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Academic views, controversies, liberal views, eclectic discussions and so forth. Also, extended debates may be moved here. May contain discussion on views that a devotee may find objectionable.

The Historical Chaitanya - A scholarly historical inquiry



Subal - Mon, 16 Aug 2004 21:39:57 +0530
For a long time now, liberal Christian scholars and theologians have been doing text critical research of the gospels. There is a group called the Jesus Seminar which has published books in which they have gone through the gospels giving the scholarly concensus regarding what the historical Jesus really said and did. Much of the material is considered to be creations of the various authors as they developed the theology/Chirstology over time. It is generally agreed that Jesus did not think of himself as the messiah and did not perform many of the miracles attributed to him. This does not mean that the stories are not spiritually true and lack value. Rather than being considered historical in the modern sense, they are more mythological. Of course, these scholars are coming from a rational, scientific point of view and that affects their assumptions. Besides, Jesus is both man and God or a shaktavesh avatar.

Has any work of this nature been done regarding Sri Chaitanya? Of course, we believe him to be God, but did he consider himself to be God? Did he do all the "miracles" attributed to him? Do we have an accurate record of his teachings or were a lot of things developed by the goswamis and others on their own? These questions should be easier to answer since he is more recent than Jesus and was surrounded by scholars and political leaders in a literate society.

I just finished reading Lord Chaitanya by O.B.L. Kapoor who was a scholar. He tells the story well but does not go into the type of analysis I am asking about. It sounds quite believable, but I would like to know the scholarly opinion.

Dandabats.
Madan Gopal - Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:58:56 +0530
Interesting question Subalji...

I always thought more works like Hindu Encounter would be fantastic. I'd like to see one on ACBSP. Are there ANY works similar to this about any acarya's, avatara's? Like Keshava mentioned, I came away from Hindu Encounter with more faith than with the hagiography.

On the christian side of things I was wondering if you have read any of Dr. Bart Ehrman's works which are some critical analysis of Jesus' life. I don't know, he may be part of that Jesus Seminar you mention. He is a professor local to me and I'm taking an early christianity course this next semester and one of his books is required. Heard a seminar on tape by him which was fantastic.

Subal - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 01:00:07 +0530
I am not familiar with Hindu Encounter or Dr. Bart Ehrman. I hope you enjoy your class on early Christianity. Studying religion academically provides a much different perspective than that of common traditional religious belief.
Jagat - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 03:06:41 +0530
Tony K. Stewart is the current academic authority on the life of Chaitanya. His book should be available on the Web, maybe even at Loibazar.com
Subal - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 05:35:12 +0530
I just read an article by Stewart about Chaitanya. He doesn't really question the premises of the tradition, at most saying "and visited annually by the devotees of Bengal who saw in him Krsna himself," etc.

Banglapedia: Chaitanya
jijaji - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:20:50 +0530
Subal,
Just read this thread and yes indeed there is a book on this very subject I have from years ago. Although I do not agree with the author on all his points, it most certainly is an interesting read and very much in line with your query.

'The Life and Times of Sri Krishna Chaitanya' by Deb Narayan Acharyya with a forward by A.L. Basham, published by Firma KLM Private Limited of Calcutta in 1984.

I don't have a scanner, but I will type out the forward here as it is short enough. And add more as I am able..

Forward

"The whole life of Bengal and indeed, of many other parts of India, has been drastically affected for ages to come by the teachings of the great sixteenth century mystic Sri Caitanya (Basham's spelling). Caitanya appeared in Bengal at a time when Hindus and Muslims had achieved a certain equilibrium under the rule of benevolent Sultans. He took up Vaishnavism which was at the time only one of the strands in the thread of Bengali religious life and greatly developed it along his own lines, producing a distinctive pattern of religious thought and behaviour which has influenced the national character of Bengal in many respects and has helped to make Bengali religious life somewhat different from that of the rest of India."

"Much has been written already about Sri Caitanya, mostly by the devotees of this saintly teacher who have developed a complex body of hagiographical literature about him. Such literature, in many parts of the world, may throw more light on the attitudes of early devotees than on the life of the master himself. The poems on the life of Caitanya, however, do clearly contain authentic recollections of the teacher though in transmission these recollections have become garbled and exaggerated."

"The problem of sifting the historical corn from the hagiographical shaff is a difficult one and hitherto very few scholars have made a serious attempt at doing so. My friend, Dr. D.N. Acharyya, has subjected all the legends of Sri Caitnaya to a very careful analysis, and by this means he has been able to present a biography of the great teacher which is more credible, more historically accurate than anything hitherto written. He has much to say also about the teaching of the master and has presented to the world a really valuable contribution to the history of Hindusim"

"His work is written with sympathy and devotion. He makes no attempt to conceal the fact that he is himself a follower of the great teacher of Bengal, but at the same time he has not allowed his feelings of love and respect for the teacher to cloud his judgement as a scholar and he has produced a work which will long be read as a sincere and successful attempt to present the life of Sri Caitanya to the twentieth century world."

A.L. Basham
Professor of Asian Civilization
The Australian National University
Canberra
jijaji - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:47:12 +0530
Abstract

"The aim of the present work has been to reconstruct as far as possible the life and times of the historical Caitanya (Sri Krsna-Caitanya), a Bengali Saint who lived from 1486 to 1533 and founded an important Vaisnava movement in Bengal, popularly known as Neo Vaisnavism.
We have devoted several chapters to the reconstruction of Caitanya's life. In the main the following method has been adopted. In each chapter summaries of various versions of the particular incident or episode to be discussed in that chapter have been presented in the manner of evidence in a court of enquiry."

"We have then examined the various accounts put forward by our various witnesses and other biographers and tried to determine the main outline or framework of events in each case. Where a witness/biographer has appeared to distort unduly this basic outline, which is found in the majority of the versions, we have attempted to ascertain the reason for this particular distortion of his evidence. Thus to some extent, the work not only examines the life of the historical Caitanya, but also the myth-making process, as revealed in his various biographies."

"Throughout these chapters our method has been to be as far as possible objective, i.e., we have attempted to view Caitanya with modern, twentieth-century eyes. In the final chapter we have tried to see him with the eyes sixteenth-century man in the context of his times. Thus in this final chapter we have been forced to bring to bear our imaginative insight, to penetrate into the mind of Sri Caitanya and his companions in order to gain a more complete perspective of the man and his times."
Subal - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:20:11 +0530
Dear Bangli,

Yes. This is just the sort of thing I am looking for. I don't want you to have to type it all out. I'll try Googling it and see what I get. Thanks.
Subal - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:23:05 +0530
It does not seem to be available.
jijaji - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:29:37 +0530
QUOTE (Subal @ Aug 17 2004, 01:50 AM)
Dear Bangli,

Yes. This is just the sort of thing I am looking for. I don't want you to have to type it all out. I'll try Googling it and see what I get. Thanks.

Well I wasn't gonna type out the entire book..

laugh.gif
jijaji - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:36:23 +0530
QUOTE (Subal @ Aug 17 2004, 01:53 AM)
It does not seem to be available.

You could try contacting Firma KLM Private Limited of Calcutta directly I suppose;

http://www.firmaklm.com

I bought my copy at the Bodhi Tree in L.A back in the 80's you could always try them to see if by some bizzare chance they have a copy (a real long shot of course)..

bangli
jijaji - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 07:51:08 +0530
Subal..

I found it at the Firma KLM Private Limited website

http://www.firmaklm.com

under the Philosophy and Religion section!

smile.gif
Subal - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:32:24 +0530
Bangli,

Thank you. I have inquired about placing an order.
jijaji - Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:21:01 +0530
QUOTE (Subal @ Aug 17 2004, 02:02 PM)
Bangli,

Thank you. I have inquired about placing an order.

Subal

Your most welcome,

I am glad they still carry copies...

Namaskar..

bangli
Subal - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 02:36:28 +0530
I still haven't heard from Firma KLM, but Amazon.com has one for $350. I don't think so.
jijaji - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 02:48:15 +0530
QUOTE (Subal @ Aug 17 2004, 09:06 PM)
I still haven't heard from Firma KLM, but Amazon.com has one for $350. I don't think so.

$350...? What a rip!

gee it's a small little book too..

rolleyes.gif

hari - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 03:13:29 +0530
You can get it at abebooks.com for only $79.95!

Hari
jijaji - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 04:08:56 +0530
QUOTE (hari @ Aug 17 2004, 09:43 PM)
You can get it at abebooks.com for only $79.95!

Hari

Mine cost $8.40 back in the 80's

It's only 189 pages...


blush.gif
anuraag - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:20:12 +0530
QUOTE
Tony K. Stewart is the current academic authority on the life of Chaitanya.

It is a coincidence that I just come across the link:
http://www.poetry.org/issues/issue3/text/poems/rtintro.html

Rabindranath Tagore (translation by Tony K. Stewart and Chase Twichell)
Poems from The Lover of God: Rabindranath Tagore's Songs of the Poet Sun-Lion

The four poems translated here come from a cycle of twenty-two lyrics in the manner of sixteenth century Hindu Vaisnava poets who wrote in an obscure literary dialect of Bengali called Brajabuli. Tradition invites the author-devotee to assume a female persona to establish a proper relationship to the object of devotion, Lord Krishna. The devotee's poetic identity—here an elderly woman called Bhanusimha, a fanciful etymological rendering of Tagore's own name—enters the drama as a companion of Krishna's favorite girlfriend Radha, who struggles to understand the caprice of love.
jijaji - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:17:15 +0530
'The Life and Times of Sri Krishna Caitanya'
Chapter VIII
VARAHAVESA


user posted image

It's posted below...
Jagat - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:41:48 +0530
What's happening, Bangli? Whatever it is, it sounds good. Must be the gopi dust that's sprinkling around. smile.gif
Subal - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:06:00 +0530
I checked abebooks.com, and they don't have one now. Even so, $80 is a bit steep.

I was hoping with all the learned scholars here we could have some good discussion on the subject.

I really appreciate what bangli is providing. This is exactaly the line of thought I was referring to. We can see the progression of development of the story from Mahaprabhu on his hands and knees acting like a boar to his actually assuming the form of a boar. I would assume Murari's version to be the original and most reliable. It is quite within the realm of reason. Vrndabana and Jayananda's versions require a belief in the suspension of the laws of nature and accepting the occurance of a supernatural event.
jijaji - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:41:55 +0530
QUOTE (Subal @ Aug 18 2004, 01:36 PM)
I checked abebooks.com, and they don't have one now. Even so, $80 is a bit steep.

I was hoping with all the learned scholars here we could have some good discussion on the subject.

I really appreciate what bangli is providing. This is exactaly the line of thought I was referring to. We can see the progression of development of the story from Mahaprabhu on his hands and knees acting like a boar to his actually assuming the form of a boar. I would assume Murari's version to be the original and most reliable. It is quite within the realm of reason. Vrndabana and Jayananda's versions require a belief in the suspension of the laws of nature and accepting the occurance of a supernatural event.

I will finish posting this chapter later today...

Jagat - Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:20:00 +0530
This is what Stewart did in his doctoral dissertation. I have an interesting article he wrote about Mahaprabhu's disappearance, which I may try to scan in when I get a chance (not for a couple of weeks, I don't think.)

I thought that his book had been published. I could not find it on the internet, so maybe it hasn't. Stewart took Majumdar's 1935 thesis comparing the various biographies and assessed their historical value. Majumdar's opinions were generally accepted as authoritative for a long time, but they were in need of reassessment.

jijaji - Thu, 19 Aug 2004 05:05:10 +0530
I wanted to post an example from this book showing the authors approach in comparing various biographers of Sri Chaitanyas lila.


'The Life and Times of Sri Krishna Caitanya'
Chapter VIII
Visvambhara's Spiritual Life
second phase: A series of Avesa


(1)
THE VARAHAVESA

(a) The Evidence

I. Murari's version
:-

Murari Gupta relates how he and Visvambhara once entered Murari's temple. Visvambhara became very emotional and wept incessantly. He twice said that he was being attacked by a great boar (varaha). Then he got down on all fours; his eyes became red and round; he grunted like a boar; and then seized a jug in his teeth. When asked to identify who he was, Murari at first confessed his inability to do so and then Murari, remembering a passage in the Gita, said that he did know his identity. Visvambhara then asked whether the Vedas knew him, and Murari replied that they had not the capacity to reveal Him. Visvambhara then declared that according to the Vedas He had no arms or legs, but that as God Himself, He knew the truth of the Vedas. He was Paramatman (the Supreme Soul). He had no eyes, yet he could see, He had no ears, yet he could hear. None knew him, yet he was omniscient. He was Paramatman.

II. Vrndavana's version :-

One day after hearing a recital of several slokas from the Vishnu sahasra-nama depicting the Great Varaha Incarnation (Varahavatara) of Vishnu, Visvambhara went to visit Murari Gupta, and on the way he began to grunt like a boar. When he arrived at Murari's home, Murari respectfully greeted him, and then they proceeded to Murari's Vishnu temple. Murari was somewhat suprised to hear Visvambhara chant 'Boar ! Boar !', as they walked along. On entering the temple Visvambhara saw a water jug and, getting down on all fours, he seized the jug in his teeth, suddenly and simultaneously assuming the form of a boar, which trotted about on it's four hooves grunting. Murari was dumbfounded. But the boar retained the power of human speech and addressed him reassuringly. There ensued a conversation, during which Visvambhara informed Murari that a certain Prakasananda, a Vedic scholar of considerable repute, who resided in Kasi, was at that very moment asserting that God never manifested Himself in human form and was being afflicted with leprosy for this blasphemy.

Vrndavanadas then concludes his account with a number of verses describing describing how Vishnu will punish unbelievers.
C-bha Madhya, III, 18-53

III. Kavikarnapura's version :-

Kavikarnapura's version is exactly the same as that of Murari except for one detail. Kavikarnapura writes that during the Varahavesa Visvambhara threw a pitcher to the ground.
Mahakavya V. 15-21

IV. Jayananda's version :-

In Jayananda's version Visvambhara is given some camphor and betal nut by Murari's wife and sleeps for a short while before visiting the temple. After assuming the form of a boar, Visvambhara hurls a copper vessel over a high wall. This is such a fantastic feat of strength that witnessing it, Murari faints. Whereupon Visvambhara's avesa ends. Later Murari recites some slokas in praise of the Boar-Incarnation, delighting Visvambhara by his eulogy and poetic skill.
Jayananda, p. 54

V. Krsnadas Kaviraja's version :-

Krsnadas Kaviraja's account is brief. He merely records that Visambhara once entered a trance-like state in the home of Murari Gupta and during this trance (avesa) he was possessed by the sentiment of the Great Boar (Varaha).
C-C Adi, XVII, 17

(b) Discussions

I. Murari's version


The sole eye-witness account is that presented by Murari and indeed he was the only witness of the incident at all. His version must, therefore, be most reliable.

In essence Murari's version is this. Once whilst visiting Murari's private temple, Visvambhara became very excited and twice declared that he was being attacked by a boar. This was presumbly a vision, which was immediately followed by a trance-like state in which Visvambhara behaved like a boar. Murari indicates this by picking out significant details. Visvambhara got down on all fours; as a sign that he was possessed by the boar. His eyes became red and round: he grunted and seized the jug in his teeth: in all respects he behaved as though he was a boar. Visvambhara then asked Murari to identify him and this Murari finally managed to do on the strength of a recollection of a passage in the Gita. This and the ensuing conversation is important; it reveals that both Visvambhara and Murari were thinking and acting in accordance with a literary conception; it further reveals that in Visvambhara's case this view had penetrated particularly deep, for in this trance-like state his subconscious mind presumably controlled his conversation; furthermore it reveals that in Visvambhara's subconscious mind the belief had taken root that he was indeed Paramatman.

II. Vrndavanadasa's version

Since Murari's was the only eyewitness account, all deviations from it in Vrndavana's version must be put down either to hearsay or to Vrndavana's personal imagination.

The first deviation refers to Visvambhara's hearing a recital of part of the Visnu-sahasra-nama before visiting Murari. This must be attributed to hearsay. This does not, however, exclude the possibility that it is correct, for it links up with the reference to the Gita in Murari's account and strengthens the view that both Visvambhara and Murari acted in accordance with ideas derived from literature. The second deviation is that Visvambhara actually became a boar, or appeared to do so to Murari Gupta. This must be attributed to Vrndavana's hagiographical intention.

III. The other versions

These versions follow with minor exaggerations and deviations the basic accounts presented either by Murari or Vrndavana. It is interesting to note that Krsnadas Kaviraja records that Prakasananda the Vedic scholar mentioned by Vrndavana, was later converted by Visvambhara, which implies that he recognized his error; and that Jayananda suggests by his discription of Visvambhara hurling the jug over the wall that during his trance Visvambhara experienced a marked increase in physical strength.
DharmaChakra - Sun, 29 Aug 2004 04:30:37 +0530
Not sure if this helps, but I've got a book on my bookshelf called 'Sri Krishna Caitanya - A historical study on Gaudiya Vaisnavism' by A.N. Chatterjee, Associated Publishing Company, New Delhi, 1983

I have not read the book, not even the introduction, but I'll type in the table of contents:

1 - Srikrsna Chaitanya : A Biography
2 - The Krsna-Bhakti Movement of Caitanya
3 - Gaudiya Vaisnavism : The Doctrine of Caitanya
4 - Caitanya's Impact on Medieval Society
5 - Caitanya and the Field of Literature
6 - Caitanya and the Vaisnava Renaissance - The Period in Retrospect
+ 8 Appendices

I bought the book as part of a bulk order from an online bookseller, so its probably not hard to find. I have no idea if its any good, but it at least its on topic.
Subal - Mon, 30 Aug 2004 00:31:28 +0530
Thanks, but that doesn't sound like what I'm looking for.