Whatever is left over from the archives of the old Raganuga.Com forums after most of the substantial threads were moved to the relevant areas of the main forums.
Smth. to aspire for -
Vrajasundari - Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:18:36 +0530
Dandavats to the assembled Vaisnavas!
I would like to share with you a verse from Sri Vrindavan Mahimamrita (2.16) together with a little suggestion:
"When, becoming dumb to jokes mocking others, deaf and blind to others' faults, and inactive like a stone in the matter of bringing others even the slightest pain, will I reside in this Vrindavan forest that is so dear to Lord Krishna?"
The original text is unfortunately not at my disposal, but I am sure the learned audience will be able to fill in the gap in no time...
I would like to say that association and Hari katha presented in this forum and site is so sweet and inspiring, but I am a little sad to see that some seem to find quite some pleasure in ridiculing those Vaisnavas who are following the path of bhakti in a different way or who are simply on a different level...
I guess this can not be classified as preaching (since preaching to those of different views is not the objective of this forum), and I do not see any real benefit in such ridiculing.
Why not show by example that following the process of raganuga sadhana bhakti indeed bestows upon a sincere sadhaka the attachment to the service of the Divine Couple and at the same time brings about relief from finding pleasure in criticizing and mocking others and in glorifying one self or one's extended self?
Recently I've read somewhere (don't know the reference - sorry...) that to take a vow of not criticizing during the month of Kartik is especially auspicious... we still have a few days left... And even after that such a vow can not possibly harm anyone's spiritual realization,,, It can only bring benefit and make us more convincing... (Otherwise who will take you seriously when you speak high philosophy and discuss intimate lilas of Sri Sri Radha Krishna and at the same time cannot stop praising yourself and deriding everyone else?)
Does somebody feel like joining in taking this vow?
Hari Hari!
Vrajasundari
Radhapada - Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:28:57 +0530
:eh:
Madhava - Sun, 10 Nov 2002 23:57:37 +0530
Personally I feel our little online sanga has been doing rather well in terms of avoiding unjust critique of others and so forth.
Sometimes there is a need to discuss the history of the tradition vis-a-vis Gaudiya Matha and its branches, given the fact that many of us have a history there, and have been subjected to several mispresentations (I hate to call them lies) of the tradition's history and certain areas of philosophy. Personally I believe it is better to address those misconceptions in a gentle manner, rather than to let people carry them along in their lives. Many of the historical events people learn in the Gaudiya Math have Vaishnava-aparadha inherent in them, as certain sadhus, alas, entire communities of sadhus, are misrepresented and portrayed in a condescending manner, this extending to practically the rest of the Gaudiya tradition outside their own group, unfortunately.
QUOTE
Why not show by example that following the process of raganuga sadhana bhakti indeed bestows upon a sincere sadhaka the attachment to the service of the Divine Couple and at the same time brings about relief from finding pleasure in criticizing and mocking others and in glorifying one self or one's extended self?
I doubt that anyone in these forums finds pleasure in criticizing and mocking others and in glorifying oneself. Many do have a need to discuss topics concerning them, and for the most part, this means topics related with the Gaudiya Math. Personally I am doing my best trying to stick to a rather dry presentation of facts and history to the best of my awareness, for the very purpose of avoiding the questionable "relish" you warned us about.
If you feel improper posts have been posted somewhere, perhaps you can notify me about it (even if it was posted by myself). I have now set up a feature which allows you to anonymously notify the moderator about a post you feel inappropriate. Every post has a link "Report this post to a moderator" in its bottom right corner. Clicking on it brings up a form where you can enter a couple of words to describe why you feel it is inappropriate. Clicking "Send" sends me an ananonymous message in the following format:
QUOTE
Reporting a post to a moderator:
================================
Link to Post:
http://www.raganuga.com/cgi-bin....try2785Topic Title: Smth. to aspire for
Forum: MISCELLANEOUS DISCUSSIONS
Reported on: Nov. 10 2002,12:05
Message:
Why is Radhapada writing like this? Why did he laugh to his own joke in that Hanuman Prakash Swami post? I felt it was inappropriate.
I can then, if necessary, discuss the topic further with the person concerned with the post. We are trying to keep the atmosphere as clean as ever possible, however, without blocking people from discussing topics they feel they need to clarify.
The verse from Vrindavana Mahimamrita reads as follows:
parIhAse’py anyApriya-kathana-mUko’tivadhiraH
pareSAM doSAnuzrutim anu viloke’ndha-nayanaH |
zilAvan nizceSTaH para-vapuSi bAdhA-lava-vidhau
kadA vatsyAmy asmin hari-dayita-vRndAvana-vane ||2.16||
I have opened a new topic to examine the subject matter of Vaishnava-aparadha.
Vrajasundari - Mon, 11 Nov 2002 00:00:57 +0530
Oh, my text was not directed to any one individual in particular. Just got this general notion that there might be some space for improvements... But, as always, I might be totaly wrong...
Knocking anyone was also not my idea... I sincerely apologize to everyone who might have gotten that feeling. My idea was simply to try encourage some more positive mood, nothing else, and I am certainly the first one who needs to improve in this regard.
Apologize to all the gentle Vaisnavas that may feel attacked or hurt by my impudent writing.
All the best,
Vrajasundari
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 11 Nov 2002 05:50:47 +0530
*Quote* (Vrajasundari @ Nov. 10 2002,10:48)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I would like to say that association and Hari katha presented in this forum and site is so sweet and inspiring, but I am a little sad to see that some seem to find quite some pleasure in ridiculing those Vaisnavas who are following the path of bhakti in a different way or who are simply on a different level...
Is it different level maybe that to talk ill around about devotees which are not in certain Gaudiya Matha?Isn't that aparadha?Where is here any level?
I guess this can not be classified as preaching (since preaching to those of different views is not the objective of this forum), and I do not see any real benefit in such ridiculing.
This is just response.Nobody didn't ridicule anybody.
Why not show by example that following the process of raganuga sadhana bhakti indeed bestows upon a sincere sadhaka the attachment to the service of the Divine Couple and at the same time brings about relief from finding pleasure in criticizing and mocking others and in glorifying one self or one's extended self?
I suppose that because one is following raganuga bhakti he should remain silent while somebody is talking ill about her or his Guru?
5.)Does somebody feel like joining in taking this vow?
Vows without a heart in it are without effect. Do you agree?
Madhava - Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:00:04 +0530
Let us not judge others, and let us not judge the judge, and let us also not judge the one who judged the judge.
I am certain that each individual in this world who has not attained prema has some scope for improvement. Most of us haven't, and therefore I would not say that nobody here has ever ridiculed anyone, or that nobody here has ever praised himself or derided somebody else. According to Rupa, it is the uttama-adhikari whose heart is devoid of propensity for ninda, and for the rest of us, the propensity is there to one extent or to another.
So let us all pay attention to not even accidentally cast an unfair word upon others, regardless of their background. It is always good to be reminded of this.
However, I must say that some expressions in what Vrajasundari wrote were unjust, such as the following:
QUOTE
Otherwise who will take you seriously when you speak high philosophy and discuss intimate lilas of Sri Sri Radha Krishna and at the same time cannot stop praising yourself and deriding everyone else?
This was certainly an unfair statement. I am yet to locate an attitude of constantly praising myself (or my extended self, the people here -- hi all, my dear expansions!) or deriding everyone else. I would personally not tolerate such an attitude, and I think it is rather unfair to say that people here foster such an attitude. What do you think, Vrajasundari?
Radhapada - Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:17:11 +0530
Thanks for tip for Kartik, and all time.
Madhava - Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:10:11 +0530
QUOTE
5.)Does somebody feel like joining in taking this vow?
Vows without heart in it are without effect. Do you agree?
That is a point seriously worth considering. What is the use of a vow if it is not based on a proper understanding? A vow undertaken out of formality is bound to be broken. Also, when we speak of developing a proper Vaishnava attitude and so forth, it is not something to be adopted for a particular period of time to come, but for all times. The second shower of the Cloudbank of Sweetness by Visvanatha addresses niyamAkSama, the inability to hold up vows one has taken. This arises on account of combined enthusiasm and immaturity. It is best to mature in one's understanding and base all of one's deeds on the steady platform of proper comprehension.
Tamal Baran das - Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:21:06 +0530
Thank you Madhava,for this nice explanation.
Good point.What is then use of whole bhajana and all vows, when one is just there for some time and then disappears.Although, Sri Sri Radha Krishna always take care of everybody.But i also think that whenever one is properly initiated then this is very beneficial, and adds in whole, to that proper relation to ones Guru, other sadhus,gurubrothers and gurusisters, careful study of sastra, proper understanding,experience,real spiritual humility,and many other related items.Creeper of devotion is growing then definitely. In some cases slow,in some faster, but one of the main things is to develop the proper understanding of ones position and to develop real taste for bhajana.
Jagat - Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:53:59 +0530
I have been making some comments on this topic elsewhere. I think the following may be seen as relevant. Some changes have been made:
The whole idea behind humility is that you recognize the gulf that separates you from perfection. Since perfection is always in the future (just like the sky or the ocean), the purest devotee is simply the one who is most acutely aware of his own insufficiency.
There is a tendency to mistake the externals of devotional service for its essence. One may think that because one adheres to the process, one has somehow achieved the goal. Paradoxically, this may easily become worse through closer and more intense adherence! Though this is a greater danger to the vaidha bhakta, it can easily happen to the raganuga devotee as well.
[The difference between the two is this: the vaidhi bhakta sees devotional activities like sravana and kirtana as a means, whereas the raganuga bhakta sees them more as "anubhavas"--the expressions of an internal impulse. However, as Bhaktivinoda points out, the raganuga and vaidhi modes are not perfectly distinct, so all sadhakas must have recourse to the vaidhi path to some extent. That's why Krishna Das says, siddhAnta boliye citte nA koro alas]
Another aspect of this phenomenon is what I have been calling "ego inflation by identification". This is an unconscious process that takes place when one tries to substitute one's own deficiencies by identifying with someone else who is perceived as perfect. Of course, that person is God, but since God is far away, we tend to identify with something closer, like a sect or a guru. By so doing, we mask our own deficiencies by claiming membership in something that is transcendental to worldly flaws, or so we claim.
These are both kanishtha adhikari mentalities. They are indicative of a facsimile of faith that is easily punctured when the guru, the organization or whatever external thing we are identifying with fails us.
These mentalities are furthermore destructive of humility, without which there is no possibility of devotional life.
Those of us who stand outside the Gaudiya Math have observed a certain institutionalization of the heroic "demon-killing" mood, as opposed to the sweet mood.
For the conditioned soul, there are inherent dangers in every devotional mood. Each of them can easily turn into its reflection if one is not careful. The dangers of the erotic mood were clearly enunciated by the Gaudiya Math, but they seem to have failed to recognize the dangers of the heroic.
This vira-rasa mood can become like a cancer, not knowing where to stop. When it turns against other Vaishnavas, it in fact turns in on itself and becomes destructive of the organism of bhakti itself.
Puranjan is the most ready example, but he is just a caricature of something that persists throughout the Gaudiya Math.
It is, of course, human nature and no one is entirely free from the tendencies to kutinati, para-carca and para-ninda, but when one does not nip this tendency in the bud, indeed, when the entire edifice is constructed on an foundation of aparadh, one sees the external trappings of devotion, but the absence of a core.