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Discussions on other Vaishnava-sampradayas and Gaudiyas other than the Rupanuga-tradition should go here. This includes for example Madhva, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Gaura-nagari, Radha-vallabhi and the such.

Tulsi das - Rama Carita Manasa



Madanmohan das - Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:12:40 +0530
Whilst in Vraja recently I had the rare opertunity to stay with local farmers, and from them became inspired to read the Rama Carita Manasa of Tulsi das. Like most of us I guess, I had heard of the book, but generally payed little heed to Rama lila, having made previously several unsuccessful attemts to read Valmiki's epic published by our noble Gita Press at Ghorakpura. So I set about procuring a copy, and knew it was readily availabe in Gita Press fashion, and started reading. In the meantime I came accross another edition published by the Krsna Janmastan Sansthan; this one has the English verse rendering of The reverend A G Atkins along with the original Hindi text - marvelous! Here's a bit;

I honour the dust of my lord's lotus feet,
So brilliant and fragrant, refreshing and sweet;

The substance and root of the life that is deathless,
All evils allaying and rendr'ing them harmless;

Like ashes on lord Siva's body divine,
'Tis the giver of joy ever glorious and fine;

'Tis the cleanser of filth from the mirror-like soul;
Once applied it brings virtues within our control.

Recalling the nails of his feet, jewel-bright,
All my heart is illumined with heavenly light.

Like sun-rays the darkness of error dispelling;
How blessed is he in whose heart is it's dwelling.

When heavenly glory thus lightens the heart
All the night shades of evil and sorrow depart.

Then Rama's deeds shine like a jewel's clear ray,
To be found where the mine may conceal or display.


Unlike what I'm used to the verse is not in any iambic metre, but rather the feet have three sylables as opposed to two. Once you get used to the -
and a one and a two and a three and a four-, type metre it flows very pleasantly, sometimes excetionally well. Many rasas are portrayed from pathos to chivalry and amazing scenes of combat in the Lanka Kanda.
Here is a remarkable meditation represented as a vision gained by Svayambhuva Manu and his consort Satarupa;

As blue as the lotus, as blue as the saphire,
Dark blue as rain-clouds in a storm;
To shame would a million million Love-gods
Be put by his glorious form.

Like autumn moon perfect in beauty his face;
Cheeks, chin and neck dimpled and shell-like in grace;

Red lips: shapely teeth and nose; o'er all a smile
Whose light would shame moon-beams, and shines all the while;

His eyes like young lotus buds, bright with a glance
Whose beauty must all those who see it entrance;

His brows would the bow of the Love-god outshine;
Above on his forehead a fair sacred sign;

Fish-like gems in his ears; on his head golden crown;
Like swarming bees curls from his head hanging down......


Here is Chaupai 233 from the Bala Kanda;

A sakhi of Sita, having strayed in the temple garden, saw the two youths, and upon return was questioned about what she had seen.

"In the garden I wandered and looked," she replied;
"On a sudden there two handsome youths I espied;

"One dark and one fair; could I tell you, I might,
"But my eyes have no tongue and my tongue has no sight." biggrin.gif

They all showed their joy as around they came thronging,
And, seeing in Sita's sweet face her great longing,

One said, "These are surely, I give you my word,
"The prinses who came with the saint, as we heard;

"Their beauty wins hearts ev'rywhere, 'tis related;
"The townsmen and women are all fascinated;

"They're talking of naught but their beauty, I'm told;
"Let's all go and see them, a sight to behold."

All welcomed these words; Sita chiefly was pleased;
Her eyes for a sight of the youths her mind teased.

She went to the spot, that maid going before;
None knew that her love was an old love of yore.
Madanmohan das - Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:05:54 +0530
One couplet I came accross that is a bit of an eye-brow raiser.

A dullard, outcaste, woman, drum and dumb beast
Must be beaten, or else they'll not serve one the least.


If nobody responds it may be assumed that the above is approved.
Apriory appologies for provocation, but how should we look at such statements and their propriety? Time, place and circumstance? I really want to know why Tulsi das wrote these words representing the utterances of the Ocean-god to Rama. Is it an interpolation, or is there actually sanction in Vedic society for administering corperel punishment as above mentioned.

Here's the Hindi

Dola gavAMra sudra pasu nArI/
sakala tAranA ke adhikAri//
Sakhicharan - Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:08:27 +0530
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Nov 29 2005, 10:35 AM)
One couplet I came accross that is a bit of an eye-brow raiser.

A dullard, outcaste, woman, drum and dumb beast
Must be beaten, or else they'll not serve one the least.


If nobody responds it may be assumed that the above is approved.

Dola gavAMra sudra pasu nArI/
sakala tAranA ke adhikAri//

Sounds to me like the author is a dullard and a beast..I don't intend to beat him in any case... I am gonna go with interpolation. smile.gif
Gaurasundara - Wed, 30 Nov 2005 06:16:40 +0530
Apparently this verse is identical to another that is to be found in the Manu dharma-sastra.
Madanmohan das - Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:31:25 +0530
What's Manu Dharma sastra say then? It would'nt be so bad if it read that some person types may be fit for correction by chastisement or something, but it leaves so much scope for nasty people to do nasty things. Of course in the context that the couplet is spoken it may be taken more lightly perhaps. The Ocean god condemns himself for arrogance in not heeding Rama's initial intention to cross the ocean, recognising himself as one fit for a sound beating. So perhaps it means certain people may need to be frightened into doing what they are supposed to do biggrin.gif I don't know. I reckon most people also silently approve of the notion. unsure.gif

Madanmohan das - Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:41:38 +0530
Anyway I just finished the whole book and it really is fantastic. I think I'm gonna read it again for good measure. There is a good Hindi film about Tulsi das available through various ISKCON outlets. Well worth watching and very inspiring for reading the Rama Carita Manas. Next should really be Valmikis version for comparison and further relish blink.gif , but is I believe much longer.

Hari bol!
Madanmohan das - Sat, 03 Dec 2005 23:52:49 +0530
From the nativity.

Chaupai 204 Balakanda

As dark as rain-clouds, or blue lotus, with charms
Of a myriad Cupids, he lay in her arms;

His feet like red lilies; his little nails showing
Like pearls on the petals, each milky and glowing;

On each sole the flag, goad and thunderbolt print;
And anklets whose tinkling would ravish a saint;

A girdle of bells at his waist; three-lined dimple;
And navel so deep- if but seen faith were simple;

Long arms, each by bright jewelled armlets encircled;
A tiger's claw set in gems near his heart sparkled;

A diamond necklet; and there on his breast
A Brahman's plain foot-print, the mind to arrest;

A neck and chin shell-like in grace, and above
A face with the charm of untold gods of love;

Two teeth above, two bellow; lips full and red;
A nose and a forehaed-mark - fit words have fled!

Two well-shapen ears and two beautiful cheeks;
In sweet childish prattle and lisping he speaks;

His eyes full and blue like the fair lotus-queen;
Two heavy brow arches and locks in between;

His mother oft tended the hair of her child,
It shone thick and curly, and always well-oiled;

In a bright yellow shirt his wee body was clad;
On his hands and knees crawling - a ravishing lad!

Who could tell all his charm? Why, a god would be daunted;
One may get a faint grasp if vision be granted.


Aha aha! biggrin.gif
Madanmohan das - Sun, 04 Dec 2005 00:10:26 +0530
Visvarupa Darsan

Balakanda Doha 119

Then to her a sight of his wondrous true form, his form universal he showed;
In every hair of his body before her a myriad bright worlds glowed.


Chaupai 207

Many Sivas, Brahmas, Suns and Moons with bright beams
Did she see; many worlds, oceans, woods, hills and streams;

She saw time and fate; virtue, wisdom and Nature;
She saw things ne'er seen or heard by any creature;

Illusion she saw also folding her hands,
With pow'r over all, tho' in trembling she stands;

All souls by Illusion she saw set in motion,
And that which her power breaks, faithful devotion;

O'ercome with the thrill, she could utter no sound,
But bowed with eyes closed and in rev'rence profound.

Her trouble he saw, then again he, whose name
Makes the demons to tremble, an infant became.

She offered him praise, but one thing made her fear,
That as son she the father of worlds held too dear;

While he, the lord, made this request on his part;
"Tell no one these things, mother dear to my heart."


Doha 200

As oft as he made his request, her hands folded, Kausalya would make her petition,
"O, never again may your power illusive confuse me, my lord, with such vision."
Madanmohan das - Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:13:29 +0530
QUOTE(Sakhicharan @ Nov 29 2005, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Nov 29 2005, 10:35 AM)
One couplet I came accross that is a bit of an eye-brow raiser.

A dullard, outcaste, woman, drum and dumb beast
Must be beaten, or else they'll not serve one the least.


If nobody responds it may be assumed that the above is approved.

Dola gavAMra sudra pasu nArI/
sakala tAranA ke adhikAri//

Sounds to me like the author is a dullard and a beast..I don't intend to beat him in any case... I am gonna go with interpolation. smile.gif



You'll be glad to see this sloka I came accross today.

praharanti na vai strISukRtAgahsvapi jantavah/
kimuta tvadvidhA rAjan karuNA dInavatsalAh//


The Earth goddess supplicating Adi raja Prthu;

Even uncultured people do not strike women, even if they be guilty.
How can a kind and merciful-to-the-wrecthed person such as yourself do so?


Bhag 4/17/20 Trans. Swami Tapasyananda
Sakhicharan - Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:27:53 +0530
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Dec 6 2005, 12:43 PM)
QUOTE(Sakhicharan @ Nov 29 2005, 11:38 PM)
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Nov 29 2005, 10:35 AM)
One couplet I came accross that is a bit of an eye-brow raiser.

A dullard, outcaste, woman, drum and dumb beast
Must be beaten, or else they'll not serve one the least.


If nobody responds it may be assumed that the above is approved.

Dola gavAMra sudra pasu nArI/
sakala tAranA ke adhikAri//

Sounds to me like the author is a dullard and a beast..I don't intend to beat him in any case... I am gonna go with interpolation. smile.gif


You'll be glad to see this sloka I came accross today.

praharanti na vai strISukRtAgahsvapi jantavah/
kimuta tvadvidhA rAjan karuNA dInavatsalAh//


The Earth goddess supplicating Adi raja Prthu;

Even uncultured people do not strike women, even if they be guilty. How can a kind and merciful-to-the-wrecthed person such as yourself do so?

Bhag 4/17/20 Trans. Swami Tapasyananda

It seems so uncanny that you now commented on that post of mine. I was just thinking of it 3 minutes ago... blink.gif

That is indeed much better! smile.gif
Madanmohan das - Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:35:29 +0530
Indeed, when I read that sloka in the canteen at work I had to jump out of my seat and congratulate the nearest person on how well they looked today biggrin.gif

Here's another memorable couplet from the other day;

ko nAma loke puruSArthasAravit
purAkathAnAM bhagavatkathAsudhAm/
ApIya karNAnjalibhirbhavApahAM
aho virajyeta vinA naretaram//


Except for a brutish man, who, having discrimination
and a true sense of life's values, would desist from
consuming the nectar of the lord's exploits, gathered
from the ancient narratives, if he had but once filled
the vesel of his ears and come to know it's delectableness?


Bhag 3/13/50
Advaitadas - Wed, 07 Dec 2005 01:31:18 +0530
QUOTE
praharanti na vai strISukRtAgahsvapi jantavah/
kimuta tvadvidhA rAjan karuNA dInavatsalAh//

The Earth goddess supplicating Adi raja Prthu;

Even uncultured people do not strike women, even if they be guilty.
How can a kind and merciful-to-the-wrecthed person such as yourself do so?

Bhag 4/17/20 Trans. Swami Tapasyananda


The verdict of the Bhagavata is the final word, and the highest...... flowers.gif
vijayalakshmi - Wed, 07 Dec 2005 01:40:53 +0530
QUOTE
The Earth goddess


When She speaks, expect to hear such wonders. blush.gif
Madanmohan das - Thu, 08 Dec 2005 03:17:43 +0530
Azcaryavat- like amazing! biggrin.gif

samudramekhale devi parvata stana maNDale/
viSNupatni namastubhyaM pAdasparsa kSamasva me//


O goddess Earth! whose girdle is the mighty ocean
and whose breasts are the mountain peaks,
Salutations unto thee, consort of Visnu.
Forgive me for touching you with my feet.


Customarily recited before placing one's feet out of bed.
Yadupati - Sat, 17 Dec 2005 03:44:01 +0530
QUOTE(Madanmohan das @ Nov 30 2005, 10:01 AM)
What's Manu Dharma sastra say then?

According to Dr Ramdat Bharadwaj (incidentally his promotor was prof. O.B.L. Kapoor) in The Philosophy of Tulsidas that particular verse might come from Garga Samhita. We should also consider the cultural context of verses about women. In Europe those attitudes towards women were very commom too. John Taylor (1580-1654) wrote:
A woman, a dog, and a walnut tree,
The more you beat them the better they be.

Manu Samhita is also ambivalent about women (who isn't?) e.g.:

Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their
natural heartlessness, they become disloyal to their husbands, however
carefully they are guarded. IX, 15.

but also:

Where women are honoured, there the gods are pleased. III,56.

Tulsidas Gosvami-ji has many things to say about women but he is not very keen on them, e.g. Sri Rama Bhagavan says as an explanation why He thwarted Narada Muni's marriage: "A young and wanton woman is the root of all evil, a source of torment, a mine of all unhappiness." Ramacaritamanasa, 3 doha 47.:
Attachment: Image
Madanmohan das - Sun, 18 Dec 2005 03:25:10 +0530
Here's how Rev. Atkins rendered it, Doha 45 in this edition.

The root of all evil, the source of all trouble,
Is woman; thus man is tormented;
I guard my own well, saintly one, these things knowing,
And therefore your marriage prevented.

The Chaupai preceeding it is even more forceful. But the Bhagavat makes it mutually applicable also. There's the sloka of Sri Rsabha;

puMsah striyA mithunIbhAvametaM
tayormitho hRdayagrabthimAhuh/
atho gRhakSetra-sutApta-vittair-
janasya moho'yam ahaM mameti//


The union of man with woman is spoken of
the new knot in the heart, added to the already
existing knot of the ego-sense ( ahamkAra ).
For from that springs the terrible infatuation,
causing the the extention of the sense of identification
consisting in the sense of proprietorship
with regard to home, assets, sons, friends,
wealth and such other things.


Bhag. 5/5/8

Again in the words of Kapiladeva;

Just as a woman is a danger to a man on the spiritual path,
so is a man to a woman.


Bhag. 3/31/41 Swami Tapasyananda's trans.


dhaa - Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:57:51 +0530
Bala Khand?

...I reverence the charming feet of all, who attained Sri Rama even though born in the lowest species. As many worshippers there are of the feet of Raghupati (the Lord of Raghus), including birds, beasts, gods, human beings and demons, I adore the lotus feet of them all, who are disinterested servants of Sri Rama. Suka, Sanaka and others (viz., Sanandana, Sanatana and Sanatkum.ra), sage Narada and all other eminent sages who are devotees of God and proficient in the spiritual lore, I make obeisance to all, placing my head on the ground; be gracious to me, O Lords of ascetics knowing me as your servant. Janaki, daughter of Janaka and mother of the universe and the most beloved consort of Sri Rama, the Fountain of Mercy, I seek to propitiate the pair of Her lotus feet, so that by Her grace I may be blessed with a refined intellect. Again, I adore, in thought, word and deed, the lotus feet of the all-worthy Lord of Raghus, who has lotus-like eyes and wields a bow and arrows, and who relieves the distress of His devotees and affords delight to them.
dhaa - Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:05:39 +0530
http://www.gitapress.org/books/ramayan/131...ar1023_1101.pdf

Uttar Khand

119.1-10

The Vedas and Puranas represent holy mountains; and the stories of Sri Rama, the many glorious mines located in their midst. The saints are the expert minerologists and their penetrating intellect, the pickaxe; while spiritual wisdom and dispassion, Garuda, are the two eyes (surveying the mines). Any creature who looks for it with faith succeeds in discovering the gem of Devotion, a mine of all blessings. I have this conviction in my heart, my lord, that a servant of Sri Rama is greater than Sri Rama Himself. While Sri Rama is the ocean, the wise saints are like the rain-clouds; or (to use another metaphor) while Sri Hari is the sandal-tree, the saints represent the winds (that diffuse its perfume). Devotion to Sri Hari, which is so delightful, is the reward of all spiritual endeavours; none has ever secured it except through a saint. Realizing this whoever clutivates the fellowship of saints finds Devotion to Sri Rama easy of attainment, O king of birds.

120.A-B

The Vedas are compared to the ocean (of milk); spiritual wisdom plays the role of Mount Mandara; while saints are the gods who churn out nectar in the form of the sacred legends; and Devotion represents its sweetness. Using Dispassion as a shield (for self-defence) and slaying with the sword of widsom enemies in the form of vanity, greed and infatuation, it is Devotion to Sri Hari that triumphs; ponder and realize this O king of birds.

123.A

Though vile in everyway, I am blessed, most blessed today, in that Sri Rama has acknowledged me as one of His own servants and therefore vouchsafed to me the fellowship of a saint (like you).

123.4

...Sri Rama, to whom I bow again and agan and yet again. I bow once more to that imperishable Lord by approaching whom for shelter even sinful souls like me get purified.