green tea? -

Jay Sri Radhe!

since several years i use the very extraordinary healthy green tea coming from japan.
is this a violation of the regulative principles?

i use it as a medicine and i very hardly get sick, if at all.

please forgive me if some find this question stupid.

Tiny

Drink all you like. I do.

what you mean with "all you like"?

It means: Drink at least one cup but don't drink five liters unless absolutely necessary.

Oh yes: It does not mean, "Drink whatever you like, like whisky."

Hare Krishna

do you offer the tea to krishna
before drinking it?

I don't suppose there is any rule against this.

Jay Radhe!

I drink green tea too and I offer it to Krishna. I don't think it has anything wrong to it, since green tea is very healthly. But in Iskcon they say that is intoxication.

Now what do you think about chocolate? and ayahuaska? anyone here drink this tea? It's very benefical to health, but some says it's intoxication since it takes you to a alterate state of consciouness. If we follow this logic, we should stop breathing cause some kinds of breath alter our consciouness.

Ishvarananda Das - who thinks that Radha-Krishna and Goura-lilas are very intoxicating

While we're at it, let's take up the issue of pan, too. It is often considered something devotees should not take. In fact, I've heard of people being in the habit of discarding tambul offered to Deities because of this.

However, this certainly was not the practice in the times of Mahaprabhu, as the Caitanya Caritamrita testifies.


[*] Mahaprabhu Himself accepted the prasadi-tambul from the Deity. (Adi 15)

[*] In the famous Panihati festival, flower-garlands, chandan and tambul were distributed to all the assembled devotees. (Antya 6)

[*] Vallabha Bhatta offered garlands, spices, chandan and pan to all the devotees when he met with Mahaprabhu. (Antya 7)

However, if anyone takes betel in Vraja or in Bengal, make sure it is clean betel, check that there is no tobacco or bhang wrapped inside. In Vraja, some local people are in the habit of offering tambul with bhang in Dauji mandirs.

I'm not familiar with ayahuaska, but if it contains psychotropic agents, I recommend you stay clear of it. Something which refreshes mildly is not an issue, but if it wipes you way out, steer clear of it.

Oh yes, this principle also applies to those brahmacaris in the ashram who don't eat chocolate but who swallow up to twenty gulabjamuns in the Sunday feast and are on the verge of beginning to hallucinate after the sugar overdose.

Yes, ayahuaska has psychotropic agents. But what's the problem with this?
The Betel Nuts has psychotropic agents too. It's not the same thing that a ayahuaska tea, but the principle is the same.

If is benefical why not use it?

More info about this at:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ayahuasca/...ayahuasca.shtml
http://www.erowid.org/plants/betel/betel.shtml

Your servant,
Ishvarandanda Das

There's a gulf of difference between mildly refreshing and strongly hallucinogenic.

Tell me, how is hallucinogenic tea beneficial for bhakti? I've had my share of experiences with the genre in the past, and I fail to see them as anything but distractions from actual bhajan.

I'm certain there are other herbs out there with similar health benefits, if that's what you meant by beneficial.

yes, I agree with you, but I think that if someone can take pan then he can use another psychotropic substances. There are no general rules in this case.

First of all, I don't think that ayahuaska is a hallucinogenic tea. Hallucinogen means "something that haven't light". When you drink ayahuaska is just the inverse. You will have more thought clarity. Sometimes (not always) you will see some images like mandalas, spiritual beings etc. All this things are from the subtle realm known as astral plane. When you are there you may see how this plane influences the material world and can change them. This depends of your ability.
To me this helped to stop drinking alcohol and another drugs, and changing my lifestyle to a more satvic one. It helped to improve my memory and concentration.
I went to some christian churches (Santo Daime and União do Vegetal) who use this tea and I see that are many bhakti there. Sometimes in the Santo Daime Churchs they do a 12 hours working dancing and chanting hyms in glorification of christian holy names. I don't see this nowhere.
Yes, there are other herbs and I study them too, but I think that ayahuaska is the mother of all herbs. This is what the shamans of the Amazon florest says and is what the people who studied the ayahuaska affirm. You should have to take a lot of herbs to get the same benefits.

All right, I can't say much since I am not an expert on ayahuaska. Suit yourself, if it's good for you. All is permitted that is not expressly forbidden.

Yes, I think the topic of betel is very important. I've been caught up in a project that involved doing a little research on betel, and I found that it is a well-known scientific fact that excessive (or even regular) chewing of betel will eventually result in a variety of oral cancers and ulcers. I already knew this but I needed scientific information to back it up. I've also noticed anti-betel publications by the Svaminarayan followers which featured pictures of the extreme cases of cancers.

How are we to reconcile this with the descriptions of pan-chewing in sastras? Caitanya ate it, the devotees ate it, Radhe and Krsna ate it, Narottama wishes to feed Them with it (karpura-tambule), Siva eats it, and so on. I took into account your comments about "clean pan" free from bhang, cannabis and other narcotics, but understand that even the so-called "clean" pan may also result in oral abnormalities. How to reconcile?

Would you mind giving me links to some of the studies you've read?

The actual project involved reading academic material in my local library about whether betel can be considered a narcotic of sorts or not, but here's some stuff I found on the Net. In most cases it tallies with what I have read as the "academic/medical" opinion:

"Betel contains a narcotic stimulant and may have some medicinal value. Habitual chewing stains the teeth." - www.encyclopedia.com/html/b1/betel.asp

"The betel leaf (La Trau) belong to the Pepper family. It contains a narcotic stimulant and may have some medicinal value. Habitual chewing stains the teeth." - www.vietmedia.com/culture/?L=traucau.html

"Betel contains a narcotic stimulant and may have some medicinal value. Habitual chewing stains the teeth." - www.factmonster.com/ce6/society/A0807313.html

"Definition: [n] seed of betel palm; chewed with leaves of the betel pepper and lime as a digestive stimulant and narcotic in southeastern Asia." - www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/betel+nut

"Some of the lesser known examples include Qat, raw coca, betel (a narcotic stimulant chewed in south asia since ancient times)," - www.adjunctcollege.com/Unit_Five_Summary.html

"Betel nut was my chosen narcotic," - www.geocities.com/paulo2020/betel.html

Cancer information can be found here - http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=slv1&ei=...el+cancer+ulcer

I just wonder whether it is mixing the betel nuts with cannabis/tobacco/bhang that causes cancers or ulcers, or if the betel nuts themselves eventually causes them.

Dude, when krishna is the supreme personality of the Godhead who is above all modes of nature, why does he care if you pour some liquid called "tea" in that bag of bones or not?

We want to satisfy ourselves by serving him,he is actually unattached to all that goes on still he is pleased for our pleasure.

I think people should worry about trying to place themselves in the mode of goodness for service unto Him than worry about the "following of the regulative principles" correctly. If you are situated in the mode of goodness , then slowly you will grow out of bad habits.

For me, I drink tea (chai-in hindi ) and eat chocolates.

So I don't think it is a big deal.

Well in one sense this is true, but then by the same logic, why would Krishna care if we poured a liquid called "whisky" into our bags of bones? As far as my understanding goes, to practise bhakti-sadhana is basically to change our lifestyles in a way that is pleasing to Krishna.


Yet how do we grow out of bad habits, especially concerning those relating to eatables? After all, Krishna gives some specific directions about food in the Bhagavad-gita; first He mentions that one must offer the food to Him, and later He mentions the type of food that is situated in the mode of goodness, as well as those relating to the modes of passion and ignorance. It goes without saying that Krishna will be most pleased by one who offers/eats food in the mode of goodness.


----

By way of amendment of my previous posting about betel chewing, I should also add that betel does not just stain the teeth, it rots them also.

Like Coca-cola?

Betel is more serious than Coca-Cola.

Believe me, I've personally seen the effect of betel on teeth. Coca-Cola is kid's stuff comparing.

I recommend white tea over green, red or black. It contains the highest levels of antioxidants and the lowest amount of caffeine of all types of tea. Plus, it has such a mild flavor (unflavored it tastes like plain old water) that you don't need to add any sugar to it. Also, it does not stain your teeth like the other types, due to its almost total lack of pigment. You can find it at RepublicOfTea.com, but if there is a World Market or other specialty grocer near you, they often sell it for a couple of dollars cheaper per tin. All of the flavors are good, but I particularly like the Orange Blossom, Asian Jasmine and Honeysuckle. The Orange Blossom is the most popular flavor. World Market is usually out of it, because it sells so fast that they can't keep enough of it in stock.

Green tea is second best, but all types have healthy antioxidants and much less caffeine than coffee.

White tea? I had never heard of this, but I'm not a tea drinker. I will try to track it down. Hilo is not exactly your big city, but we have a strong enough Asian influence that it may be possible. Thanks for the good tip, sir.

Jay Sri Radhe!

speaking of tipps:

nectar stuff:

japan- yamaguchi, first flush
- gyokuro ( the most excellent choice, health insurance!)

china white tea - white monkey
- silver hair

keiko tea - first class!

http://www.teaontheweb.com/about_keiko.html

Radhe!

Bunch of addicts!

Before our diksa from Sri Ananta das Babaji in early 1998, my husband and I were questioned by a senior vaisnava disciple of Sri Ananta das Babaji if we were drinking tea (read real tea, not herbal tea) or alcohol. He said he is questioning us not because it woud be any of his bussines, but because
we would have to stop it by the time of diksa.
We told him we don't use this substances since we joined Iscon and were so instructed by them. He agreed that this is one of a good disciplines that iscon imposes upon its followers.
So that incident clears it in my mind not to drink any caffinated or spirited drinks.
As a natural health care practitioner I can also confirm that there is ample of fine herbs with similair or superior medicinal properties than that of green tea. To mention but a few; ginseng, peppermint, gingko biloba etc.
Many naturopathic physicians nowadays prescribe decaffinated green tea instead of caffinated version. This is a smart choice if you want to use it for its medicinal values. And it might be wise to drink a lot of decaffinated green tea (for it contains lots of antioxidants) if you honour prasadi tambul on a regular basis, for we have learned that it is carcinma inducing especially in oral cavity...
But, for those who want to stick to caffinated green tea - a note of caution - green tea contains from 20 to 110mg caffeine per 150ml of tea. Very similair concentration as in a same amount of coffee. Caffeine is a stimulant of central nervous system, gastric acid, and pepsin secretion, and it decreases total sleep time among other effects. Its stimulating properties are though short term effects, whereas on the long term caffeine effects are somewhat opposite. On the long run caffeine users find it hard to stay awake without it, find difficulties with their digestion without caffeine intake and may become dull as an effect of decreased stimuli of central nervous system, etc.
So, yes caffeine refreshes you today, but tommorow you will find your stamina a bit lower altogether. And I didn't mention anything about the caffeine addiction in this post. Well, that is another bad side of caffeine.

Tungavidya Dasi

I have to question those figures on caffeine content. I have a chart in front of me that gives the following amounts per 5 ounce cup of beverage:

White Tea: 10 mg
Green Tea: 25 mg
Oolong Tea: 50 mg
Black Tea: 110 mg
Coffee: 190 mg

Also, I am somewhat surprised at Ananta Das Babji's prohibiting tea drinking. We both stayed at Kesi Ghat Ashram in Vrindavan at the same time in 1980 and tea was being served there every afternoon. Many babajis were partaking of it, but I do not recall if Panditji was drinking any.

Alcohol, well that's another topic altogether.

One thing is that there are many senior disciples and so forth who have their own conceptions, and do not seem to be all that concerned even when pointed out that Baba's conception may differ. Whatever you hear as the statement of some senior devotee, take it with a grain of salt. Also, take with a grain of salt most of what you hear as "Baba said". Too many times we see a scenario where a devotee who does not know English all that well asks Baba a question; Baba answers something else than the question, because he didn't understand it, and again the inquirer understands the answer in some other way than Baba intended. Then you get all these Baba said issues going around and confusing people. Even if you are a good English speaker and ask a question yourself, if the reply you get does not seem completely coherent with your question, please clarify the issue instead of trying to interpret the esoteric depths of the answer to reconcile the apparent incoherence. It is quite possible that your question was simply misunderstood.

I personally find it hard to believe that caffeine in all of its forms would be on the no-no list, especially given the fact that Baba has given an OK on tambul when asked, and prasadi-tambul was not particularly specified in the question. Tambul (not just the nuts, tambul means nut and leaf together) definitely has a stronger effect than tea, even if black tea.

The outcome of a quick Googling.







Add chocolate bars to the no-no list.

We never asked about it, it was told to us. This devotee also happened to be a retired doctor. I think the point Tungavidya wants to make is that tea drinking is not acceptable by all Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

With respect to Tungavidya Didi, in my experience amongst Gaudiya Vaishnavas outside Iskcon, tea-drinking, or even chewing of pan, is not regarded as serious, and is very common, even amongst Gosvamijis. This parallels the general view amongst Hindus, some of whom even believe, like the Japanese, that tea-drinking can be helpful in increasing alertness during meditation.

Of course, many Hindus believe that Marijuana/Ganja/Hashish is also helpful. I do not think Gaudiyas go that far, and I am rather sure that the majority of Gaudiyas would reject the taking of Ganja in any form. For one thing it is seen as more of a Shaivite practice.

But even in Gaudiya Math, according to my experience, Bhaktivedanta Swamiji's prohibition of tea was seen as unusual, a personal preference on his part. There may well be other Bengali devotees, such as the disciple of Panditji mentioned, who share Swamiji's views, but I very much think they are a small minority, and that their concern may be due to a special interest in health issues like Tungavidya Didi, which is most admirable.

Bhaktivedanta Swamiji would have first rejected tea when he was a Gandhian, rejecting all things British, along with milled cloth and all imported goods.

In South India, all Vaishnavas drink coffee, which is seen as the Brahmanas drink, advertised on billboards with a cartoon of a large fat Brahmana (with Vaishnava tilak) about to take his first sip from an enormous steaming French-style coffee cup.

I still remember my train trip South, one knew one had crossed the 'border' when the walla's cries of 'chai, chai, chai!' suddenly gave way to 'coffee-offee, coffee-offee!'.

I think this issue is a 'storm in a tea-cup!'. Sorry, couldn't resist that.

Chocolate is probably a different story. I did some searching on this a while ago and found that the chemical in chocolate is different enough from caffeine to give a rather different effect. I posted it on another board; let me see if I can find it.

I must excuse myself for giving you a sloppy statistics. My information was taken from Taber’s Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary and it says: The amount of caffeine in these beverages varies from 40 to 180 mg in 6 oz (180ml) of coffee, from 2 to 5mg in decaffeinated coffee, and from 20 to 110 mg in 5 oz (150ml) of tea.
So that means green and black included in the same estimate. I guess you broke it down to the information relevant in your statistics. Still, in my opinion the content of caffeine in green tea can not be so insignificant, otherwise why would some companies bother de-caffinating it? Maybe just for fanatics like me?

Has anyone noticed how some old Bengalis sometimes have a thing about offering advice?

I have a friend here, an old Bengali, who would like nothing better than to go over every detail of my life with me and explain how, in his opinion, I could do it better. And he doesn't like any dissent. It's a bit like talking to your mother.

One rarely hears the expression, 'In my opinion'. Rather that person's sometimes unusual views must be accepted, otherwise it is as if one is insulting that person, even just by disagreeing.

Of course, Bengalis very much adhere to 'respect for elders' and this problem may stem just from that.

When I was in my Gurudev's ashram he brought in a friend, an old Bengali. I have severe varicose veins for which I must wear orthopedic stockings or I get ulcers. This Bengali man came up to me and insisted, 'I can cure that'. I told him, 'There is no cure, the valves regulating the flow of blood are broken', which was shown to me on my specialist's ultrasound. It is like saying that you can regrow a missing limb. Still he insisted, 'No I can cure it! It is caused by kidneys (or liver, I forget)'. When I resisted, he walked away in anger. Not only did he never speak to me again, whenever I passed him on the street later, I would smile, but it was as if I was not there, he looked right through me.

Having experienced this several times before, I can confidently say, this is the Bengali way! Please, if you are Bengali reading this, do not take offence. Better that people discuss these things, otherwise outsiders can become confused when they have similar experiences.

This is precisely why I prefer to keep a bit of distance to a good majority of them.

Radhe Radhe!

my o my!

me so fallen.
this morning i tried drinking "gingko"-ginseng-stuff-tea, and it was pretty ok, but the energy and clarity of mind
was not the same as with nice japanese green tea.

until i will meet Srila Ananta das Babaji in person and he has time for such kind of lousy question,
i will stick to the world-famous principle of "accepting what is favourable" for bhajan.
and since i dont feel in any way distracted during my japa like for example using marijuana, i feel positive about it.
of course i know that one cannot accept everything which is "favourable" for bhajana , since someone may come up with :
"listening to Metallica" keeps me focused.
but anyway....

i´m so tamasic and until i come to that stage of no-more-needing-little-stimuli-to-stay-awake, i hang on to green tea,
and yes, in a lower dose,

with the use of green tea, i hardly got sick for now 6-7 years and i can stay perfectly awake in a peaceful
frame of mind sometimes from 3.00 a.m to 6. 45 a.m.

as a teacher with a full-time job, i´m not able to have a little snap -rest throughout my day.
its packed.

maybe Srimati Radhika will forgive me that little use of "bhogus-help".

Tarunji

By the way, what's that chai people drink everywhere in Braj? Is it just regular tea, or what is it? Nobody seems to be having a problem with that.

It's regular tea, with milk and sugar.

You should tell the bhang in the milk story!

No way man! It was an accident! Anyway, for anyone who goes on parikrama on a hot day around Giriraja, take your own cold drink with you or buy a cold drink in Jatipura or Govardhana!

No need to tell, we can guess what happened. Bad Luck (!).

Bhang Lassis are very popular. They even sell it outside Jagannath Temple in Puri when I was there, so I was told. Yes, fellow devotees, beware!

Or, don't believe such legends and drink while you can!

On a serious note, I have known a few devotees who have been long-term users of Ganja. In Iskcon I know one man who has had a habit since the 1960's and managed to conceal it for all these years. He was even a candidate for sannyas in the 1970's, and a temple president many times. When I last saw him a couple years ago he had the habit worse than ever, publically smoking now.

In Gaudiya Math, also, some Ganja smokers were attracted by Sridhar Maharaj saying that 'Ganja helps meditation' (see book 'Search for Sri Krishna').

And nowadays amongst the younger generation I know that taking Ganja is very common. I myself was a daily user for a couple of years, 30 years ago when I was a teenager. I stopped when I started daily meditation.

I want to say that the people I have known who keep up this habit are always damaged by it. Just like the old devotee I mentioned above, much of his life was ruined by Ganja in various ways. And I know people who have mental illness which is surely due to taking Ganja long term.

So I just wanted to tell anyone reading who may think Ganja is harmless to think again. Long term use is damaging. Better to avoid it, which I know most devotees do.

Yes, I second this. I have seen far too many examples of people ruined by cannabis.

Sridhar Maharaj actually said that ganja helps meditation?

From 'The Search for Sri Krishna: Reality the Beautiful', p21-22:

"Student: I have a problem. For ten years I've tried to take up this process. For ten years, I have kept from eating meat, fish, eggs. I avoid material things - I have no attraction for them. I have left all this behind. But there is one thing I want to give up and also I don't want to give up. This is ganja (marijuana).

Sridhar Maharaj: That is a small thing. There are three real difficulties: the first is women, the second is money, and the third, good name and fame. These three are our enemies. Marijuana intoxication is a small thing. Anyone can give it up easily. But these three things are the fundamental aspiration of every animal, tree, bird, man, or god....
We also have seen so many opium-eaters who have come here, joined the temple, and gradually left their habit.
Many so-called "sadhus' smoke marijuana. It helps concentration, but that is the material mind. It disturbs faith. It is an enemy to faith. No material intoxication, but only faith can take us to our desired goal..."

Further down the page I note that he does include tea and coffee, as well as betel, amongst the things that Bhagavatam 1.17.38 instructs us to give up. Which is surprising because his followers definitely do not see this as an absolute prohibition, like the Iskcon devotees do. The main struggle of most Bengali Gurus is to get their householder disciples to stop eating fish, which Bengalis in general find very difficult.

One Tamil friend pointed out that if South Indians realised that Sri Ramakrishna ate 'illish-mach', catfish (the most popular fish delicacy in Bengal), every day of his life, they would not be so enthusiastic about him. South Indians growing opposition to outside Hindu groups may stem from finding out how much the outside groups differ in their beliefs and practices.

See how insidious this weed is!

Radhe Radhe!

for all addicts:

the chinese method is also very useful. they do the tea like normal, with the thermometer and the two pots.
then they throw away maybe one little cup of the first (i dont know the word?!) making and pour the rest of the water over the
leaves a second time.
that means they throw away the first take because of the caffeine and tein and use the second take with mucho lesso addict-stuff.

keep smiling

Tarunji

Can I ask about this 'clean' betel? I understand that the bhoga-tambul consists of just the betel nut and leaf, is this true? No added ingredients such as the popular calcium paste?

Also, has anyone here consumed the prasadi-tambul? What effects did it have on your general perception and consciousness? Did the prasadi-tambul consist of just the betel nut and leaf, or did it have calcium also?

That's not milk, folks.

It might make a nice treat for Thakurji if you make it without the bhang. http://www.thecolorsofindia.com/recipes/bh...ki-thandai.html



The leaf is a bit bitter. I didn't feel much effect except that I wanted to drink water after. The supari + betel leaf made me feel warm and a bit dizzy- didn't like it. It's good to offer pan-supari plain, but I can't resist wanting to offer my thakurjis meetha paan with supari, crushed fennel, etc. and a lot of nice sweet things inside (not bhang, not any other nasty thing). Good for thakurji's digestion. Thakurji will definitely get a little drunk on this thing. So maybe a good thing to give Him before bedtime.

Thanks, because I was made aware of the intoxicating effect that betel-chewing has upon people, so I was wondering if plain (prasadi) tambul is a sort of natural intoxicant, or whether the intoxication occurred due to the presence of calcium paste that ordinary people add to it?

When you say 'supari', what exactly are you referring to? Stuff like 'Tulsi Gutkha mix'? Or other sweet stuff? I'm trying to track down the ingredient that causes the intoxicated feeling of 'lightheadedness' or 'high' as some would put it. I'm wondering if this is in the betel nut/leaf itself, or whether it is due to the addition of calcium paste.

The tambul leaves have a slight refreshing effect that may come across as surprising to someone unfamiliar with the experience. I've only had tambul once, and it was a plain leaf with the nut inside. I believe the leaf is the active ingredient there. However, I wouldn't say it is more of an intoxicant than tea, and is definitely not in the same range as nicotine in tobacco is.

I'm not familiar with the ingredients people mix in, the pan-wallahs you see seem to stuff a whole lot of stuff into them.

I believe, betel nut and supari are the same. They often shred the nut into small shavings and you eat it along with candied fennel after an Indian meal. I used to eat it for snack my whole life. And it does give some type of eupohoric effect. You kinda bounce off the walls if you eat enough. It is like a stimulant. That is why riksha wallas are addicted to it. It feels good while you are working hard cause it keeps you going.

My guess is the calcium paste helps to whiten the teeth since the pan ingredients make your teeth red.

The supari (betal nut) is intoxicating (yes, about as much as coffee I suppose). Betal (nut & leaf) is a mild aphrodisiac, which is why it is so appropriate that we offer them to Radha-Krishna.



I like the sweet one with fennel, candied fennel, rose, crushed supari, lots of nice things. If you want to sample, anyway please don't take just any paan; there can be tobacco, gutkha, yes even bhang in that. No suprises... or you might turn out like this guy...

Good one! That just made me laugh out loud...