Mind and thoughts - About spirtual and material thoughts..

Hare Krishna Dear Patita Pavana Vaishnavas,

Generally it is stated in the Shastras that the Soul is above mind
(Indriyaani Parani .... Parastu Sah)

And also it is stated that we should not identify with the thoughts that come and go in the mind as the water from rivers leaves and enters the ocean .
As Krishna says:
Apuryamaanam Achalam Pratishtham....Sa Shaantim Apnoti Na Kaama Kaami

This is a very demonic question coming from a demonic mind...
When we are doing smaranam of Krishna's lilas are'nt we identifying with our minds?

Thanks in advance..

Hari Hari..

Dasanudasa

The ApUryamANam verse speaks about desires (kAma), not thoughts. Whether lila-smaranam or study of brahma-jnana, we take advantage of manas and buddhi in our undertaking. As stated in the Amrita-bindu Upanishad:

mano hi dvividhaM proktaM zuddhaM cAshuddham eva ca |
azuddhaM kAmasaGkalpaM zuddhaM kAmavivarjitam || 1 ||

"There are said to be two kinds of minds, the pure and the impure. The one desiring kAma is impure, and the one rejecting kAma is pure."

mana eva manuSyANAM kAraNaM bandha-mokSayoH |
bandhAya viSayAsaGgo muktyai nirviSayaM manaH || 2 ||

"For a man, mind is the cause of both bondage and liberation; the mind brings about bondage while associating with sense objects, and liberation while neglecting them."

Now, of course this statement has a bias of jnana-marga to it, but I believe the point is clear. Moreover, as we engage our thoughts in thinking of the pastimes of Sri Krishna, the mind becomes spiritualized through the contemplation of a transcendent object. Remember the brahma-karma-samAdhinA verse of gItA (4.24).

But thoughts in general can be kAma or premA. Is'nt it?



For attaining pure bhakti to Krishna the jnana-marga should not be thought of - As Srila Rupa Gosvami says : "Jnana Karmaadi Anaavrtam".

But when does a person realise that he needs to give up the jnana aspect of spirituality?

Any thoughts?

Hari Hari

Kama and prema are driving forces underlying all thoughts and actions.


No, certainly as long as one is embodied in this world, he must act and know. It is a matter of what we desire. Anya-abhilash is the key-word here.

You find both karma-marga and jnana-marga propounded in the Gita. Did you ever think of this while reading it? Did you think of the overall context of each verse?

Some more queries:


Does this mean that the jnana aspect always remains, the only difference being that it's not given the first preference?



Yes, there's both jnana and karma marga propounded in Gita. But Krishna clearly mentions at many places that "Bhakti is the way to know Him" - "Bhaktya Maam Abhijaanaati" and many others.

Please do inform what is the overall context of each verse?

Thanks for your reply.

Hare Krishna!

Dasanudasa.

Well, I suppose this just boils down to how we define jnana. If we take jnana to mean pursuit for the impersonal absolute, then jnana ought to be rejected. If we take jnana in a general sense as the faculty of thought and discrimination, then it is unavoidable while in this world. If we take jnana in the sense of bhagavat-sambandha-jnana, it is obligatory.


Wow. In other words, "Please write a commentary on each verse of the Gita."

Commenting on the jJAna-karmAdy-anAvRtam verse, Jiva defines:

jJAnam atra nirbheda-brahmAnusandhAnam | na tu bhajanIya-tattvAnusandhAnam api |

"Jnana here means inquiry into the nondifferentiated brahman, not inquiry into the worshipable truth."

Also, about karma:

karma cAtra smRtyAdy-uktaM nitya-naimittikAdi | na tu bhajanIya-paricaryAdi |

"Karma here means regular and occasional duties mentioned in the Smriti and elsewhere, not worship and so forth of the worshipable one."

hahah

Very nice Madhavaji.. This makes it very clear!


Well... You could go ahead with that Actually wanted to know what did you mean by asking the question "Did you think of the overall context of each verse?"

Hare Krishna!

Yes so what, Madhavaji, why not do it? You are certainly very capable.

Well, my "shastric studies" section here never got beyond a summary of the first chapter of the Gita... As much as I'd love to do anything and everything, when o when? I do wish to put together summaries of some key Gaudiya texts in the future though.

What I meant that there are plenty of things in the Gita which do not exactly represent uttama-bhakti as we know it. Lots of mishra-bhakti. Have you read Ramananda Samvada? Ramananda cites many verses from the Gita, and Mahaprabhu dismisses them as external. Gita describes many paths, and following each and every verse is not necessarily good for you. Say, for example, Krishna recommends the path of yoga in the sixth chapter, and Arjuna finds it complicated. Should you still follow the recommendations Krishna made?

Is this the samvaada in which Chaitanya Mahaprabhu finally agrees to Ramananda's quoting:

"Jnaane Prayaase.... Asi Tais Trilokyam"

This is quoted in a lot of lectures by Srila Prabhupada!


For a person who is working, is the situation quite similar to Arjuna's except for the fact that Krsna is not physically present before the person?

Then the verse:
"Tasmaat Sarveshu ..... Mamevaishya Asamshaya" comes into mind.

But, how can a person remember Krishna and fight at the same time? Well.. did Arjuna ask this to Krishna?

Hare Krishna!

Exactly that one.



Essentially we are all in the same situation. We are faced with life and need to asses the situation and choose the spiritually most conducive path of action. Our duties may vary, but internally the conflict is just like Arjuna's.

How to fight and remember Krishna at the same time? Well, remember because of whom you fight/work/walk/talk/eat/sleep etc.

Jaya Radhe,
Dandavats to you all. Dear Madhava Prabhu. Aren't thoughts of Krishna simply a mental conception of Krishna and not actually smaranam in the true sense? I mean if I hear about Krishna's pastimes and then imagine them in my mind is not this imagination simply a mental conception of the eternal reality and not actually transcendental?

Aren't sounds of the name of Krishna simply a vocal conception of Krishna, and not actually kirtanam in the true sense? I think you get the point.

According to Jiva Gosvamin (Bhakti Sandarbha, Anuccheda 278), there are five stages of smaranam.

tad idaM smaraNaM paJca-vidham | yat kiJcid anusandhAnaM smaraNam | sarvataz cittam AkRSya sAmAnyAkAreNa mano-dhAraNaM dhAraNA | vizeSato rUpAdi-vicintanaM dhyAnam | amRta-dhArAvad avicchinnaM tad dhruvAnusmRtiH | dhyeya-mAtra-sphuraNaM samAdhir iti |

"This smaranam is of five kinds. A slight reflection is known as smaranam. A generic, unimpaired concentration of the entire consciousness is known as dharanam. Specific meditation on His form etc. is dhyanam. When it is uninterrupted, like a stream of nectar, it is dhruvanusmriti. When the object alone manifests, it is samadhi."

Thus thoughts of Krishna are nondifferent from the initial stages of smaranam. As said by Rupa Gosvamin in his Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu (1.2.175) while delineating the 64 limbs of sadhana-bhakti:

atha smRtiH --
yathA kathaJcin manasA sambandhaH smRtir ucyate || 175 ||

Then smriti: "That which brings a connection of the mind [with the Lord] by any means is known as Smriti."

Let me rephrase your question. "If I put iron in the fire, but it's still cold and solid, isn't that all it is, iron, and not fire? It can't be fire, can it?" Well, "Just keep that iron in the fire, and gradually it will become fire, too, and while it's in the process of transformation, it's a bit of both."

Hare Krsna, thankyou Madhava.

In a lecture entilted 'Be Like Water' Swami B.V. Tripurari says, "The form that Krishna consciousness will take will be entirely different to what you currently think Krishna consciousness to be. You cannot think of Krishna consciousness, it is beyond conception. So stop thinking. We have to 'be' Krishna conscious." In saying this he was warning that we shouldn't get caught in a mental conception of Krishna consciousness and that it is very easy to be illusioned like this even for advanced Madhyama Adhikaris. He was urging his listeners to stop the mind while chanting harinama and 'let the heart come out'. Madhava Prabhu could you please comment on this in light of the previous conversation and how it relates to smaranam. Thankyou.

shab

Yes, let your heart come out, let it fill your mind with beautiful thoughts of Krishna. Mind is the medium of thought. It is merely a question of the degree of its purity.

Though our present concept of Krishna is evidently very different from the perception on the perfectional stage, it is certainly not a good idea to reject our present conception, attempting to replace it with the perception of the perfectional stage. As much as you deserve, that much shall you behold within you.

I can't comment on what Swami said since I haven't reviewed the lecture you referred to, but I am quite certain that Swami wouldn't encourage you to reject the current conception of Krishna you have within your mind.

Now, what is the mind and what is the heart? I assume Swami refers to what we know as citta, or consciousness, when he speaks of the heart. When the mind associates with svarupa-sakti (the internal potency of the Lord) through the practice of bhakti-sadhana over a period of time, it becomes nondifferent from svarupa-sakti, attaining its pure function as the vessel of varieties of spiritual emotions. Certainly we do not wish to renounce the mind.

Jayadeva praises Hari in his Gita-govindam: muni-jana-mAnasa-haMsa! jaya jaya deva! hare! -- "O swan, gliding across the lake of the sages' minds! Glory, glory to you, splendid one, glory to you, Hari!"

Rupa Gosvamin prays in his Stavavali: deva! bhavantaM vande! man-mAnasa-madhukaram arpaya nija-pada-paGkaja-makarande -- "O Deva! Obeisances unto You! Let the ambrosial honey of your lotus feet be offered to the bumblebee of my mind!"

I believe in one of the Sermons of the Guardian of devotion series books, Sridhara Maharaja answers a question about the mind and says in effect that the mind is material - one of the eight items mentioned by Krsna in BG as part of his seperated material energy - so to say the mind (as we know it) is spiritual is incorrect really.

I have heard the lecture that Bhaktashab is referring to and I have also heard my Guru Maharaja mention this same concept at other times. What he is referring to when he says that, is that the experience of Krsna consciousness is enacted on the transendental plane. In other words - whatever mental construct we have is just that - mental. Until we come to experience Krsna we will have a superficial 'mental' understanding. But what is material cannot experience that which is spiritual. The mind can be used in krsna's service and should be and to the extent that it is - it becomes spiritualized - but what is meant by saying that what someone thinks Krsna consciousness is and what it really is are different is that Krsna consciousness proper is transendental to the mind and when Krsna reveals himself to us then we will understand this - otherwise it is a bit difficult because we only have half of the equation.

I just went to a lecture by Father Thomas Keating who is a trappist monk and is the founder of the centering prayer method within Catholicism. In his lecture he talked about this same concept quite a bit. He talked about coming to experience consciousness beyond the confines of the mind and senses and finding a God who is not bound by our current mental constructs.

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

No, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the mind as it is would be spiritual, any more than any of the other seven elements are. However, this does not change the fact that the mind is the medium of our thoughts, including thoughts of Krishna. The senses certainly are material, but nevertheless we engage them in the service of Krishna.

Do senses and mind engaged in service remain material for good? No, they don't. Mahaprabhu taught this while embracing Sanatana, who had reached the end of his harsh journey through the jungle of Jharikhanda.

prabhu kahe - vaiSNava-deha prAkRta kabhu naya |
aprAkRta deha bhaktera cid-Ananda-maya || CC 3.4.191 ||

"Prabhu said: The body of a Vaishnava is never material. The body of a bhakta is immaterial, imbued with consciousness and joy."

The body of a perfected Vaishnava is altogether transformed into spirit.

nAradAham idaM manye tAdRzAnAM yataH sthitiH |
bhavet sa eva vaikuNTho loko nAtra vicAraNA ||
kRSNa-bhakti-sudhA-pAnAd deha-daihika-vismRteH |
teSAM bhautika-dehe 'pi sac-cid-Ananda-rUpatA || BBhA 1.3.60-61 ||

"Oh Narada! I consider that wherever there are devotees, that is Vaikuntha. Even if they are in the material world, it is not to be considered inferior to Vaikuntha. This is my own realization from direct experience and I don't feel it necessary to offer proofs from scripture. My experience is sufficient evidence. Due to drinking the nectar of devotion to Krishna they have completely forgotten the material body and everything connected with it and thus that body becomes transformed into something other-worldly or spiritual, just as took place in the case of Dhruva Maharaja. It is just as with the drinking of certain potions -- the body becomes transformed."

Initially the body of a practicing devotee is partially material and partially spiritual. In proportion to his spiritual engagement of all of his faculties, the aforesaid faculties become spiritualized. Thus, thinking of Krishna within your mind gradually spiritualizes your mind.

Some preach a false doctrine according to which one should not contemplate on the form, qualities and pastimes of Krishna within one's mind until the mind is altogether spiritualized. However, consider the shallownes of this doctrine: Is the holy name less spiritual than the holy sports? Do we chant the holy name only after the tongue is spiritualized? Is the arca-vigraha less spiritual than the charming form of Syama roaming about in the pastures of Vraja? Do we not nevertheless remember the vigraha-form with devotion, engaging our body in His service? Why, then, should the mind be neglected? manera smarana-prAna madhura-madhura dhAma yugala-vilase smRti sAra - "Remembrance is the essence of the mind, the abode of all sweetness, and the pastimes of Yugala are the essence of remembrance." (Narottama Das Thakur Mahasaya)

By the way, welcome onboard, Audarya-lila.

Hari Bol Madhava - thanks for the welcome

I agree with everything you said (but I'm not sure who it is that preaches the false doctrine you mentioned). We have to endeavor and use our mind and senses fully in Krsna's service - my only point really is much like Mother Yashoda's inability to bind Krsna through all her endeavors, we will only be truly successful (realize what Krsna consciousness is instead of thinking about it) when Krsna grants us his mercy.

It's interesting that the quote you provided gives Druva Maharaja as the example because as we know from his case - he was successful when he had the darshan of Krsna. He was engaged in sadhana according to the instructions of Narada and the fruit of that practice was genuine Krsna consciousness. A crude example might be given here, although it won't be completely analogous because it is material. One could read about Hawaii, talk about Hawaii and engage all his time and energy in Hawaii to the best of his ability - but the person will never truly know Hawaii until he/she goes there. In the same way we can think about Krsna (whatever conception we have of him), chant his name, worship him etc. But our conception is still based on a mental construct without genuine experience until such time as Krsna personally reveals himself to us. Up until that point, what we go on is the words of others in whom we have faith, like our spiritual master, our predecessor acharyas, the scriptures etc. Of course we also have some experience otherwise we wouldn't keep pursuing Krsna as we do - but for most of us - it is only a hint or scent -and that's enough to keep us moving forward for more.

Your analogy of the Holy Name is very appropriate. Krsna and his name are nondifferent - but are we realizing his name when we chant? Has Krsna come under our control by our ability to vibrate our tongues? Certainly not! But we are in the stage of practice and we pray earnestly for Krsna to help us to keep focused on His Holy Name. When Krsna chooses to reveal himself to us in the form or His Holy Name our experience of Him will be quite different than it is now. Of course I'm speaking about those of us in the lower rungs of bhakti - but the analogy is very good and fits perfectly. Why should one think that Krsna is present in His Name when it is chanted by the sadhaka and that thinking of his Rupa, Guna, and Lila are different in some way such that he isn't present there? In any case, our thinking, chanting, meditating etc. is practice - when we reach to sadhya it will be much different than our mentally conceived picture.

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

Oh, please don't take it that I refer to the Gaudiya Math tradition. There are some strange subcultures in ISKCON who preach this. Unfortunately it seems that many have been affected by this errant philosophy. The subcultures of ISKCON, now that would make a fascinating study!



Yes, you have an excellent point here. Though we certainly strive to envision Radha and Krishna within us, one should understand that the sphurti (manifest vision) is attained as the outcome of longing, prayers and mercy. It is not merely a matter of mental waxworks, not that we just study the descriptions and try to visualize what we've read. If there is no mood, there is no raganuga-sadhana, and there is no sphurti. (Sigh...)

Madhava: I can't comment on what Swami said since I haven't reviewed the lecture you referred to, but I am quite certain that Swami wouldn't encourage you to reject the current conception of Krishna you have within your mind.

You're correct in this, of course. I've also heard this lecture, and the point Swami is making is that any conception we may have of what it means to be Krishna conscious is a shallow, pale reflection of the real thing. He's certainly not discouraging attempts at purifying our minds by thinking of Krishna at whatever stage of development we have attained.