Meeting Or Separation - Which one is higher?

Meeting Or Separation, Which one is higher?

In which sense do you mean higher?

There's been some discussion over this on the internet over the last year or so, particularly between ISKCON, Narayan Maharaja and their respective followers. However, I find it ludicrous that people who lack knowledge of the basics of Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu enter into debates over a topic discussed in the 15th chapter of Ujjvala Nilamani.

I do not know how well versed you are in the topic of bhakti-rasa. In general, I find that people should acquaint themselves better with the basic ideas of prayojana before attempting to examine such themes of rasa with logic and arguments.

If you wish to compare which one of the two is higher, you'll have to inform us on which scale do you wish to examine them. Therefore the point about having a foundation for the analysis.

You answer is a little harsh but I am accepting it as a truthful statement. I do not 'know' the basis of BRS neither am I a scholar or pretend to be one. As a matter of fact; sincerely speaking, I do not even know the extraordinary nature of my own self. This is the extent of my ignorance. The meaning of 'to know' for me, is to realized a subject matter and I am definetly very very very far away from it. I am still acting like I am the body.

"the rich man plans for tomorrow... the poor man for today' Therefore, I dare to ask the assembled devotees in this forum; Meeting Or Separation, which one is higher? It is not a political question. The point is,I am unaware that such topics have been discussed lately, between one group and the other group in the internet. Could you tell me where, So I can check out their position on the matter of sambhoga and vipralambha?. Shastra has been written for many different kinds of persons, who have so many different practices. I am just seeking yours and others noble help in my struggle of acquiring krishna sambhanda. My questions will vary, for example, right now, I am sttrugling, with the verse 9.22 of the gita.

Also I would like to say that I am learning a lot from this forum, so thanks to you all.

p.s. you could answer the question, according to you own realizations. If not,it is ok. Keep up the good work.

Dear Nandai,

My apologies if I sounded harsh. Let me try and address the question you put forth.

If you wish to compare vipralambha and sambhoga in terms of intensity of experience, then vipralambha has been described as being more intense in nature. During sambhoga, only the beloved is seen, while during vipralambha, it is as if the entire world were filled with the beloved.

If you wish to compare vipralambha and sambhoga in terms of the aspiration of the sadhaka, then the answer is, "neither of the two". We do not aspire for vipralambha or sambhoga, we aspire for the prema-seva of Yugala Kishora, with special preference to Radharani, in whatever situation She may be in.

This is why I called for a context for the question.

There has been some debate back and forth among some modern Gaudiya groups over the second issue, whether they should aspire for vipralambha or for sambhoga. If you haven't heard of it, good for you. You do not miss much.

What's the struggle with Gita 9.22? I wish I had the time to keep up the "scirptural studies" section. Unfortunately I never got beyond the beginning with it.

Ahhhh! I am enlightened, Madhavaji. Thank you very much for clarifying this.

Please,don't forget that there is Gaura-lila,also.

Gauranga's Rasaraja mood focuses on sambhoga(union),whereas His Radha bhava rasa relish mostly centers on vipralambha (separation).

with respect,

Hmm... To begin with, I take it that Nandai was asking in the context of Radha-Krishna lila. Moreover, even if it was not so, worship of Gaura as Rasaraja is not a part of the mainstream Gaudiya tradition, and even if it was, it wouldn't change the fact that vipralambha is more intense for a feeling.

Even if one finds that Gauranga Rasaraja concept is not the mainstream of Gauranga Vaisnavism it would be wise to recognize that the ocean of bhakti rasa is vast and the flavours of love the devotees exchange with their Lord are infinite.

Rupanuga Vaisnavism offers everyone the opportunity to serve and witness Radha-Krsna's madhura lila in the role of a manjari.But, will every jiva's eternal urge for conjugal love become satiated without directly taking part?And wouldn't the Lord wish to reciprocate with those desiring to love Him beyond the role of a spectator?

In ''Caitanya Mangala'' (Madhya 28) Gauranga promise:

bhAva sange je jana dekhaye mora anga
tAra saha mora bhAva kabhu nahe bhanga

''For those who become excited upon seeing my beautifull body,my excitement for them never ceases.Hence we will never be separated''.

In my humble opinion,this verse deserves contemplation.

with respect,

Jaya Radhe!

Madhava Prahbu,


In reference to the gïtä 9.22 I have to meditate by myself a little big longer, otherwise I will be guilty of being lazy. If I do not find a proper solution then I will cry for help. I appreciate your extended hand. Would you like to volunteer your realization on it? Please do so.

Thanks for you nice concise explanation. It really gives some light to what I found in my research, which I like to share with the assembled devotees,


"In the Räsa Pancadhyua, chapter thirty-one of the tenth canto, Shri Shukadeva Gosvämï is explaing that love is two sided. One side is sambhoga, meeting and the other is vipralambha, separation. Both must be there, otherwise neither Krishna nor the devotee can relish it. When Krishna was dancing and singing with the gopïs and touching each of their bodies, it is called meeting. When He disappeared from the räsa dance they all became mad, and that is called separation. Those who have not served Him like the gopïs will no be able to realize what is separation.

If a mother is not very atached to her child, how can she realize what is separation? Only a very good mother who is bhävuka, loving, can weep when her child is not there. A mother has more affection for her children than a father. A father will maintain them by hard labor, but a mother will maintain them with affection. Mother Yashoda has more affection for Krishna than Nanda Bäbä. If a mother does not have such a feeling of love for her children, she will not feel any separation when they go.

At our stage, we are only able to realize separation, since we are separated from Krishna. However, we do not realize love, because we have never known it. If a child is separated from his parents, he will feel love because the relationship is already there. But we are coming from tatastha-shakti, the marginal potency of the Lord. The potency of prema is there, but in a covered form. We should think that we have been separated form Krishna and realize Shri Shikshastakam #6."

It seems to me that contradict Madhava's second paragraph, when he said, "If you wish to compare vipralambha and sambhoga in terms of the aspiration of the sadhaka, then the answer is, "neither of the two". We do not aspire for vipralambha or sambhoga, we aspire for the prema-seva of Yugala Kishora, with special preference to Radharani, in whatever situation She may be in." Maybe he wants to explain this point a little be more extensive.

Sincerely,

Nandai

My apologies for my wrongful assumption when I said , “It seems to me, that contradict Madhava's second paragraph when he said, "If you wish to compare vipralambha and sambhoga in terms of the aspiration of the sadhaka, then the answer is, "neither of the two". We do not aspire for vipralambha or sambhoga, we aspire for the prema-seva of Yugala Kishora, with special preference to Radharani, in whatever situation She may be in."

He is 100% percent right. The Keyword which makes this statement so correct is “sadhaka”. Because it is imposible to have a feeling of separation from the Lord if love for him has not been awaken in our heart. Therefore, meeting and separation is irrevelant from a conditional platform. Therefore I going to make some deletions to what I posted couple days ago, “A mother has more affection for her children than a father. A father will maintain them by hard labor, but a mother will maintain them with affection. Mother Yashoda has more affection for Krishna than Nanda Bäbä. If a mother does not have such a feeling of love for her children, she will not feel any separation when they go. At our stage, we are only able to realize separation, since we are separated from Krishna. However, we do not realize love, because we have never known it. If a child is separated from his parents, he will feel love because the relationship is already there. But we are coming from tatastha-shakti, the marginal potency of the Lord.” (Deletions without permission of the author)


It was this article by Bhaktivinode Thakura that trigger the recognition of my mistake, but open one thousand more questions for me, anyway


Saptama-yama Sadhana

The internal symptom of devotion in the stage of perfection is that one worships Krsna in the mood of separation (vipralambha) When the lover and the beloved meet, they are called yukta (connected). Previous to their meeting, they are called ayukta (not connected). Whether connected or not connected, the ecstatic emotion arising due to not being able to embrace and kiss each other as desired is called vipralambha.). The Siksastaka (7) describes this mood as follows:

yugayitam nimesena
caksusa pravrsayitam
sunyayitam jagat sarvam
govinda-virahena me (1)

My Lord Govinda, because of separation from You, I consider even a moment a great millennium. Tears flow from my eyes like torrents of rain, and I see the entire world as void. In my agitation, a day never ends, for every moment seems like a millenium. Pouring incessant tears, my eyes are like clouds in the rainy season. The three worlds have become void because of separation from Govinda. I feel as if I were burning alive in a slow fire.

In the mood of vipralambha, purva-raga when attachment produced in both the lover and beloved before their meeting by seeing, hearing and so on becomes very palatable by the mixture of four ingredients, such as vibhava and anubhava, this is called purva-raga. Pravasa is a word used to indicate the separation of lovers who were previously intimately associated. This separation is due to their being in different places and is especially favorable in the execution of one's bhajana.

Purva-raga is described in the following five verses. In this verse from Srimad Bhagavatam (10.21.9), the gopis praise the good fortune of the flute, which drinks the nectar of Krsna's lips:

gopyah kim acarad ayam kusalam sma venur
damodaradhara-sudham api gopikanam
bhunkte svayam yad avasista-rasam hradinyo
hrsyat-tvaco 'sru mumucus taravo yatharyah (2)

My dear gopis, what auspicious activities must the flute have performed to enjoy the nectar of Krsna's lips independently and leave only a taste for us gopis, for whom that nectar is actually meant! The forefathers of the flute, the bamboo trees, shed tears of pleasure just as persons who are advanced in knowledge take pleasure to see their descendants engage in the service of the Lord. His mother, the river on whose bank the bamboo was born, feels jubilation, and therefore her blooming lotus flowers are standing like hair on her body.

The Srimad Bhagavatam (10.21.11) describes how the does and bucks worship Krsna and attain good fortune after hearing the sound of Krsna's flute:

dhanyah sma mudha-gatayo 'pi harinya eta
ya nanda-nandanam upatta-vicitra-vesam
akarnya venu-ranitam saha-krsna-sarah
pujam dadhur viracitam pranayavalokaih (3)

Blessed are these deer. Though merely dumb animals, they have approached Maharaja Nanda's son, who is gorgeously dressed and is playing on His flute. Indeed, both the does and the bucks worship the Lord with looks of love and affection.

It is stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.21.15) that by the sound of Krsna's flute, the rivers stop flowing and worship Krsna's lotus feet with lotus flowers:

nadyas tada tad upadharya mukunda-gitam
avarta-laksita-manobhava-bhagna-vegah
alingana-sthagitam urmi-bhujair murarer
grhnanti pada-yugalam kamalopaharah (4)

When the rivers hear the flute-song of Krsna, their minds begin to desire Him, and thus the flow of their currents are broken and their waters are agitated, moving around in whirlpools. Then with the arms of their waves the rivers embrace Murari's lotus feet and, holding on to them, present offerings of lotus flowers.

Govardhana Hill becomes jubilant by the touch of the feet of Rama and Krsna and worships Them with various offerings. As stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.21.18):

hantayam adrir abala hari-dasa-varyo
yad rama-krsna-carana-sparasa pramodah
manam tanoti saha-go-ganayos tayor yat
paniya-suyavasa-kandara-kandamulaih (5)

Of all the devotees, this Govardhana Hill is the best! O my friends, this hill supplies Krsna and Balarama, along with Their calves, cows, and cowherd friends, with all kinds of necessities water for drinking, very soft grass, caves, fruits, flowers and vegetables. In this way the hill offers respects to the Lord. Being touched by the lotus feet of Krsna and Balarama, Govardhana Hill appears very jubilant.
By hearing the sound of Krsna's flute the animate entities become inanimate and the inanimate entities become animate.

In the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.21.19) it is said:

ga gopakair anu-vanam nayator udara-
venu-svanaih kala-padais tanu-bhrtsu sakhyah
aspandanam gati-matam pulakas tarunam
niryoga-pasa-krta-laksanayor vicitram (6)

My dear friends, as Krsna and Balarama pass through the forest with Their cowherd friends, leading Their cows, They carry ropes to bind the cow's rear legs at the time of milking. When Lord Krsna plays on His flute, the sweet music causes the moving living entities to become stunned and the nonmoving trees to tremble with ecstasy. These things are certainly very wonderful.
O friend, by not obtaining Krsna my heart is breaking. When will providence give me Krsna's association?

Pravasa is described in the next four verses. In this state Radharani's emotions are most relishable for the devotees. One should read such passages as Bhramara-gita (Radharani's talks with the bumblebee). Radharani's emotional outburst is expressed in the following words of Sri Madhavendra Puri:

ayi dina-dayardra natha he
mathura-natha kadavalokyase
hrdayam tvad-aloka-kataram
dayita bhramyati kim karomy aham (7)

O my Lord! O most merciful master! O master of Mathura! When shall I see You again? Because of my not seeing You, my agitated heart has become unsteady. O most beloved one, what shall I do now?

The gopis blame Providence on their separation from Krsna in these words of the Srimad
Bhagavatam (10.39.19):

aho vidhatas tava na kvacid daya
samyojya maitrya pranayena dehinah
tams cakrtarthan viyunanksy aparthakam
vikriditam te 'rbhaka-cestitam yatha (8)

The gopis said: O Providence, you have no mercy! You bring embodied creatures together in friendship and love and then senselessly separate them before they fulfill their desires. This whimsical play of yours is like a child's game.

Separation from Krsna for even a moment is unbearable, as stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.39.29):

yasyanuraga-lalita-smita-valgu-mantra-
lilavaloka-parirambhana-rasa-gostam
nitah sma nah ksanam iva ksanada vina tam
gopyah katham nv atitarema tamo durantam (9)

When He brought us to the assembly of the rasa dance, where we enjoyed His affectionate and charming smiles, His delightful secret talks, His playful glances and His embraces, we passed many nights as if they were a single moment. O gopis, how can we possibly cross over the insurmountable darkness of His absence?

The overwhelming emotions experienced by Radharani in separation from Krsna are described in the Hamsaduta as follows:

yada yato gopi hrdaya madano nanda-sadanan-
mukundo gandhinyasta-nayam anurundhan madhu-purim
tadamanksiccintasariti ghanaghurnaparicayai-
ragadhayam radhamayapayasi radhavirahini (10)

When the Cupid of the gopis' hearts, Krsna, left the house of Nanda Maharaja and accompanied Akrura to Mathura, Srimati Radharani's mind was disrupted. She became almost mad because of separation from Krsna, and She drown in the deep whirlpools and waves of a fathomless river of anxiety.

Ten symptoms of separation are given in the Ujjvala-nilamani as follows:

cintatra jatarodvegau
tanavam malinangata
pralapo vyadhir unmado
mohomrtyurdasa dasa (11)

There are ten stages of lamentation due to separation: anxiety, wakefulness, mental agitation, thinness, uncleanliness, talking like a madman, disease, madness, illusion, and death.

Radharani is overwhelmed by these symptoms and feeling extreme misery. Feeling sharp pangs of separation, Radharani reproaches Krsna in the following verse from the Jagannatha-vallabha-nataka:

prema-ccheda-rujo 'vagacchati harir nayam na ca prema va
sthanasthanam avaiti napi madano janati no durbalah
anyo veda na canya-duhkham akhilam no jivanam vasravam
dvi-trany eva dinani yauvanam idam ha-ha vidhe ka gatih (12)

Our Krsna does not realize what we have suffered from injuries inflicted in the course of loving affairs. We are actually misused by love because love does not know where to strike and where not to strike. Even Cupid does not know of our weakened condition. What should I tell anyone? No one can understand another's difficulties. Our life is actually not under our control, for youth will remain for two or three days and soon be finished. In this condition, O creator, what will be our destination? One sakhi says to Radha, Be patient. Why are You becoming so anxious? What is the benefit of this anxiety? Your beloved, the best of heroes, will come soon. Radha replied, O sakhi, I don't see any way He will come. The disease caused by Our loving affairs is simply increasing, for He has not come from Mathura to save Me. Love does not know where to strike and where not to strike. Krsna is hard-hearted in His loving affairs, therefore I am most bewildered. On top of that, Cupid has pierced Me with his arrows. They don't understand My suffering and this life is flickering, with youth lasting for only a few days. My dear friend, please tell Me, will that jewel amongst heroes return to Vraja? O fate, where will I find solace?

A description of Radharani's agitation due to separation from Krsna is given the Krsna-karnamrta
(42):

kim iha krnumah kasya brumah krtam krtamasaya
kathayata kathamanyam dhanyam aho hrdayesayah
madhura-madhura-smerakare mano-nayanotsave
krpana-krpana krsne trsna ciram vata lambate (13)

Alas, what shall I do? To whom shall I speak? Let whatever I have done in hopes of meeting Krsna be finished now. Please say something auspicious, but do not speak about Krsna. Alas, Krsna is lying within My heart like Cupid, therefore how can I possibly give up talking of Him? I cannot forget Krsna, whose smile is sweeter than sweetness itself and who gives pleasure to My mind and eyes. Alas, My great thirst for Krsna is increasing moment by moment!

The hope for attaining Krsna has taken residence within My heart. But unfortunately that pitiable hope seems impossible to fructify.

Radharani's delirious talk in separation from Krsna is given in the Krsna-karnamrta (41):

amuny adhanyani dinantarani
hare tvad-alokanam antarena
anatha-bandho karunaika-sindho
ha hanta ha hanta katham nayami (14)

O My Lord, O Supreme Personality of Godhead, O friend of the helpless! You are the only ocean of mercy! Because I have not met You, My inauspicious days and nights have become unbearable. I do not know how I shall pass the time. Therefore, please tell this maidservant how to meet You.

Longing to see beloved Krsna is described in the Krsna-karnamrta (40):

he deva he dayita he bhuvanaika-bandho
he krsna he capala he karunaika-sindho
he natha he ramana he nayanabhirama
ha ha kada nu bhavitasi padam drsor me (15)

O My Lord! O dearest one! O only friend of the universe! O Krsna, O restless one, O ocean of mercy! O My Lord, O My enjoyer, O beloved to My eyes! Alas, when will You again be visible to Me?

Meeting with Krsna unfolds as explained in the Krsna-karnamrta (68):

marah svayam nu madhura-dyuti-mandalam nu
madhuryam eva nu mano-nayanamrtam nu
veni-mrjo nu mama jivita-vallabho nu
krsno 'yam abhyudayate mama locanaya (16)

My dear friends, where is that sweetly effulgent Krsna, Cupid personified, who is sweetness itself, the nectar of My eyes and mind, He who loosens the hair of the gopis, who is the supreme source of transcendental bliss and My life and soul? Has He come before My eyes again? Seeing Krsna come before My eyes has returned life to My body. All My miseries have gone far away. O friend! My heart is now comforted for I have regained My lost treasure.

The direct darsana of Krsna is described in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.32.2):

tasam avirabhuc chaurih
smayamana-mukhambujah
pitambara-dharah sragvi
saksan manmatha-manmathah (17)

Then Lord Krsna, with a smile on His lotus face, appeared before the gopis. Wearing a garland and a yellow garment, He directly appeared as one who can bewilder the mind of Cupid, who himself bewilders the minds of ordinary people

.

The mood of Vraja is glorified in the Lalita-madhava. While meeting Krsna in Nava-vrndavana in Dvaraka, Radha requests Him:

cirad asa-matram tvayi viracayantah sthira-dhiyo
vidadhyur ye vasam madhurima gabhire madhupure
dadhanah kaisore vayasi sakhi tam gokulapate
prapadyethas tesam paricayam avasyam nayanayoh (18)

O Krsna, persons with fixed minds have hoped for a long time that You will return to Madhupuri, which is filled with intense sweetness. O Lord of Gokula, please go there in Your youthful form and perform Your sweet pastimes before their eyes. This is My only request.

Feeling separation, Radha wishes to take Krsna back to Vrndavana, which is filled with ever-sweet memories. Again from the Lalita-madhava:

ya te lila-rasa parimalodgari-vanya-parita
dhanya ksauni vilasati vrta mathuri madhuribhih
tatrasmabhis catula-pasupi-bhava-mugdhantarabhih
samvitastam kalaya vadanollasi-venur-viharam (19)

O Krsna! Within Mathura-mandala is the most fortunate forest of Vrndavana. It is surrounded by forests ornamented with the fragrance of the sweet mellows of Your pastimes, which You perform within Your inconceivable energy. In the congenial atmosphere of that transcendental abode You would enjoy different sports with us gopis, whose hearts are overwhelmed with love for You. O son of Nanda, we desire to again enjoy pastimes there with You as You play on Your flute.

Feeling intense separation, the gopis rebuke the creator of their eyelids as they gaze at Krsna. The following statement from the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.82.39), describes the gopi's state while meeting Krsna at Kuruksetra:

gopyas ca krsnam upalabhya cirad abhistam
yat-preksane drsisu paksma-krtam sapanti
drgbhir hrdi-krtam alam parirabhya sarvas
tad-bhavam apur api nitya-yujam durapam (20)

While gazing at their beloved Krsna, the young gopis used to condemn the creator of their eyelids, (which would momentarily block their vision of Him). Now, seeing Krsna again after such a long separation, with their eyes they took Him into their hearts, and there they embraced Him to their full satisfaction. In this way they became totally absorbed in ecstatic meditation on Him, although those who constantly practice mystic yoga find such absorption difficult to achieve.

The great eagerness of the gopis to achieve Krsna in their own residence (their hearts) is described in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.82.48) as follows:

ahus ca te nalina-nabha padaravindam
yogesvarair hrdi vicintyam agadha-bodhaih
samsara-kupa-patitottaranavalambam
geham jusam api manasy udiyat sada nah (21)

Dear Lord, whose navel is just like a lotus flower, Your lotus feet are the only shelter for those who have fallen into the deep well of material existence. Your feet are worshiped and meditated upon by great mystic yogis and highly learned philosophers. We wish that these lotus feet may also be awakened within our hearts, although we are only ordinary persons engaged in household affairs. O Krsna! We are cowherd girls. We are not yogis, nor are we materialists. All our activities are dedicated to You. Our hearts are nondifferent from Vrndavana, so please keep Your lotus feet there and thus fulfill our desire.

Krsna's amorous conversation with the gopis at Kuruksetra is described in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.82.40):

bhagavams tas tatha-bhuta
vivikta upasangatah
aslisyanamayam prstva
prahasann idam abravit (22)

Seeing the love between Krsna and the gopis, the Lord's consorts from Dvaraka are astonished. In the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.82.44), Krsna says the living entities' affection for Him is always auspicious, and by that affection they ultimately attain Him”

Jiva Posted, ......Will every jiva's eternal urge for conjugal love become satiated without directly taking part?And wouldn't the Lord wish to reciprocate with those desiring to love Him beyond the role of a spectator?

Gopal Guru Gosvämï answered: "You are a maidservant of Shrimatï Rädhikä, and your eternal service is to render loving service unto Her. Sometimes, out of necessity, She may send you to be alone with Shri Krishna in a solitary place, and at that time, Krishna may express His desire to enjoy with you. However, you should never agree to His proposals. You are a däsï of Shrïmatï Rädhikä, and you never independently serve Krishna for His pleasure without Her permission.
You have equal loving attachment for Rädhä and Krishna, but still you should maintain greater earnestness for Her loving service than for Krishna's This is the meaning of sevä. Your sevä is to care for Shrï Rädhikä's comfort and pleasure in all the eight-fold pastimes of the ashta-käliya-lila. Shrila Raghunäatha däsa Gosväm has presented the outline of your service in Shri Viläpa kusumäñjali, based of Shri Svarüpa Dämodara's treatise."

With all respect,

Nandai

As Paurnamasi devi said in ''Vidagdha-madhava''(7.8)

''...If Krsna had not advented in Mathura and if Radhika hadn't come,the the universe would have been created without a reason.In particular,Cupid's role would have been pointless.''

What this means?

In my humble opinion,because Sri Krsna is the Paramatma in everyone's heart,the urge to love someone is inseparable from every living being.He is the ''atma ramana'' who awakens this most coveted desire within every soul.So,the jiva's unending desire for amorous love does have a purpose.Unfortunately,we only misdirect this propensity.

with respect,

With all due respect to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, IMHO, I do not see every living entity aspiring for manjari bhaava. There is this peculiar tendency among some sections of Gaudiya vaishnavas, especially Gaudiya Math, to brand anything other than manjari bhaava as aparaadha to Srimatiji, maayaavaada and what not. Of course, if one is aspiring to become a manjari, it may be so, but is it applicable to every living entity? I have heard respected Sannyaasis making comments about Sri Chandraavali -- "She is trying to enjoy Krishna." (her devotion is flawed, because she is not devoted to Srimatiji). Now I am surprised that such casual remarks can be made about an eternal associate of Sri Hari. Why is it that, to bolster one's own beliefs, others have to be addressed in gross derogatory terms? Isn't the weight of one's own conviction enough?

Somewhere I saw, Kubja's character being torn down bit by bit. Well how many of us have even the one pointed desire to enjoy Sri Hari? Kubja's prayojana may be of a lower character in Gaudiya vaishnava theology, however even Ruupa Gosvaami has agreed that her "desire for enjoyment" (if I remember correctly it is called saadhaarani rati) is transcendental and not mundane.

"spectator" may not do justice to the position of a manjari, however it is completely true that Gaudiya vaishnavism is, primarily, a daasya rasa sampradaaya. The account of a cowherd girl (Srimatiji) bringing milk for Srila Ruupa Gosvaami and Srila Sanaatan Gosvaami getting very disturbed by the acceptance of service from their object of worship brings this out clearly. Now I am not saying all this to address manjari bhaava in diminutive terms. Understanding of even shaanta rasa is beyond the capacity of a maayaa baddha jeeva, but the point is that not every living entity may have a desire for such a prayojana, even though it may be the highest goal achievable (in reality or in the understanding of a particular philosophy). In spite of all the concept of "bhaava aikyam" and 7 times the bliss of Srimatiji's bliss, some, like me, are not interested. The point to note here is that someone may not be aiming for mahaa-bhaava or this bhaava or that bhaava, but simply desiring a particular form of service (example - fanning Sri Hari), which is be all and end all for that person.

Then again there is this concept of "1000 times removed" which is ridiculous. I was attracted to Hare Krishna movement because I had this intrinsic desire that one day I could attain nearness to Sri Hari, however much a worm in the stool I may be now. Whether this is saamipya liberation or god knows timbuk2 liberation, I do not care. Nor am I trying to usurp the position of a nitya siddha and I do not think that such a desire is aparaadha against the associates of Sri Hari or that I am running away from the service of the devotees. Had I known that I would have to be necessarily a manjari, I would not have bothered to take the trouble of running away from college.

It would be good for the Guru's nowadays to:
1. Understand their own philosophy properly and more importantly an understanding bereft of bigotry.
2. Clearly put before the prospective disciple what is it they can give and whether the latter is suitable for such a prayojana.

In matters of taste, there is no disputing. One should not try to impose his own taste upon others. Let each choose his/her own way and have the kind of affection towards God he/she feels is befitting.

Particularly in the matter of Vraja-rasa the concept of innate attraction is at the root of the pursuit. One cannot and should not try to force a particular mood upon others simply because such a mood may be considered higher from his own angle of view.

Well, finally I found someone that does not conforms to public opinions, and take a position on this difficult question. Which one is higher meeting or separation? According to Srila Narayana Maharaja Meeting is greater than Separation. Please read it at http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture...e20030113.shtml . To him I am extremely grateful.

I am wondering, what is the opinion of Srila Ananda Das Babaji on this topic? I guess I have to wait to meet him in India, to get an answer. I am hoping to see him during Kartika. By his mercy.

Also, I was trying to buy his books but shipping is to high from India, I mean 'high'. Is there any distributor in USA; please let me know. Narayana Maharaj has his books free download. Still, I am buying the hard copy.




Hare Krishna!

I don't think it is a matter of taking a position one way or another. It is a matter of what the rasa-shastras teach on this matter.

With all due respect, I find that the lecture of Narayan Maharaja is full of very odd reasoning. I don't think anyone is proposing that "vipralambha forever" would be the object of our desires. To say that vipralambha is a more intense emotional state does not mean that one would desire for Radha and Krishna to be separated.

The first half of following verse was cited in the text you linked us with:

na vinA vipralambhena sambhogaH puSTim aznute |
kASAyite hi vastrAdau bhUyAn evAbhivardhate || UN 15.3 ||

"Just as without color one cannot dye a cloth, so withour vipralambha, sambhoga cannot be nourished."

One may say that without sambhoga, vipralambha would be useless. Again, on the other hand, if there was no vipralambha, there would be no intense longing and eagerness to act as the active principle at the root of the meeting. One cannot artificially separate the two.

We are returning to our original question: On what scale do you consider one superior or inferior? If this scale is not defined, the discussion is but words thrown in vain.

___________________

You can purchase the books of Pandit Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaj at http://www.krishnacaitanya.com . The shipping costs from Europe are not that high.

The words of Sri Radha, quoted in Padyavali.

taM prati rAdhA-vAkyam

saGgama-viraha-vikalpe
varam iha viraho na tu saGgamas tasya |
ekaH sa eva saGge
tribhuvanam api tanmayaM virahe ||239||

"Of meeting and separation, there is nothing superior to separation, for as I meet Him, He is only one, while during separation the three worlds are filled with Him."

Dear Madhava, Thank you for you prompt comments.

I heard that in the early 90's was a meeting in Vrindaban, and Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj and Srila Narayana Maharaj have an argument over the same question. Govinda Maharaj was in the side of Vipralambha and Narayana Maharaj was in the side of Sambhoga.

As you said in a previous posted, meeting or separation is not the goal for the sadhaka, but krishna prema is. Now, from the point of view of lila; by kirtana or smaranam, it is mandatory to have a proper perspective of all topics even though is above of my own realizations, at the same time, it is not above of my own sadhana. Therefore, I am trying to base the path of spiritual life by the operating principle of sadhu, guru and shastra. The problem is that when the operating principle is tested on this particular subject, there is a contradictory result. Which is making me believe from the information I am gathering, that the nature of the question is wrong. How is possible one could be higher than the other when they are not mutually exclusive, the variables depend of each other. It is improper to judge them independently.

Unfortunely i have to go now, English is my second language and takes time for me to put my thoughs down on the screen. My apologies.

Sincerely

I'm curious, what was the outcome of the debate?


Well, if you pay attention to the sadhu-samaja out there, be certain that there are always disagreements on various topics. It almost seems that "he is not a sage whose opinion does not differ", to cite the famous phrase of Mahabharata. In regards to the question at hand, I wouldn't give up on it that easily. It is basically a good question, albeit in need of specifying. I pointed this out in my very first response, "In which sense do you mean higher?" In terms of intensity of experience, it is evident that viraha is higher. If someone desires to disagree, he'll have to disagree with the words of Sri Radha as they appear in Rupa Gosvami's padyavali.


In the lecture you referred us to, Narayan Maharaja expresses a concern over neutrally examining the topic:



However, if one desires to carefully examine the realm of rasa and gain a comprehensive understanding of the same, one must observe rasa from a neutral perspective. Equating such approach with the position of Kamsa and Akrura is wrong. One cannot mix up the realm of lila and the considerations of the sadhaka, as Narayan Maharaja does here. It is none other than Rupa Gosvami who offered us a detailed examination of the realm of rasa in his writings, particularly in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu. The words of Krishna Das Kaviraja bear testimony to the validity of examining rasa from a neutral position:

nija nija bhAva sabe zreSTha kari mAne |
nija-bhAve kare kRSNa-sukha AsvAdane || 43 ||

taTastha haiyA mane vicAra yadi kari |
saba rasa haite zRGgAre adhika mAdhurI || 44 || Cai. Ca. 1.4 ||

"Everyone considers their very own mood the most precious, and with their own mood they cause Krishna to taste happiness. If this is examined from a neutral point of view, it is seen that in the Sringara-rasa the sweetness is greatest."

However, if one observed the realm of lila only in the mood of an associate, no such comparison could be made. And I am not going to attribute the fault of not being rasika enough to Krishnadas Kaviraja over his analysis of rasa from a neutral position.

Let me state it again. The sadhaka can analytically examine the realm of rasa as he studies the scriptures and the pastimes of Radha and Krishna. This is proper and desirable. As one enters siddha-avesa (absorption in identification with one's spiritual body), the philosophical considerations of a sadhaka fade aside and the mood of an associate becomes prominent.

However, one cannot start mixing up the considerations in siddha-deha and the considerations in sadhaka-deha. That is, unless one wishes to follow the way of Rupa Kaviraja. When the sadhaka becomes absorbed in the mood of his siddha-identity, he will fade away from this world into his inner realm. A highly elevated bhajananandi mahatma may incidentally exhibit the moods or actions of his siddha-identity in this world when his awareness is on the margin of the two realms, but he will certainly not do so in theological discussions.

I hope I made the point clear.

The last time Srila Govinda Maharaj (or Srila Sridhar Maharaj) saw Narayana Maharaj was in 1968.

For what I've heard, the relationship between the groups is not all that cordial. I can't say I'd hold the group of Sridhar Maharaja the most responsible one for that.

A good reference of that meeting is Mahanidhi Swami. He was there. Anyway, Govinda Maharaja is strongly on the side of Vipralambha. He Said that time, ' anyone who say that meeting is higher than separation, doesn't know the feeling that there is in vipralambha. No doubt.' (paraphrasing)

Now, what is the object of vipralambha? Meeting

Do you prefer to do your service to the divine couple in separation or Meeting? Probabily 99% would say Meeting. Lila smaranam

Do you prefer our swamiji with krishna or in separation from him? Meeting

Do you prefer to be in this side as a baddha jiva or in the other side? Meeting



Which feeling is more intense on the matter of love? Separation. Overwhelm the existence.

Where love really manifest? Separation

Ok that is four to two, Could you add some to this format?

Now, what is the object of vipralambha? Meeting

Srila Prabhupada said: To feel separation from the Spiritual Master or Krishna is very good position. That means one who is in pure love with Krishna and His Representative, Spiritual Master, he thinks always of Them. And this thinking process is Krishna consciousness. If we can think always of Krishna even in separation, that is Krishna Consciousness. And in the absolute platform, there is no difference of separation and meeting. The separation is also meeting, rather in separation one relishes the loving relationship more tasty.

Do you prefer to do your service to the divine couple in separation or Meeting? Probabily 99% would say Meeting. Lila smaranam

Srila Prabhupada: "Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated October 2, 1968, and noted the contents very carefully. I am so glad to learn that the New York devotees are all feeling my separation and you are feeling also; this is very blissful. In the transcendental platform, actually separation is more relishable than meeting. But either separation or meeting, the state is always absolute. Actually in the spiritual platform, there is no separation, but it is a different stages of rasas.

To feel separation from the Spiritual Master or Krishna is very good position. That means one who is in pure love with Krishna and His Representative, Spiritual Master, he thinks always of Them. And this thinking process is Krishna consciousness. If we can think always of Krishna even in separation, that is Krishna Consciousness. And in the absolute platform, there is no difference of separation and meeting. The separation is also meeting, rather in separation one relishes the loving relationship more tasty."

"Our, this Gaudiya-sampradaya, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's, in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's descendants, our line of God realization is that separation, feeling of separation. Not that we have got Krsna within our hand. No. The feeling of separation, worship of Krsna by feeling of separation is better than the worship by directly meeting. Vipralambha-seva."

Do you prefer our swamiji with krishna or in separation from him? Meeting

Srila Prabhupada: separation is so acute that it is actually more ecstatic than meeting. Ramananda Raya was expert in understanding these highly elevated dealings between Radha and Krsna, and he composed a nice song which he narrated to the Lord. The purport of the song is that the lover and the beloved, before meeting, generate a kind of emotion by the exchange of their transcendental activities. That emotion is called raga, or attraction. Srimati Radharani expressed Her willingness that "this attraction and affection between Us rise to the highest extent," but the cause of this attraction is Radharani Herself. "Whatever the cause may be,"
Radharani said, "that affection between You and Me has mixed Us in oneness. Now that it is the time of separation, I cannot see the history of the evolution of this love. There was no cause or mediator in Our love save Our meeting itself and the visionary exchange of feelings."

Pure love on the transcendental platform is the paragon of purity devoid of material affection and completely spiritual. Affection for matter is perishable, as indicated by the inebriety of sex in the material world, but there is no such inebriety in the spiritual world. Hindrances on the path of sense satisfaction cause material distress, but one cannot compare that with spiritual separation. In spiritual separation there is neither inebriety nor ineffectiveness, as one finds with material separation.

pahilehi raga nayana-bhange bhela
anudina badhala, avadhi na gela

na so ramana, na hama ramani
dunhu-mana manobhava pesala jani'

e sakhi, se-saba prema-kahini
kanu-thame kahabi vichurala jani'

na khonjalun duti, na khonjalun an
dunhukeri milane madhya ta panca-bana

ab sohi viraga, tunhu bheli duti
su-purukha-premaki aichana riti

SYNONYMS

pahilehi--in the beginning; raga--attraction; nayana-bhange--by
activities of the eyes; bhela--there was; anu-dina--gradually, day
after day; badhala--increased; avadhi--limit; na--not;
gela--reached; na--not; so--He; ramana--the enjoyer; na--not;
hama--I; ramani--the enjoyed; dunhu-mana--both the minds;
manah-bhava--the mental situation; pesala--pressed together;
jani'--knowing; e--this; sakhi--My dear friend; se-saba--all
those; prema-kahini--affairs of love; kanu-thame--before Krsna;
kahabi--you will say; vichurala--He has forgotten; jani'--knowing;
na--not; khonjalun--searched out; duti--a messenger; na--not;
khonjalun--searched out; an--anyone else; dunhukeri--of both of
Us; milane--by the meeting; madhya--in the middle; ta--indeed;
panca-bana--five arrows of Cupid; ab--now; sohi--that;
viraga--separation; tunhu--you; bheli--became; duti--the
messenger; su-purukha--of a beautiful person; premaki--of loving
affairs; aichana--such; riti--the consequence.

TRANSLATION

" 'Alas, before We met there was an initial attachment between
Us brought about by an exchange of glances. In this way attachment
evolved. That attachment has gradually grown, and there is no
limit to it. Now that attachment has become a natural sequence
between Ourselves. It is not that it is due to Krsna, the enjoyer,
nor is it due to Me, for I am the enjoyed. It is not like that.
This attachment was made possible by mutual meeting. This mutual
exchange of attraction is known as manobhava, or Cupid. Krsna's
mind and My mind have merged together. Now, during this time of
separation, it is very difficult to explain these loving affairs.
My dear friend, Krsna might have forgotten all these things.
However, you can understand and bring this message to Him, but
during Our first meeting there was no messenger between Us, nor
did I request anyone to see Him. Indeed, Cupid's five arrows were
Our via media. Now, during this separation, that attraction has
increased to another ecstatic state. My dear friend, please act as
a messenger on My behalf because if one is in love with a
beautiful person, this is the consequence.'

PURPORT

These verses were originally composed and sung by Ramananda Raya himself. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura suggests that during the time of enjoyment, the attachment might be compared to Cupid himself. However, during the period of separation, Cupid becomes a messenger of highly elevated love. This is called prema-vilasa-vivarta. When there is a separation, enjoyment itself acts like a messenger, and that messenger was addressed by Srimati Radharani as a friend. The essence of this transaction is simple:
loving affairs are as relishable during separation as during enjoyment. When Srimati Radharani was fully absorbed in love of Krsna, She mistook a black tamala tree for Krsna and embraced it.
Such a mistake is called prema-vilasa-vivarta.

Do you prefer to be in this side as a baddha jiva or in the other side? Meeting

That's all. Samsiddhir hari-tosanam. Bhagavata also confirms this. You do not look after whether it is loss or gain, but you have to see whether Krsna is satisfied. That's all. That is your only business. That is your only business. That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam:

atah pumbhir dvija-srestha
varnasrama-vibhagasah
svanusthitasya dharmasya
samsiddhir hari-tosanam

Hari-tosanam. The real perfection of life is whether by your actions, Krsna is satisfied. That is perfection. You don't consider of your personal victory, defeat, loss or gain, or distress or happiness. Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung that: "When I work very difficult task for Krsna, that difficult
task becomes very happiness for me. That difficult task becomes very happiness for me." That is the standard of happiness. In the material world, there is duality. In the absolute world, there is
simply happiness. There is nothing else. Just like when Krsna is going to Mathura, all the gopis become very, very distressed, crying. But we cannot understand what is the happiness of that distress. That we cannot understand from this material point of view. That is greatest happiness. When the gopis were crying in separation from Krsna, that is greater happiness than meeting Krsna, than meeting Krsna. This is Krsna philosophy. That is now beginning.

sukha-duhkhe same krtva
labhalabhau jayajayau
tato yuddhaya yujyasva
naivam papam avapsyasi

Thank you very much.

Which feeling is more intense on the matter of love? Separation. Overwhelm the existence.

That is love. There is no return. Just like Radharani's love to Krsna. She does not require any return. You see? Krsna left Vrndavana, Radharani, and their whole life remained simply crying for Krsna. Krsna never returned. But still, they loved Krsna. That is love. That love is being shown by Caitanya Mahaprabhu: "Where is Krsna? Where is Krsna?" That's Radharani's separation, love in separation. So love means without any return, without any sense gratification, without any consideration. That is love.

That is love. Aslisya. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's... Aslisya va pada-ratam pinastu mam adarsanan marma-hatam karotu va . The lover is saying to the beloved, "Either You embrace me with love
or you kick me, trample me down under Your feet. And if You make me brokenhearted without meeting me, so whatever You like, You can do. Still I love You."

Where love really manifest? Separation

Srila prabhupada: "I can only say that there is an emotional activity called prema-vilasa-vivarta, which I may try to explain but I do not know whether You will be happy to hear it." In prema-vilasa there are two kinds of emotional activities--separation and meeting. That transcendental separation is so acute that it is actually more ecstatic than meeting. Ramananda Raya was expert in understanding these highly elevated dealings between Radha and Krsna, and he composed a nice song which he narrated to the Lord. The purport of the song is that the lover and the beloved, before meeting, generate a kind of emotion by the exchange of their transcendental activities. That emotion is called raga, or attraction. Srimati Radharani expressed Her willingness that "this attraction and affection between Us rise to the highest extent," but the cause of this attraction is Radharani Herself. "Whatever the cause may be,"
Radharani said, "that affection between You and Me has mixed Us in oneness. Now that it is the time of separation, I cannot see the history of the evolution of this love. There was no cause or mediator in Our love save Our meeting itself and the visionary exchange of feelings."

Pure love on the transcendental platform is the paragon of purity devoid of material affection and completely spiritual. Affection for matter is perishable, as indicated by the inebriety of sex in the material world, but there is no such inebriety in the spiritual world. Hindrances on the path of sense satisfaction cause material distress, but one cannot compare that with spiritual separation. In spiritual separation there is neither inebriety nor ineffectiveness, as one finds with material separation.

"The highest perfection of adhirudha affection in conjugal love involve meeting (madana) and separation (mohana). In the ecstasy of madana, meeting, there is kissing, and in the ecstasy of mohana, separation, there is udghurna and citrajalpa. As far as citrajalpa is concerned, in Srimad-Bhagavatam, there is a portion
known as Bhramara-gita in which various kinds of citra jalpa are mentioned. Udghurna is a symptom of separation, and there is also a symptom called transcendental insanity. In that transcendental
insanity one thinks that he himself has become the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In such an ecstasy, he imitates the symptoms of Krsna in different ways.

There are two kinds of dresses worn in that relationship of conjugal love, and they are called sambhoga and vipralambha. On the sambhoga platform, the dresses are unlimited, and on the
vipralambha they are four in number. The ecstasy exhibited before the lover and beloved meet, the ecstasy experienced between them after meeting, the state of mind experienced by not meeting, and
the state of mind experienced after meeting fearing separation are called vipralambha. That vipralambha serves as a nourishing element for future meetings. When the lover and beloved meet all
of a sudden and embrace one another, they feel an ecstasy of happiness, and the state of mind they experience in that ecstasy is called sambhoga. According to the situation, sambhoga ecstasy
is also known by four names: (1) sanksipta, (2) sankirna, (3) sampanna, (4) samrddhiman. Such symptoms are also visible during dreams.

The mental state experienced before meeting is called purvaraga. The obstacles which sometimes impede the meeting between lover and beloved are called mana, or anger. When the lover and beloved are separated, the mental state experienced is called pravasa. Feelings of separation which are present under
certain conditions even when the lovers meet are called love anxieties (prema-vaicittya). Such love anxieties are exhibited in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.90.15) by the princesses who kept awake
nights and watched Krsna sleep. They were afraid of being separated from Krsna, and they always talked amongst themselves about how they had been affected by Krsna's beautiful eyes and His smile."

Could you please always make a point yourself along with posting a quotation? Otherwise it may remain unclear to others where you're heading at. Just to keep the discussion going.

This is an old thread, but reading this I would like to suggest that the manjari bhava sadhaka does aspire for sambhoga- sambhoga with Radha (not sambhoga a la dirty hari but merely meeting, togetherness) as the beloved Deity (whose other-half just happens to be Krishna).