Gaudiya Discussions Archive » CONTEMPORARY ISSUES

Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the modern world. Dealing with the varieties of challenges we face as practicing Gaudiyas amidst Western culture.

Presenting the Raganuga Tradition - in the Western World

Raga - Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:26:12 +0530

We decided to open a new thread for this very important topic:

QUOTE(Mina)

What we need to do here is brainstorm to come up with some good ideas of how to present the raganuga tradition accurately to the Western world (the Indians are already going to be able to relate to it inherently) and without alienating them.

So, feel free to contribute.

Raga - Thu, 02 May 2002 14:23:23 +0530

The following was posted by Jagat @ IndiaDivine. Fits this thread more than well.

QUOTE

The protectors of the divine symbols are usually those who have an other-worldly approach to them, but they often misunderstand their relation to the rest of their community, thinking that everyone must be a martyr to the cause like them. Most people just want to "have life and have it more fully."

So the question is, "Does being a manjari have any significance in the here and now?"

OR, if the manjari identity is only for the devotional elite, then what meanings is this elite preserving for those who are in the world?

And, if even the symbols that this elite is preserving, namely the erotic pastimes of Radha and Krishna, are so alien to the interests of "this world" that they must be dissimulated and replaced by other, simpler, karma-oriented symbols--Krishna on the chariot with Arjuna telling him to do his duty, Nrisingha destroying Hiranyakashipu, assuring the protection of the pious, or Rama, the maryada purushottam--then what exactly what was this whole Radha-Krishna madness all about in the 16th century anyway?

Now, comments?

Mina - Fri, 03 May 2002 20:34:06 +0530

This could be a very opportune time to attract both Christians and Muslims. In the case of the former, the scandals rocking the Catholic Church could cause many to search for religion elsewhere. In the case of the latter, hard line fundamentalists and widespread jihad could drive moderates out of the faith.

Since child abuse scandals have recently plagued a certain Gaudiya offshoot institution (the name of which shall not be mentioned), the key to success is to distance ourselves from that organization as far as possible in the minds of the general public. That requires some form of education about the differences between the two communities (ours and the orange robed crowd). Then the selling point is our freedom from scandals and the reasons. Let's face it, despite our efforts to remain non-sectarian and respectful of other faiths, there is competition between religious factions in the real world. That is just a fact of life. As long as people equate followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu with collectors of money in airports, we are at a distinct disadvantage and not very competitive.

An educational campaign could involve getting articles published in various periodicals that have good circulation. Some historical background on the rAgAnugA tradition and a focus on how it is currently catching on outside of India could be the content. A one hour documentary for television would be even more effective, but would require securing a grant or three from charitable foundations.

A concert tour of Europe and North America by some kirtaniyas from Braj and/or West Bengal would be effective, however the audience would not be nearly as large as those that read magazines and watch TV, and would have to be limited to smaller venues. pUjA and distribution of prasAda could be part of the show.

There are already tour companies operating extensively in India. We could sell some of them on the idea of offering tourists the Braj Mandal experience. As far as I know, they do not currently go there, but rather to the major tourist attractions elsewhere. This could be a meditation and pilgrimage package (one day outings) that they could piggyback onto their other tour packages.

So, people, we have our work cut out for us. Get off your Asanas and start pounding the pavement (just messing with you [-oo-] ).

Raga - Fri, 03 May 2002 21:30:45 +0530

QUOTE

An educational campaign could involve getting articles published in various periodicals that have good circulation. Some historical background on the rAgAnugA tradition and a focus on how it is currently catching on outside of India could be the content. A one hour documentary for television would be even more effective, but would require securing a grant or three from charitable foundations.

I am in the process of compiling a website at www.gaudiya.com, which will be an overview of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition in its classical form. It will also offer an overview of the recent history of the tradition along with its prominent reforms, as well as a broader history of the traditional parivars.

Any well compiled resource material is most welcome. Please send to info@gaudiya.com .

QUOTE

I suggest we start with a monthly e-zine. It is much more convenient to publish, given that the audience is spread all over the world, and given the economical resources required for publishing hard copies. Now, we need contributors.

QUOTE

In the case of the former, the scandals rocking the Catholic Church could cause many to search for religion elsewhere.

Shall we split into the Catholic and the Orthodox? :p

premananda - Fri, 03 May 2002 21:54:15 +0530

Just a few useless thoughts...

"Does being a manjari have any significance in the here and now?"

It depends on what one defines as the "here and now".
According to a transcendentalist´s point of view the here and now of the materialistic perspective is quite different from the spiritual here and now. This world is a temporary place for the soul, it is not the true, eternal here and now. As if you guys didn´t know that already.

Being a manjari in the here and now of the world does not make much sense. [.-.]
If a soul does not identify herself with the material coverings, the here and now is the spiritual here and now of the pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna.

Most people are not interested in meditating on the pastimes of a blue God and His Beloved. They just want to enjoy life in the world´s here and now. My own experience is that the more one identifies oneself with the body, the more one wants to live a worldly life and enjoy through the senses. Has anyone else noticed?

It might not seem very relevant or important to be a manjari if one is trapped in illusion and doesn´t have any faith in the traditions who teach and preach manjari bhava. If one doesn´t have faith in the reality of Radha-Krishna, Their abode, Their associates and pastimes, etc.

I think that very few persons actually desire to be a manjari, but I wouldn´t call them an elite. It is just that it is not so common. Especially not in the West. Just as we gradually became aware of this desire, other persons also will. Internet is used by so many nowadays, and this site is an excellent tool for presenting manjari bhava to those have an interest.

Raga - Fri, 03 May 2002 22:02:58 +0530

QUOTE

Have you ever met a manjari who does not have faith in the reality of Radha-Krishna? [_]

I think the point is more on the application of manjari-bhava-sadhana for those, who take it up with great inspiration, but at one point find themselves rather entangled in this world, for one reason or another. I've heard it happens out there.
[-oo-]

Mina - Fri, 03 May 2002 22:36:22 +0530

Publishing on the net, while effective, has some hurdles to get over to reach a very wide audience. My impression is that unless someone is aggressively surfing with specific keyword searches, there is little chance they would even know about the websites, shy of some advertising campagin in the mass meda. There is also the element of the general quality of content on the net: People would tend to trust the integrity of articles in print (especially if it is in some periodical that they rely upon for news and features) and on film.

Publishing articles in magazines does not require capital, just good material (for which the author gets paid) that can pass the editorial boards. National Geographic would be a likely place to get published, since they tend to focus on Varanasi when doing features on Hindu holy places and have ignored Braj, and that would be new and fresh content for their magazine. It also has a readership that is more likely to be attracted to rAgAnugA bhajana than say the readership of People Magazine or the National Inquirer (extreme example, I know, but you get the point).

If a website can demonstrate a high enough number of hits, then that could be a barganing chip to get funding for projects and a foot in the door with publishers of periodicals.

Where there's a will, there's a way, as the saying goes. We just have to have a concerted and organized effort (no we do not need any religious institution - although a non-profit corporation would be a good idea) with a sound & workable plan.

I personally believe there actually is some amount of mass appeal to rAgAnugA bhakti, and that it is just a matter of making a good presentation. After all, how many of us back in the sixties and seventies were way into the culture of sex, drugs, and rock music, yet were able to achieve a significant level of abstinence and vairAgya in our sAdhana once we resolved to take to the path of mantra meditation and kIrtana? We should not understimate the potential of the average person to better his/her self.

Like any endeavor, there is going to be a high level of inertia at the outset, but once that is overcome and momentum is built up, projections for success look promising. We can be visionaries as well as bhajanAnandIs.

Raga - Fri, 03 May 2002 23:12:11 +0530

QUOTE

Publishing articles in magazines does not require capital, just good material (for which the author gets paid) that can pass the editorial boards. National Geographic would be a likely place to get published, since they tend to focus on Varanasi when doing features on Hindu holy places and have ignored Braj, and that would be new and fresh content for their magazine. It also has a readership that is more likely to be attracted to rAgAnugA bhajana than say the readership of People Magazine or the National Inquirer (extreme example, I know, but you get the point).

Accha. I thought you meant a magazine dedicated to Raganuga only, which would be rather impractical for a large-scale solution. Now I see the point you're making, and it makes much sense indeed.

But in addition, I would love to see a monthly e-zine published and mailed out.

QUOTE

If a website can demonstrate a high enough number of hits, then that could be a barganing chip to get funding for projects and a foot in the door with publishers of periodicals.

The vision is to have the "Gaudiya.com" and "Raganuga.org" sites work in tight cooperation, to make them a complete package -- the former being the facade, and the latter being more for those who wish to get deeper into what it means to practice the same.

Actually we used to have something of the kind when I was more involved with the reformist section of the Gaudiya tradition. We set up gaudiya.com and gaudiya.net. Nowadays things have moved around, you'll see the former gaudiya.com (some of which was done in a more relax way than I intend to have in the upcoming one) at http://gaudiya.noneto.com/ and the original gaudiya.net I created is at http://www.gaudiya.net/library/introduction.htm .

Of course once we get both of the new sites up and going, I need to do some serious work to get the traffic increase.

QUOTE

Where there's a will, there's a way, as the saying goes. We just have to have a concerted and organized effort (no we do not need any religious institution - although a non-profit corporation would be a good idea) with a sound & workable plan.

That should be no problem to set up, if and when required. "The Holy Sisterhood of Maidservants"?

Her's - Sat, 04 May 2002 07:29:31 +0530

QUOTE(raga @ May 03 2002,10:42)

QUOTE

That should be no problem to set up, if and when required. "The Holy Sisterhood of Maidservants"?

I prefer simplicity, with the emphasis on loving intimacy as opposed to `service`. How about "Girlfriends", "Sakhis", "Sakhi Manjaris", "Radha-dasya", "Radha-dasis", "Radha-dasi Manjaris", or just "Manjaris"?

This topic is very exciting to me, but so far I've resisted replying much on this forum because my approach to Raganuga may very well be considered simplistic. I would call it `emotional dovetailing` and believe that people in the West could actually be more receptive than to traditional ritualistic religious approaches.

While much has been made in Vaisnavism of our relationship with God, perhaps our relationships with each other could be better emphasized. To me, that is a vital part of manjari-bhava in particular and most essential in pleasing Sri Radhika. This can be easily applied to the concept of Christian brotherhood, once the feminine aspect of the Absolute is more widely understood, and I think this might just be the right time worldwide.

The fire is burning brightly and fuel is readily available, now all we need is a few eager arsonists!

Jagat - Sat, 04 May 2002 08:31:47 +0530

I haven't been to this thread in a while and am happy to see the quality of the discussion, which is going in a number of interesting directions.

When I was talking about the meaning of raganuga "in the world" I was perhaps leaning towards something along the lines of what Her's just posted above.

O'Connell writes in an article that I quoted elsewhere about the sense of community created by the common ideal of madhura-prema. The "sisterhood" idea sounds rather nice to me, though I sense controversy lurking in that idea.

It is universally accepted that Mahaprabhu gave prema to the most fallen. I certainly think that the only medium that this would be possible in is the Holy Name. But the part that lila kirtan played in spreading Krishna consciousness is consistently underrated by the Gaudiya Math, and since most of us come out of that tradition, by us also.

Getting late here, so I'm not making much sense. Dandavats to all. Jai Rupa and Raghunath!

Raga - Sat, 04 May 2002 15:40:12 +0530

QUOTE

Her's: I prefer simplicity, with the emphasis on loving intimacy as opposed to `service`. How about "Girlfriends", "Sakhis", "Sakhi Manjaris", "Radha-dasya", "Radha-dasis", "Radha-dasi Manjaris", or just "Manjaris"?

Well, in all honesty I must say that my proposal "The Holy Sisterhood of Maidservants" was not to be taken all that serious...

Reflecting on the dynamics of the non-prof. organization which would do much of the coordination etc. in better establishing the raganuga-tradition on the Western soil, and particularly among the population at large, it would, rather than a "Brotherhood" or "Sisterhood" or anything of a closed-sounding community, be something that sounds very credible as a facade to the world, press, academica, governments etc.

Less of a "mission" and more of a "foundation" or so.

I really feel the individual's devotional lives can well develop without an established "mission", "movement" and so, and just naturally develop into local communities of devotees.

The establishment being more of a "resource center" and so, to facilitate a coordination of efforts on the field of providing adequate information, rather than a devotee community-oriented endeavor.

I feel the latter does not really benefit from centralized establishments, at least in its present stage. Of course if and when big communities of devotees begin to grow, centralized coordination of an exchange of resources will likely be required, but I feel this is not the need of the day, really. Hardly anybody even knows what the whole thing is all about.

Raga - Sat, 04 May 2002 18:50:12 +0530

QUOTE

raga: Well, in all honesty I must say that my proposal "The Holy Sisterhood of Maidservants" was not to be taken all that serious...

But please, don't take me wrong. It is not that "The Holy Sisterhood of Maidservants", "Dasi Community", "Transcendent Loving Sakhis" or so would be bad. Even "Gopi-bhava Club".

But it would not serve the informative purpose for which we are brainstorming with Ananga. Such communities would be more likely for local purposes, in creating a loving community.

If we are to publish articles in magazines with global distribution, or in other varieties of media and among the academica etc. which more or less set the standards for how people in general see marginal cultures such as the Gaudiya tradition, I think it will not be too helpful if we come from "The Loving Group of Blossoming Manjaris" or so, in contrast to "Raganuga Cultural Foundation" or whatever. I think you catch the idea.

I think the actual emotional side of it becomes more prominent when it comes down to a local level and personal contacts with people involved with the Raganuga tradition.

Her's - Sat, 04 May 2002 20:42:05 +0530

Good points, raga prabhu! I'm just a sentimental dreamer, always wishing the Ideal would magically appear. Of course, many say that Lord Jesus will soon be coming through the clouds, so who knows--it could happen!

What I'd like to see emphasized is that this be presented as anything other than another religion; instead as sincere individuals coming together as a means of helping each other uncover the magical reality, already existing deep within our heart-of-hearts. Raganuga must, by it's very nature, remain a spontaneous, highly personal and somewhat private process.

When I first heard of the Spiritual World (Goloka Vrndavan) I was able to actually see this world we live in here as a perverted reflection of the true and pure reality. That had a profound motivating effect on me to surrender fully and just dive right in immediately!

What people in general need to see, however, are those whose realized ideals change their personal relationships for the better. We have enough examples of duplicity and deceit available in the name of religion. Considering my own life, or I should say lack of it, I would most likely be considered another mad preacher. Nice books are certainly needed, but so too are `nice` normal people. Seems to me that great teachers encouraged the mode of goodness right alongside transcendence.

I fear that Raganuga, when whole-heartedly and fervently pursued, may entail some neglect of `normalcy` in favour of transcendence, to say the least!

adiyen - Sat, 11 May 2002 08:54:02 +0530

Greetings, friends,
I think Jagat was close to the answer with his point about Lilakirtan. Raganuga begins (and ends) in Sri Krishnalila. Therefore we propagate raganuga by propagating Sri Krishnalila. People's attraction to Krishnalila will naturally draw them, eventually, to the path of raga. But Krishnalila needs to be seen of itself and for itself. Surprising how many attempts to present it have been contaminated by a narrow propaganda. For example, is there any translation of SB 10th canto available which is just a transparent translation of the text, free of propaganda for a cause? I know that the scholar Edwin Bryant of Princeton is preparing one which attempts this. Again Stoller-Miller's translation of Geetgovinda is an attempt to present the text 'as it is', likewise Dimock's translation of Sri ChaitanyaCharitamrita. Is there consensus on this point? Does anyone have any problems with these translations? And our correspondents here have published good translations free of interpolations. We should get behind those texts which we are prepared to recommend, attempt to popularise them and endeavour for their readers to hear about the tradition of Sri Chaitanya, free of unnecessary 'reformist' propaganda.

But perhaps the first step is to agree on which texts we approve of, which most transparently lead to the teachings of the traditional followers of Sri Chaitanya.

Along with this we should beware of assuming that people need any prerequisites to taste the nectar of Sri Govindalila. The common mistake is to believe that because 'I have come by this path others will also come this way'. For example, are religious people necessarily attracted to Govindalila? Or does one need to come to it via Gaudiya Math etc? Might these same factors also tend to be obstacles on the path?

Krishnalila speaks for itself when it is allowed to. Potential raganugas are naturally attracted to it. There never was a need to persuade people to it with extraneous discussion, though there was and is a need to defend the tradition against those, east and west, who would defame it.

iti
Adiyen.

adiyen - Mon, 13 May 2002 17:05:21 +0530

Hmmm, sorry if I killed the vibe with my bombastic tone. Please feel free to continue if you want to.
Adi

Mina - Mon, 13 May 2002 20:44:04 +0530

You just have to be patient. It could be a few days before anyone posts something new. You perhaps have become accustomed to high activity levels found on other websites. Things move at a much slower and relaxed pace here.

adiyen - Tue, 14 May 2002 10:44:24 +0530

That's nice, thanks Anangaji. I don't post much, though a couple of my letters have been immortalised on Bhajan Kutir- about this same topic so I'm quite interested in it. My view, for example, is that Dimock's 'Place of the Hidden Moon' in the mid 60s marks the advent of a strong interest in Raga bhakti in the West which hasn't subsided. We just have to connect with those who are interested. Though it would never be a mass movement. And a lot of the boundaries are unclear, for example how much we approve of Dimock's approach in that book.

Have you noticed that Catholics nowadays talk a lot about 'social justice'? A lot of religious people focus on the ethical side of religion (including Emmanuel Levinas so I've been very curious what Nitai was going to say about him). We are more on the aesthetic side. In fact we may be closer to artists and poets than to 'religious' people.

Adi

Raga - Mon, 20 May 2002 20:16:26 +0530

QUOTE

Adiyen: We are more on the aesthetic side. In fact we may be closer to artists and poets than to 'religious' people.

I must admit there is much truth to what you're saying. "Religious artists, religious poets" perhaps?

I know the term "dharma" is often understood as "religion", though it is not an exact equivalent I believe. But how would the "raganuga" tradition be classified? Can it be justly called "dharma"? The term "dharma" tends to invoke the concepts "religious law", "obligatory duty" etc. which are not in harmony with the inspirational and innovative nature of something for which raga is the impetus.

We have the famous verse na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa-niruktaM kila kuru | vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura paricaryAm iha tanu | from Raghunatha Dasa Gosvamipada. Any thoughts?

adiyen - Tue, 21 May 2002 09:43:56 +0530

First, Raganuga must be seen as a branch of Vaishava Dharma, but as with Raganuga, Vaishnava Dharma has been misunderstood. It is very close to Buddhism. The fundamental word common to all traditional Vaishnava concepts of Dharma would be Humility. This entails a respect for all life.

The world has already seen a great example of Vaishnava humility in Mahatma Gandhi who used to sing the song 'Vaishnav Janato', written by the Gujarati Bhakta Narsing Mehta about 500 years ago. Narsing is said to have expressed a desire for feminine devotion to the Lord.

The song expresses many aspects common to all Vaishnavas:

"He who knows the troubles of others is a true Vaishnav
He brings happiness to others but has no pride nor needs thanks
He worships everybody in the world
He criticises no-one...
He is fair to all, he does not covet...
No falsehood escapes his tongue...
He is not attracted to wordly goods
He is vairagi of mind..."

But surely such Dharma leads to a higher 'lawlessness', an ideal which is very rare in this world. Gandhi spoke of a non-violent world. In fact a world of Vaishnavas as in the above song. Whether this is practical is debateable. The alternative is to 'let this world be' and focus on the Beyond, the Ideal. This ethical dialectic raised by Gandhi (and Tolstoy) is well known in the broad world but its Vaishnav roots are not.

Raganuga would be that group who focus on the Beyond.
Adi.

adiyen - Sat, 25 May 2002 14:24:21 +0530

Now, friends, to the question, 'How do we present Raganuga to Westerners?'

Consider a hypothetical example: Bhakta Hans is a follower of meditational yoga, but otherwise not religious. He hears about the meditational practices of the Babas. He comes to India from Europe to meet them, finds he likes them, and spends time hearing and learning from them. He is young and healthy and very enthusiastic. Soon he finds that he has learnt many of the practises of the Babas- as much as they feel he is ready for. Indeed at some point they feel he is ready for Lila Smaran and he experiences an indescribable happiness as his practise deepens. A wonderful world has opened up for him which no-one could have prepared him for, yet he still has only a vague idea of how to explain all this to the folks back home. Is it a 'religion'? Is it 'yoga'? Is it just an exotic lifestyle choice? Indeed has he changed his religion or would he still get married in a church back home? Would it matter? If he has to return to Europe, which aspects of the life he led in India would he bring with him?

We might be agreed on a few to start with: vegetarianism, a special regard for cleanliness, simplicity, maintaining his sadhana...

Now say he wanted to tell others in Europe about what he had experienced. Where would he begin? I submit that over a century after Bhaktivinoda tried to spread Gaudiya Vaishnavism to the West, and many experiments to that end later (some more successful than others but all problematic) 'Where to begin?' and 'How much change is necessary? How much is desireable?' remain the big questions.
Adi.

Raga - Sun, 26 May 2002 00:44:50 +0530

Returning to the issue, "What is this?". It is very hard for me to define the raganuga tradition as belonging to any other category than into itself. The category of "religion" as well as the categories of "art" and "poetry" all seem to limit, and not convey an impression of what it is all about.

Recently I read an interesting article, "Religious culture of Vraja". (read here) The author boils down the idea of raganuga bhakti sadhana:

QUOTE

Rupa Gosvami established a technique by which, in imitation of one of the significant figures in Krishna's dramatic world, a devotee might actually come to inhabit the world of the character whose part he or she was playing.

Such role-playing is called "Raganuga Bhakti Sadhana", a natural part of human experience and the pre-eminent way to salvation.

I found it fascinating that the author called this "role-playing" -- in my view a very depictive expression. I do not know how much our audience here is familiar with the concept of "role-playing" in the modern world. Classically it includes a scenario within a realm very different from that of our present experience along with characters of that world with whom the "player" interacts in a new identity given to him, one befitting the interactions in the other world. Often the players assume a considerable degree of identification with their "play-character", the other-worldly identity, and spend days, if not months, within their other world.

This, of course, again lacks the aspect of "religion" (though their worlds also do have "gods"), an idea of selfless, unconditional surrender as promulgated in the BRS of Rupa. Needless to say, it also lacks a conception of the other world's reality and permanence.

To label the raganuga-tradition as a "religion" risks its being confused with the vast variety of religions in this world, in which a clear conception of the Divine World and our personal part in the play is for the most part, if not completely lacking. I am yet to learn of a religion in which the practitioner begins to identify with another, divine identity in the other world during his presence in this world (though they say, "The Kingdom of God is within your heart.").

In fact, I am very shy to introduce the raganuga tradition to people seeking for "religion", since a majority of the religion-seeking populace belong into the two first classes of pious men who turn towards the Lord as listed in the Gita, "the suffering" and "those desirous of wealth". Unfortunately "the inquisitive" (or "the curious") and "the men of wisdom" are very rare in this world. I believe the later two classes are likely the Western audience who will be more inclined towards the raganuga tradition as it is, and the rest will be more inclined towards the vaidhi-oriented, less esoteric movements which have sprung within the Gaudiya tradition within the last 100 years or so.

More thoughts on this, anyone? [-o-]

adiyen - Mon, 27 May 2002 09:49:35 +0530

'I am yet to learn of a religion in which the practitioner begins to identify with another, divine identity in the other world during his presence in this world (though they say, "The Kingdom of God is within your heart.").'

Are you sure Raga? What about Voodoo? (!)

Seriously though, most ancient religions were based on shamanism or spirit possession, not quite the same as manasa seva. But here's something interesting:

Sri Rupa's aesthetic terminology came from Natayshastra, sanskrit drama. An Indian scholar has analysed the parallels between Ancient Indian and Greek dramas. (http://personal.vsnl.com/bharatgupt/) Now Greek drama was originally sacred roleplay, which is what I think you are referring to. David Haberman's book does suggest this, either explicitly or implicitly. The roots of sacred roleplay are very likely in spirit possession which was a very common idea in Ancient Greece (oracles and muses). Also the ancient Elysian Mystery religions involved a series of initiations up to a climax which may have involved divine possession. The devotees of the forest god Dyonisus (who the Greeks may have identified with either Krishna or Shiva) became possessed with his spirit and went into ecstacy. Now Gupt notes that the goal of Greek tragedy was a 'divine' katharsis, which he parallels with rasa (or bhava) which was the goal of Indian drama. Add to that the common aryan roots of Greek and Indian traditions and you have some suggestive prehistory for Raganuga.

As well as that, the Tantric ideas in Tibet are known to have come from ancient Bengal, and did you know that Tibetan Buddhists practice making thousands of mental prostrations to Buddha as their meditation? Buddhist tantrics also make use of a range of meditational images, mandalas, like lotuses with Buddha.

But Raganuga is certainly unique in many ways. Not least that it is probably the most joyful and sweet religious meditation of any.

What I was getting at was that it will mean different things to different people according to their background, and it is possible to connect it to people from a very diverse range. To the Yoga-ist it will be an attractive meditation technique (not unlike Tibetan initially). To the Christian it is a much more complete Theology of Heaven. To the poet or artist it is the perfection of the aesthetic life. Even to the political activist its achar may be seen as a form of Gandhism. etc etc
Adi.

Bhaktavasya - Mon, 27 May 2002 13:51:08 +0530

QUOTE(raga @ May 25 2002,14:14)

QUOTE

"A constant remembrance uninterrupted like the flow of oil"

Thankyou Raga for the amazingly wonderful description from the mouth of Rupa Goswami!

First visit to this topic-thread tonight. I feel like role-playing Sri Chaitanya; ta

sting the matured fruits from the tree of love of God. Hmmm. More, please! :D

Raga - Tue, 28 May 2002 14:16:50 +0530

Adien, when I glance over the list of traditions you present, all having some semblance with the raganuga tradition, I tend to come up with one term -- "mysticism". From Webster:

1 : the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics

2 : the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)

Now, emplying this term certainly is not going to invoke the blessings of the born-again people and others of the same brand, though their early tradition also had a number of mystic saints.

I would also like to offer the definition of "mystical":

1 a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence

b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective communion with God or ultimate reality

Even the word "mystery" from which the two aforementioned concepts are derived is interesting:

1 a : a religious truth that one can know only by revelation and cannot fully understand

b : any of the 15 events (as the Nativity, the Crucifixion, or the Assumption) serving as a subject for meditation during the saying of the rosary

I find these concepts to be a closer match to the raganuga tradition than either "poetry, art" or "religion, philosophy", or indeed a combination of them.

Are we getting close yet?

I am looking forward hearing Anangaji's comments. He left out for vacation last Friday and promised to get back to writing when he returns -- but he never told me when that would be.

adiyen - Wed, 29 May 2002 12:48:48 +0530

Yes, we're getting close, let's not get too close though, to the point where we narrow our options.

You might want to look up the term 'gnostic', too. Though it only translates as 'Jnana' and the dualistic theology is not applicable east of Persia (where it originated with Zoroaster), but the Gnostic roots of western mysticism are well accepted (Gospel of Thomas), and the central importance of initiation into a lineage, supposedly going back to the Elyisian Mysteries sometimes, makes it very apt comparison. Over to you all...

Mina - Thu, 30 May 2002 21:45:08 +0530

We just returned from our trip late last night.

Actually, Nitai Das would have more input, having done work on Sanskrit aesthetics texts (David Haberman was in some classes with us as a fellow grad student at University of Chicago. He stayed for some time with Srivatsa Goswami at Caitanya Prem Samsthan).

Raga - Fri, 31 May 2002 01:09:23 +0530

Welcome back, Ananga!

Let us invite Nitai Das over into the discussion (I hope he finds the time for it).

adiyen - Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:08:40 +0530

Raga,
I have been appreciating the new Q&A section which forms an excellent introduction to Ragamarga, as does the other material on this site (Congrats!). As I read I get excited by the clarity and beauty of the teachings, and I start thinking 'Let's print this material in an introductory booklet, print thousands of copies, distribute them widely accross the world, open preaching centres...'

And then (in line with the discussion on this thread) I stop myself with 'There you go again, the whole cycle starting over... another Institution with bureaucratic rules and ideological enemies...'

So, in light of this discussion, I ask myself, 'Is that what we want?

I propose that there are two alternatives: populism with superficial following, or an intellectual group risking being 'armchair philosophers' (One of the more penetrating comments made by Srila Swami Prabhupad). Not that the risk isn't worth taking!

By the way, there is a Journal on the 'web devoted to Initiatory Esoteric Practices (eg Rosicrucianism and Masonism, all linked to Gnosticism). I suggest we try to publish something with them, either collectively or individually.

Madhava - Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:47:28 +0530

QUOTE

As I read I get excited by the clarity and beauty of the teachings, and I start thinking 'Let's print this material in an introductory booklet, print thousands of copies, distribute them widely accross the world, open preaching centres...'

And then (in line with the discussion on this thread) I stop myself with 'There you go again, the whole cycle starting over... another Institution with bureaucratic rules and ideological enemies...'

I wouldn't see an introductory booklet a bad idea in itself. In fact, I am working on an online version of the same at www.gaudiya.com . However, you'll note it is not done in the spirit of "here we come, take it or leave it, but we take it and you should take it too!".

I don't see organization as such as the root of evil, given that a degree of organization is mandatory to coordinate resources and get anything together beyond individual bhajan. Of course individual bhajan is the essence, but it appears that we do want to share this treasure with others as well.

QUOTE

I propose that there are two alternatives: populism with superficial following, or an intellectual group risking being 'armchair philosophers' (One of the more penetrating comments made by Srila Swami Prabhupad). Not that the risk isn't worth taking!

I think both will always exist, the class of superficial following and the class of armchair philosophers. I believe the tradition can accommodate both, in addition to a number of other brands of followers. We really only get problems when we begin imposing one way as "our way" and the only way. If we are generous enough to allow and respect variation within the tradition, it should not be a big issue. It does require some broad-mindedness.