and told him that the GBC wanted to kick out Kirtanananda for worshiping SP in a "kingly" way. He did not indicate specifically that a crown, sceptre or ermine cape were involved. Since Narayana Swami's English was limited, he did not understand exactly what this entailed. In hindi or sanskrit raja upacara is the common term for the worship of the deity in the temple. It means kingly service.

Later I went to Narayana Swami with Bhanu Swami on behalf of the GBC to ask some other questions. As was the system in those days. I knew him well because I had been SP's samadhi pujari for some years and so I went to ask some questions on behalf of the GBC. He asked us why the GBC wanted to kick out Kirtanananda.

I explained clearly to him about the crown and requested that he see a photograph of it before making any statement. When I returned to ISKCON Mayapur with Bhanu Swami, he related this to the other GBC men. They insisted that Mahabuddhi and Radhanatha Swami go with a picture and show Narayana Swami. They were sworn to secrecy about his reply about this. However it is common knowledge now that Narayana Swami realized that he had been deceived by Bhaktitirtha and immediately denounced the practice.

After hearing this Kirtanananda removed the crown, telling his followers that he had received instructions to do so in a dream.

End of story.

Hari Bol Prabhus

In a complementary note, bishops in Christian churches are heirs of the Apostles. As such they are princes in peerage to a king. In this regard, they have all the privileges generally given to princes in western monarchy.

This appears to reflect in Kirtanananda's interest in Christianity and the transformation of New Vrndavan to The City of God a la St. Augustine.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Hari Bol,

I have been listening to a Prabhupada lecture on the subject. 11-2. It is quite generalized but he states that in Kali Yuga society only creates two varnas.

These are vaisyas and sudras. He argues that Varna Ashram is necessary because it changes animal society into civilization.

He gave the example that a street dog is not so nice but when he has a master he becomes nice.

The position demonstrates that the maha mantra is increasingly becoming the only shelter.

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Hari Bol Prabhus

Here is a reference for a "Golden Age".

There is supposed to be a verse in the Brahma-Vaivarta Purana which says:

Text 59 -

kaler dasa-sahasrani madbhaktah samti bhu-tale
ekavarna bhavisyamti madbhaktesu gatesu ca

"For 10,000 years of Kali such devotees of Mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of My devotees there will be only one varna [outcaste]."

Hare Krishna

Bhakta David

Call me weird but I like the right to vote...even though it may not even mean anything..."If the Gods had wanted us to vote, they would have given us candidates", Jim Hightower. I think the idea of evolution to democratic societies with all people having choice and participation in government is something vital and important. Sorry, no scriptural references... its just a gut feeling.