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Whatever is left over from the archives of the old Raganuga.Com forums after most of the substantial threads were moved to the relevant areas of the main forums.

lower caste -

TarunGovindadas - Sat, 08 Nov 2003 21:21:52 +0530
Radhe Radhe!

i hope no one is going to kill me for this question with a bazooka....

why are women considered to be a lower caste?

stone-seller: "stones, wonderful throw-stones, good size, cheap prize!"
Brian: " Mum, i wanna go to the stoning today!"
Mum: "No way, we go home now!"
Brian. "But lets go to a stoning today. We rarely go to a nice stoning lately. Lets buy some stones and enjoy throwing!"
Mum: "Ah, c΄mon, i do not know... by the way, who΄s going to be the victim at the stoning today?"
Brian: "Its Tarun Kishor das. All members from will be there!"
Mum: " GREAT! Lets buy and go then!"

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Madhava - Sat, 08 Nov 2003 22:12:10 +0530
QUOTE(TarunKishordas @ Nov 8 2003, 03:51 PM)
why are women considered to be a lower caste?

You tell me that. According to whom is this? I haven't heard of a caste called "woman".
TarunGovindadas - Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:38:16 +0530
Radhe Radhe!

here one verse which i remember:

te vai vidanty atitaranti ca deva-māyāṃ

strī-śūdra-hūṇa-śabarā api pāpa-jīvāḥ

yady adbhuta-krama-parāyaṇa-śīla-śikṣās

tiryag-janā api kim u śruta-dhāraṇā ye


te — such persons; vai — undoubtedly; vidanti — do know; atitaranti — surpass; ca — also; deva-māyām — the covering energy of the Lord; strī — such as women; śūdra — the laborer class of men; hūṇa — the mountaineers; śabarāḥ — the Siberians, or those lower than the śūdras; api — although; pāpa-jīvāḥ — sinful living beings; yadi — provided; adbhuta-krama — one whose acts are so wonderful; parāyaṇa — those who are devotees; śīla — behavior; śikṣāḥ — trained by; tiryak-janāḥ — even those who are not human beings; api — also; kim — what; u — to speak of; śruta-dhāraṇāḥ — those who have taken to the idea of the Lord by hearing about Him; ye — those.


Surrendered souls, even from groups leading sinful lives, such as women, the laborer class, the mountaineers and the Siberians, or even the birds and beasts, can also know about the science of Godhead and become liberated from the clutches of the illusory energy by surrendering unto the pure devotees of the Lord and by following in their footsteps in devotional service.


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adiyen - Sun, 09 Nov 2003 17:34:51 +0530
Yes, Tarun, I think you are correct that stri-sudra is a common phrase identifying women with lower castes.

My approach to all this, though, is that it has nothing to do with Bhakti, as the above verse mentions. It merely describes Hindu society at the time the scripture was written, and says that Bhakti transcends all this.

So it has nothing to do with Bhakti, it does not concern devotees.

Why is it so? Because Hindu society is like that. I don't think we should discuss the rights and wrongs of Hindu society here, its a complex issue.

No bazookas, Tarunji. No stones. I know some devotees think such things are important. But the scriptures are clear, these mundane designations do not hinder devotion. That's the point.
TarunGovindadas - Sun, 09 Nov 2003 22:55:54 +0530
Radhe Radhe!

no stoning today.

good point, dear Adiyen.

yep, bhakti is for all. my approach , too.