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Leaving GD -

Advitiya - Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:30:59 +0530
I’m sorry to say that the time has come for me to leave GD. It was not long ago that Madhava posted “Has GD run its course?”

Truer words have never been spoken, or written for that matter. There are people who come online and complain about these websites but then go ahead and take full advantage of all its facilities for personal gain. All together, it has become oftentimes a sickening experience just logging on to this website that has obviously has lost its sense of direction.

The type of subjects being brought up on the pretext of Vaishnavism are demeaning and the type of people using this pretext to manipulate others is getting tiresome.

I hope all those who have become my online friends overtime can understand my reasons for leaving, and I wish you all the best.

Jay Radhe!


Tamal Baran das - Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:35:04 +0530
This is very sad to read.... sad.gif
Madhava - Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:40:47 +0530
While I appreciate everyone's option to participate or not participate at Gaudiya Discussions, I would also appreciate if departures that go with an announcement would contain something specifically constructive on how to improve the forums. Notes such as this just leave me puzzled as to what just happened.

I do not know if there are personal issues behind the opening post of the thread, but notes on individuals taking advantage of the forum for personal gain (what gain?) lead me to think along those lines. Pardon me for reflecting on this in public, but the announcement wasn't private, so here we go.

Posts with as strong content as Advitiya's leave me wondering whether it's me she objects to (as I tried to raise some funds for the Lake of Flowers project), or who the sources of her indignation are. I would suggest that such complaints be made specific, lest one risk many people having grief over the issue, and causing unnecessary grief to others cannot be a good thing for anyone.

For the record, since the thread in August, I personally see that noteworthy improvement has been made. We've had our occasional hiccups, but overall I view the forum as heading in a positive direction. We've seen increased participation from respected members such as Sakhicharan and Kovidara, whom I'd like to commend for their ability to bring in relevant references to enhance the discussions they participate in. We are yet to see the shore of Gaudiya philosophy and tradition to be explored.

I haven't found much time to participate in discussions here during my current stay in Vraja, but I've tried my best to pop in and drop a note or two whenever I've felt I have something relevant to say.
Jagat - Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:34:26 +0530
No doubt this is primarily related to the threads that are discussing sexuality. Since I happen to have a moment or two to kill, I would like to say the following here:

(1) There are basically two rasas--madhura and vira. In our world, these are familiar to us as "sex and violence." These are the most primal instincts in the human being: reproduction and survival.

(2) Being so primal, they produce the most confusion in the living being. Their potential for social disruption is the greatest. This is why their circumscription or even absolute renunciation is often prescribed as an essential element of spiritual life.

(3) Gaudiya Vaishnavism, like many other forms of Hinduism, has a powerful tradition of renunciation, even misogyny.

(4) At the same time, Gaudiya Vaishnava symbolism and mythology is saturated with sexuality.

(5) This presents an acute conflict that has consequences--namely Sahajiyaism and fear of Sahajiyaism. Rupa Goswami therefore says that though this rasa is the widest ranging of all (vitatAGga), he prefers not to describe it with the other bhakti-rasas, because--

* nivRttAnupayogitvAt -- it is unsuitable for the renounced,
* durUhatvAt -- it is (for the above reasons) difficult to understand,
* rahasyatvAt -- it is most confidential (that, of course, is Krishna's business).

In today's society, sexuality is widely discussed. Pornography is practically available on television even to small children. For many young people, sexual activity starts at an early age, and certainly there are few secrets. Though people in pre-modern cultures often were introduced to sexuality at a young age, it is doubtful that they were ever exposed to as much mythology of romance and sexual performance as a means of life fulfilment, as much angst about performance, as much pressure to experience wide and varied sexual activities, etc., etc. This clearly is not the way to spirituality or self-fulfilment.

My time is up and I still wanted to talk about sexuality and Freudian interpretation of symbols and the influence they continue to have in Western societies attitudes. A strong sexual symbolism + repressive attitudes = ? . Though I don't have the time to get into the current discussions in detail, I don't want to dismiss them like Kshamabuddhi did. These are serious considerations, perhaps even the most serious of all, when trying to present Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the West. We have to have an honest attitude to sexuality, to the meanings of Radha and Krishna as images of the Deity, and produce the honest theology that will result from this examination.

Radha and Krishna exercise a powerful force of attraction on us. We love and want to protect them from those who reduce them to mere products of a sexually repressed consciousness, as Freudians would. At the same time, we want to honor the divinity of their love and all the implications it might have for the smoother functioning of human relations and society, which is an essential part of all religiosity.

vijayalakshmi - Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:14:45 +0530
I assumed that "personal gain" was referring to me, as I am often told I have a "preachy" way of speaking which is not conscious on my part. huh.gif Certainly, it's not abnormal to have some conviction when discussing a topic. But I swear I am not trying to lead anyone astray from their path in GV. sad.gif And my participation in the "gross" topic was probably not very clear so I might have come out looking disgusting, I really don't know. She can let me know in a PM... I would rather leave myself than have her leave. I would not have a problem with that, as her contributions here are much more worthwhile than mine.
Advitiya - Fri, 04 Nov 2005 10:43:55 +0530
I realize that my leaving GD has created some confusion to our members on this forum. Yes, this is a very sad situation I have to admit. When I just joined GD, it was almost flourishing. There was so much of enthusiasm, but not any more. That atmosphere is missing and so is the good spirit.

First of all, about the personal gain, I would like to say to Madhava that it has nothing to do with him. I support his efforts to raise donations and I truly hope he will continue all the hard work he is doing.

And it was certainly not meant for those who have responded to my announcement. Whatever I meant by personal gain was indeed intended for a certain individual, and he or she will know without a shadow of a doubt that I am referring to them. I do not wish to open a can of worms by specifying who or what, as this may only cause more trouble than it’s worth.

It is just too sad to see how this website has become a resource for certain individuals to manipulate others.

Secondly, in response to what Jagat had to say about my announcement made me speechless. What does it have to do with my leaving GD? I didn't need a lecture on sexuality, thank you. As for his supposed equation “strong sexual symbolism + repressive attitudes = ?”, all I can say is if there is a need to do an extensive study on these sexual matters, for those who feel so passionate about the subject, by all means please go make a study of it to satisfy your inquisitive natures. There is a time and place for Freudian, sexual explorations, and a website dedicated to the spirit of Vaishnavism is just not the place. I totally agree what Kshamabuddhi had to say in this regard.

(BTW, that’s a lot of interesting writing done for someone who only had “a minute or two to kill”… )

The decision has been made and I think it was the wise and healthy one under the circumstances.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Madhava for his endeavors; he has done a wonderful job at bringing different topics related to Raganuga Bhakti. I would also like to thank Sakhicharan, Kovidara, Vijayalaksmi to carry on with their active participations.

Jay Radhe!
Tamal Baran das - Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:25:35 +0530
All the best in all of your endeavors smile.gif
Kshamabuddhi - Sat, 05 Nov 2005 23:52:33 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Oct 30 2005, 07:04 PM)
No doubt this is primarily related to the threads that are discussing sexuality.  Since I happen to have a moment or two to kill, I would like to say the following here:

(1) There are basically two rasas--madhura and vira. In our world, these are familiar to us as "sex and violence."

Duh, but I thought vira-rasa was about heroism, not violence.
I don't see how you can translate vira rasa as violence.
It's about heroism - not violence.
Kulapavana - Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:28:44 +0530
QUOTE(Advitiya @ Nov 4 2005, 01:13 AM)
I realize that my leaving GD has created some confusion to our members on this forum. Yes, this is a very sad situation I have to admit. When I just joined GD, it was almost flourishing. There was so much of enthusiasm, but not any more. That atmosphere is missing and so is the good spirit.

in this world things change all the time. we are constantly changing as well. I am saddened that I will not be able to read your interesting posts here, but that is just a selfish thought.

all the best to you! drop in from time to time to see if things have changed for the better...
vijayalakshmi - Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:53:14 +0530
Duh, but I thought vira-rasa was about heroism, not violence.

Madhurya also does not translate as "sex."
Advitiya - Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:48:08 +0530
Since this dicussion has been carried on in my posting, let me say few words.

I was as shocked as you all are. I don’t see if there is a need for bringing freudian interpretations here to explain madhura and vira. Our Goswamis explained very well all these rasas and since this is not an intellectual debate those terms could be very well-explained based on whatever Gaudiya resource we have. There is no need for Freudian intellectualization which only caused defamation unless some intellectual here wants to present a thesis on Sexuality.

(I’ll be away for a month due to hospitalization and might just drop by to see upon my return as Kulapavana has requested).
Jagat - Mon, 07 Nov 2005 23:40:52 +0530
Good luck with your operation, Advitiya. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
Kshamabuddhi - Tue, 08 Nov 2005 01:57:14 +0530
QUOTE(vijayalakshmi @ Nov 7 2005, 02:23 PM)
Duh, but I thought vira-rasa was about heroism, not violence.

Madhurya also does not translate as "sex."

So true. I was hoping that i was not the only person on this forum to notice that.
Certainly, Mahaprabhu did not advent himself in Kali-yuga to promote "sex and violence"?

Maybe Jagat has been around the academics at the university too long?
It seems like he has imbibed a little too much of the secular humanist thinking, like this Freudian analysis of the human condition.

Kshamabuddhi - Tue, 08 Nov 2005 09:54:58 +0530
As an afterthought (since I can't edit my posts I have to post again), maybe Jagat's reasoning for attempting to compare madhurya rasa with "sex" and vira rasa as "violence", is his way of rationalizing the open and public preaching of raganuga bhakti and manjari bhava to people who might not have even adopted the most basic and elementary standards of vaidhi-sadhana?
Since all the young people nowadays are into "sex and violence" as found in Hollywood movies, they will naturally be attracted to rasa-lila and the Gokula pastimes of Krishna. If we can show them how rasa-lila and the Gokula pastimes are full of sex and violence, they will take to it automatically?

Maybe I am speculating a little to much now? huh.gif

This post will probably never make it past the moderators anyway.
Many of my posts don't.
rsb - Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:10:56 +0530
Dear Bhaktas,

Dandavat! I'm not aware of the reason behind this loss. But I should add that anything I post concerning "Rupanuga Bhakti" is always deleted and I'm informed that it is a trouble making subject leading to disagreements.

So if Rupanuga topics are banned then what is left? It is like the name Rupanuga Discussions means, "any subject OTHER than Rupanuga bhakti is allowed." It would be good to revert back to "Rupanuga Discussions", come what may...

I can post some interesting items, provided that "Rupanuga" issues are allowed to be posted here.

Jai Gaura!

Hrsikesa das
Madhava - Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:50:08 +0530
The posts you have posted on rupanuga-bhakti have been invariably linked with ISKCON and Prabhupada. We have made it quite clear in our Principles and Guidelines that this forum is not particularly focused on IGM topics, and I have often noted that they are best avoided, most of the time anyway, due to the tension existing between IGM and the rest of the tradition.
Gaurasundara - Wed, 09 Nov 2005 04:02:16 +0530
It seems quite clear to me that Jagat was simply making a generalisation in the context of making a broader point. I don't see what the fuss is about.
rsb - Wed, 09 Nov 2005 10:17:25 +0530

Dandavats. I have tried to offer what little I know. But my experience is within early Gaudiya Maths, and the likes of Akinchan Krishna Das Babaji, Swami Bon Maharaj, Swami Bhaktivedanta Maharaj, Radhacharan Das, Swami Gopanananda, etc., they are my connection to the Rupanuga line. I don't have experience outside those acharyas. My postings (I thought) concerned Rupanuga Bhakti.

I'm not even slightly interested in Iskcon. In fact, except for a few friends I avoid Iskcon. It was not my intention to discuss Iskcon, GM, or any institution.

Sorry for that.