Regulative Principles -

Could you tell me please, whether in raganuga bhakti the following of the well-known four regulative principle is just as central part of the process as in vaidhi bhakti? I am asking because after following them for years I feel like they do not mean anything any more. They give me no inspiration, rather I feel like kind of limited by them. It is not that I feel an urgent need to start smoking or taking drugs etc. It's just that I cannot accept the theory any longer that considers those who follow the regulative principles are good, while those who do not are bad. During the years I have met so many mean persons in dhoti, following the four principles, and so many honest spiritual practicioner who, say, ate meat. So I simply do not believe any more that these somewhat external things matter so much. Bhakti is growing (or not growing) in the heart, and as I see it, it does not have much to do with the famous four principles. What do you think? What is your experience in this regard?

Well, the well-known four regulative principles, if that's what you mean by "well-known regulative principles", exist as a legislated concept only among the followers of Bhaktivedanta Swami. I haven't heard of a single Gaudiya Math which would have outlined such a concept prior to Bhaktivedanta's introducing it.

The four regulative principles directly relate to the four pillars of religion.

No meat eating = Compassion
No intoxication = Austerity
No gambling = Truth
No illicit sex = Cleanliness

To practice these (and other) religious principles as a method of showing love to Krishna is most beneficial for spiritual advancement. The way I see it is that if we only knew what it really meant to love Krishna and have Krishna really love us we would do anything for Him. Following these regulations as an expression of spontaneous love for Krishna is most desirable. Following these regulations mechanically without any feeling of loving expression is a lower standard but also desirable compared to succumbing to our lusty desires. Although your experience is that you have met people who follow the principles but lack other virtuous qualities and you met people have virtuous qualities but do not follow these principles really only attests to the fact that the conditioned natures of different persons vary greatly in their combinations of the three modes goodness, passion and ignorance. I have also similar experience in knowing people. But one thing I see is that even though a nice person may eat meat that ignorance of what they are doing is really maddness. Maddness meaning to see that which is wrong as right and vice versa. Apart from the contradictions in peoples natures there are also sadhus out there who have all good qualities and also follow perfectly the principles of religion. Apart from these sadhus there is another catagorie of perfected soul called an avadhuta, meaning someone who is beyond the rules and regulations of scripture. These avadhutas are rare and their activities are bewildering to the vast majority of persons. I do think though that to see the following of religious principles as directly an expression of love of Krishna is the essence of these rules.

Yours sincerely shab

Thanks for the comments.


As for meat-eating. As you probably know, in India there are thousand of Vasihnavas who are not strict vegetarians. We do not know their hearts. Maybe they love Krishna more than us. Maybe they dont. Do you think that Krishna will kick those persons away and reject them? Do you think that all their kirtan and bhajan goes in vain? Can we declare what Krishna feels towards an individual by looking at his eating habits? I do not think so. I understand that the line that Srila Prabhupad belonged to was very strict in this regard. But again, can we say that this is the only way? Can we?

If one visits Vrndavan for the first time, one may be shocked to see Brijbasis smoking bidhis. Now what? Does that mean that those people are all bogus cheaters? And we can declare that Krishna does not love them? That they could as well leave Vrndavan, their bhajan is useless, after all?

You see, my personal experience is that being a very strict sadhaka very often brings about a kind of spiritual pride and a feeling of "übermensch". When I joined Iskcon at the age of 18, I was a fanatic myself: I told my parents that they were corpse-eating fellows, I thought that the only human beings were those bald teenagers in robes, called the devotees. But as time passed, I realized that a human beings inner motives and characteristics have nothing to do with the four regulative principles. I felt really ashamed when respected devotees cheated me, and meat-eaters helped me without expecting anything for their help. These incidents clearly proved me that there are hones, kind-hearted persons, and there are evil-minded, dishonest persons. Some of them are vegetarians, some of them are meat-eaters. Those theories that "meat-eaters are more aggressive" are simply not true. If you do not believe me, go to an Iskcon temple, and tell them that you are a disciple of e.g. Bhaktivedanta Narayan Swami. You will see how "tolerant" and "aggression-free" vegetarians could be... I could cite thousands of examples when vegetarian "devotees" indulged in acts even meat-eaters rarely do...

Anyway, I do not want to talk anyone out of following the regulative principles, if someone feels they help one, just go ahead. But I do not believe that Krishna would accept only those who have a signed certification for being a strict sadhaka. That would be averse to every concept of divine mercy, which is the basis of bhakti-yoga, at least that is how I see.

Do you have a reference for this parallel? I mean, not from a contemporary source?

I am familiar with the story from the first canto of the Bhagavata where Pariksit gives Kali four places to reside, namely wherever gambling, drinking, promiscuous sexuality and slaughtering exist. Then he gave an additional location: where money was horded. It's a pity that this one was dropped out from the list.

Our main concern is with the 64 limbs of sadhana given in the second chapter of the first division of Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, among which the second set of ten are negative injunctions. Additionally, people adopt a varying degree of regulations from Hari Bhakti Vilasa depending on their respective traditions.

As I said, this works as a certificate in one particular movement. Worry not about the past and the regulations therein; broaden your horizons, explore the tradition, witness the great plurality of ways in which bhakti may be practiced.

Madhava:

Can you name any Vaishnav Guru whose main emphasis is on "inner" things, like truthfulness, compassion, non-sectarian attitude and - the most important - constant remembrance of Radha-Krishna, and at the same time does not demand the four regulative principles, I mean, he leaves it up to his adult disciples to decide what is beneficial for them and what is not.

Hare Krishna

If a Spiritual Master were reading these posts
what would he say?!

We all try to follow the 4 regs, it is difficult
still, without it i don't think we can come
to the mode of goodness, oh i could
go on forever, it all Krishna's Mecry.

I know of several spiritual masters who regularly check in to see this website. For obvious reasons, they do not like this website very much but they still regularly view it nevertheless.

I decided to ask my question on this particular forum because I did not want to hear answers like that. Whenever I happen to feel an urge to read about how Krishna only loves those who follow the regulative principles set up in Iskcon, I visit one of their several homepages. Thanks for your comment Govindaram, anyway.

Hare Krishna





I don't know which site you have been on,
but when you accept a spiritual master,
he will/would accept you to follow rules.

Its not about rules, it's about Krishna,
everything is geared towards Him.

I can't remember the verse..

accept everything that is conductive
to bhakti and reject everything that is not.

Like a kid who gives up his toys..
it will come automatically if not
straight away, just a matter of
time

Yes. But dear Govindaram, can you imagine that there exists one (or more) Vaishnava Guru on this planet, who - after intitiation - expects one to follow other principles than the famous four? Just because Prabhupada and his successors happened to expect their followers to follow these four regs, should we necessarily conclude that each and every Vaishnava Guru MUST be the same? Should we conclude that those who are not the same MUST be sahajiyas or 'rascals' as Srila Prabhupada often said? And also, you did not respond to that part of my previous post where I spoke about those Vaishnavas in India who don't even know that there is a thing called "four regulative principles" but at the same time they chant, worship their Deities at home, do samaranam etc. What is your opinion? Will these Vaishnavas all go to hell?

But I really do not want to waste more time for useless debate. I respect the opinion of those who disagree with me, and I do not expect them to respect my opinion in exchange. My motivation is not to find partners in debate but to find a spiritual teacher. So I will not respond to any challenging comments.

If someone has any information about a Master (quoting myself) - "whose main emphasis is on 'inner' things, like truthfulness, compassion, non-sectarian attitude and - the most important - constant remembrance of Radha-Krishna, and at the same time does not demand the four regulative principles, I mean, he leaves it up to his adult disciples to decide what is beneficial for them and what is not" - please let me know. Thank you very much.

Gourhari, Gourhari, Gourhari

If you want something cheap then goto K-Mart.

Dear Openmind,

I am not in Iskcon so I can't really say what is given emphasis and what isn't. I do know that the emphasis of A.C. Bhaktivedanta was devotional service to Krsna.

My own Guru Maharaja, who is a disciple of A.C. Bhaktivedanta's, never asked me or instructed me regarding the four principles. He did give a nice talk about what is the intent behind the principles. Obviously one should not follow rules for their own sake, but we should also not neglect to follow rules that are conducive to devotional practice. Without getting into all the details and issues that my Guru Maharaja spoke about I will simply summarize the whole talk (which unfortunately does a serious injustice to the topic, but I don't have the time or the inclination to do more than this) by saying that the principles often spoken of as regulative principles are really speaking about living a life which is progressive and is dedicated to spiritual progress and is attuned to the environment in which we live. As you have rightly pointed out - what is the use of following the no meat eating idea if one isn't prepared to understand the broad principle of compassion and progressively apply that in all one's life and dealings? (this is just a simple example of how people gravitate toward rules and regulations without fully understanding why they do so and what the principle is behind the rule).

I remember having a discussion many years ago in the Krsna Balarama Mandira in Vrndavana with an Iskcon devotee. I told him some of the things you have said here. When I suggested to him that someone can be a meat eater and still develop love for God I lost him completely. End of discussion - this particular indivdual didn't seem to the have the capability of looking at he empiric evidence and weigh it agains the dogma he was accepting. I told him that it was my experience that many who follow the 'rule' of no meat eating don't appear to be compassionate as one would hope they would become if they understood why they are involved in spiritual practice in general, and that many, at least in my own estimation don't seem to have made much tangible spiritual progress - let alone having developed love of God. On the other hand I told him that I knew quite a few Christians who still ate meat and who, again in my own estimation based on my observations of their character and actions, were very compassionate individuals who have also developed their hearts in connection to God considerably.

People like to think in terms of black and white. It seems to be a rarity for individuals to think about things more deeply and recognize the many shades of gray. When I talk to people about various issues, including vegetarianism, I talk in general about being a progressive person and the willingness to improve oneself and adapt to new information as it becomes available.

Remember this - Krsna clearly says in BG that those who renounce sensual objects and pleasure externally but who dwell on them internally are to be considered pretenders. Next he says, that those who experience a higher taste will naturally lose attraction for those things of a lower taste. So obviously the emphasis should be placed on positive spiritual practice. Artificiality and dishonesty is not progressive or conducive to spiritual practice. If someone is unable to give up one or several habits that aren't conducive to spiritual life, they should not be made to feel shamed or that they are inferior in some way. Everyone should be encouraged to be honest about who and what they are and to take the proper steps from where they are at to make tangible progress toward the goal of saranagati.

As far as where to find a guide I am sure that Krsna will guide you from within toward his manifestation without who is just right for you. Good luck.

Your servant,
Auddarya-lila dasa

Which spiritual master? There's quite a bit of variety out there, you know.

Well, it's not that I have interviewed all that many gurus on these topics. Your best bet is to get a bit of literature from everyone, and meet them if possible. Assuming that you don't speak any of the Indian languages, I believe your choices are narrowed down to a handful of individuals out there. Pick out those who appear likeminded with you, study them further.

As far as my guru goes, I've rarely heard him speak of matters other than bhajan. That is definitely his emphasis.

I haven't heard anyone outside ISKCON actually demand the four regs. Most gurus advise their followers to at least give up meat-eating and alcohol, and expect this from the initiated ones. Things like this are natural, and shouldn't need much advising, what to speak of demanding. They come about naturally when you begin the path of sadhana. Of course, if after a couple of years of bhakti-sadhana you show up dead drunk or smell like a hamburger, people will wonder what's up with you and suggest that you shape up a bit, because such habits are detrimental for bhajan.

Just for the record, Govindaram and bhaktashab are not regular contributors here, and are, as far as I know, followers of ISKCON. All insights are welcome and appreciated, but please keep in mind that it's a mixed bunch of individuals contributing here. Among the more frequent contributors, myself, Adiyen and Jagat should reflect quite an objective image of the tradition you'll find out there.

Jay Sri Radhe!

I agree with openmind. I don´t think this 4 regulative principles has anything to do with bhakti. Maybe it has something to do about following the spiritual master and then following vaidhi-bhakti. But if we were to follow vaidhi-bhakti, we have to follow all the 64 limbs of sadhana.

I don´t believe that praticing illicit sex makes someone dirt. I don´t believe too that the people who eat meat don´t have any compassion. I think that the process should be the inverse. I think the guru should give the maha-mantra to the sadhaka and this should make the sadhaka stop with meat eating, intoxication, gambling, illicit sex and all the other things that should be not condutive to bhakti.

What do you think about it?

PS: I like very much to drink black tea. Some people told that this is intoxication but I think it is very conductive to bhakti since I use it to give-me energy to do my spiritual pratices.

Hello! ofcourse krishna does not care if you eat meat or not. He is above the "Gunas" which are there in us.

The point here is this: It is done because you want to show krishna some love. For example, you won't eat meat because it will hurt krishna's animals etc.

Ofcourse you kill so many living entities every day with out eating meat, but you cannot help it. The ones you can avoid, why won't you avoid killing them?
When we are not our bodies, then it won't matter what sort of eating habits we have, krishna won't care.
We should first try to change our inner selves, for example being humble kind and trying to see God in everything. Then if we can, we can go to the higher paths like "Raganuga".

If we are not changed from with in, no matter how much we follow the "Four regalative principles" it all goes in vain.

Even I know this and I am just a newbie

So, As I have stated in the post above, its all in the thought.

You can do it if you want, krishna will be 'pleased' if you do, If you don't, krishna won't care either. In any case, krishna is unaffected.

So, you do it, or you don't its all about you.
For me though, this process became easier, My parents don't eat meat/no alcohol etc, I don't eat meat/no alcohol etc and probably the family line will continue that way.
It won't make us any special, may be in our own conscience, but we are special to God whether we do something or we don't So, why beat the heck out of yourself trying to follow things which you cannot.

So, first make yourself a better person, then follow. If you are already following, then make yourself a better person. WHo cares what the other guy is doing. Whether the other 'devotee' is nasty in the mind and good in habits- its between him/her and krishna. Your business too is only with God, So too is my business. We are connected through him, so lets not forget that.

Also, lets not compare...

Oh by the way, I drink tea too

Eh? Lets not start a thread on tea!

I prefer milk myself (banana milkshake)

Also one leads to the other..

taking up 4 regs is conductive..
rejecting them is another matter.

I don't fool myself personally,
i know i am being sinful,
by not following 4 regs,
the Karma is only
being added.

Also Madhvaji I belong to Sri Radha-Krishna
so there!

No, I don't, you would have to ask someone more learned in scripture, perhaps there is a quote somewhere. However, the logic of the relationship between these regulations and their corresponding principles is as clear as day. Madhava please don't tell me that you can't understand the inference here. Let's not forget that anumana is still a valid pramana and easily applicable in this case.

yours sincerely
shab

Regarding the four regs: It is good to be a sinless person. I have read onetime a footnote in a publication of Srimad Bhagavata from Gita Press about the great sins. I recall reading that the great sins were: taking intoxicants, eating flesh, lying, stealing and having sex with one's Guru's wife. It also stated that to have fellowship with such persons is also a great sin.

Although it's a great virtue to be sinless, it is not a criteria for obtaining the mercy of the Lord. A sinful person can receive the mercy of the Lord, but an offender cannot.

Devotional service in practice destroys ignorance within the heart, which is the root of sin. Without cultivating devotion the seeds of sin remain in the heart although the activity has been cut down. To overemphasis on following the four regs and little emphasis on a life of bhajan is not the proper bhajan conception. Bhajan purifies one and will make us qualified for attaining love for Krsna. To do things favorable to Krsna's service and avoid things which are unfavorable is also bhajan. To follow the FOUR regs, but be involved in lying, cheating, drug smuggling and stealing is a great hypocracy.

I disagree though that following the 4 regs is a show of love for Krsna. A show of love for Krsna are sattvika bhavas of hairs standing on end, shivering of the body, etc. There are mayavadis who are sinless, does that make them lovers of Krsna? Making a sacrifice, namely following the 4 regs, is not a show of 'love for Krsna' while one is still in an early stage of bhakti development. It is an aid in bhajan. We are making endeavours to invoke Sri Krsna's mercy on us so that we may gradually come to the level of qualifying ourselves for love for Krsna.

If one has trouble with sins, if he chants the holy name of Krsna, the holy name will destroy those sinful desires, if one endeavours to chant without offense. One should be careful though that continuous lapses into sins does not implicate one in the seventh offense in chanting the holy name, to sin on the strength of chanting. Then the sin converts to an offense against the holy name.

Madhava Prabhu,
I have made a whole four quotes on your site and from this you assume that I am an iskcon devotee. The truth is that I completely owe my status as a neophyte devotee to A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and his followers. However, I personally don't fit easily into religious institutions because I find it difficult to substitute 'institution consciousness' for a genuine desire to advance spiritually. I consider myself to be a Gaudiya Vaisnava and I am very eager to give respect to all devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu no matter what 'group' they are involved with. If someone asked me to recommend a Gaudiya institution to them I would glorify them all and then tell them to be very careful to watch out for any devotees who criticize other devotees no matter what institution they belong too. I would say that some institutions have a superiority complex and others have inferiority complexes so try not to get involved in any of this complexity. Be sincere, find a sadhu, serve and take his association and follow his instructions. The way I see it is that every Gaudiya Vaisnava is an individual and should be respected and treated as such without having institutional stereotypes placed upon them. The desire to criticize the conditioned natures of individuals for whatever reason is a symptom of duality and the desire to deny contradictions is a symptom of impersonalism. I think it is wonderful that there are so many different Gaudiya Vaisnava devotees of the Lord with so many different opinions and contradictory instructions. It truly attests to the unlimited and inconceivable nature of Sri Krsna.

ys shab

What a fascinating and enlightening outlook, bhaktashab! Thumbs up!

The whole point about doing any type of sadhana is that we are trying to prove to Krishna that we love him and are extremely eager to receive his mercy. I described the difference between following religious principles mechanically simply because that's what it says to do in a book and following the religious principles with the specific intent to please Krsna. For example a devotee may think, "I want to avoid intoxication because I want Krsna to know that I love him." This love is obviously not prema, nor bhava. But it is certainly love in the sense of what we are used to experiencing in this world. By invoking these loving sentiments, the ones we are capable of, surely this pleases Krishna. My best times in my spiritual life have been when I have consciously tried to direct whatever meager loving sentiments I have toward the Lord. I began to start to see all of my activities as having the possibility of being related to the loving service of God. This didn't last long but in that state of mind I felt my eagerness for prema start to well up in my heart. I actually felt sincere when I was begging to Krishna to please give me prema. But like I said this didn't last long, but I now know which way to go the next time I feel these favorable winds blowing and I can put aside my material duties for at least some time. Also this is another thing I know. A pure devotee doesn't necessarily need to be displaying symptoms of ecstasy in order to be showing love for Krishna. Ecstasy can interfere with devotional service and for pure devotees this is most inconvenient.

ys shab

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments.

I do not feel that Krishna is dancing in joy when Bhakta Smith gives up his habit of drinking a glass of beer once a week. I do not feel that it makes any difference. Of course, if someone experiemces that a glass of beer washes away his Krishna-consciousness, he should definitely refrain from even looking at alcohol. We are adults. At least we are supposed to be. There are millions of people who sometimes drink a glass of beer and at the same time they have nothing to do with becoming a boozer. Becoming an alcoholic is one extreme, and fainting at the sight of a glass of wine is another extreme, at least this is what I think. Madhava mentioned that one is not supposed to be dead drunk. Correct. Agreed. But a glass of beer usually does not make one a dead drunk demon. If it does, then that particular person should be extremely cautious with alcohol. As far as sex life is considered, my experience is that when one is thinking a lot about Krishna, sex life is spontaneously minimized. But when one tries to surpress it artificially, it always leads to perverted states of mind, or it transforms into a crazy greed for power, as we have seen in many cases with devotees.

Prabhupada was an Indian man, born in a Vaishnav family. He never saw porn movies, never saw alcohol at home, never saw meat on their table. For him these things were absolutely natural. But let us consider what are backgrounds are. If we try to become spotless saints in two days, or even in two years, we simply destroy our motivation, because we will fail every day. I experienced this for years. Big enthusiasm, no more sins, yeah, then falldown, then depression for weeks. One can play this for a lifetime. We have seen people who spent years with Prabhupada, received his mercy every day, they were shining with sacredness, and then suddenly they fall down in incredible ways. I think as long as we are in these bodies, we are not going to be sinless saints.

And as far as the concept of sin is concerned: among the devotees external things like don't eat this, don't drink that are often the main, or the only concern. As if much more important things like truthfulness etc. were automatically inherently present in us. But it is not so. That is why I said that I would like to meet a teacher whose MAIN concern is these inner things, and I do not have to spend a lifetime with correcting my eating, drinking and sexual habits, that - I think - are all secondary.

Someone mentioned that I am going for the cheap thing. If you think that giving up hamburgers is a much bigger achievment than giving up deeply rooted anarthas like selfishness, sectarian mentality, criticizing others etc. than I do not know what to say. I think it is much easier and cheaper to follow the regs and thinking we are spiritual superheroes opposed to the disgusting, cow-eating, beer-drinking masses, the 'rascals' and 'demons' as Prabhupad often said.

One more thing from my personal experience: I have met several people in the mode of goodness without following the regs, and I have also met many puffed up 'rascals' in robes with japa in their hands. So I was convinced that it is not one's eating habits that make one a good or a bad person.

Hare Krishna

You can be too open minded?

Didn't the Aryan race and ppls in the satya-yuga
live by the 4 regs, we are in kali-yug, and lord
chaitanya mahaprabhu gives us maha-mantra.

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

Hare Krishna

You can be too open minded?

Didn't the Aryan race and ppls in the satya-yuga
live by the 4 regs, we are in kali-yug, and lord
chaitanya mahaprabhu gives us maha-mantra.

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare

That's it, Govindaram. That is the point.

Gourhari, Gourhari, Gourhari

Hi openminded,
I appreciate your perspective. The main thing is really to associate with advanced devotees and hear and chant about Krishna. But I must say in regards to your quote above that please have more faith in guru and Krishna. Sri Caitanya's mercy is for you and for everyone. It is a trick of maya when we think that we cannot become pure devotees in this life. Krishna can create a play of miracles with you as the main actor, don't doubt it for a second. ys shab.

What I meant by "ISKCON devotee" is someone primarily following the precepts of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. I apologize if you felt misdefined by this. I appreciate your attitude; it is not always easy to respect others who have differences of opinion with one's own teachers.

Isnt it as simple as Lord Krsna says in Bhagavad-Gita what he accepts as an offering to Him and meat is not one of them...you all know the famous verse! Right?

Why would you want to eat someting that He will not accept? I know that He leaves things pretty open, unlike the whole ISKCON garlic, onions, mushrooms, vinegar, and chocolate not offerable thing, but He NEVER mentions offering meat. If the Lod wont accept it to eat, why should we?


Haribol!

YS

Chapter 9. The Most Confidential Knowledge
TEXT 26

patram puspam phalam toyam
yo me bhaktya prayacchati
tad aham bhakty-upahrtam
asnami prayatatmanah

SYNONYMS

patram--a leaf; puspam--a flower; phalam--a fruit; toyam--water; yah--whoever; me--unto Me; bhaktya--with devotion; prayacchati--offers; tat--that; aham--I; bhakti-upahrtam--offered in devotion; asnami--accept; prayata-atmanah--of one in pure consciousness.
TRANSLATION

If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you mean we should adjust our eating habits according to this verse, dear Yamaraj?

Uhh, Yeah!

Is there anywhere that Lord Krsna says we can offer Him meat in Kali-yuga?

YS