The falldown of the jiva -

Hare Krishna. All glories to all Vaisnavas.

Could you please give some comments on the following quotes on the origin of the jiva?

Thank you in advance.
Avadhuta Raya das


** "Then the soul leaves the material body and goes to the effulgent Supreme
Personality of Godhead. The soul then regains his original spiritual form
and in that form he enjoys many pastimes, eating and playing with the
Supreme Personality of Godhead." (Chandogya Upanisad 8.12.3)

** When the soul is released from Maya's prison, at the moment he is at once
liberated. , when he is thus situated in his original form, the soul
begins to perform an endless series of spiritual activities.
(Jaiva Dharma)by Bhaktivinode Thakur, ch.17)

** Even though he may still reside in the material world, an individual
soul intent on reviving his original spiritual nature is very fortunate.
In the end he regains his original spiritual nature. (Tattva Viveka txt.15 of Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

** The material ego of this material linga-sarira then covers the eternal
spiritual ego of the individual spirit soul. In the soul's eternal
spiritual form, the spiritual ego understands its relationship with the
spiritual Krsna-sun. (Jaiva Dharma by Bhaktivinoda Thakur, ch.15)


**Having forgotten Krishna, the conditioned living entity is suffering the
misdirection and perversion of his own socalled intelligence. The living
entities are fragmental parts of the supreme shelter, Krishna, but have
fallen from Krishna's kingdom of spiritual pastimes (Srimad Bhagavatam 11,2,38,
purport, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

** the words visnu-seva-rahita kare mean that maya deprives the living
entity of devotional service. The word rahita followed by the verb kare
first means "to repeal, to withdraw, to abolish." Therefore maya "repeals,
withdraws, or abolishes" the jiva's devotional service to Vishnu. ( S.B.
11.2.48, purport, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura
**Liberation is nothing but going back to the original position, that is
offering our services to the Eternal Being (Sri Caitanya's Teachings by
by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Takura.,p.116).

** we can go back to the higher rasa if we are anxious to be eternal
rasikas." (Sri Caitanya Teachings. by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, p.120)

** "The subjection of the soul to the laws of a foreign mistress is the
result of his own deliberate choice. He can easily revert to the state
of free existence by the exercise of the same freedom of choice... The
soul is a tiny particle of the Universal Soul. By his constitution
he is subject to the spiritual power of the Divinity of which he is a
constituent part. When he chooses to function in his own position in the
spiritual system and in subordination to the laws of the spiritual realm
he is constitutionally free. Whenever he chooses deliberately not to
serve the Absolute he thereby ipso facto loses this natural or free state
and is compelled to submit to the Divine Will under pressure. This
thralldom he learns to prefer to real freedom by the tricks of the illusory
Energy." (Sri Caitanya . by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,

., pp. 447-448).

**jiva possessing this quality of being infinitesimal can possibly
change into the other state.(Jaiva Dharma. by Bhaktivinoda THakura

**in his conditioned state, his subtle material body veils
this beautiful form and the gross material covering completely
corrupts and perverts his original identity.
(Jaiva Dharma by Bhaktivinode Thakur.)

**in a close encounter with maya-sakti (illusory potency) his spiritual
form is capable of becoming eclipsed and concealed.(Jaiva Dharma. by Sri Caitanya's Teachings

* *however elevated a position a liberated soul may attain, his
incomplete constitution stays permanently with him-this is the
definition of jiva-tattva. Thus the Vedas iterate that Bhagavan
is the Lord of maya and jiva is in all situations susceptible to maya's
subjugation.(Jaiva Dharma. by Sri. Caitanya Teachings.).

**jiva, who, due to this false identification, has been divested of his
true spiritual identity.(Jaiva Dharma., by Sri Caitanya Teachings.)

**however, the tatastha is due to being infinitesimal(Jaiva Dharma a ., by S.B.T.)

**also liberated souls are marginal (are also small)(Jaiva Dharma., by Sri Caitanya Teachings .)

** When materialism is eclipsed, the original form of the soul is
spontaneously manifested. (Jaiva Dharma. by Sri Caitanya Teachings., ch. 17)

** S.B.11.2.37 The first result of contact with maya (ignorance) was
mistaken identity concerning the jiva true form. Forgetting his
spiritual form, the jiva took on a material form, and through his
self-identity fell into deep forgetfulness of his role as servant of
the Lord. Maya bestowed two coverings--the gross and subtle bodies-
over the spiritual form. (From Sri Caitanya Siksamrta) by Bhaktivonoda Thakura

** When the soul thus has a false conception of his identity, his
original nature becomes perverted. The original nature of the pure soul is
pure love. That pure love appears in the subtle material body
in a perverted way as material pleasure, suffering, lust and hatred.
Jaiva Dharma. by B.T., ch.2)

*** By forgetting "I am eternally a servant of Lord Krsna", the individual
souls commit a crime. They are at fault. It is because of this crime that
the witch Maya punishes them. These criminal souls are sent to the prison
that is the world of Maya. (Jaiva Dharma. by B.T., ch.16)

** cit body is manifested in Vaikuntha. Being in material world, it
is hidden under two coverings. (Sri Caitanya Siksamrta)

** "The conception that 'I am in essence the eternal servant of Krsna,'
which was in cit constituent of jiva becomes transformed as servant of
visaya, i.e. matter. In this way, jiva's bondage with maya is established." (Sri Caitanya Siksamrtam, p.157)

** "Jiva who is essentially cit had pure vanity ['consciousness'] that
he is servant of God and possessed such signs, according to his
particular nature. That vanity took recourse to pure vanity of jiva
whose nature is cit only. By taking to cit-svarupa he had the sense of
determining right and wrong and also pure intellect for enjoying joy.
He had knowledge that God is the Ultimate Being and taking Him as
visaya he had a mind capable of meditation. But coming in contact
with matter these have been turned into gross material body and mind
thereby those pure original propensities have become impure. Therefore
that rasa which taking to cit-svarupa was pure bhava before has been
perverted by its impure reflection...

** "Jiva and God both taste rasa. When jiva tastes, then God becomes
tasted. When God tastes, then jiva [devotee] becomes tasted. Both are
reciprocal. In reality rasa is the only object to be tasted. The
process of rasa is only to be tasted and the Sentience alone can taste it...
From pure rati, it can rise up to the highest limit of maha-bhava.
But when pure rati falls down in this mundane world, it mixes up with
matter and becomes perverted. It then creates material infatuation."
(Sri Caitanya Siksamrtam, p. 228)

** As long as the jiva retains his pure spiritual condition he exhibits
his spiritual function in his uneclipsed form. When the jiva is
contaminated by relationship with the eclipsing potency [maya] only
then, by reason of the perversion of his proper function, he is not
fully pure and feels helpless and afflicted with mundane pleasure and pain.
The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the jiva's loss
of all recollection of the servitorship of Krsna." (Jaiva-dharma, p. 12)

** "So long as the jiva continues pure, he cherishes his function as his
own. His egoism then identifies itself with his servitorship of Krsna.
His pure egotism, however, suffers a contraction and assumes various
forms when he is defiled by relationship with maya."
(Jaiva-dharma, pp. 12-13)

** by contact with maya the jiva becomes impure, then a distortion of
his proper functional nature occurs and he becomes impure, devoid of
shelter and pummeled by happiness and distress. As soon as the jiva
has forgotten his servitude to Krsna, the paths of samsara confront him."
(Jaiva-dharma)

** Do you know Me, your friend with whom you consulted in the past?"brahmana uvaca
ka tvam kasyasi ko vayamsayano yasya socasi
janasi kim sakhayam mamyenagre vicacartha ha (Bhag. 4.28.52)

** The verb vi-car, with the instrumental (here yena), means"to associate or have intercourse with." Furthermore, Monier-Williams states that this sense of the word is characteristic of the Bhagavata Purana. Thus Srila Prabhupada's translation,"you consulted," is excellent. Also,"to associate or have intercourse with" is indeed also the meaning of the verb mil, from which comes militva,"having met or associated with," the word used here. Thus it is clear that Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura is using his suggested synonym militva precisely in that sense.

** meanings for the verb mil: to meet (as friends or foes), encounter, join, fall in with (instr., dat., gen. or loc.), come
** In his commentary on Bhagavad-gita 15.3, Sripada Ramanujacarya
indicates that the living entity's material existence does indeed have
a beginning, but that this beginning is, literally, immemorial; that is,
the living being cannot recall or understand it.

**In his commentary on Bhagavad-gita 15.3, Sripada Ramanujacarya indicates
that the living entity's material existence does indeed have a beginning
, but that this beginning is, literally, immemorial; that is, the living
being cannot recall or understand it.

** Vijayadhvaja Tirtha states in his Pada-ratnavali commentary on
this verse: "It cannot be settled that 'in this [specific] time
[the bondage] was begun,' thus it is called anadi."asmin kale
prarabdham ity aniyamad anadi. (VDT on Bhag. 6.5.11)


**When he is imprisoned in the material world, the spirit soul does
not lose his original spiritual form,the form he had in the spiritual
world of Vaikuntha. However, because of contact with matter the
imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in
Vaikuntha. Still, his original spiritual form does not cease to exist.
The soul's faith, desire and happiness are then directed toward matter.
The soul's rasas, which were originally manifested in the spiritual world,
are then perverted and reflected into the pains, pleasures and various
other states in the material world.(Prema pradipa by Sri Caitanya Teachings,p.83).

**When we are imprisoned in the material world we search for what had been
in the Vaikuntha-rasas." (Pp. by S.Caitanya Teachings., p. 96)

**...the precise form of the soul's constitutional form was in fact
previously known and existed in perfection.(Vedanta sara of Ramanujacarya)

**soul's pure qualities are shrunk or contracted in material existence
and then expanded upon liberation.(Sri Bhasya of Ramanujacarya).

I replied already in an e-mail to you.

---

Dear Avadhuta Raya,

There is little I can comment unless you supply me with the original Sanskrit texts. The translations are too often inaccurate projections of the translator's own ideas, not true to the original text. In addition, most of the citations you have given come from secondary sources, not from the foundational writings of the Gaudiya
Vaishnava tradition.

--- Madhavananda

---

Essentially any and all discussions on the quotes above will be more or less devoid of meaning as long as we don't have the original texts at our disposal.

As for the primary sources, I would like to have the following bits in Sanskrit:

- Chandogya Upanisad 8.12.3
- Sri Bhasya (unknown)
- Vedanta Sara (unknown)

You may wish to review this topic.

Dear Devotee,

There are many references throughout the Shastra that give geographical
Locations as well as destinations of the spirit soul (Jeeva).

Basic understanding will place the embodied soul in one of the following;

1.Material world i.e. lower. Middle, higher, planets in any species-Indragopa - demigod.

2.Brahman- spiritual effulgence - jeevas reside here but have no seva.

3.Vaikunta - spiritual planets - jeevas live here and serve the lord of Vaikunta with awe and reverence.

4. Goloka - The Acme of all spiritual planets. Here the jeevas serve the Lord of
Vrindaban in a mood of intimacy according to their individual choosing.

Note:
The jeeva maybe embodied or not if he is engaged in activities of pure devotion he is said to be liberated. If the Jeeva has other interests he is said to be conditioned or covered by Maya.

- Alan

Dear Alanji,
Thanks for sending me a copy of the above. I am quite familiar with these type of descriptions written by some groups of Gaudiya devotees. What interests me nowadays is that there are many Vaishnavas who would disagree with these descriptions (and perhaps that is the fault of the translation, as Madhava says). For example your description of Brahman as a 'geographical location' would surprise those who are followers of Vaishnava Vedanta.

Why don't you consult the followers of Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhva directly on the internet? You will find their views interesting.

Some observations:

Chaandogya Upanishad 8.12.3

evamevaishha saMprasaado.asmaachchhariiraatsamutthaaya paraM
jyotirupasaMpadya svena ruupeNaabhinishhpadyate sa uttamapurushhaH
sa tatra paryeti jakshatkriiDanramamaaNaH striibhirvaa yaanairvaa
GYaatibhirvaa nopajanam+ smarannidam+ shariiram+ sa yathaa
prayogya aacharaNe yukta evamevaayamasmiJNchhariire
praaNo yuktaH

'Thus does that serene being, arising from this body, appear in its own form, as soon as it has approached the highest light (the knowledge of Self) . He (in that state) is the highest person (uttama purusha). He moves about there laughing (or eating), playing, and rejoicing (in his mind), be it with women, carriages, or relatives, never minding that body into which he was born.

This "svena ruupena" does not necessarily have to be fall from Vaikuntha. It could be -- jiva's svaroopa covered from beginningless time (dvaita point of view).


SB 4.28.52

brahmana uvaca
ka tvam kasyasi ko vayam
sayano yasya socasi
janasi kim sakhayam mam
yenagre vicacartha ha

The Braahmana said, "Who are you? Whose are you? Who is this lying here for whom you are lamenting. Do you know me -- your friend with whom you had formerly consulted."

Baladeva Vidyaabhushana (Govinda Bhaashya) says the jiva is in Brahman in deep sleep.


Supporting evidence: Srila A. C. Bhaktivedaanta Swami Prabhupaada purport to SB SB 4.28.52

When a person's relative dies, renunciation is automatically visible. Consultation with the Supersoul seated within everyone's heart is possible only when one is completely free from the contamination of material attachment. One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramatma feature sitting within everyone's heart. The Paramatma is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. The Lord can reside within the heart, and He can also come out before a person and give him instructions. Thus the spiritual master is not different from the Supersoul sitting within the heart. An uncontaminated soul or living entity can get a chance to meet the Paramatma face to face. Just as one gets a chance to consult with the Paramatma within his heart, one also gets a chance to see Him actually situated before him. Then one can take instructions from the Supersoul directly. This is the duty of the pure devotee: to see the bona fide spiritual master and consult with the Supersoul within the heart.

When the brahmana asked the woman who the man lying on the floor was, she answered that he was her spiritual master and that she was perplexed about what to do in his absence. At such a time the Supersoul immediately appears, provided the devotee is purified in heart by following the directions of the spiritual master. A sincere devotee who follows the instructions of the spiritual master certainly gets direct instructions from his heart from the Supersoul. Thus a sincere devotee is always helped directly or indirectly by the spiritual master and the Supersoul. This is confirmed in Caitanya-caritamrta: guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija. If the devotee serves his spiritual master sincerely, Krsna automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasadad bhagavad-prasadah. By satisfying the spiritual master, one automatically satisfies Krsna. Thus the devotee becomes enriched by both the spiritual master and Krsna. The Supersoul is eternally the friend of the living entity and always remains with him. The Supersoul has always been ready to help the living entity, even before the creation of this material world. It is therefore stated here: yenagre vicacartha. The word agre means "before the creation." Thus the Supersoul has been accompanying the living entity since before the creation.


SB 6.5.11

bhuh ksetram jiva-samjnam yad
anadi nija-bandhanam
adrstva tasya nirvanam
kim asat-karmabhir bhavet

This material field of activity of the jiva giving him false designations and which causes beginningless bondage to himself -- without seeing to the cessation of the same, what use is there of temporary fruitive activities.

Vijayadvaja Teertha: asmin kale prarabdham ity aniyamad anadi.
This is one way to explain anaadi. Regress to any point backwards in time, the jiva was still having a load of karma on his head. There is no mention of fall from Vaikuntha.

Kishalaya

Adiyenji,

I agree with you as to meanings being lost in the translations. Some words have caused much grief and confusion for many seekers of truth.

For example the word Diksha. Some have translated it as "Initiation" which does not facilitate many Sadhus and there teachings. For example Srila Krsna Das Kaviraja said he was a disciple of Jiva Goswami and Jiva Goswami said he did not have any disciples. Jiva did say that he had many students. So my point is, in my opinion the English phrase " allowed entrance " would be more suitable. When one is accepted by a teacher and accepts the teachers "teachings" then he is allowed to proceed. The formality of vows and fire should also be performed don't get me wrong.

As for the definition of Brahman - it would depend on its utility. I was referring to the spiritual energy which is all pervasive, but not conceivable by mundane
Senses.

Any way your point is well taken.

- Alan

Vows and fire?

The use of an agni-hotra at initiation ceremonies is not universal. Gaudiya Math and its offshoots may follow that practice, but I am unaware of any other followers of Sri Caitanya that do so. I suspect it was 'borrowed' from either the Sri Sampradaya or a smarta Brahmin sect. It may be mentioned in Hari Bhakti Vilasa, but then again much of that text is not actually put into practice by Rupanuga bhaktas. From what I have heard, the TM organization founded by Maharshi Mahesh Yogi also perform the agni-hotra when dispensing mantras, as well as having the candidates cast bananas into the fire.

Dear Vaisnavas. Thank you for your answers, I am still pondering the answers. While doing that some more questions came up.



(1)I saw the terms used "tatastha-loka", where is that in relation to viraja
Do new souls manifest from there but then does Krishna have potential which is
brought out:
some souls are eternally dull, then come to bliss; Krsna or choose for maya for some time and then come to bliss (ultimately). Why
not awaken them for eternity? Why keep some in numbness, so long in
avyakta(non-manifestation)?


(2) The tatastha-loka is " since the beginning(anadir)" emptied since all chose 'then'
for maya or Krsna. Then it doesn't exist any more.

(3)I read in Jaiva Dharma
"If Mahavishnu situates Himself in jiva-sakti, uncountable millions of jivas come...the jivas from the tatastha position. These jivas are weak and have a chance to come into this world. Those who manifested in Vaikuntha, having the support of svarupa-sakti, can never fall down".
This seems unfair; why is it that some have become or are made jivas out of Mahavisnu, meant/made to suffer, and others can eternally and increasingly enjoy, having manifested in Vaikuntha from Baladeva or Sankarsana?


(4) It is described that Mahavishnu
expands souls who get to see maya or the cit world
But at the time Mahavisnu starts creating the material world
the
varieties of the material world are not yet manifested (by Brahma)How can the soul become attracted to maya.

(5) The material world is limited, the spiritual world is unlimited.
Because all souls will get liberated,the material world will be empty, or should be already empty.

Thank you in advance.
Your servant Avadhuta Raya das.

There is really no tatastha-loka as a geographical location. Where is this term from? Tatastha-sakti simply implies the marginal tendency of the jiva.



Back to the basics... "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."



The idea you're expressing as tatastha-loka sounds like a soul-container in which God kept all the souls, and one day dumped them out. Such a place or thing does not exist now, it will not exist in the future, and it has never existed in the past.

Anadi does not mean "since the beginning", it means "without a beginning". There was never any beginning for the bondage, there was never any first choice. If there was, what preceded that choice since beginningless time is the next question, ad infinitum. But there is no beginning.



Those lucky souls can eventually experience the infinite compassion of the Lord. Lucky, lucky. How sweet it is.

Besides, unfair to whom? The souls are but fragmental individual parts of Himself.



As far as I know of the writings of the acaryas, this theory did not exist prior to the 1900's Bengal, when Christian influence, with its linear conception of time, prompted people to try and twist the tradition to fit the Western frame of mind. The premises are wrong, there is no first beginning in the beginningless.



The spirit souls are material or spiritual? So, the amount of spirit souls in this world is also unlimited, although the jada-prakriti (dull nature) may be limited.

Dear Devotee,

Some may use the vows and fire others bath in the baptisimal waters.

Some may shake hands. Whatever the ritual at the time the link is made.

I remember reading in the Caitanya Caritamrita that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu
traveled to south india and converted the Smartas into Nama Acharyas. No formal initiations took place, only the loud chanting of the holy names in SANKirtan took place.


- Alan

This conclusion is the direct result of the thesis "God created jivas". Whan one understands that the nitya baddha and the nitya muktas are anaadi, and the cycle of manifestation and non-manifestation (in material creation) is not creation and destruction of the baddha jiva and that in the unmanifest state the jiva is existing with all its desires, then the above conclusion dies a natural death. God is fair because He is giving each jiva what he wants. Over and above that God is compassionate, which shows in His punishment and instruction, both of which are needed for progress.

Kishalaya

maya is the limiting adjunct, although her expanse is unlimited, being infused with the divine power (daivi hi esha guna mayi), in that she can manifest unlimited universes accomodating unlimited baddha jivas and therefore the material creation will never be empty however many jivas attain liberation.

Kishalaya

prabhu kohe sab jiva mukti yabe pabe;
ei to brahmanda tabe sab sunya hobe.
haridasa bole 'tomara yavat martye sthiti;
tavat sthavare jangama sarva jiva jati.
sab mukti kori tumi vaikunthe pathaibe;
suksma jive punah karme udbuddha koribe.
sei jiva hobe iha sthavara jangama;
tahate bhoriye brahmanda jeno purva sama

"Mahaprabhu said: "If all the conditioned souls would attain liberation the world would become empty." Haridasa replied: "As long as You are in this mortal world You will liberate all the mobile and immobile creatures and send them to Vaikuntha. Then You will again engage subtle (dormant, new) living entities in further fruitive activities, and these mobile and immobile living entities will fill the world up like before" [C.C. Antya 3,77-80]
This is in line with Visnu dharmottara Purana (1.81.12):
ekaikasmin nare muktim kalpe kalpe gate dvija;
abhavisyajjagacchunyam kalasyader abhavatah
"Because time has no beginning, the world would be empty by now if only one person per kalpa had been liberated." Markandeya answers: (1.81.13)

jivasyanyasya sargena nare muktim upagate;
acintya saktir bhagavan jagat purayate sada
"When someone is liberated, the Supreme Lord, who has inconceivable potency, creates another jiva and and thus always keeps the world full."

"suksma jive punah karme udbuddha koribe"

It remains to be seen how many agree with sukshma being interpreted as new. AFAIK, sukshma is subtle.

Srila AC Bhaktivedaanta Svaami Prabhupaada's version

Haridäsa said, "My Lord, as long as You are situated within the material world, You will send to the spiritual sky all the developed moving and nonmoving living entities in different species. Then again You will awaken the living entities who are not yet developed and engage them in activities. In this way all moving and nonmoving living entities will come into existence, and the entire universe will be filled as it was previously."

sukshma-jive—the undeveloped living entities

"jivasyaanyasya sargena" in face of stronger evidence is to be translated in the same manner as "tadaatmaanam srjaamyaham". BTW if you look at all the evidence in the page from where these two quotes are taken from then the conclusion is all clear
http://www.bhajankutir.net/nitai-zine-vol-7/node6.html

Some direct statement from the lowest common denominators:

gIta:

na jAyate mriyate vA kadAchit.h
nAyaM bhUtvA bhavitA vA na bhUyaH |
ajo nityaH shAshvato.ayaM purANo
na hanyate hanyamAne sharIre || II-20


kAThakopanishad:

na jAyate mriyate vA vipashchit.h
nAyaM kutashchit.h na babhUva kashchit.h |
ajo nityaH shAshvato.ayaM purANo
na hanyate hanyamAne.api dehe || I-2-18

ajah = unborn

Kishalaya

Interesting point. I forgot to copy the rest of this sloka from the Vishnu dharmottara, however, which says: srjyante ca mahakalpe tadvidhas capare janah
"(Those who attain Brahmaloka become liberated along with Brahma). Then, in the next kalpa, the Lord creates similar beings."
The word srjyante means creating. Would that also mean 'emerging from Mahavishnu's body at the time of Creation'?

The inconceivable potency is the infinitude. However long however many get liberated, infinity cannot be depleted. This is where math fails.

Kishalaya

My Morman friends also say that spirt souls appear in this world when there is an opening. They say that the spirt souls are existing in spirt but need to go through human existance to realize the spirtual body and this is done by proper utilization of independance.

Dear vaisnavas. I have some more remarks and questions.

you wrote: "The inconceivable potency is the infinitude. However long however many get liberated, infinity cannot be depleted.":

"The material creation will never be empty, however many jivas attain liberation".:

reply: We are discussing His seperated energies. The spiritual energy
(Vishnu-tattva and nitya-siddhas) is unlimited. His seperated energies
(jiva-sakti or maya-sakti) cannot also be unlimited; the unlimited is
already covered by His spiritual energy. You cannot have two unlimiteds.

The material universes-ekapad vibhuti- are like a cloud in the unlimited spiritual sky.
The cloud is big from our perspective, but it is a specific area, a limited region. If no souls are added to the limited amount of nitya-baddhas, then there will be no more jivas there, or there are already no more jivas in the material world.


you wrote: "God is fair because He is giving each jiva what he wants.":

reply: So how is it that one jiva gets into durga (anadir) and the other jiva is a nitya-mukta?
In other words: one jiva must suffer and the other can enjoy loving devotional service uninterruptedly.


You wrote: "subtle (dormant, new) living entities":

reply: These are part of the nitya baddhas (anadir bound) or are they not bound, but eternally indolent?
Is that brahmajyoti or is there some unlimited area of sleepers?

Then why He keeps these eternally numb and then wakes them up. Why not have them awakened since eternity?

"...he is devoid of knowledge about Him and this deficiency has no beginning.":

If there is no beginning, then there was not somewhere a choice for this. It is eternally so ordained. But there must have been someone ordaining, creating it like that. How is this?

you wrote: the Lord's srsti-lila: (where you explain the question why we are in this world nitya baddha made to suffer and some are eternally in the spiritual world)
"He is cruel to Himself only"

reply: In other words, to have the ultimate in enjoyment or to fully enjoy unlimitedly, He must have the lila of being a masochist? Eko bahu syam- He expanded Himself to also suffer. Where is that in Sanskrit? Do you have a verse to substantiate this?

you wrote: "Was there a time when God sent the soul into the material world?":

reply: Again: no one did it, there was no cause,it didn't happen?

your servant: Avadhuta Raya das

Because we are so conditioned to think in limits and numbers, beginning, end, cause, effect, minus and plus, this topic is inconceivable to us. There is no real suffering for the soul - is is only the mind and the body that 'suffers', but we are cit kana, pure spirit, that cannot be burned, drowned etc. Thus there is no cruelty committed. See Bhagavad Gita 2.11-20. The soul is unborn and immortal. There was never any choice, for there was no beginning. That is what all the shastras and acaryas say. If we cannot grasp it with our tiny brains we must just accept it with faith in shastra and sadhu.

And why? Should any potency of Hari be limited?



if eka-paada vibhuti is limited, then why should tri-paada vibhuti be unlimited. Conversely if tri-paada vibhuti is unlimited, why should eka-paada vibhuti be limited. Three times limited does not make something unlimited or dividing infinity by three does not produce limited products.



You cannot find this initial "gets into". That is the point. There is no reason behind this scheme of things. No one is responsible. However in maayaa, a jiiva, very very very very rarely wants to get out of it, and in prema, it is impossible for a mukta to want to get out of it.



The verse could well mean "currently" indolent, but how was it in the past, God only knows.



There was no ordaining by anybody. It just is. Thats it.

Kishalaya

Although the soul is pure spirit (knowledge), it is still the knower. So it does experience suffering in maayaa.

Kishalaya

How so? This is the problem in your idea, that something beginningless still has a beginning.



Well, would you disagree that the souls are infinitesimal parts of the Lord? Are they altogether a different category of existence, is there something separate from Hari?

It is very difficult to approach the topic based mainly on mundane logic.

Dear Prabhu's
Dandavat pramanas. All glories to Sri guru and Gauranga.
I read all the previous e-mails on this issue. I have some questions and comments which I hope you will graciously answer.

Questions & Comments:

On "nitya-mukta and nitya-baddhah" :
We know that eventually a soul will get liberated,i.o.w nitya-mukta means no beginning and no end, whereas nitya-baddhah means no beginning, but with an end. So "nitya" has various meanings and it doesn't only mean "eternal".

On "the Upanisads say:He created the world for His play" and
"in the Padma Purana it is said:the God of Gods has created this worldly illusion for His play":
Which point are you trying to make with these quotes?

On "subtle (dormant,new) living entities":
Where do they come from?

On "Vishnu dharmottara Purana (1.81.12),(1.81.13):the Lord ,Who has inconceivable potency,creates another jiva":
But the soul is eternal!

On "The word dvesa in Bhagavad-Gita 7,27 does not mean "envy of Krishna", for you cannot be envious of someone you don't know":
Why didn't I get the chance to know Him?Have I been thrown in the mud ,the material world of the durga prison here,for no reason?In this world no one is in jail without reason.

On "no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered":
How is it possible that the jiva is whimsically put in the pain of samsara?

On "so conditioned to think in limits and numbers, this topic is inconceivable to us":
In the spiritual world there are also forms and numbers ,beginning and end and cause and effect."Inconceivable" is not the same as "unintelligible" or "unreasonable".Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes that there is divja tarka (transcendental logic).How can I believe a vada which must be believed and cannot be made acceptable?

On "tiny brains":
Can you please give me a little insight? What will I grasp with transcendental logic when I come to the transcendental platform?

On "eka-pada vibhuti":
You are taking eka and tripada vibhuti too literal.The meaning of vibhuti is "His glories",tripada is "Goloka,Vaikuntha and brahmayjoti" and ekapada is "mahat-tattva".These terms do not describe quantities, but aspects of glories. The material energy is some cloud in some corner of the spiritual sky;it is a limited area in the unlimited spiritual sky.

On "There was no ordaining by anybody.It just 'is'.That's it":
Here is your philosophy:
I suffer for no reason.
Nitya-muktas are enjoying for no reason.
This world is an anvil to make the jivas suffer.
The Creator is a masochist.He wants to suffer; that is one of His goals in life.

Such a reasonable philosophy!
I'm afraid it is close to mayavada:
"Ananda maya bhyasat" suffers as jivas in this world because this is His "lila".

By the way, you didn't give me Sanskrit sastra to prove that God is a masochist.

On "Vishnu or anyone else did not put the jivas in illusion.They are in illusion 'anadi'.Try to understand 'anadi'.It is very important.":
This sounds like the demoniac philosophy Lord Krishna describes in Bhagavad-Gita, chapter 16:
asatyam apratistham te
jagad ahur anisvaram

Somebody must have put the jivas in illusion,or were they put there by chance? Nothing happens without cause or reason, without intelligence or controller.

On "Well, would you disagree that the souls are infinitesimal parts of the Lord? Are they altogether a different category of existence,is there something separate from Hari?":

Aren't we acintya-bhedabheda-tattva vadis?

If you don't like the conclusion of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition which is accepted everywhere outside one small group of innovative theologians, what can I do about it... We're just roaming about in a circle over the same issues, which you try to approach with logic and without scripture. Scripture is the foundation, logic is an assisting tool which is limited in its scope.



You speak of graciously answering them, while at the same time you go to the point of practically labeling the orthodox sampradayika conclusion as mayavada. "The bondage is beginningless", this is what you will hear from everyone outside the Gaudiya Matha in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya, and within the Gaudiya Matha there are varying (and confusing) interpretations of the issue. May I ask whether the opinions of any scholars outside the Sarasvata tradition are worth the time of thought for you?



Nitya may have multiple meanings, but we are speaking of anadi, beginningless. The usage of the term in relation with the bondage of the soul has been confirmed as beginningless in the Vedanta Sutra and the tikas, as you may have noted in the previous posts in this thread and the other one I referred you to.



Caitanya Caritamrita (3.3.79) does not specify their origin, the term "sUkSma-jIva" is found in there. Haridas says to Mahaprabhu, "sUkSma-jIve punaH karme udbuddha karibA", "You cause the sUkSma-jIvas to again awaken for karma." We may understand from this that there is a class of jIvas which are dormant, covered in deep ignorance, in a state of susupti (deep sleep). They again awaken to act.

Now, to try to track down the history of the sUkSma-jIvas to a particular beginning is futile and meaningless, since the existence of the jIvas is beginningless. We may understand that a jIva becomes covered over by the deep darkness of ignorance as a consequence of lethargy and nihilism, desiring the cessation of existence.



It would be very helpful if you developed the habit of always citing the original Sanskrit text when you refer to it, that would save us the trouble of browsing through pages of content to find what you're looking for. Some of the things you referred to I couldn't find with a simple search and thus skipped over them. Use the "quote" feature please, cite the exact text you comment on.

The original quote reads as follows:



Perhaps the word "create" is not a very literal translation, but the idea conveyed is the same as you read in the words of Haridas, that the Lord "activates" another dormant soul to fill in the space of the one who has been liberated.



This is the same old problem with beginninglessness you are faced with one post after the other. There was never a time when you were thrown anywhere, therefore there was no reason for that either. Try to understand the concept of beginninglessness. It means there was never a time when something happened for the jiva for the first time, because the jivas are eternal.



Again, never put, always been, hence no reason why he was put here.



Please don't get sarcastic, it does not serve the purpose of the discussion. Respect the views of people who are their level best presenting the sampradayika siddhanta to you.

The issue with God being a masochist is a creation of your imagination. If that's your conclusion, fine. Don't put words in the mouths of others. Nobody here has said that.



Do you know enough Sanskrit to figure out what the words in the verse you cited mean? Does any one of them mean "the bondage is beginningless"?

Asatya -- No, for everything exists and is reality.
Apratistha -- No, for the Lord is the basis of everything.

Please try to examine what you quote, especially when you suggest that someone's views be classified among the opinions of the asuras. It is not befitting to suggest that people are demons just because you can't handle the philosophical conclusions they present.

NOTE: Sorry the previous message was a "slip of the cursor."


Dear Vaisnavas. Dandavat pranams.
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.

QUOTE
you don't like the conclusion of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition...Scripture
is the foundation, logic is an assisting tool.

you can say:"belief sastra", but there will be various interpretations
(tarko pratistha �rutayo vibhinn€
n€s€v ��ir yasya mataˆ na bhinnam
tarko ’prati�˜haƒ �rutayo vibhinn€
tarko ’prati�˜haƒ �rutayo vibhinn€
“Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose
opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply
by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right
path by which religious principles are understood” (Mah€bh€rata, Vana-parva
313.117).) Therefore always go to reason
(C.C.:siddh€nta baliy€ citte n€ kara alasa
ih€ ha-ite k��Še l€ge sud��ha m€nasa
siddh€nta baliy€ citte n€ kara alasa
siddh€nta—conclusion; baliy€—considering; citte—in the mind; n€ kara—do not
be; alasa—lazy; ih€—this; ha-ite—from; k��Še—in Lord K��Ša; l€ge—becomes
fixed; su-d��ha—very firm; m€nasa—the mind.)
A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such [scriptural]
conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions
strengthen the mind. Thus one’s mind becomes attached to ®r… K��Ša.

There should be a comprehensible, intelligible system. God, the supreme
brain, made the order. There must be a concept
which can be known. But your conclusion is that there is no way of getting
insight in the system.

QUOTE
the bondage is beginningless.

Why not "start off" with bliss? V.S. 1.1.10: "As fire sparks blissfully
dance,some sparks fall out." As a king starts a kingdom after a coup d'etat;
"make" everyone good. Suppose you are God and alone; then you can
create free loving souls,who get a chance and a choice to participate. Only
after they make a voluntary choice not to participate,you part with them and
send them into samsara. Some don't wish to join the fun; they can go to
jail. But they should get a choice and a chance to see both;the palace life
should also be shown to the jiva.

Quote
They again awaken to act.

So does this mean that they were once awake?

Quote
A jiva becomes covered over by the deep darkness of ignorance as
a consequence of lethargy and nihilism, desiring the cessation
of existence.

Who covers the jiva over?

Where do lethargy and nihilism come from?

Why does the jiva desire the cessation of existence?
Does he choose for that?

Quote
the Lord activates another dormant soul to fill in the space
of the one who has been liberated.

Why is the dormant soul kept numb for so long? This is suffering compared
to the bliss he gets later, joining Krishna's lila.
Why not bring him sooner to lila?
Why not have them all start in bliss, and then, if they like,
they can go to maya?
Why let them beginningless be in pain, then later on, if they like,
they can go to Vaikuntha?
Why are they not beginningless in joy, and then, if they are fools,
let them go for pain? Some may choose for pain; they are a part and parcel
and spark of His acintya

Quote
the Lord "activates" another dormant soul to fill in the space
of the one who has been liberated.

1)If he does not get to see or experience Krishna "in the beginning", he has
no fair choice. So he can fall from perfection. "Tatastha-loka no fall vada"
from hazy consciousness means not getting a free choice: Krishna is
responsible for your choice. If you say that in the beginning the soul was
placed at the border to choose, the following situation develops: the soul
sees Krishna-lila and maya, and when he chooses for maya, it's the same
concept as fall-vada, because he can also fall later from the spiritual
world.
2)Why is the soul kept numb for so long? This is suffering compared to the
bliss he will get later when he joins Krishna's lila. Why is not he brought
to the Lord's lila sooner?
Why not have all souls "start" in bliss, and then if they like, they can go
to maya?
Why let them be in pain without beginning, and let them go to Vaikuntha only
later on (if they want to)?
Why aren't they put in joy without beginning, and then, if they are fools,
let them go for pain? Some may choose for pain; they are parts and parcels,
sparks, of His acintya quality and may do something acintya.

Quote
The issue with God being a masochist is a creation of your imagination.

According to the Webster dictionary, masochist means: 'a tendency to take
pleasure in physical or mental suffering inflicted on one by oneself,
selfpunishment, taste for suffering

You said that God started srsti-lila to experience suffering.

Quote
...especially when you suggest that someone's views be classified among the
opinions of the asuras.

My mainpoint was "jagad ahur anisvaram":

-Things just happen or just are.
-Jivas are in samsara for no reason.
-There is no controller.

That is asura vada.
You quote: "The Lord is the basis of everything". But He is not the basis of
bondage. If He is,why did He impose it on the anadir nitya baddhas or did
they bring it upon themselves?
I did not wish to imply that you are an asura.
Rather,my point is that your no fall-vada is tinged with asura-vada:
-there is no reason for the bondage of the jiva here;
-he is just always in pain
It is the ( extension part of) Krsna who liked to cause pain to Himself.

the real reason for the material world is given in a lecture of Abhay Caran Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuoada on SB 1.2.9
"Why you take the risk of family? For enjoyment. I am alone. I can remain happy why you take the wife. I know if I marry there will be childern , so many responsibilities. Why you accept. For happiness...very rich man's son, he wants to become happy without his father goes out of home but doesn't become happy agaihn he comes back home."

"Why not "start off" with bliss? V.S. 1.1.10: "As fire sparks blissfully
dance,some sparks fall out."

Does VS mean Vedanta Sutra? Anyone has the sanskrit text of this sutra?
On the web I could find this English translation:
"10. On account of (the individual soul) going to the Self."

gati-samanyAt || vedAnta-sUtra 1-1-10 ||

The commentary of Baladeva discusses the uniformity of brahman, how in the ultimate there is only one brahman and no other.

This, again, serves to point out how the approach of favoring logic over shastra and consequently neglecting the proper study of shastra leads one astray.

Aside incorrect references, this tendency is also reflected as the presentation of clueless translations on account of not being able to examine the original texts.

The "tarko 'pratiSThaH" is not exactly the verse of choice if one desires to argue in favor of logic because the scriptural interpretations may vary! You say, "Therefore always go to reason". However, this is exactly the opposite of the verse you cite.

tarko 'pratiSThaH -- Reasoning is fluctiating. (It never settles to a single conclusion when used independently.)

nAsav RSir yasya mataM na bhinnam -- He is not a sage whose opinion is not different. (This demonstrates how independent reasoning leads to infinite differing conclusions.)

zrutayo vibhinnA -- The srutis disunited. (As there is karma-kanda and so forth mixed in.)

Therefore, one must study the scripture along with the commentaries of the mahajanas. The commentaries of the Gaudiya mahajanas such as Jiva, Visvanatha and Baladeva, clearly point to a single conclusion in regards to the origin of the Jiva, and this conclusion is widely accepted in the sampradaya.

Have you studied the Tattva-sandarbha of Jiva Gosvami? If not, go ahead and read it thoroughly, you'll get a good grasp of the epistemic theory of the Gaudiya tradition. If yes, time to refresh your memory and read it again. Before settling down to a common epistemic basis and agreeing on the premises, extensive dialogues and arguments on siddhanta are more or less fruitless.

Dear Vaisnavas. Dandavat pranam.

Here are some quotes from Jiva Gosvami where the Jiva comes from.
If you like, I have much more for your pleasure.

4.5.1 SRI BHAGAVAT-SANDARBHA

4.5.1.1 No one falls from Vaikuntha?

How are we to understand the many statements in Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha that say in various ways “no one falls from Vaikuntha”? I suggest that it is important to understand the context in which these statements were made. Indeed, in text 12 of Anuccheda 177 of Sri Krsna-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami himself says that “the Vedic literatures must be understood according to their context.”
In text 7 of Anuccheda 63 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, preceding almost all of the statements about no one falling from Vaikuntha, Jiva Goswami gives the context for them:

At this point someone may object: “Is it not so that in Svargaloka or any other planet both the objects of enjoyment and the enjoyers of those objects will eventually be destroyed. Is this not true also for the devotees and their object of enjoyment?”

This shows that when Jiva Goswami was introducing statements about Vaikuntha, he was doing it to counteract this specific objection. In any other planet “the objects of enjoyment and the enjoyers of those objects will eventually be destroyed.” It must happen. They must be destroyed. But this is not true in Vaikuntha. There is never any inherent reason for the situation of eternal enjoyment to change. The only reason is the causeless misuse of independence by the soul.
So in the quotes in this section of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami is answering the objection given above. The nature of Vaikuntha is eternal. The residents of Vaikuntha are eternal. But none of this rules out the possibility of a soul misusing its inherent spiritual quality of free will. When this happens, the natural opulences of the soul are covered but not destroyed. In addition, Srila Prabhupada has said that in reality no one “falls” from Vaikuntha. Krsna simply creates a situation where we think we are fallen. It is like a person lying on his bed and dreaming he is somewhere else. Actually he never leaves his bed. Given all these considerations, it is not necessary to propose that the many statements by Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati that we were originally with Krsna in the spiritual world are simply “preaching strategies” that do not reflect the actual truth.
In short, the quotes given by Jiva Goswami about Vaikuntha simply affirm the eternal spiritual nature of the Vaikuntha planets and the eternal spiritual nature of the residents who remain there absorbed in Krsna’s service. These qualities distinguish Vaikuntha from the heavenly planets, where the objects of enjoyment and the enjoyers will eventually be destroyed. The heavenly planets are material and thus temporary, and the bodies of the demigods are also material and thus temporary. In the course of time, the heavenly planets and bodies of the demigods are destroyed. But the Vaikuntha planets are never destroyed, and the spiritual bodies of the residents of Vaikuntha are never destroyed (although they may be temporarily covered if the residents misuse their independence). In this section of the Bhagavat-sandarbha Jiva Goswami is not, however, directly addressing the nature of the marginal potency and its ability to misuse its spiritual quality of free will. But, as we shall see, this topic does come up in other sections of the Sandarbhas, and there we hear from Jiva Goswami what we have heard so many times from Srila Prabhupada. We were originally with Krsna in His abode, but we have misused our independence. Therefore we find ourselves in the material world, deprived of our original spiritual opulences. But by Krsna consciousness we can go back home, back to Godhead.


4.5.1.2 “Regaining your natural position”

In text 5 of Anuccheda 4 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami cites Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.11.30. In this text, Manu says to Dhruva Maharaja:

“Regaining your natural position and rendering service unto the Supreme Lord (Bhagavan), who is the all-powerful reservoir of all pleasure and who lives in all living entities, you will very soon forget the illusory understanding of ‘I’ and ‘mine.’”

This translation is Srila Prabhupada’s, and he directly refers to the soul regaining its natural position of rendering service to the Lord. Others might wish to translate this text differently, but I will prefer to stick with Srila Prabhupada’s translation, and I assume that Jiva Goswami would find no fault in it.


4.5.1.3 “The pure spirit souls,
who are His marginal potencies”

In text 1 of Anuccheda 16 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami cites Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.3.37. The last line of this text is:

brahmaiva bhati sad asac ca tayoh param yat

The translation give by Hridayananda Goswami and Gopiparanadhana Prabhu is:

“Brahman, which is the source of all subtle and gross manifestations, is simultaneously transcendental to them, being absolute.”

In text 2 of Anuccheda 16, Jiva Goswami gives this further explanation of the word param in the above quoted Bhagavatam text:

“param” svarupa-vaibhavam sri-vaikuntha-rupam tatasthah-vaibhavam suddha-jiva rupa ca, anyatha tat-tad-bhavasiddhih.

Here Jiva Goswami says that param means “the Lord’s personal internal potency, which is the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha, and the pure spirit souls, who are His marginal potencies.” He adds, “Any conception that contradicts this is in error.” The marginal potency is described as being param and composed of suddha-jivas, or pure spirit souls. This is quite in line with Srila Prabhupada’s many statements that we are originally Krsna conscious beings, eternal servants of Krsna.
In text 3 of Anuccheda 16 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami gives a further explanation of the words tayoh param in the Bhagavatam text cited above. Jiva Goswami interprets this text as an explanation of the Lord’s many potencies. After describing some of the material potencies, Jiva Goswami says:

These sat and asat potencies are material in nature. Above them (tayoh param) is the supreme goal of life, the spiritual Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as Bhagavan and who is accompanied by His potencies. Also above them is the spiritual living entity, who is known as jiva (suddha-jiva-akhyam), and who, because He follows the Lord (tat-anugatattvat), is pure.

So according to these explanations of Jiva Goswami, the tatastha-sakti (marginal potency) is one of the superior spiritual potencies of the Lord, and is of the same nature as Vaikuntha itself. It is composed of pure jivas who naturally follow the Lord. This is what we have always heard from Srila Prabhupada, namely that we are all originally Krsna conscious beings. In text 19 of Anuccheda 16, the jivas are also described as suddha, or pure spiritual beings, whereas the inhabitants of the brahmajyoti are elsewhere described as avisuddha-buddhayah, having impure intelligence (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.32).
In text 4 of Anuccheda 16 of Sri-Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami goes on to explain, “The false ego covers the awareness of the pure individual soul (jivam), which is one of the Lord’s spiritual potencies.”


4.5.1.4 “The individual soul becomes bereft
of his natural spiritual opulences”

In text 1 of Anuccheda 25 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami cites Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.87.38. Here follows an excerpt from the translation to this text given by Srila Prabhupada in Krsna: The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in the chapter on the prayers of the personified Vedas.

“When there is cosmic manifestation, the jivatma, or the individual soul, appears in the creation in different forms, according to his previous fruitive activities, and due to his long forgetfulness of real existence, he identifies himself with a particular form awarded to him by the laws of material nature....While he is enwrapped in such ignorance, his natural opulences, although existing in minute quantity, become almost extinct.”

The Sanskrit for this part of the text is:

sa yad ajaya tv ajam anusayita gunams ca jusan
bhajati svarupatam tad anu mrtyum apeta-bhagah

In text 2 of Anuccheda 25, Jiva Goswami cites Sridhara Swami’s commentary on this text. Sridhara Swami says:

In this verse the word sah means “the individual spirit soul.” Yat means “because.” ajaya means “by the material energy maya,” ajam means “ignorance,” anusayita means “embraces,” gunams ca means “the material body and senses,” jusan means “serving, or considering the material body as the self,” svarupatam jusan apeta-bhagah means “absorbed in the material energy, the individual soul becomes bereft of his natural spiritual opulences, such as bliss and knowledge,” mrtyum means “the material realm of birth and death,” [and] bhajati means “attains.”

But the position of the Lord is different. The last part of Bhagavatam text 10.87.38 is:

“The distinction between You and the conditioned soul is that You maintain Your natural opulences, known as sad-aisvarya, asta-siddhi, and asta-guna.”

So the indication from Jiva Goswami, Sridhara Swami, Srila Prabhupada, and the Bhagavatam (which Jiva Goswami calls the highest evidence) is that the jiva in its original position was actively displaying its spiritual opulences. In the brahmajyoti, there is no display of such opulences, since the brahmajyoti is an impersonal state devoid of personal opulences. Sridhara Swami calls these opulences ananda-adi—bliss and others. This indicates variety. So what happens? Because of forgetfulness of his original position, the jiva is covered by the material energy. The distinction between the Lord and the living entity is that the conditioned living entity cannot maintain his spiritual opulences in the material world whereas the Lord can. All of this is perfectly in line with what we have repeatedly heard from Srila Prabhupada, namely that we are originally Krsna conscious living beings but due to forgetfulness our real spiritual nature has been covered. But we can go back to our original position in the spiritual world.


4.5.1.5 “One’s own home,
where the Supreme Personality of Godhead lives”

That a spiritual planet in Vaikuntha is our original home is made clear in Anuccheda 71 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha. In text 1 of Anuccheda 71, Jiva Goswami cites Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.29.48, wherein Narada Muni says:

“Those who are less intelligent accept the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies as all in all. They do not know that the purpose of the Vedas is to understand one’s own home, where the Supreme Personality of Godhead lives. Not being interested in their real homes, they are illusioned and search after other homes.”

The translation is by Srila Prabhupada. The Sanskrit is:

svam lokam na vidus te vai
yatra devo janardanah
ahur dhumra-dhiyo vedam
sakarmakam atad-vidah

In text 2 of Anuccheda 71 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha Jiva Goswami says:

In this verse Narada Muni says, “Those who are less intelligent (dhumra-dhiyah) accept (ahuh) the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies (veda sa-karmakam) as all in all. They know of Svargaloka and the other planets in the material universe, but they do not know that the purpose of the Vedas is to understand one’s own home (svam lokam) where (yatra) the Supreme Personality of Godhead (janardanah) lives.”


4.5.1.6 “The fault of ignorance,
which makes the living entity forget
the Supreme Personality of Godhead”

In text 6 of Anuccheda 100 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami cites Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.87.14, which is one of the prayers of the personified Vedas.

jaya jaya jahy ajam ajita dosa-grbhita-gunam
tvam asi yad atmana samavaruddha-samasta-bhagah
aga-jagad-okasam akhila-sakty-avabodhaka te
kvacid ajayatmana ca carato ‘nucaren nigamah

The translation given by Srila Prabhupada in Krsna: The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in the chapter “Prayers by the Personified Vedas,” is (in part):
“All the living entities, being Your parts and parcels, are naturally joyful, eternal, and full of knowledge, but due to their own faults they imitate You by trying to become the supreme enjoyer. Thus they disobey Your supremacy and become offenders. And because of their offenses, Your material energy has taken charge of them. Thus their transcendental qualities of joyfulness, bliss, and wisdom have been covered by the clouds of the three material qualities.”

In text 12 of Anuccheda 100 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami comments on this text of the Bhagavatam. The most relevant part is his discussion of the words dosa-grbhita-guna. Jiva Goswami says:

Dosa here is the fault of ignorance, which makes the living entity forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead [atma-vismrti].

Forgetting implies that the knowledge of the Supreme Lord was once there. This is what we have always heard from Srila Prabhupada, namely that we were once with Krsna but we have simply forgotten Him. By Krsna consciousness, we can regain our original relationship with Krsna.


4.5.1.7 “The material ignorance potency
makes the conditioned souls in the material world
forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead”

In text 6 of Anuccheda 103 of Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, Jiva Goswami discusses the potencies of the Supreme Lord, as they are listed in Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.39.55. Jiva Goswami says:

The pastime potency is divided into knowledge and ignorance potencies. The ignorance potency, which makes one forget the Supreme Lord’s powers and opulences, brought the bliss of ecstatic love to Krsna’s mother (Yasoda). In the same way, it also bewildered the gopis, as is described in the Gopala-tapani Upanisad. This will be described in detail at the proper time. The material ignorance potency makes the conditioned souls in the material world forget the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It covers their true knowledge.

The Sanskrit used by Jiva Goswami for the last part of this statement is:

sah bhedah samsarinam sva-svarupa-vismrty-adi-hetur avaranatmaka-vrtti-visesa.

The word vismrti, is a clear reference to forgetfulness, and forgetfulness means that there is some original knowledge that has been forgotten. It is also said that the ignorance potency covers the true knowledge of the soul. This is what we have always heard from Srila Prabhupada. We were originally Krsna conscious, but we have forgotten this. It is simply a question of remembering our original condition.

Dear Avadhuta,

Are you using as your sources, only books and commentaries related to Jiva issue, available from Iskcon?

It is copied and pasted from Drutakarma das's Origin of the Jiva, which was refuted by Satyanarayan Das in his book From Vaikuntha not even the leaves fall.

First of all, Avadhuta, give credit to your sources. Second of all, I wonder if you have any capacity for examining the translations you give against the original Sanskrit you provide, and whether you have checked the contexts of the statements quoted.

I have browsed through the entire document of Drutakarma, and the translations indeed leave much to be desired. Moreover, many of the quotes he presents in themselves prove nothing, though his wishful interpretations may make it appear as if they did for the less critical reader.

Trust me, I've read OOPS (Our Original Position) and the other ISKCON position papers umpteen times. There is nothing new they might contribute aside a myriad of speculations and hopeful interpretations, inasmuch as the writings of Jiva Gosvami are concerned.

However, let's glance at the quotes from Jiva which seem to directly state that someone may fall from Vaikuntha.


Here is the original Sanskrit text for Bhagavata 4.11.30:

tvaM pratyag-Atmani tadA bhagavaty ananta
Ananda-mAtra upapanna-samasta-zaktau |
bhaktiM vidhAya paramAM zanakair avidyA-
granthiM vibhetsyasi mamAham iti prarUDham ||

Here is the BBT word-for-word translation.

tvam - you; pratyak-Atmani - unto the Supersoul; tadA - at that time; bhagavati - unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anante - who is unlimited; Ananda-mAtre - the reservoir of all pleasure; upapanna - possessed of; samasta - all; zaktau - potencies; bhaktim - devotional service; vidhAya - by rendering; paramAm - supreme; zanakaiH - very soon; avidyA - of illusion; granthim - the knot; vibhetsyasi - you will undo; mama - my; aham - I; iti - thus; prarUDham - firmly fixed.

Where are the words "regaining" and "natural position" in the verse? Nowhere. Indeed, as Drutakarma points out, "Others might wish to translate this text differently...". Quite probably so. Anyone who would like to present a precise translation instead of an interpretation of the original text would have to translate it differently.



Here, again, we see how the author stretches the original verse to something it never intended to say. Jiva simply states that the tatastha-manifestation appears as suddha-jivas. It does not speak a word about anyone's being originally anything. See, Jiva does not say that tatastha manifests mukta-jivas and baddha-jivas. Essentially the jiva is eternally pure, as it can never be mixed with matter, as it consists of spirit, which is a category different from matter.

The author then takes similar statements from Jiva and stretches them along the same lines, arguing over their "original" status which is nowhere implied in the text.



There is no Sanskrit given for many of these references. If you wish to make an argument out of them, do please your homework and dig up the original texts. You can find the entire Sat-sandarbha in Sanskrit for download at www.granthamandira.org . References without Sanskrit are useless. It is the work of the one who presents the argument to present the original text along with the translations. None of us has the time or the patience to start digging them all up just to see how the translation was once again a wild interpretation not true to the original. If you present the original text along with the translation, we can point it out without having to take all that trouble.

Henceforth I will not be paying attention to translations without Sanskrit, so please spare yourself from the trouble of posting them. I do not have the time to dig them all up.



The outcome is again an extension of the author's imaginative argumentation. "Not remembering" does not mean one once remembered, any more than saying "not walking" of a young baby indicates that the baby once walked but does not presently walk.

If you wish to seriously examine the statements of Jiva Gosvami, I suggest you present them one by one with the original Sanskrit included, and preferably excluding all far-fetched interpretations which are not evident from the original text.

Quote Avadhuta "Vishnu or anyone else did not put the jivas in illusion.They are in illusion 'anadi'.Try to understand 'anadi'. It is very important.":
This sounds like the demoniac philosophy Lord Krishna describes in Bhagavad-Gita, chapter 16:

asatyam apratistham te
jagad ahur anisvaram

Somebody must have put the jivas in illusion,or were they put there by chance? Nothing happens without cause or reason, without intelligence or controller." [unquote]

Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata 3.7.10 — tatra bhagavatah prstha sthitaya anadyavidyaya tamah svarupaya anadi vaimukhya rupa bhagavat prstha-sthanam jivanam jnanam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvam karanam napi prayojanam kim apy asti "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non devotees. Their non devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered."


Not very friendly to call Srila Visvanatha Cakravartipada a demon, huh?
Krishna meant in this Gita verse: asatyam = the atheist thinks this world is unreal, and apratishtam = there is no basis for it (other than sense pleasures). Why? jagad ahur anisvara = they say there is no God.
This obviously refers to atheists, and not to Shukadeva and Vyasa, who have stated repeatedly in the Bhagavata, and Vyasa also in the Vedanta Sutra, that there is no beginning and also no reason to the jiva's conditioning. The commentators Jiva and Visvanatha, who repeated the anadi teachings in their tikas of the Bhagavata and the Gita, can also not be considered asuras.
vyasa prasadacchruta (B Gita 18.75) - Sanjay says he heard the Gita, where this 'asatyam apratishtam' asura-verse appears, by the grace of Vyasa, who also dictated the Bhagavata, where all the anadi verses appear, to Ganesh. Would Vyasa call himself and his son Suka an asura in the Gita, for teaching this in the Bhagavata?

So clearly Visvanatha puts it.

If you want to make that fancy quote box, you can invoke it as follows:

AHAH

Advaita das wrote: ”Somebody must have put the jivas in illusion,or were they put there by chance? Nothing happens without cause or reason, without intelligence or controller." [unquote]

Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti's commentary on Srimad Bhagavata 3.7.10 — tatra bhagavatah prstha sthitaya anadyavidyaya tamah svarupaya anadi vaimukhya rupa bhagavat prstha-sthanam jivanam jnanam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvam karanam napi prayojanam kim apy asti "Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord's back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord's back and are non devotees. Their non devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered."


Answer: Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura is not an asura. Deficient or insufficient understanding of a bhasya is unholy, asuric.
“Sounds like” means it bears some similarities.
When I hear “I don’t know, there is no purpose, don’t try to understand, you can’t understand, it is not to be understood” I shudder.
I abhor that.These are some tenants of western theology “surrender to something you must believe (the book, bible) which has to be blindly accepted” I have rejected this in my puberty and university years. I had hoped to get knowledge in the Veda. Veda = knowledge.
I try to understand your conceptions.Again:
Why some souls are nitya muktas and some nitya baddhas.
Was it my choice or Krishna did this to me.
Why I am not in the category of nitya-mukta
Why the category of nitya baddha’s is there at all; a class of sufferers.

anadi = beginningless
avidya = ignorance
karanam = reason
prayojana = need, purpose
na = not
api = even
kim api = at all
asti = there is
Is there any fault or deficiency in this bhasya? Is it not consistent with the Bhagavata?



Yes Veda means knowledge. Each person has to grow out of puberty. An adult will understand he has to accept things as they are. You may like to rebel against the rising of the sun, but will that stop the sun from rising? That is utterly foolish and childish. Nobody asks you for your opinion when it comes to the absolute reality. Accept or don't accept. Accept and find peace. Do not accept and suffer confusion. Rely on your limited senses and brains and suffer eternal confusion. This is the only alternative.



We are spinning around in perpetual circles. It is the way it is. To make it conceivable to you - Krishna wanted it like that, basta.



Neither. It is just like that. no prayojana, no adi, no karana. The acaryas have spoken.



It is just like that. Whether you like it or not will not help you one iota.



There is no reason, this is beyond all 'why's and 'because's. There is no karana, no adi and no prayojana (Visvanatha Cakravarti)

Hare Krishna All

What does it matter how we got here, go on speculating forever, we are Here Now, make the best and chant the holy names of the Lord.

You can say my 2 cents, ( i From THE uk)