Lecture by Narayan Maharaja - your comments

Jai Radhe,

I am posting a class below by his divine grace Narayana Maharaj, What is your reply of the article in reference to his divine greace Ananta das babaji Maharaj? Does he agree or disagree with Narayana Maharaja to the best of your knowledge? I am just gathering information here and there trying to have a objective scope. Thank you.

[ Read the lecture here. Please only post links to long lectures. Edited by moderator. ]

Jai Radhe,

The guru of Vraja Kishora is Danudara Swami and because of child abuse in Vrindaban to the gurukulis, he was suspended from the GBC. He also used ______ govinda maharaja ISKCON Vrindaban ( I do not remember first name) as the source of info.

Coming back to the thread, What do you think of this,

[ Read the text here. Mod. ]

I once wrote a review on the infamous "Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis" lecture. You can read it here: http://www.ragadesign.com/at/sahajiya-babaji-notes.pdf

In essence, in his rants about the babajis, Narayan Maharaja is generally incoherent, and additionally either malicious, misinformed or senile. You decide which one of the three applies best.

Here Narayan Maharaja is either malicious or senile, he cannot be misinformed since he speaks how he himself was searching for those new babajis. No such babajis ever existed. In the history of Radha Kunda, only one Western devotee has received bhekh. That was sometime in the late 1970's, and this person never knew Narayan Maharaja, what to speak of asking siddha-pranali from him.

I wouldn't really wish to enter into a Narayan Maharaja rant examination here. Perhaps you can just drop me an e-mail or so if you wish to ask more about his statements. You can also use the search to see older topics where his statements have been discussed.

Jay Radhe!

Madhava, I have to tell you, I do not like your answer; some vaishnava ettiquette is missing there. He is a senior vaishnava and should be respect even when you disagree with his conclusions or feel offended by him. I want some philosophical debate without name calling. If you cannot answer his statement point by point, control the urge of speak; keeping your heart above the modes, my group his group. The truth is everyone wealth when real humility is displayed. Thank you for your mercy on the advise of searching old threads.

Here's what I said:



If you read the review of the "Boycott" lecture, you'll see that he is incoherent. As for the set of three options, it is evident that he presents incorrect information. I do not know which one of the three is the reason. That's why I said, you figure it out. If we are to enter into an honest examination, we have to admit that any of the options given may be the cause of making statements which are not coherent with reality.

Perhaps my Vaishnava etiquette has become a bit rusty over all those encounters with people from Narayan Maharaja's group, including Maharaj himself, who feel they can openly slander just about anyone and get away with it. My apologies for that.

Narayan Maharaj has basically gone to the extent of practically labeling all babajis of Vraja as sahajiya and non-vaishnava, issuing a blanket condemnation and calling for a boycott. Would you admit that he is also guilty of violating the etiquette to some extent?



I already linked you up with a point by point examination of his lecture. In addition, you may want to read point by point examinations of the first and second chapters of his Prabandha Pancakam.

If you wish to examine any particular philosophical or historical point, feel free to bring it up. I suggest opening a new thread for this. However, do read the three documents I linked you up with first to avoid chewing the chewed.

Dear Sumukha,

I have to write to you, that also some devotees cocooned in their institutionalized thinking miss their own personalities in first place.Whenever one respects him/her self (whatever he/she is,no matter of religion,gender or color of skin),then that person respects others.Vaishnava isn't one who goes around to point fingers,judge others and call them names.I will then suspect, that such person has something behind deeply rooted and hidden from public.But,as you may know truth always comes out.Would you call somebody like that His Divine Grace?I doubt it.Respect yourself,then everybody else no matter what they are,then we can talk about vaishnava etiquette and meaning of Apa-Radha.
Do we have to blindly accept everybody to be pure devotee and senior vaishnava?I don't think so.
You say:control the urge of speak-you automatically judge and want to control...Is your heart above modes?
Speaking of groups,there are groups above this mundane plane if you didn't know.Did you read about them in any Gaudiya Vaishnava or Vaishnava books lately?
Wishing you sincerely all well,

Dear Sumukha,

It is ironic that you are upset with Madhava for his statements, when just a couple of posts earlier you put the name of another senior Vaishnava into public disrepute. Please look at your own conduct before you criticize Madhava's. Perhaps you are seeing faults in Madhava because those same faults are present in yourself?

Anyway, you asked for comment on the points of the lecture, so I will attempt to answer at least a few of them as best as I can:



I know of no orthodox Caitanya Vaishnava parivar that says that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is a Mayavadi because he took sannyasa from Kesava Bharati. This sounds, to me, like an attempt to instill fear and emotional disgust in the hearts of the speaker's followers (perhaps he thinks he is doing this nobly, for their own protection?), because the esteemed speaker cannot possibly believe it to be true.



Sastra clearly instructs the followers of Mahaprabhu to wear white cloth. Surely we should not judge too harshly a devotee whose bhava prompts him to deviate from this standard and wear burlap, or saffron, or green, or whatever. But for a devotee not only to depart from the standard, but to DEMEAN those who hold to the standard, is problematic. This speaker says that all those who follow the standard are "widows" while he and those like him are "married" to Krishna. Leaving aside questions of confusion about prayojana (married love vs. parakiya, etc.), I find that the speaker's apparent misogyny (in his demeaning of widows as lesser than what he is) rather off-putting -- it is at best a non-sequitur, and is at worst an insult to both Vaishnavis and to the orthodox standard of devotional attire.



If babaji-vesa is bogus because some Westerners fell away from it after two years and chose to live with divorced ladies, then let us consider the full implications of the speaker's accusation. Surely sannyasa-vesa is equally or even more bogus, because of the far larger number of Westerners who have fallen away from it and have chosen to live with women, other men, etc. If the "sahajiya babajis" are at fault for Westerners' falling down from babaji-vesa, then surely a Gaudiya Vaishnava guru is equally or even more at fault for his Western disciples falling down from sannyasa-vesa, yes?

The speaker's assertion is illogical at best, and self-condemning at worst.

Perhaps this is one reason why Madhava did not wish to respond to this speaker's lecture "point by point" as you seem to desire. The speaker's lecture is a masterpiece of emotionalism disconnected from truth. As such, and since it contains such strong attacks against bona-fide Vaishnavas, it becomes difficult to respond to this speaker "point by point" while upholding proper Vaishnava standards of discourse in those areas where the original speaker himself has failed to do so.

I will stop here, but I hope the above is at least somewhat helpful.

Jay Radhe!

Thank you Madhava for helping!

Any other comments the more the better!

Is there something specific you'd like to hear comments about?

Jay Radhe! Vamsidas

Sastra clearly instructs the followers of Mahaprabhu to wear white cloth.

Where I can read such statement.? The rest of your point to point comments makes common sense. Thank you!

I must add that I believe that the life of true saints follows a certain unseen pattern but they reflect a divine image and by the sun rays of Krishna's mercy; I am just trying to see it. I beg for forgiveness for my impudence while I tried to be unaffected by the contrasts and relativities of maya.

Dear Sumukha,

In answer to your question, here is a segment of the essay to which Madhava referred you in his earlier post:



I urge you to read the whole of the essay, but the above is the portion that best answers your above question.

In Caitanya Caritamrita (Madhya 20.76-78) the meeting of Sanatana Gosvami with Sriman Mahaprabhu is narrated.

mishra sanatane dila nutan vasan; vastra nahi nila tiho kore nivedan
more vastra dite yadi tomar hoy man; nija paridhana eka deho puratan
tabe mishra puratan ek dhuti dila; tinho dui bahirvasa kaupin korila

Tapana Mishra gave Sanatan a new garment, but renounced Sanatan did not accept it. He asked Tapan Mishra: "If you want to give me a garment then give me one of your own leftover garments." Then Tapan Mishra gave Sanatan one of his old dhotis, which he tore in two, using one piece for a bahirvasa (outer cloth) and the other piece for a kaupin (loincloth)."

Since Tapan Mishra was a householder and saffron dhotis did not exist before Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati introduced them in 1918, it is clear that the garment Sanatan Gosvami accepted was white.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravartipada writes this commentary on the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.2.295 as well as his Ragavartma Candrika -

sadhaka sarirena vasas tu uttara slokarthatam prapta eva. sadhaka rupena yathavasthita dehena. siddha rupenantascintitabhistha tat saksat sevopayogi dehena. .......sadhaka-rupenanugamyamana ye vrajalokam sri rupa gosvamyadayam ye ca siddha-rupenanugamyamanam vrajalokam sri rupa manjaryadayas tad anusaratam.

.... But the next verse (1.2.295) clearly explains how one must live in Vraja physically. Living with the sadhaka rupa means in the physical body of the practising devotee, and the siddha rupa means one's own desired mentally conceived spiritual body, that is suitable for direct transcendental service to Sri Krsna. ...... How to follow in the footsteps of the people of Vraja? In one's physical body one follows in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Gosvami and other saints that lived in Vraja and in the mentally conceived spiritual body one follows in the footsteps of Srimati Rupa Manjari and other eternal associates of Krsna.

Thus it is established that one must follow the example of Rupa and Sanatana in the external body, in which they wore white garments.