Japa and visualization - Japa in Raganuga Bhakti

Haribol!

I went to a wonderful program last week-end. I was told that it was important to not just listen to the Maha-Mantra when we chant, but to visualize a specific Pastimes of Krishna (or Radha-Krishna) in my mind. Should I always stick to one Pastime or can I change it every day ? This question sounds really stupid but what I want to know is that if I can meditate on a veriety of Pastimes.
The mood at that program was totally different than the one I am used to in ISKCON. I felt so much lov and greed for the Lord's Pastimes, it was beautiful!
Thank you! Radhe Radhe! Gauranga! Nityananda!

Bhakta Maxime

Dear Maxime,

If i can ask you,which program was that?

Jai sri Radhe, dear maxime, please acept my dandavats, whent you chant japa is very import the listern good the words and remembers the purport , i read in some books that also you can remenber one pastime u one lords form, bhut in ani case the point more import is sravana and later the smarana is more easy. Ekesuara das

Dear Maxime,

You have taken a good step in advancing towards the prayojana we aspire to attain. As the name and the named are nondifferent, certainly one should long for a complete experience of the Divine Couple, rather than separately focusing on Their names, forms, qualities and pastimes.

There are varieties of lila-smaran one may practice in accordance with one's inclination. The realm of lila is divided in two, namely prakata (occuring in this world) and aprakata (occuring in the realm beyond). Prakata-lila consists of the pastimes Sri Krishna displayed during His presence in this Earthly realm, such as slaying Putana, bewildering Brahma, blessing the Brahmanas' wives, lifting Giri Govardhana, leaving to Mathura and so forth. Aprakata-lila is again divided into two, namely Mantramayi-lila and Svarasiki-lila. Meditation on Mantramayi-lila generally refers to the service rendered during Yogapitha-milana which occurs thrice daily. Svarasiki-lila consists of the eternally unfolding eight-fold daily pastimes of Radha and Krishna. These two aspects of Aprakata-lila are compared to a flowing river and a static lake of water amidst the river.

Since we long to ultimately attain the aprakata-lila of Radha-Krishna, naturally their eight-fold daily pastimes (astakaliya-lila) are the main focus of the lila we remember, but according to one's inclination one may meditate on any of the aspects of lila one is attracted to. In other words, there are no hard and fast rules in this regard. On whichever lila you can easily focus your mind, think of that. Eventually, as the heart is purified by constant endeavors and prayers, the astakaliya-lila will unfold within the heart.

It was a program of Srila Narayana Maharaja's disciple.

Radhe Radhe!

The Gaudiya Vaishnavas chant japa mentally rather than out loud. I only know of two exceptions: One babaji I met in Braj and the followers of Gaudiya Math/ISKCON. In fact, one would be berated for silent japa within ISKCON, despite it being part of the actual tradition. There is a solid reason for mental chanting. It is considered to be superior.

The Tibetan Buddhists like to chant their mantras out loud in a group setting, but then again we are not Buddhists.

Hare Krishna Madhavaji,

Can you please elaborate on your statement above? The question I have is - initially is it not necessary to focus separately on the names, forms, qualities and pastimes of the Divine Couple?

"The Gaudiya Vaishnavas chant japa mentally rather than out loud."

I have a problem with the logic of this sentence. If I go to a dictionary and look for the word 'chant' I will find something like, "to say repetitiously and monotonously" or "to talk monotonously and continuously" and "A vocal melody sung in free rhythm, usually unaccompanied and witha series of words sung at a single pitch" There must be another name than 'chant' when the holy names rounds are executed mentally. Do you know? Because, to say, to talk and vocal melody imply a sound and that is sankïrtana and chanting japa.

Another point is that in the Srï bhakti viläsa I found "Although Shree Vishnu-smaranam detroys all sins, it can only be fully realized after a person has endeavoured with great difficulty over a prolonged period of time. Vishnu kirtanam however is superior because when Shree Krishna-näma merely vibrates upon a person's lips, he becomes liberated from bondage to the cycle of samsära"

Also Prahläda Mahäräja said,

japato hari-nämäni
sthäne shata-gunädhikah
ätmänañ ca punäty uccair
japan shrotrin punäti ca

"A person who chants Shree hari näma loudly is one hundred times superior to one who chants quietly. The person who chants quietly only benefits and purifies himself, whereas one who chants loudly also benefits and purifies all who hear him, such as animals insects birds trees and creepers. Such entities cannot chant, but they can be delivered from the ocean of birth and death simply by hearing this hari näma."

If I apply the above statement of Prahläda Mahäräja, to what you said " only know of two exceptions: One babaji I met in Braj and the followers of Gaudiya Math/ISKCON." then you should be extremely happy that you heard the holy names from a pure devotee, because he saw you as impure. There is no need in Vrindaban to chant the holy name loudly because bird, trees, etc are already delivered. Except when western bodies pass around. Time, place and circumstances. Therefore, from a sadhaka point of view, Chant loudly.

Jay Radhe!

Yours In Service,

Statements about different qualities of japa should be seen in the proper context. The text you quoted comes in the context of preaching, whereas Ramdas may have quoted the verses in Haribhakti Vilasa, which deal with regular japa sadhana, and in which it is stated
(quoting Narasimha Purana and Yajnavalkya, Haribhakti Vilasa 17.161-162):

tri vidha japa yajnah syat tasya bhaven nibodhaya;
vacikas ca upamsus ca manasas ca tridha matah
mantram uccarayed vyaktam japayata sa vacikah;
kinciccabdam svayam vidyad upamsuh sa japah smrtah
upamsu japam uktasya tasmacchato guno bhavet;
sahasro manasah prokto yasmad dhyana samo hi sah

"There are three kinds of japa— vocal, muttering and mental. Loud chanting of the mantra is called vocal japa, whispering is called upamsu and mental chanting is called manasik japa. Whispering is a hundred times better than loud japa and mental chanting is a thousand times better. This is equal to meditation."

Thus for the preacher loud japa is better and for the bhajananandi mental japa is better. There is no contradiction here.
Better than using the verb 'chanting' japa, is 'doing' or 'performing' japa, because the verb 'chanting' indeed indicates loud repetition.

Srila Rupa Gosvamipad defines japa as follows in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu: mantrasya sulaghUccAro japa ity abhidhIyate || 1.2.149 || -- "The very light pronounciation of a mantra is considered japa."

Of course, one must himself assess what kind of japa he is capable of doing through experimentation. A person with a very restless mind may find it very hard to chant mentally or even whispering, and he therefore has to chant aloud. Another person, his mind somewhat pacified,may find whispering the mantra most convenient, and an experienced sadhaka will find chanting the mantra solely within the mind as the most powerful practice of all. One may also practice a mixture of the three kinds of japa as convenient.

Interestingly, according to Advaita Prakash, Namacarya Haridas Thakur himself chanted one lakh vacika, one lakh upamsu and one lakh manasik japa.

Certainly you can contemplate on them separately, too, but we must acknowledge the realization we aim to attain, striving for it rather than depriving ourselves from it.

The term 'pure devotee' is a GM/ISKCON invention. It is not used outside their institution, therefore in discussions on this forum it is basically meaningless. I suggest you find some other accepted terminology instead. Either that, or first define such terms before batting them about like some siddhantic volley ball.

sei ‘zuddha-bhakta’ ye tomA bhaje tomA lAgi | ApanAra sukha-duHkhe haya bhoga-bhogI || cc 3.9.75 ||

How I delete a post?

Advaita and Madhava combined have a proper orientation on this matter of chanting loud or perfoming japa within the mind.

May I add to it? In a book called Vaishnava kantha-hära it is written,

"Srïla Sanätana Gosvämï, in his Digdarshinï Tïkä, writes, Chanting japa melodiously, with high and low sound, where others can hear every sound vibration clearly is called svarita. It is said that one should chant clearly; but better than chanting japa out loud and clearly is to chant japa so that it can be heard only by oneself. This is called upänshu. When one, by his intelligence carefully meditates on the names of the Lord, one word after another, systematically, repeating the mantra again and again, it is called performing japa withing the mind. Upänshu chanting is one hundred times better than svarita chanting, and chanting within the mind is one thousand times better than svarita chanting. perfoming japa within the mind is done with the use of a particular nerve called sushuma, which produces no sound. This japa is equal to meditation and is the best."

Now, in the book mentioned above I found the quote used by Advaita, 17.161.162 of Hari Bhakti Viläsa, in this way

nadoso mänase jäpe sarva deshe 'pi sarvadä
japa nishtho dvija ShreShthah sarva yajña phalam labhet
ashucir vä shucir väpi gacchan tishthan shvapannnapi
mantraiva Sharano vidvän manasaiva sadäbhyaset

"O best of the brahmanas, in all conditions and at all times, one should chant japa in one's mind because such chanting is faultless. Therefore, anyone who chants japa gets the results of performing all kinds of sacrifices. Whatever one's condition may be, whether purified or unpurified, whether walking, motionless (standing or sitting) or sleeping, one should take complete shelter at the feet of japa and practice within one's mind."

Quite different don't you think, although perfoming japa within the mind is stress in both translations.

Dear Nandai, there are different editions of Haribhakti Vilasa, with different systems of verse numberings. In the edition I currently use, of Mahesh Library, the verses you quote are nr.78 of chapter 17, while the verses I quoted (tri vidha japa yajna) are nrs. 73. So here is no contradiction. Look back a few verses in your book and you will find the verses I quoted there. The text you quote from the book kantha hara clearly confirms the purport of the tri vidha japa yajna verses.

I found this very interesting, "perfoming japa within the mind is done with the use of a particular nerve called sushuma, which produces no sound."

Does anyone know the english equivalent for sushuma?

So there is a textual reference to the term after all. Thanks for posting it. On the other hand, if it is an important term, why is it not commonly used all over the place in the literature? Why is it not commonly used in conversation among Gaudiya vaishnavas?

The terms pure and impure are usually in reference to ritual purity. The atma is never impure at any time. Being covered by the tri-gunas is the explanation. The body and mind are what contain impurities. Samskaras are carried by the atma from one embodiment to the next, but they still are not attributes of the atma. Terms like mukta (liberated) and siddha (perfected) are used to describe the devotees that are no longer affected by such impurities. They are not people that were once impure and now have become pure. They are in fact atmas that have become uncovered by the three gunas. Good karma is not accumulated in our process, rather it is dissolved. Even the fruits of good deeds are considered impediments to unalloyed bhakti.

I suggest that those who are inclined to use a term like 'pure devotee' would be better off discarding it in favor of something like devotee of purified mind or the customary term siddha-mahatma (perfected great soul). That will accomplish both clarity and the removal of potential misinterpretation and confusion of intent.

Sorry for sounding pedantic. It is just that I see the use of ambiguous or vague jargon as being counterproductive.

What are actually much more significant in our tradtition are the various levels of bhava and prema. Yes, the process does automatically bring about purification of body and mind and eventually mukti, but the goal is actually prema-bhakti. It is not that we are striving for a state of zero impurities of body and mind, rather a state of being firmly fixed in unalloyed devotion. The mantras, which are the tools, are always pure as they come to us through the parampara. The mental purity of the persons acting as diksha gurus in the lineage is never a factor. The guru does not have to be a siddha-mahatma to fulfull his/her role. The connection to the sampradaya is their qualification. Of course, a certain standard of behavior is expected of them - don't misunderstand. They are also expected to be Vaishnavas that intitiate with Vaishnava mantras.

You can just click on the "Edit" button and remove the contents. Only administrators can delete posts altogether.

Which book is this?

Sushumna really has no English equivalent. One might call it an energy channel or pathway, but that is still an awkward translation at best.

Just to see all of the shades of meaning of the word zuddha in Bengali (a Sanskrit word originally), I pulled out my Bengali to English dictionaries. Samsad is more comprehensive than A.T. Dev:

zuddha -- (1) a. faultless; flawless; immaculate; clean; pure; purified; rectified; holy; sacred; sanctified; consecrated; virtuous; chaste; genuine; unadulterated; correct; right...


So, then what is the most accurate translation of zuddha-bhakta into English? Devotee is actually a French word, but it does do a good job of conveying the devotional nature of a bhakta or follower of the path of devotion. In reference to a person, one might say that virtuous (or holy) is the best translation, thus 'virtuous devotee'. That has quite a different connotation to it than 'pure devotee'. In reference to sattva-guna, zuddha sattva would be more accurately translated as pure goodness, since it refers to a quality rather than to a person. Chaste and genuine are also applicable to persons, so maybe genuine devotee perhaps?

Why is it not commonly used all over the place in the literature? In fact, I believe it is quite frequently used.

For example, there is the five-fold division of bhaktas in Brihat Bhagavatamrita (2.1.16): jnana-bhaktas (such as Bharata), suddha-bhaktas (such as Ambarisa), prema-bhaktas (such as Hanuman), prema-para-bhaktas (such as Arjuna) and prematura-bhaktas (such as Uddhava).

Suddha-bhakta is a bhakta who is engaged in suddha-bhakti, as in anyAbhilASitA-zunyaM jJAna-karmAdy-anAvRtam ... bhaktir uttama. Suddha-bhakta essentially means a bhakta whose bhakti is unmixed with anything else.

The term suddha-bhakta is seen in Caitanya Caritamrita on a number of occasions. Some examples follow.

ei zuddha-bhakta laJA karimu avatAra | kariba vividha-vidha adbhuta vihAra || cc 1.4.27 ||

Here the term suddha-bhakta is used when referring to the associates of Mahaprabhu who descended with Him to this world.

Ara zuddha-bhakta kRSNa-prema-sevA vine | sva-sukhArtha sAlokyAdi nA kare grahaNe || cc 1.4.204 ||

This is a more traditional application, suddha-bhakta is one who doesn't aspire for his own joy, even rejecting the varieties of mukti if they hinder prema-seva, which is his life and soul.

zrIvAsAdi yata koTi koTi bhakta-gaNa | zuddha-bhakta-tattva-madhye tAG-sabAra gaNana || cc 1.7.16 ||

In explaining the fifth aspect of panca-tattva, bhakta-tattva is explained. The millions upon millions of bhaktas headed by Srivasa are known as suddha-bhaktas.

ei cAri sukRti haya mahA-bhAgyavAn | tat-tat-kAmAdi chADi’ haya zuddha-bhaktimAn || cc 2.24.96 ||

There are four kinds of motivated people, who gradually become suddha-bhaktiman, they attain unmotivated bhakti.

I'm sure one could dig up a good pile of additional references. This is the most obvious I can think of for now. I don't think we can discard this very useful term, regardless of how much or how little it is used. What else a word would one use in describing a person whose devotion is untainted? I can't think of a more precise term, and I also can't see how it might cause confusion, especially so if the original Sanskrit form of the term is applied. We are certainly all familiar with the concept of suddha-bhakti.

Now, whether suddha-bhakta or siddha-mahatma, let us excercise caution in throwing the designation here and there. Vox populi is not the yardstick of devotional status.

I believe it should be sushumna. Sushumna is one of the main nadis of the body. Run a search on sushumna with Google and you'll find plenty of content to study in this regard.

[quote=Madhava,Aug 25 2003, 11:39 AM] [QUOTE=Madhava,Aug 24 2003, 06:38 PM]

I'm sure one could dig up a good pile of additional references. This is the most obvious I can think of for now. I don't think we can discard this very useful term, regardless of how much or how little it is used. What else a word would one use in describing a person whose devotion is untainted? I can't think of a more precise term, and I also can't see how it might cause confusion, especially so if the original Sanskrit form of the term is applied. We are certainly all familiar with the concept of suddha-bhakti.

Now, whether suddha-bhakta or siddha-mahatma, let us excercise caution in throwing the designation here and there. Vox populi is not the yardstick of devotional status.
[/quote]
An interesting collection of quotes. I was not actually suggesting that we discard the Bengali (or Sanskrit) term. I was just questioning how it should be translated, as well as its definition. If someone wants to translate it as 'pure devotee', I don't have a problem with that as long as they first clearly define what is meant by it. Otherwise, it is just jargon that has no meaning outside of some group that uses it to communicate with each other. I first heard 'pure devotee' from some ISKCON people and was puzzled by it. I looked for some clear definition of it over a period of several years, but did not find any satisfactory explanation coming from anyone attempting to define it. So, I decided that it was simply a jargon term like 'cool' or 'groovy' - something that people found to come in handy but that did not really communicate anything meaningful.

So, if we are to allow its use here, then we should somehow relate it to raganuga bhakti - agreed?

Yes, I agree with the jargon point. There are more precise definitions of the usage of "pure devotee", but indeed the problem is that there are many of them. Pure devotee is a devotee who comes fresh out of shower, pure devotee is a devotee who follows the four regs, pure devotee is a devotee who is always doing service, pure devotee is a devotee who is free from material desires, pure devotee is a devotee who sees Krishna face to face, and so forth.

I suggest using the "anyAbhilASitA-zunyam" definition.

Madhava, here is the link to the Vaishnava Kanta Hära book written by Krishna Balaram Swami,

http://www.krsna.org/sbooks.html

Who is Krishna Balaram Swami?

I believe he received initiation from Bhaktivedanta Swami. He was once in ISKCON but now has a mission of his own. He seems to be at odds with ISKCON/GM on a number of issues.

That's for sure.