Babylon -

Are there any ancient history buffs (another Freudian slip) out there who can tell me of any sort of link between Babylonian, Sumerian or Assyrian cultures and Vedic culture?

I am no expert on this, but there certainly were trade contacts between Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley culture.

Also, if you are familiar with omens in the Indian tradition, you will find that many of them are derived from the Babylonian omen series Enuma Anu Enlil. Early Indian astronomy also shows Babylonian influence, presumably through Achaemenid intermediaries.

I hope that this helps a little.

Best, Elpis

Try Bhakti Ananda Goswami. He's very very into this sort of thing. You'd be amazed!

http://www.saragrahi.org/columns/one/one1/...ical_sketch.htm

Copy that. Or just search around. ....tri

Numerous artifacts of the "Harrapan culture" have been found in excavations in Babylon and the Semitic region. In particular, there are quite a number of "Harrapan seals", showing such things as bulls and rhinocerous.

Harrapan culture seems to have had a Saivite influence. Numerous Siva images, lingam and suchlike have been found, but there is no trace of Vaishnava iconography. In Lord Rama's time the sadhus were mostly like Shaivites, as we read in the Ramayana. This is how things were in the age before Krishna's advent, I think it seems reasonable to think that Vaishnav iconography was not commonplace.

Also, in the Bible it states that king Solomon received gifts of peacocks from India. This happened sometime later than the peak of Babylonian culture, c1000 BC, I believe. As far as I can tell, Moses lived some time just after the advent of Lord Krishna. The pyramids were being built before and after Krishna appeared, I think. There is one family of Pharoahs who had Aryan names such as Indra, Marut, etc. They had invaded Egypt from Arabia, according to reports I read in Encylopaedia Brittanica.

Cool info! Where did you get it?

Mostly from Encyclopaedia Brittanica

Also there are many intereting things in some books of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Sri Tattva Viveka, and Sri Krishna samhita. Also, in some books of Srila Bhakti siddhanta saraswati published from Chaitanya Math - dialogues with europeans.

I believe that you are thinking of Mitanni. They ruled an area in an area of Mesopotamia, not Egypt. Their gods had Aryan names like Indra, etc. These people probably went West through Iran while another branch of Aryans went into the Punjab and then into India proper. The Mitanni kingdom was destroyed by the Assyrians.

Best,
Elpis

They say that the Egyptians were descended from the frightened Kshatriyas who ran away in fear of Lord ParazurAma.

The people who try to derive the origin of all the people of the world from the ksatriyas chased out of India by Parasurama reminds me of those who try connect each culture with one of Israel's ten lost tribes.

Elpis,

Yes I have heard of the Mittani, but I do believe there was one line of Pharoahs with Aryan language names. I will google to see if i can find out more. I did read it in an encyclopaedia.

It is fairly certain the australian aborigines are related to Dravidian people, ethnically.

And all in all, the theory that Aryans came to India from the north or west has little concrete evidence to support it. The europeans started off this theory, in the colonial era when people regarded the Biblical lands as the cradel of civilization. But anyway, if anyone was interested I could post a quite strong refutation of that theory here. It is a fact of record that the bronze age began in South East Asia (Thailand) several centuries before bronze was used in the middle east. China and India had advanced civilizations at the same time as Egypt and Babylon.

Elpis,

I believe you were right in regard to the Mittani and the Aryans. Interestingly, one of the Mittani kings was called Dasaratha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni

You probably had in mind that a Mitanni princess married the Egyptian king Akhenaten.

That is pure speculation, and quite doubtful.

In fact it appears that senior men (kings?) of the civilization would wear a bull's horns on their head to signifiy their authority, like a crown. An image of such a headman, sitting in a yoga-like posture surrounded by animals has been compared to the legend of Pashupati Shiva. Since when did Shiva wear a Bull's horns? It is just as likely to be some type of Minotaur cult, considering the proven links with the Mediterranean. And the many seals of the civilization indicate that they used images of particular animals like symbolic totems to identify particular familes. The image of the headman surrounded by animals is then simply a symbol of his kingly reign over the various clans in his domain represented by their totem.

Also all old civilizations had phallic images, this does not make them all Shaivite.

Such claims are just wishful thinking.

The Harrapan civilization also had apartments with private bathrooms and even toilets.

Is 'ensuite' Vedic then?

Here's a question I'd like to ask: when did the sari appear in Indian culture?
I find no evidence of it in early texts or sculpture.

But the one aspect of an Indian woman's dress which we can see has remained constant from ancient Harrapa till now is the arm bangle. Also there is an image on the Harrapan seals which looks very much like a wedding, with a groom adorned with head-dress under a decorated arch being approached by 4 women.

After all it is actually women who hold together and preserve a culture. That it is their customs which have lasted best is not surprising, eh Betelnutji?

From the Tokarian culture North of China, west to distant Ireland, some sort of cataclysmic event seems to have spread the current Indo-European languages, and related culture of warrior gods like Indra, about 3-4000 years ago, wiping out all previous languages (except for the tiny pocket of Basque in Spain), and cultures like that of Malta, where there is an ancient Temple dedicated to fat women (!), small similar statues being found all across ancient Europe in prehistoric times (The Fat Lady? Surely not Vedic!).

The earliest datable sanskrit inscriptions and references to Vedic gods are indeed the Mittani outside India.

It is the ancient Persian Mazdaite texts which contain references to the 'aryan' or Iranian people coming from somewhere to the north, from whence their great king Yama led them fleeing some great menace - the last ice age?

Earlier Indian scholars like Balgangadhar Tilak, and indeed Bhaktivinoda, accepted the available evidence as pointing to an origin outside India. They were not simply parroting european theories.

The current Indian revisionism only works by excluding and often insulting the equally valid Persian perspective. Such an approach cannot be called objective.

interesting, how old?

Indeed.

I myself don't think Indra worship and soma and horse sacrifices are "sanatan dharma".

I am quite happy with the image of a cowherd boy who comes into the meeting of village elders and tells all the herdsmen to stop worshipping that sky god. Don't worry that the vengeful sky god will hurt you. No evil can hurt you if you are doing good works, and a cowherd's work is good.

In regard to Saivism, I see Bob Marley as a type of Shaivite, even though his religion is Rasta. No doubt you have read where Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur suggests that the path of pancopasana worship is a path of evolution of consciousness: from worship of Matter (maya), to Light (surya), to animate consciousness (ganesh), to liberated consciousness (shiva), and finally to Vishnu consciousness. In this way, I see Bob Marley as someone near to Shiva consciousness.

The lingam? This was prominent in Harrapan culture. As it also was in the culture of Ankor Wat, where the king installed Siva lingams in temples on the outside corners of the huge Cambodian ricelands surrounding Ankor Wat. Bob Marley was also famous for his lingam.

This is a question for Elpis Presley...........

In your research have you found the origins of that institutionalized suicide practice called "sati"? Was it Vedic? How, why and where did it start and what kind of society allowed such an atrocity to take place?

You might want to ask Elvis to weigh in on this issue.

Pending "Elvis's" reply, the origin of this practice seems to be in none other than the Bhagavata Purana, so it is certainly Vedic. It started because Sati could not tolerate the abuse and blasphemy of her husband, Shiva.

Humor aside, I am also interested in how this became a de-facto duty for ordinary people.

A goddess self combusting is not the same as mass gynocide.

Horns served as a symbol of power in many ancient cultures, not just the Harappan (if indeed that is the correct interpretation in this case).

Sincerely,
Elpis

The period between the 17th to the 14th century BC, if I remember correctly.

Sincerely,
Elpis

The current Indian revisionism has a clear political agenda. India has a very rich history and so much to be proud of. But instead of focusing on that, things that are completely untrue are brought forward. Everything comes from India, etc. Some even say that Einstein's theories are already found in the Vedas. What will they say when the time comes when Einstein's theories are outdated?

By the way, did you hear about the recent ransacking of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute?

Sincerely,
Elpis

Some trace the practice back to the Rgveda (10.18), although I am not sure that the interpretation is clear enough to support that. More clear statements are found in the purANas. (The purANic passage that Gaurasundara refers to above is also cited as a source.) I do not claim to be any sort of expert on this, but I do know that some dharma writers disapprove of the practice, while others considers it an option, not something you have to do. I am not sure what lead the practice to become mandatory.

This webpage has more information:

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/women/sati/index.htm

Sincerely,
Elpis

Sorry for late reply.

Gimme a break. The problem of Sati was indeed widespread but I would not compare it to genocide.

---
Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId
Function: noun
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
---

Would you know which dharma-writers in particular? There's Manu's sastra for instance which is known to have undergone several "revisions." How about Yajnavalkya? I did not notice anything in there, have you? Anyone else?

Yes, there are several references to sati in the Sanjaya Smriti.

Seems that particular "dharma writer" had a penchant for killing women........ perhaps because his Ishtadeva was also known for such.

Actually betal nut used the word gynocide, gyno being Greek for woman...

For years I had only seen the Harappan seal with the bull-horned 'Pashupati' invoked to back up the Shiva in Harappa claims.

Yesterday I came across this image: http://www.harappa.com/indus/33.html

Somehow I had not previously noticed that these images have 3 faces. This particular image does not have a bull's horns but some other type of crown, topped by what is said to be Peepul leaves. The armful of bangles look strange on a male, and I still think it depicts a local king, but I concede that it does look a lot more like Shiva than the other images I was used to.

The 3 face motif is especially striking, and for me tips the balance of probability more in Shiva's direction.

Thanks for that.

Namo Shivaya!

In regard to the unicorn of Harrapa, I saw an interesting TV show recently about rhinocerous. Apparently, kings in India in the 5th century AD used to have herds of domesticated rhinos in their arsenal. They would send the rhinos into battle to break up troop formations of the enemy, and some kings had rhinos with special armour including tridents on their horn. Apparently, the rhinos were called the "carriers of Vishnu", or something like that.