The Bir Krishna Issue -

Madhava,

Honest research would show you that very reasonable members of Iskcon (and of other groups) wouldn’t touch Bir Krsna maharaja’s “insights” with a ten foot pole, what to speak of “appreciating” them. To use your choice phrase, it would be interesting watch Bir Krsna maharaja (if he were accountable for anything) come up with an explanation to his followers on why he is exchanging “realizations” with someone who believes his spiritual master and all the previous authorities of his mission to be essentially time-wasting fellows.

Everyone who can sniff polictics from a given distance knows that priority in Bir Krsna Maharaja’s life is to protect his master’s mission from the “destructive, demoniac influence of Narayana maharaja”.

Could it be that the both of you have this in common: that you would go to any length; make any alliance to destroy Narayana maharaja?

About two years ago Bir Krsna maharaja went to Vermont on a mission. He went to meet with Bhaktigaurava Narasingha maharaja, his godbrother and a staunch critic of Bir Krsna himself, to strike a deal; they came together to trade. Narasingha maharaja would help Iskcon destroy Narayana Maharaja, and in return Iskcon would recognize the “bonafideness” of Srila Sridhara Maharaja, the siksa guru of Narasingha maharaja. The meeting was a suckcess.

And if you think that Urmila dasi’s nomination is an “attack on the material energy”, you should give some credit to Narayana maharaja for that nomination.

Here's how:
Last year Bir Krsna maharaja was very worried about Narayana maharaja’s first visit to Mexico, a stronghold of Bir Krsna maharaja’s influence. So he stroke another deal. He told Urmila dasi that if she wrote a paper “exposing” the crookedness of character of Narayana maharaja, he (Bir) in return would line up all the ducks for her to be appointed first female guru in Iskcon. Urmila wrote a low class of a paper and the rest, as you know, is history.

How come when events interest you, you call them history, and when someone else brings relevants facts into question you dismiss them as politics?

Ananda

Dear Ananda,

I used to be disciple of Swami Bhakti Gaurava Narasingha Maharaja. I recall that time whenever he was speaking with Bir Krishna Maharaja,but the whole thing was about Iskcon admitting mistake about and recognizing Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, nobody did even mention Narayan Maharaja.No trade you are suggesting was ever involved. The whole thing you wrote is just like in Iskcon, devotees say:Srila Prabhupada said this or that...., just bunch of politics.

The fact is that Narasingha Maharaja doesn't like the preaching of Narayan Maharaja, but he never goes on to offend him and expose him as unbonafide. He has other things to do in his life, trust me.
By the way... Narasingha Maharajas siksa is also Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaja.How is that,that he didn't make a deal with Iskcon then,to recognize him too?

These are facts Ananda. I was around Maharaja then, when meeting with Iskcon was happening.
For your information, Madhavaji never did dismiss anybodys opinion,and label anybody. I can honestly say on this forum, that i never had such an amazing friend, siksa and Gurubrother, together with Radhapada Das.

I'd appreciate if you came up with an example of an "insight" you feel is questionable.



Now, I don't know to whom you refer as someone who considers his predecessors essentially as time-wasting fellows. Perhaps you could also be a bit more specific in this regard.



Oh, I see. This is what it boils down to. You don't like his attitude towards Narayan Maharaja. However, you cannot dismiss him because of this. I don't agree with the hostile tactics of Narayan Maharaja and his followers vis a vis ISKCON. In my opinion, they exemplify very poor consideration from their side.

Let me ask, have you ever discussed with Bir Krishna in person or even read anything he may have written on Narayan Maharaja? If you have, I am all ears. The way you paraphrase him does not jive with the attitudes I've seen in the numerous discussions I have had with him.



Why would I care to destroy Narayan Maharaja? For all I care, he can do whatever he wishes. You might want to tone it down a bit, the extent of your speculations and the rhetoric you put forth suggest that you have a strong emotional involvement with Narayan Maharaja's group yourself.



Doh, your evidence for this? It begins to sound like another one of those conspiracy theories; Jews, Reptilians, Illuminati, and the Antinarayanians.





Again, your evidence for this? I bet you don't know Urmila in person any more than you know Bir Krishna. Yes, I know that there are a number of wild speculations about leading ISKCON figures among Narayan Maharaja's followers, having been there myself. Frankly speaking, I was a bit shocked when I heard some of the legends going around there, passed on as factual information by senior preachers.



Now, what prompts you to say this? I can't find anything in this thread that would prompt such a statement.

At any rate, as I've told you before, I will gladly respond to any doubt, concern or allegation you may have, with one condition: I do not expect to see an emotional temper tantrum, I expect controversial discussions to be handled dispassionately and logically.

Just please don't make this another Narayan Maharaja temper tantrum thread.

Srila Narayan Maharaj has been around for decades, preaching his message, with good reception from Hindustanis because of his native facility in the language, but with a mixed reception from Bengalis, esecially other branches of Gaudiya Math. The fact is that Srila Narayan Maharaj is controversial amongst Gaudiya Math devotees. Only his Godbrothers and, for some unknown reason, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, wholeheartedly support(ed) him.

These are facts of history.

Suddenly in the last few years, Narayan Maharaj has acquired a western following. Indeed, his fanatical western followers, many very young, announce to the world that he is 'The Pure Devotee who walks amongst us'. And when we don't instantly line up on cue, the followers announce that we are 'trying to destroy Maharaj's mission'.

Excuse me if I find all this rather sad. History repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce. Or perhaps the other way around.

Bir Krishna Swami, with his 30 years experience in Iskcon, would have seen this pattern over and over again, and is therefore qualified by experience to minister to the victims of such potentially destructive cult formations. If that is what he is doing then I wish him well.

As a sociological thinker, Bir Krishna is mainly concerned in creating a devotionally conducive social environment for the devotees, an environment in which individuals can settle down and lead a spiritually and materially balanced life.

The recent movement of Narayan Maharaja with it's hit-and-run strategy of pulling in people and getting them (re)initiated is more or less an antithesis of stable social development, causing the overall growth of the Vaishnava-community go ass backwards.

But is it not worth all the social cataclysm, the tremendous benefit of hearing from a maha-bhagavat (assuming that NM is one)? Well, quite frankly speaking, most folks are yet to graduate the basic tenets of Bhagavad Gita and learn the five rasas by heart, and are a far cry of candidates for advanced topics. I've personally witnessed people, who are absolutely out of it, being canvassed out of ISKCON into the folds of the supposed rasika-preachers, only to later leave the practice of bhakti altogether -- mainly on account of lacking the safety net of a stable, supporting social structure.

If the group of Narayan Maharaja can uproot the concerning cult patterns evolving among them, developing respect for fellow Vaishnavas outside their group and placing emphasis on healthy congregational development, they have great potential for the future. Perhaps they can then become self-sufficient and stop fetching their followers from other Vaishnava-groups, as well.

I know Narasingha maharaja better than you (Tamal) do. I know things about him that could incriminate him with the FBI, for example. I know, trust me.
I know Bir Krsna maharaja. I wish I didn’t. Let’s just leave it at that.

I know Urmila dasi and the circumstances of her appointment. I don’t wish to give you evidence of my version because this would involve her relatives, and they should be left out of this.

I don’t know you though (Madhava), but I have been ready to consider what you say without asking for evidence at every turn.

I have plenty of evidence of questionable insights from BKM. But more than his words, his actions have spoken to me for longer than you probably know him yourself.

You may ridicule me as you wish but if admiring BKM’s insights is a matter of taste, then I am questioning your taste. I think that going through all that we all went in Iskcon and then somewhere else and to come full circle and end up admiring Bir Krsna’s ideas, is a pretty ridiculous proposition in itself. I am sorry but personally I feel insulted by such proposition.

Who are the people following Narayana maharaja today? They are mostly ex-Iskcon people who were desperately trying to find some substance somewhere else. They didn’t leave Iskcon because they were tricked by Narayana maharaja’s mob. Most of them were already gone from Iskcon before meeting Narayana maharaja. People leave Iskcon because of politicians like BKM.
I can’t believe you, of all people, do not understand that.

I think that the charge that Narayana maharaja’s group fetches their followers from other Vaisnava groups is an exaggeration. I think in some cases this issue with Narayana maharaj comes pretty in handy to cover up personal agendas out there.

I thought that your experience would bring the rest of us better news than the prospect of a Bir Krsna’s version of varnasram. I’ll bet you might just feel tempted yourself to suggest next that Narayana maharaja’s disciples would better off go and take (re)initiation from Urmila dasi. In that case, I will have to tell you, thanks but no thanks, I will leave the honor to you.

Ananda

So that's what is boils down to. You like BKM's vision of a society where devotees can settle down and leave peacefully provided they don't develop any curiosity for the preaching of Narayana maharaja.

Talking about conspiracy theory. For your information, BKM has broken the law already in his dictatorship at that school he runs in North Carolina. If it wasn't aburd paranoia what led him to see one single child (who happens to be initiated by Narayana maharaja) as a threat to the spiritual future of the entire community, what was it then that made him kick out this child, telling the kid's mother to go and send the kid to a public school? If it wasn't paranoia, it was plain dishonesty. There simply isn't a third option.

Do you have children Madhava dear? Do you value social life? What would you do as a parent if everywhere you turned for association you heard that you must suffer along with your child because you made the sad choice of giving a chance to the words of Ananta das babaji?

Ananda

I believe you do know him better. You sound familiar to me. I left Narasingha Maharaja Ananda, and i am certainly very, very happy about it.

What was all that stuff which could incriminate him, if I may ask?

TBD,

It's a secret between him and a few people. Nothing major. I mentioned so to give credibility to my claim of knowing him. I like Narasingha maharaja but I know he has serious issues against Narayana maharaja. He did make a deal with Bir because of these issues, otherwise he wouldn't bother. But you should know that...



Ananda

Ananda, you are entitled to your opinion, and some of the points you make are reasonable - the ones about freedom of association.

But I find your conspiracy theory far-fetched, and you seem unaware of the extent of the problem.

When Narayan Maharaj and his party tried to enter Sri Chaitanya Sarasvat Math in downtown Vrindavan 3 years ago, the gates were quickly shut in their faces by the temple managers. This is Math policy. It will happen anywhere that Maharaj's party tries to enter SCSMath premises. You thought it was a conspiracy between Narasingha Maharaj and Iskcon? No it's much bigger, and much older.

I have been outside Iskcon for 17 years, things were very 'hot' for me in the beginning too. I took the humble path, respecting the feelings of Iskcon devotees, avoiding confrontation, even when it was unjust. The Narayan Maharaj people, on the other hand, appear to deliberately seek confrontation at every opportunity. Why should we feel sorry for them?

They have collectively created their own problems.

I like his vision where devotees can settle down and lead peaceful, balanced lives. Now, it's not an issue of with or without Narayan Maharaja; he is not that big a player that he should be included in a larger scale social planning. However, I'm certain that Bir Krishna would object equally strongly if, besides NM's group, any other bunch of fanatics would arrive and start minimizing their guru, getting them reinitiated, and so forth.



Now, which law would this be that he has broken? How do I get the feeling you aren't exactly presenting the whole picture here? I bet it wasn't just a matter of this one child, but also his parents and their fellow NM followers who started hanging around and making their propaganda to people.



Well, I would probably not try to convince them that they are offenders at the holy feet of ADB and he is their only way of salvation; I think I would find a place where I am welcome and live my life in peace. I am not comfortable around fanatics anyway, it would be a relief for both me and my child (if I had one) to move on with our lives and avoid unhealthy sectarian attitudes. However, I doubt anyone would kick me out from anywhere as long as I behaved in conformance to their social rules.

Fascinating. Do you know this first-hand, or hear-say?



As I've said, you are most welcome to ask for evidence, and I will provide what I have. However, I expect the same courtesy in return.



Please, go ahead. I would love to hear some of those questionable insights. They were, after all, your first objection in this thread.


I haven't said I admire his insights. However, I have seen that the social revisions he has worked on in devotional communities are quite functional; much opposed to the generally dysfunctional ISKCON communities.

I am under the impression that good can be found anywhere, and it should be encouraged wherever it exists; sometimes it is hard to see good outside one's own group.

Do you think that a sociological analysis of the development of religious communities is a futile endeavor? Can it not benefit anyone?



To break the news, I was taking care of a NM congregation in Finland, and must have pulled a good majority of them out of ISKCON through propaganda regardless of the fact that they were quite happy in ISKCON themselves. New people, not long-time devotees.

Are you a follower of Narayan Maharaja? Have you been inside his group?



This is ridiculous. Please do us a favor and tone down that overly emotional approach. You are free to participate in the discussions here, but you are *not* free to give another shot at what you did last time, allowing your emotions to lead you to an endless, incoherent debate. Get a grip and take some distance to the situation. For all I can see, this is about to become another idiotic NM rant thread.

Is that the thing which was going on around the Millenium Bug 2000, and him collecting survival stuff at the Vermont farm?

By the way, i still don't believe that him and Bir Krishna Maharaja had a deal.

Dear everyone, Radhe !


Even if it looks like, I don’t really want to take part in any side of this discussion. First because I do appreciate all the good intention of any side and second, because that is not on me to do that.
But since I brought this point in the beginning of this thread, I may say something... (sorry).


The point is, I know this family, they are friends from North Caroline and I really felt sorry for what happen to their daughter.


According to the Vedic Culture, if someone comes to your home, even if he is your enemy, you should treat him as the best guest. So, that is why, when Madhavananda asked me to stay away from GM & Iskcon politician for while, I gave him my OK! But unfortunately the politician is going on, on and on and on… And that is what happens when we are discussing the actions of someone that holds a political position...

So, he may be your guest, Madhavananda-ji, and you may treat him well but, he is not following the same principle when he is back to USA.

For you Madhava-ji, that reside in Finland, he may be good friend that is just passing by to say hello, but for the others that has to live next door, it can be a real headache.

The thing is, I don’t really know this BK and his right hand Urmala personally, but so far, my ears never heard a single good word about these two personalities. I don't think I do have the right to say anything but I say because I know people that live right there, very next to all that and they do not have any good thing to say about the administration of the local Iskcon Temple. Not only that, the very Iskcon devotees have a very bad concept about that Temple. It is said that he does not let anyone say or sell any of his own Guru’sbook in the temple.

But straight to the point :


Please tell your friend that he has to reexamine ALL HIS WRITINGS and see where in this World, on the name of creating “Social Environment, “for Devotees” he can justify refusing a child or teenager that is looking for the association of devotees, and that is what she has been learning from the very beginning of her life… Where, as a Social Thinker, he will justify such ominous behavior of not accepting a child in a Guru-Kula ?

How can someone writes about “spiritually and materially balanced life”, if his own life is incoherent and questionably upside-down?

Do I think I'm better than him? Not! Do I think I can judge him ? Not! Why than I take my time to say something ? Because, it is just a matter of good sense that anyone who holds a public political position,like BK, and his GBCs friends, should not act against what they try to preach to others... Asking for an Innocent child to leave and educational organization, just because he disagree with her believes... it is way childish! and way political incorrect!

He may has to go to learn some more about Political correct actions.

I don't know what kind of violin does he plays when he is traveling, but over here he plays drum for a hard-rock-band...

Radhe !

Madhava,

You talk about your experience and I tell you about mine. You say you know this much because you were there and I will have a similar tale to tell, but this will go on indefinetely unless you at least pretend you admit that I have a little point.

I am not a follower of anybody in particular if you mean to ask whether I am committed to one particular personality. I know though, whom, or what kind of thing I don't want to follow anymore.

If you tell me that there is this Bir Krsna maharaja's ideal community on the horizon, then I welcome such but as it is now, there is logically no question that his attitude, his actions will lead to such a nice situation.

If at some point in history in Finland you went to an Iskcon temple to canvass for Narayana maharaja, that is your business, I am not concerned with that. If Narayana maharaja himself told you to do that than I would question him, not you. Yes, I have been to Narayana maharaja's lectures and read some of his books. I don't see there, in his preaching, this disturbance that BKM and others vehemently charge him of causing. Those mostly disturbed when he comes around are Iskcon leaders and maybe others like Narasingha maharaja who object to him pointing out what is simply a very known fact: that some of these leaders are not satisfying the whole of the devotee community, including many of their own followers since a long time already. Whether Narayana maharaja will satisfy the dissidents of Iskcon and others completely, or not, is an event in development. As per your case, he didn't.

But I would like to understand why, in this forum that lends itself to discussions of the highest subject, Raganuga bhakti, you side with BKM when he says that higher subjects are not for everyone, while for those who are ready for a change, ready for something higher than "I am not this body" and so on, you don't seem to question why, for this class of people, there is no place in that community. Let Bir superimpose his ideal to what is presently there: he has all the freedom and the elements required to do it. As a sociological thinker and reformer (oops!) he is bound to do it. Why doesn't he do it? Why those in his community who want to probe into higher subjects have to ask his permission to do so, and if they don't, he will kick them out? People go to Narayana maharaja for their own private and wide-ranged, varied reasons. Some happen to go there to find an alternative to the tired, embarassing "you-are-not-this-body and only-prabhupada-saves" present proposition.

This suggestion of yours that a family is there in Bir Krsna's community "hanging around" to canvass for Narayana maharaja is, in my opinion, a discortesy unbefitting your position and history, unless you know exactly what you are talking about.

The parents of that child who was barred from being (re)enroled in Bir's school are reasanable, balanced, kind average strugling devotees whom no one in Bir's (present) community object to being there. They have always respected Bir's temple there and have had their children attend Bir's school for two years as already initiatees of Narayana maharaja. NM personally instructed these children to be respectfull of everyone in the local Iskcon community and honor the school as Bhaktivedanta Swami's own. These were model students (as per Urmila's words to the parents), and even now, when everyone else practically gave up on the school this family still chooses to send one of their children there. But Bir Krsna rejects the child whimsically, with the only explanaition that he rejects the student because... he can. An attorney has given an opinion on the matter and says that technically this is ilegal. It is discrimination based on religious orientation.

You can bet whatever you want whether these are facts or fancy, but one of your friends, member of this forum in fact, among other people from different groups, suggested that the school be sued, but the parents choose not to, so to respect the will of Bir. If you do a little historic research of this case you will find that mature, independent devotees in that community were hard pressed not to express formally their disproval of Bir's course of action in this case.

You may say that Bir's social revisions of devotional communities seem quite functional but this so called functionality you see there is not all inclusive. Therefore this vision is sectarian and as such it is against the principles of bhakti.

Can I just make a request here?

Please do not continually point out that I am not good at debating because I am emotional. Unlike you, I am not experienced in writing back and forth on a public forum. This is hard for me as it is; I am not fanatically going around preaching that Narayana maharaja is people's only chance of salvation. Why should you expect me to respond for those who might be displaying this attitude?

You did endorse Urmila's nomination for guru. If you think her qualified to be guru of anyone else, why not of you, yourself? My reaction to that hypotesy, that she would be my guru, is, for the time being, thanks but no thanks. Am I going to hell because of that? There is no place for me in a devotee society because of that?

So what is your objection to my reaction?

It has always been Madhava-is-the-owner-of-this-web-site thread, and no matter how much moderation you exercise here, your views will be questioned if you are not consistent. That is what I see there now. With all due respect.

ananda

Haribol!

I had been reading old post for the last 3 weeks, specially those in reference to Srila Narayana Maharaja or Gaudiya Math. The underline feeling that I found from those posting of Madhava among others is envy. First, I did not want to say anything, but maybe and this is maybe, he would reexaming the nature of his own feelings. With due respect. It is clear.

I appreciate the lectures, mp3, etc; from this website. Thank you.

I have split these posts into a separate thread, since the discussion seems to have shifted around Bir Krishna Maharaja.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines "envy" as "painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another, joined with a desire to possess the same advantage."

I do not know Madhava's mind, or his motivations. But he surely does not believe that Bir Krishna Swami or Narayana Maharaja have any "advantage" of which he is resentful, that he desires to possess. His actions suggest, instead, that he has deliberately chosen a path that he knows will deprive him of the supposed "advantages" held by those two gentlemen.

I have learned, over the years, that the accusation of "envy" is far too frequently made as a kind of cult-reflex "thought-stopper" by individuals who don't even know what the word "envy" means. Tell your supporters that your opponent is "envious," and you have effectively said not only that his opinion is incorrect, but that holding his opinion is a sign of spiritual sickness.

At best, there is an antiquated (read "obsolete") definition of "envy" that simply means "malice." But if you want to say that Madhava is malicious in his comments about Narayana Maharaja, why not just say so?

Perhaps because this would seem even more uncouth than accusing someone of "envy," and would be harder to prove?

Perhaps because the charge of "malice" lacks the same cultic thought-stopping associations as the word "envy"?

Perhaps because if you attacked "malice" in your opponent you would have to recognize that some of your own lineage's heroes might be guilty of the same flaw?

Madhava, perhaps it's time for you to speak up. Which of Narayana Maharaja's advantages are you secretly coveting?

All right, I guess my cover is blown away and I have to come clean as to who I actually am and what my agenda is.

My name is not, in fact, Madhavananda das. None of you have met me in person, and have had no methods of confirming my actual identity. All the while you have believed that I am a follower of a certain babaji. I have pulled the wool over your eyes. Here are the facts:

My actual name is Maharaurava Das, I am an undercover ISKCON agent. I am the unseen right hand of Bir Krishna Maharaj, who has secretly bestowed unto me diksa-mantras and two alternate siddha-pranalis which I swap according to the natural flow of my mood. I first infiltrated into the group of Narayan Maharaja and made friends with the leading figures therein, all the while gathering strategic information on them and reporting to ISKCON Central Intelligence Agency of my discoveries.

Eventually, as I tracked down the roots of Narayan Maharaja in search of the unknown influence he encountered earlier on in his life, which made his approach radically different from the rest of the Gaudiya Math, the trail led me to Vraja, and to the dreaded babajis of Govardhana and Radha Kunda. Having gathered enough intelligence on their ways, we are now armed and ready to destroy Narayan Maharaja, taking over his movement and conquering the world in thirty days.

Why do I reveal all of this? Would it not be better for me to remain undercover despite the suspicions voiced here? Well, the fact is that at this point in our scheme it no longer makes any difference; it is too late to counter our infernal conspiracy. We are the overlords. Surrender or perish.

Is that all right with you?

I, for one, welcome our new rasika overlords...

Actually we want to confiscate his cool slippers, we've been watching them for years now, but he hardly ever takes them off.

Returning to a serious tone, I understand that there is concern over Bir Krishna's having removed one child / teenager from the North Carolina gurukula and requesting his mother to send him to a public school, all of this on account of their affiliation with Narayan Maharaja.

Now, if we look at this from a minute perspective, the feelings of this child / teenager and his parents, then a sentiment of compassion may arise, a thought that whoever did this must be a bad person.

However, if you take the grand perspective, the issue changes its face altogether. Picture the scenario:

ISKCON has a school for the children of its members. Members of Narayan Maharaja's group have repeatedly proven themselves capable of systematically eroding others' faith in their guru and the path they have chosen. Most of Narayan Maharaja's Western followers are former members of ISKCON.

A child / teenager participating in the ISKCON school becomes affiliated with the group of Narayan Maharaja along with his family. They gradually assimilate values akin to others in the group of Narayan Maharaja, including the tendency to consistently downplay the role of others' gurus in favor of Narayan Maharaja, whom they consider the saving hope of ISKCON.

In such a scenario, any wise leader would take steps to ensure peace in his community and protect his community from becoming the object of systematic attempts of conversion. Certainly removing a child / teenager from a school is a hard decision to make, but choosing the smaller of two evils, namely hurt feelings of an individual versus disturbance in the larger community, is a choice that any responsible leader would make.

Harisaran, you have not met the person in question, and I am well aware of how the followers of Narayan Maharaja and others associated with them regard him. You seem to say awfully much of him based on what you've heard from others.

A wise person will research both sides of the story, and voice opinions only after examining them carefully. Why don't you just write him a letter and voice your concerns. I have done this on several occasions, and have received satisfactory explanations.

Just to give you an idea of how clueless the hearsay you hear can be:


This is just plain absurd. Not allowed to say of his own guru's books? What do you think he gives morning lectures on? Does he speak on How to Make Friends and Influence People? Or maybe Srimad Bhagavatam after all? I wish I had a picture of their temple's book store to post here just to make a point.

This proposal is pretty interesting. So, we suppose that BK doesn't know how to write documents himself, and therefore he engages others in writing documents and gives high positions in reward. Quite interesting, quite interesting, I have to admit.

By the way, what is it that I receive in return for supplying strategic information on the weaknesses of Narayan Maharaja's group? A pack of biscuits, perhaps? Have you also overheard our meeting where we made the deal, or have you heard of it from your sources?

I think it would be appropriate that you told us who you are and what your affiliations are. You seem to know everything about all the persons we discuss about, down to their social security number and shoe size, so you could add to the credibility of your claims by identifying yourself.

By the way, speaking of freedom of association, did I ever mention that while managing the meetings of NM's congregation in Finland I once wrote to him, asking some questions which apparently his group was not very comfortable with. At that time, I was back in Finland, while most others were in Vrindavan for Karttik. (I was out of money after the programs we had at the summertime etc.) My letter was shown around to people, both to those in our congregation and to others, and people were cautioned not to associate with me, because I had become contaminated, offensive and so forth.

When people finally returned to Finland, the first one of them called me after about one month from the date of their return, one person was brave enough to eventually visit us a couple of times, and for the rest, we never heard from them really. Oh yes, with the exception of one lady, who wrote to my wife that she was afraid of reading her letters, and therefore cannot respond to whatever it is that she wrote to her.

You have my ears, I shall write him a letter. You can PM and give me his e-mail.


This is just plain absurd. Not allowed to say of his own guru's books?

---

The thing is, my wife met a Indian Lady, A.C.B Swami's disciple that went there just to make a dance apresentation, and in the Temple, she was stoped by a devotee that told her to not sell any Prabhupada's books but BK and others that is recommended by him.

But any way, I have to get more close to it. I may call my friends in N.C. to check out again.

Ok! But what about the rest... Gurukula case ?

ys

Would you mind telling us your real name, please?

I am quite certain that everyone follows someone. Whom do you follow? Would you honestly name the prominent contemporary spiritual leaders whose views have influenced you to a noteworthy degree?



Yes, in fact he told me to "dance on their heads" like Krishna did when he defeated the venomous serpent Kaliya.



How do you feel about his preachers coming over to arrange programs right next to ISKCON facilities and inviting the entire congregation to participate, and thereafter canvassing many of them to accept re-initiation?

As for the gurukula-issue, I am quite well informed about the events that took place. If people do not keep their gentleman's agreement to not canvass on behalf of their guru, I cannot see a valid reason to prolong their family's presence in the premises of ISKCON. You know full well the events which took place there.

That's why I'm asking you to tell us your real name and your connection with the family you talk about. Just so that we can put things in a proper context.



Look, I am not a follower of Bir Krishna Maharaj. We are in good terms, but I do not agree with all of his views. We have, nevertheless, learned to focus on the common issue instead of quarreling over that which is not common.

I also agree that those who do not know the basics of bhakti-tattva should not go to higher topics right away, since the very foundation of the realm of lila is tattva-siddhanta. If you read the books of Ananta Das Baba, you'll find the same conclusions therein. This is also the policy we have with the books we publish in English. You'll come to see how we first lay a good foundation of siddhanta, and publish the more esoteric texts later on.

I have heard Bir Krishna discuss more advanced topics in congregational meetings; many among the congregation were very enlivened to hear a discourse on the viraha of Sri Krishna during His presence in Dvaraka, as well as the nature of the viraha of His beloved ones in Vraja. I have to admit enjoying the class of Brihat Bhagavatamrita myself, too.

It is not that Narayan Maharaja has a monopoly on so-called "higher topics". In fact, if you follow the themes of the lectures he gives, it's not all that high. And frankly speaking, even the "high topics" he speaks are not that high.



I do have a fairly good picture of the events which took place, straight from the source. Feel free to fill us in with your version if you wish. Can you honestly say that there was no canvassing and no attempt to invite NC congregation to visit Narayan Maharaja's preachers, and that no-one was encouraged to approach NM for further instructions, perhaps leaving behind their present guru?



So, they were there for two years as already initated devotees. What, then, suddenly made Bir Krishna freak out and show the door? He just went goo goo, or is it that perhaps some events took place which lead to the decision that it is in the best interest of the community to separate the family in question from among them?



Fill me in with names and e-mail addresses, I'll gladly contact them and do my homework.



All right, I'll do my best. However, I hope that you understand the fact that precisely because of my experience with public forums I abhor emotionally loaded posts, having witnessed too many times the chaos to which they lead.



No, I did not particularly endorse it. I have commented on the principle of a woman becoming a diksa-guru. Whether it be Urmila of ISKCON or anyone else, that is irrelevant. For all you know, I might consider every single person in ISKCON and Gaudiya Math disqualified from being a guru. And again, perhaps I wouldn't. It is not in my interest to make public comments on such issues. I prefer to examine the basis, the theology, the philosophy.

The night 5 years ago I met Narayan Maharaj, he had been invited to the home of an extremely wealthy Indian family, whose uncle is a GBC (no names) and who had gripes with Iskcon because their relatives had been asked to make their financial dealings more transparent, since there appeared to be some innapropriate financial arrangement. These were disciples of Tamal Krishna Swami, who was then still alive.

Narayan Maharaj sat down with them and excitedly told them, first in Hindi, then in English for the 'benefit' of us, the group of westerners standing nearby (mostly his initiated disciples),

'Swami Maharaj (Prabhupada) told me on his deathbed "Take care of all these monkeys" ', here he indicated us with a plainly contemptuous sweep of his hand. He repeated this statement several times.

The Indian couple were embarrassed by this. They were clearly not pleased to hear westerners referred to as 'monkeys' but then they had lived in the west for long, while this was Maharaj's 3rd or 4th visit.

I was flabbergasted. We know how much Srila Prabhupad had to endure Indians slighting his disciples, how often he defended them against racial taunts, which ultimately reflected on him as their Guru.

Even if Prabhupad had said such a thing, perhaps in a delirium, in his final days, the way Narayan Maharaj used the information, the way he made that statement that night, was a very cheap and low act.

Does anyone believe that Srila Prabhupad said this on his deathbed? Perhaps he did say, 'Keep an eye on my disciples, help them in the things they do not know'. Without a doubt, they needed help performing Prabhupada's funeral, and Narayan Maharaj was the best person to help with this.

I personally do not think that anyone who behaved in the way I witnessed that night is fit to be a leader, in whom large numbers of innocent gullible devotees place enormous faith, believing he 'loves' them, 'monkeys' as they apparently are!

He reminded me of the old 'Iskcon Gurus' at their worst. Say Bhagavan or Bhavananda. I think Ravindra-Swarupa's assessment of him is entirely accurate, and that the GBC have been entirely fair and judicious.

This has nothing to do with Raganuga. We also speak on this website of problems devotees encounter with the Babajis in Radhakunda, to keep silent on such issues is wrong. Devotees have a right to know.

Will you leave him an anonymous message, too?

I find it that people easily say things anonymously or under a pseudonym, but back off when they would have to say it signed with their own name. What do you think, should we return to the "register and then post" policy? It would at least bring up the threshold of leaving a "screw you" message a little bit.

I hope your heart is neat and clean and your meditations are smooth and flowing as ever. Remember us poor souls when you roam about in the pastures of Vraja. We are still living in this world for the most part and occasionally have practical matters to discuss.

Dear Guessing,

I am not amazed at all by statements of people like you.People like you, come on certain Forums to try and show themselves like only solution in this material world for other people.
First try to get informations how they really are from proper source, to represent your views anywhere. Try to respect other people and their views.

You don't know Radhapada Das or Madhavananda Das at all.Yet, you speak about them with language which you have learned from people which call others:demons, karmis, monkeys etc. You unfortunately speak language of a cult.

You must be very learned person and big mahatma, whenever you promise big talks.
You may write clowns of hate(who is that you are thinking of?), but you wear crown of hate.

Also try to get some self esteem:I know you don't care what I am saying...this are your words, and then you write to everybody: goodbye and that we are too deep in it, like we are not worthy of your divine attention.

At least you can write who you are, but you rather choose to hide yourself, and write horrible things about sincere devotees.
You just came here to find faults, not to contribute and ask questions in humble and devotional manner.This world is not made up only of black and white color.Try to find rainbow colors in your life.
With such attitude, you may just represent some really aggressive cult.
My best wishes to you, that you find some really super advanced magic helper devotees for your association.

Ananda,

Are you possibly Acyut- ananda, Bhaktivedanta Swamis ex-sannyasa disciple, or other Acyut ananda, disciple of Narasingha Maharaja from Bost-on?

If you don't want to write who you are, i am fine with that.

I don't think he is either.

Yes, it is exactly an issue of selling books inside the temple, I hear. The temple room is not a place for selling anything. I don't think they're selling either of Maharaja's two small books there either, since they've been out of print for years.

There are always two sides to the story, if not more. To draw conclusions after hearing only one side is not wise. The subjectivity of an individual's emotionally colored experience alone should make it obvious that any claim needs research and multiple angles of view from which to look at it.

We don't log unsigned complaints which criticize just about everyone here. If the "Guess" poster cares, he can get copies of what he posted from me.

So I can see you had your chat with BKM today. How's Bir?

My, oh my, who is throwing a tantrum now?

It looks like you enjoy bed time stories, so here is my version of the story: The big Bad Bir came to some devotees' house, unaccompanied, so there wouldn't be any witnesses, and...

Seriously, that little girl in North Carolina is just sooo happy to have been sacrificed; fresh meat in the slaughterhouse of public education for the greater good of Bir's ideal devotional community.

I can just see the expectations of Hari Saran; lucky fellow out there hopeful his kid will be next...

I'll tell you my identity in the future, I promise, when I get my sidha pranali. I am just hurring out to the airport now to go to NC and get it from Bir.

Madhava, how can you expect anybody take you seriously after you make a spectacle of yourself
in this fiasco of a case? And to think that we all looked up to you for insights...

My evidence for all the facts I have presented here is my friends' pain.

Ananda

TBD,

No, I don't want to write here who I am. I am sorry but I just don't trust Madhava anymore. He is under the influence of Bir Krsna maharaja and, to me, this is not good.

I am not any Acyutananda but don't worry, you don't know me and telling you my identity wouldn't make any difference because I am just a face in the crowd, really. I was somewhat impressed by things I was reading here in this site until Madhava came up with this mind blowing of a surprise.

I try to keep the Narayana maharaja topic at bay but it is clear to me now that this is what keeps Madhava going; his hatred for that man...

In the future I will write to you in private.
Sorry about all this secrecy now.

Dear Ananda,

I'll try to maintain a neutral stance on this issue since for obvious reasons I have not heard about this Gurukula issue, Urmila's nomination and all those issues. For the record, I have also supported Urmila's nomination; not because she is Urmila, but because it would be a modernizing move for ISKCON to be "in touch" with the 21st Century. Spiritually speaking, if she is a qualified candidate then so much the better.

I understand that you have serious concerns about Bir Krishna Maharaja which you most probably feel are true. However, you don't really seem to be very clear in the issue of evidence and factual points. I believe Madhava has been quite reasonable in asking you to provide factual evidence for your claims.

That said, may I personally say that Madhava is one of the most friendliest compassionate Vaishnavas I have ever had the pleasure of meeting? Sure he may get a little tense at times, but then, doesn't everyone?

Madhava believes that he is confident that he knows the facts of the issue at hand because he has done the research and spoken to the individuals concerned, such as BKM. Is it really that unreasonable to ask you to do the same? It can't hurt to get confirmation for a few things? I understand that the issues in particular are of a very sensitive nature and you don't want to 'blow the lid' so to speak, but is it impossible to provide more concise details?

Your reluctance to reveal your actual identity speaks more for the credibility of your views than the things you write. Anyone can tell any damn stories and refrain from signing them.

Are you by chance Rama das, the very father of this kid at gurukula, and the person who played a key role in trying to pull people over to Narayan Maharaja's folds from the North Carolina community some two years back? I remember hearing of the events back then already. If it's your daughter that is the kid who was at the gurukula, it explains much about why you have an axe to grind in this issue.

I hate to say it, but the more you run away from disclosing your real identity, the more your credibility flows down the drain.

Oh yes, just to make it clear: I am not some sort of bucket boy of Bir Krishna. Do you think I've never disagreed with him? I do not alter my views to be a nice guy with someone. Most people just are smart enough to keep out of the controversies, and those who don't, have to live with the fact that I disagree. If you can present a honest version of the events which took place, I will give it due consideration, just as I give to any other accounts of the story related to me.



Let the audience be the jury. I believe I have given a fair treatment of the evidence I have encountered thus far. You have not been the most convincing of witnesses.

Is there a particular reason for your secrecy over your identity? Would revealing it perhaps weaken the credibility of your statements?



This may be something he has to take up with his daddy rather than Bir Krishna.

So, Hari should stay away from me if he desires the best interest of his family.



So, everybody has joined your party now? It is interesting to see that the axe you have to grind is so heavy that you not only lift it against Bir Krishna, but against anyone who doesn't reject and denounce him as you do.

I think it is you who is out there to destroy someone, and you project this frustrated urge to others, such as to my desiring to destroy Narayan Maharaja. The world you see is a mirror. Think about that.

TB prabhu,

Hare Krishna. What was your name when you were with Narasingha Maharaj?

Dear everyone, Radhe Radhe !

I just want to say a few words at this time. All this BK's case is taking a lot of my precious time. It will be probably my last post in here.

One thing I would like to make very clear:

Madhavananda is one of the most advanced devotee a ever have been (virtually) in touch. He has been doing a great service for the Vaishnava Community and I and many others, have been benefited by that Seva. Therefore, there should not be any doubt about my appreciation.

His relationship with BK, that I may have my own views about, has nothing to do with our friendship.

The Gurukula case that has been pointed out is a fact, BK refused to accept the Ramdas's daughter (teenager) and asked to send her to a public school.

My point on this issue is not focus only on BK's attitude but many others Gurukula's organizers that does that.

My real calling is not for that isolated case in particular, but for this type of control that the GURUKULA Institution is under. In other words, there should not be mixed interest in an Educational Institution like GURUKULA, other than teaching KC and the regular teachings as any other school.

I personally never heard that any school out there, (in the real world) accept or reject children based on their believes.

As Vaishnava das said:



If that is really the case, and she is suppose to be considered the first 21st Century's Western-Guru-Lady, they do have to come up with the 21st Century Gurukula. Because, if not, the whole thing is just a joke.

I can actually suggest a very good name for Urmila's school:

"The 21st Century Padma School of North Caroline for Krishna Consciousness"



Yours,

If I may point out, it has been pointed out as a fact that BK requested Ramdas's daughter to continue her studies in a public school instead of their gurukula. This has not been in dispute. What has been in dispute is whether BK had good reasons for the move he took. Some have suggested that BK suddenly moved the girl out of the gurukula for no valid reason at all. Other sources suggest that her studies were discontinued because the family, including the girl (who may have become implicated without understanding the consequences of her actions), took active steps to persuade ISKCON members to attend functions in which they would be exposed to propaganda aiming to minimize the worth of their guru and to move on with their spiritual lives under more able guidance.



Harisaran is making an important point here.

What are the implications of friendship? Does it mean that you must agree with the views of your friend? It does not. Does it mean that you must defend your friend, even if he was wrong? It does not. Does it mean that you should object if your friend is accused of something without presenting credible evidence? Yes it does.

I for one am not prepared to defend or protect anyone, friends or otherwise, if the available facts prove otherwise. However, until a fair treatment is given, I am not prepared to accept that bad qualities or deeds are attributed to innocent persons.

===

Besides, I am beginning to wonder the point Ananda attempted to make. In the posts he has made in this thread, Ananda essentially suggests that my friendship with BK is unbefitting and makes my character and insights questionable.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that BK did discontinue the studies of a youngster in their gurukula without a valid reason, and additionally he is not very fond of having Narayan Maharaja preach around his congregation. Does this really make him so bad that whoever comes in contact with him and is in friendly terms with him becomes also quite bad? I seriously don't think so.

===

What a fascinating thread. Though the topic around which it revolves is probably quite irrelevant to most of our audience, it does provide many valuable lessons to us.

This sentence is priceless. Put it in a page of endorsements, Madhava:


'Surprise yourself, on Raganuga.com!
You thought you'd seen it all,
But you ain't seen nothing
Till Madhava blows your mind!'

or, apologies to Shakespeare:
'There are more things on this website than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio!'.

For the record, I have many of Narayan Maharaj's books, and find them valuable and helpful. I have also met several Gaudiya Math acharyas who I have been very impressed with and regard as saintly persons.

I lived near Srila BV Tirtha Maharaj's Gaudiya Math in Radhakunda last year, and was very impressed with the devotional program and the care which that Math gave to its devotee guests, many of them women and children. It is sadly rare amongst Gaudiyas that women and children are treated well by Bhikshus, and the Gaudiya Math is exemplary in this regard, Iskcon should also study the GM's wonderful care of pilgrims.

But when people make claims about someone trying to 'destroy' someone's mission, I have personally witnessed things which have a strong bearing on the case, as I've indicated.

Hari,

I billion that on billionth potency.
His association is priceless, and i am writing this not as a fan or some weirdo, this is just the whole truth.
He always helps everybody, and understands everybody.

Dear Ananda/DV,

I am not Prabhu.I am Dada,Das,Dasji,Da,Dadaji,Dasa...Prabhu is reserved for Sri Sri Pancha Tattva.I am just das,and i am really happy about being Das.
My Gurumaharaja is in renounced order for half a century and more, and He always writes just His name and Das at the end. Disciples don't wash His Lotus feet on His birthdays too(rarely anybody even knows His real birthday date), and He doesn't have special servants, and many other innumerable nice things about Him....


I will write to you my name, no problem, but you have to be honest first as a guest, and write your name. What do you think?

I totally agree with you !

yours,

I think I'll print it out and glue it on the wall!

That is not true Tamal Baran Dude, Madhava does not help everyone and understands everybody. He is not helping Hari Saran's friend in NC and he definitely does not understand Bir Krsna Maharaja.

Ananda

I think it is not hard to understand that one cannot please everyone simultaneously. However, to help and to make happy may not always be the same thing. Sometimes making someone face reality is a good way of helping them.

Perhaps Tamal Baran meant that I try my level best to help those who ask for help, and I try my level best to understand whoever I come in touch with. I am undoubtedly limited in my abilities.

That being said, I don't think my opinion would be much different in this particular case even if I wouldn't know Bir Krishna Maharaj in person.

I do not understand your objection to Madhava's cordial relationship with Bir Krishna Swami.

Shouldn't a Vaishnava strive to be compassionate to ALL? If there is a fault in Madhava's relations, it is NOT that he is cordial with Bir Krishna Swami, but rather that he isn't as cordial with the other aggrieved parties. Of course, the other aggrieved parties have not come to his country and expressed an interest in discussion; if they did, I suspect that Madhava would be equally willing to be cordial with them as he is with Bir Krishna Swami. Except that they appear to have been told that Madhava should be shunned as a severe offender. But that shunning is not coming from Madhava.

I see contacts like Madhava's as very good and positive. I have been surprised, in the last decade in particular, to observe that a surprising number of senior ISKCON leaders are feeling two very difficult competing "pulls." On the one hand, they have devoted their lives to ISKCON and have no material prospect of maintaining themselves outside the institution. So they are highly motivated to stay within ISKCON. But on the other hand, they have lost their faith in the "absolutist sectarian" view of Gaudiya Vaishnavism promoted by the GBC and other institutional arms of ISKCON. So they feel trapped within an institution whose absolutist sectarian aims they do not truly support.

Should they simply be courageous and leave, trusting that they will find their way outside ISKCON? That's not a decision I can make; each individual needs to make that decision individually. Some prefer to stay in their leadership positions and work for positive change as they are able. Typically, because they cannot much affect the doctrinal or institutional issues to which they object (e.g. the "jiva issue" and the "guru issue" and the "no siksa outside ISKCON" issue), they turn for solace to "community development" issues.

And while community development cannot produce correct siddhanta by itself, one can hope that in another generation or two, healthy Western devotee communities will be more self-sufficient, balanced, educated, mature -- and as a consequence better able to discover the correct siddhanta for themselves, rather than accept it by intimidation or by fiat from an institution on which they are utterly dependent.

So contacts like Madhava's have great potential for good, especially to the extent that they can influence leaders who may feel "trapped" in their positions. Machiavelli and Canakya Pandit might opine that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." If that's Bir Krishna's sole motivator in his dealings with Madhava, then that's a great shame. But it shouldn't cause Madhava to miss out on the opportunity to be a positive influence on an ISKCON leader who is in a position to be a positive influence on many others under his care.

My door is not closed; "knock, and it shall be opened to you". However, as you enter my house, act like a gentleman / lady. I believe that is not too much to ask. In other words, I do welcome guests, but I am not too fond of people coming to my house to preach against my guru and to aggressively convert me to their views; unfortunately this is the style of "house-call" some preachers do.



We had a very cordial relationship already back in my days in ISKCON. For obvious reasons, it became less cordial when I joined the group of Narayan Maharaja; and in all honesty, I have to admit that the decrease in cordiality came for the most part from my side. As I moved on with my life, it was merely a matter of restoring an old friendship.

So your opinion is pre-conceived.

"The recent movement of Narayan Maharaja with it's hit-and-run strategy of pulling in people and getting them (re)initiated is more or less an antithesis of stable social development, causing the overall growth of the Vaishnava-community go ass backwards."

This is priceless too! Didn't anybody notice?

I'll bet you will loose Hari Saran, if not already. But don't worry, you still have THE TRUTH. And your website.


Oh, yes, and you still have the friendship of Bir Krsna swami.

But the best of it all is that this outcome has absolutely whatsoever nothing to do with politics.

The same Hari Saran who posted the kind comments to/about Madhava at the top of this page? I doubt it. It appears to me that Hari Saran and Madhava have figured how, as mature people, they may have some disagreements and different perspectives, yet still respect and appreciate each other. Yet from your post, it sure sounds as though you would take pleasure in seeing discord among these nice Vaishnavas. What kind of an attitude is that?



And what's wrong with that? Again, your apparent notion of friendship as something bad is quite unbefitting a Vaishnava. I hope I'm misinterpreting your post.



Perhaps you need to work on your communication skills. Or perhaps I am misinterpreting you. But from what I read, I see that Madhava is far more open to reevaluating "the truth" than you are. You are the one who seems to believe that you have "THE TRUTH" and that all others who don't share your perspective are engaged in devious politics.

Maybe I am naive, or maybe I am misinterpreting your posts. But they sure seem to convey a mean-spirited attitude, unbefitting a Vaishnava -- and quite unlike Madhava's "I have my opinion based on the facts as I understand them, but would be open to new information that might change my opinion."

As one of the moderators of this website, I am requesting the unregistered user "Ananda" to cease from further postings until he identifies himself, his real name.

It is easy to say things anonymously you would never dare to say under your real name. That's something to think about.

Ananda,

You are leaning on the relationship Madhava has with BKM. Why don't you just drop it? It is his right to be with whoever he wants to be. What is your goal in life? To be devotee and practice Gaudiya Vaishnavism, or to be some crusader against everybody else who doesn't agree with you? Do we all here have to obey you and your standpoint on BKM? No, i am really not interested in that.

Try to gain something spiritual here, not to wait for somebodys mistakes. You are the main spiritus movens for your spiritual life. Whoever you are, male or female, you must have some experience in life, and with that, some accumulated wisdom. Person which has wisdom is not mindless fanatic. Why don't you ask some other questions? Why so much effort around this stuff?

I think it will be nice for the beginning that you just apologize to Madhava. From the heart, and for real this time dude.

PS. You can't spoil or damage relationships here.We all know each other for at least year ot two.

For some reason I have been more active on one of the more contentious forums of late and so I missed this entire thread. At first I thought that this Ananda was my very dear Danish Ananda Dasji from Iskcon Victoria, who is as far as I am concerned a very progressive thinker within Iskcon and someone who I would gladly share my table with.

Though I think this Ananda made some very good points, other people made very good ones as well. I really don't see how Madhava's approval of Bir Krishna Maharaj can so completely discredit him in anyone's eyes, no matter how low their opinion of Bir Krishna.

I would imagine that, in principle, Madhava is against the kinds of things that you accuse BK of doing. They don't sound particularly nice, and are rather typical of dynamics that we are familiar with in Iskcon. But from what I have seen, Madhava is intimately familiar with Iskcon politics, Narayan Maharaj politics and just about every other variety of the same that goes on.

A Vaishnava is a saragrahi and looks for the good in everyone. I am personally desperate to find the good in Iskcon and Narayan Maharaj. I am so regularly disappointed that I must be a total fool, but nevertheless, I pray that Chaitanya and Nityananda Prabhus will protect their prema-dharma by transforming all those who have made it the center of their lives, so that they will truly represent them and Radharani's love, no matter which particular branch of this movement they belong to. I make this prayer for Gaura Nitai's sake, that their reputation is not hurt.

We have come with high expectations of Radharani's bhaktas, and we are often let down. But the real task always begins with ourselves. If we see a ray of hope, let us pray fervently that this ray becomes a powerful beam. If Bir Krishna has a good idea, a correct idea, one that could make devotees live happily in a community of like-minded individual, to find succour and shelter in the Holy Name, if there is any way that this great good could come to even a handful of people, then let us pray desperately to Gaura Nitai that he realizes his wish.

If he has made mistakes, let us not blacken our hearts with hate, but fill them with prayer for his (or any other imperfect devotee's) transformation. Can we do what Bir Krishna is doing or has done? Or what Narayan Maharaj is doing or has done? Or what Madhava is doing or has done? Krishna is calling each of these individuals to do some service for his greater glory and for the benefit of so many people. And each of them is answering that call, presumably to the best of his ability. So let us pray that Krishna may guide them even more perfectly, just as we pray that he would guide us to do the service that we are meant to do more perfectly.

And if someone feels love for another devotee, even an imperfect love for an imperfect individual, is that not an occasion for rejoicing? Is there not sufficient amount of hatred going on in the name of Krishna already? Aren't we tired of it yet?

We glorify Radha and Krishna, but Gaura and Nitai are gods of devotional community. I prostrate myself to you all. May you all realize fully what They want of you, each in your own way.

Jai Radhe.

Why does Jagat always get to say the best final words?

And why do so few such open-heartedness?

Since I couldn't post as a guest and couldn't remember my password for my old, goofy username, here I am as myself.

My best guess is that this isn't the old Ananda from Canada. I've known him since 1969 or '70, and this doesn't look like his writing (I can't imagine him using a comma splice, among other things).

I also have some strong reservations about Bir Krishna Maharaj. However, I know what he has done, too. And I know that he has made teaching Krishna consciousness his first priority. Moreover, I think that vaishnava-aparadha is a very dangerous deed, one which I usually strive to avoid. And I know that, as Jagat says, I am also called by Lord Nityananda and Srimati Radharani and their delegations to do something on Their behalf, and that my first priority should be to prepare myself to answer that call. I humbly ask to be included in Jagat's prayers.

Yes, Vaishnav, they sure got pretty nasty with you on that other forum when you raised a reasonable point which happened to cross their cherished beliefs. What to do? You were entirely fair and reasonable I thought, but the topic touches a nerve, and provoked hostility. You were not to know this would happen, but perhaps now you will think twice before discussing some points openly, at least on that forum.

I think it is like talking to Muslims, there are topics one cannot broach. This is not a criticism of them, it seems they are themselves caught up in a particular world view which must remain mostly unexamined.

But Jagat is a pearl amongst all the seaweed!

Hope you can deal with the conceptual dissonance. Or rather the wrenching of being attacked by people you thought were friends.

I've got an interesting Psychologist for you, the late Rollo May, a friend of the Theologian Paul Tillich. These two plus Jung are a very rewarding study, there is lots on the web about the interaction of their ideas.

In addition to the posts in this thread, judging by some of the private correspondence I've been part of, people are way too emotionally involved to facilitate a meaningful discussion which would impartially analyze the issue. If someone desires to continue the public discussion of this matter, they should take it to court, as advised by someone's lawyer mentioned earlier on in this thread. That should give them a fair treatment.

Case closed, as far as this topic in these forums is concerned.