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Gaudiya Discussions Archive » PHILOSOPHY AND THEOLOGY
Discussions on the doctrines of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Please place practical questions under the Miscellaneous forum and set this aside for the more theoretical side of it.

Guru Lakshana - From HBV



Jagat - Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:01:29 +0530
Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.38-40.

• avadAtAnvayaH – He should be born in a spotless (avadAta) family (anvaya). In other words, there should be no scandal associated with the family.
• zuddha – He himself should be without blemish of character.
• svocitAcAra-tat-paraH – He is faithful to his own religious duties, as they have been ordained by his spiritual master.
• AzramI – Though situated in any one of the four classes of Varnashram society, he should be a devotee of Krishna, fully devoted to his exclusive service.
• krodha-rahita – He should be free from anger.
• vedavit – He is a knower of the Vedas.
• sarva-zAstravit -- The guru knows all the scriptures.
• zraddhAvAn. The guru is a man with strong faith.
• anasUyaH – The guru is free from envy.
• priya-vAk – The guru’s speech is endearing.
• priya-darzanaH – The guru has a pleasing appearance.
• zuciH – The guru is pure, both within and without.
• suvezaH – The guru wears the appropriate dress for someone worshiping the Lord.
• taruNaH – The guru is young. In other words, in his enthusiasm to serve the Lord, he is a vigorous as a youth.
• sarva-bhUta-hite rataH – He is engaged in the welfare of all living beings.
• dhImAn – The spiritual master is intelligent.
• anuddhata-matiH – The guru possesses a steadiness of will.
• pUrNaH – The guru is full. In other words, his heart is so full of the wealth of devotion and divine love that he senses no need for the values of this world—profit, adoration or prestige.
• ahantA – The guru is non-violent.
• vimarzakaH – He has good judgment.
• sa-guNaH – He is virtuous, that is, he possesses virtuous like kindness to those who come to take shelter of him.
• arcAsu kRta-dhIH – He is expert and faithful in his practice of worship.
• kRtajJaH – He is grateful.
• ziSya-vatsalaH – He is as affectionate to his disciples as he would be to a son or daughter, and does everything to further their advancement in devotional life.
• nigrahAnugrahe zaktaH – He knows how to both chastise and bestow mercy on his disciples.
• homa-mantra-parAyaNaH – He is devoted to the performance of sacrifice and the recitation of mantras.
• UhApoha-prakAra-jJaH – He is expert in the art of debate.
• zuddhAtmA – His heart is pure, for he is always thinking of Krishna.
• kRpAlayaH – He is a reservoir of compassion.
• garimA-nidhiH – He is as deep as an ocean.
Jagat - Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:31:55 +0530
devatopAsakaH zAnto viSayeSv api niHspRhaH
adhyAtma-vid brahma-vAdI veda-zAstrArtha-kovidaH
uddhartuM caiva saMhartuM samartho brAhmaNottamaH
tattvajJo yantra-mantrANAM marma-bhettA rahasyavit
purazcaraNa-kRd dhoma-mantra-siddhaH prayogavit
tapasvI satya-vAdI ca gRhastho gurur ucyate


A householder can be called a guru if he is engaged in the worship of God, who peaceful, holds no aspiration for the sense objects, and possesses spiritual knowledge. He should know the Vedic mantras and be conversant with their meaning. He should be the best of brahmins, capable of saving or destroying someone. He should know the science of mantras and yantras, be able to discern the essence of a matter and possess esoteric knowledge. He should have performed a purascharan, be perfected in the performance of sacrifices and the mantra, know their various applications. He should be austere and truthful. (HBV 1.42-44)
Jagat - Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:35:07 +0530
Finally, the ViSNu-smRti is cited—

kRpA-sindhuH susampUrNaH sarva sattvopakArakaH
niHspRhaH sarvataH siddhaH sarva vidyA vizAradaH
sarva saMzaya saMchettA nalaso gurur AhRtaH


The true guru is an ocean of mercy, complete in himself, engaged in helping every living creature, without personal aspiration, successful in every way, conversant in all fields of knowledge, able to cut through all doubts, and not lazy. (HBV 1. 46)
Keshava - Thu, 01 Sep 2005 22:12:21 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Sep 1 2005, 02:31 AM)
Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.38-40.

• avadAtAnvayaH – He should be born in a spotless (avadAta) family (anvaya). In other words, there should be no scandal associated with the family.
ETC



I am enjoying reading this. Was it prompted by your exchange at Janmastami with the rtviks?

Considering that all the sastric qualities are open to a certain amount of interpretation I want to suggest that we please point out:

1. Those qualities that are essential.
2. Those qualities that are specific and unambiguous.

The essential qualities need to be clearly defined, and the specific and unambiguous qualities need to be cultivated even if they are not seen as essential.
Hari Saran - Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:44:22 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat)
He should be the best of brahmins, capable of saving or destroying someone. He should know the science of mantras and yantras, be able to discern the essence of a matter and possess esoteric knowledge.


Hare Krishna Jagat-ji,

If you have some extra time would you be kind to explain the meaning of "capable of saving or destroying someone". Does that sound appropriate for a Vaishnava-Guru?

Thanks!
Jagat - Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:52:26 +0530
Like Madhavendra Puri with Ramachandra Puri, or Haridas Thakur with Ramachandra Khan.

There is a good verse in the Bhagavatam, quoted in Madhurya-kadambini (3.8)--

nAzcaryam etad yad asatsu sarvadA
mahad-vinindA kuNapAtma-vAdiSu
serSyam mahA-puruSa-pAda-pAMzubhir
nirasta-tejaHsu tad eva zobhanam

“It is not unusual for the impious, who think the body to be self, to constantly blaspheme the mahats. Though such great souls can tolerate their blasphemy, the dust of their feet does not. As a result, the power of these blasphemers is vanquished. It is indeed proper that such evil persons immediately get the effects of their blasphemy.” (4.4.13)


People named Ramachandra don't seem to fare well in Gaura-lila.
Jagat - Sat, 03 Sep 2005 00:21:26 +0530
The words used in the HBV verse quoted are anugraha and nigraha. The same words appear in CC 3.8.32--

mahad-anugraha nigrahera sAkSI dui-jane
ei dui dvAre zikhAilA jaga-jane

The effects of a great soul's mercy and chastisement are witnessed by these two persons (Ramachandra and Ishwar Puri). Through these two, the Lord taught the entire world.
Hari Saran - Sat, 03 Sep 2005 09:54:16 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Sep 1 2005, 01:01 PM)
devatopAsakaH zAnto viSayeSv api niHspRhaH
adhyAtma-vid brahma-vAdI veda-zAstrArtha-kovidaH
uddhartuM caiva saMhartuM samartho brAhmaNottamaH
tattvajJo yantra-mantrANAM marma-bhettA rahasyavit
purazcaraNa-kRd dhoma-mantra-siddhaH prayogavit
tapasvI satya-vAdI ca gRhastho gurur ucyate


A householder can be called a guru if he is engaged in the worship of God, who peaceful, holds no aspiration for the sense objects, and possesses spiritual knowledge. He should know the Vedic mantras and be conversant with their meaning. He should be the best of brahmins, capable of saving or destroying someone. He should know the science of mantras and yantras, be able to discern the essence of a matter and possess esoteric knowledge. He should have performed a purascharan, be perfected in the performance of sacrifices and the mantra, know their various applications. He should be austere and truthful. (HBV 1.42-44)



Thanks Jagat-ji,

I really liked your reply, however, I do have some concerns about mercy.

"gRhastho gurur ucyate"

In the context of Guru Grihastha, it actually appears that the words (anugraha and nigraha) are employed in support to the full acceptance of a pure householder as genuine (powerful) Guru. Which appeals to the ideal man, who is capable of performing anything for the welfare of his community ; the protector; the guardian; the archetype of a King, as per ser. Which for me, sounds a bit uneasy in the sense that the “mercy” is at risk of being subdued by the laws of duality, consequently, the concept of Patitapavana could be compromised.

However, here is a genuine example of mercy for mercy:

Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu then commanded them, “Sin no more.” Jagai and Madhai replied, “Dear father, no more, not again.” The Lord continued, “Listen, both of you. I have indeed saved you from all your sinful reactions. If you do not sin again, then I’ll destroy all your sinful reactions from millions of births. This is My responsibility. I’ll eat offerings through your mouths, and incarnate through your bodies.” Hearing these words from the Lord, both Jagai and Madhai fell unconscious on the ground in ecstasy. Their illusions thus removed, they floated in the ocean of happiness.

http://nityananda.gaurangapada.com/nc-madhya8.htm
Hari Saran - Sun, 04 Sep 2005 08:55:47 +0530
smile.gif
Hari Saran - Sun, 04 Sep 2005 09:05:49 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Sep 2 2005, 06:51 PM)
The words used in the HBV verse quoted are anugraha and nigraha. The same words appear in CC 3.8.32--

mahad-anugraha nigrahera sAkSI dui-jane
ei dui dvAre zikhAilA jaga-jane

The effects of a great soul's mercy and chastisement are witnessed by these two persons (Ramachandra and Ishwar Puri). Through these two, the Lord taught the entire world.




There was my reaction based on that translation. On the other hand, wouldn’t be better to change the selected word “destroying” for “chastisement”, as purely suggested in the verse above...? A Vaishnava chastise is one thing, but why would he destroy? I think that would probably help to solve my dilemma... rolleyes.gif

Besides, if you can please show any quality in here that matches the characteristics of a Vaishnava Guru, who is out there to destroy someone, rather then save or forgiven, that would be interesting. Moreover, you already suggested it:

• nigrahAnugrahe zaktaH – He knows how to both chastise and bestow mercy on his disciples.


With respect,
Hari Saran Das smile.gif
Madhava - Sun, 04 Sep 2005 14:21:42 +0530
1.41 says, nigrahAnugrahe zaktaH. The very clear and literal translation is, "He is competent to punish and to bestow favor upon."

1.42 says, uddhartuM caiva saMhartuM. The very clear and literal translation is that he can "Uplift, and also to destroy." Harta means to destroy, the prefix saM means that the destruction is rather wholesale in nature.

These are two different elements, two different pairs of words used here, althought Jagadananda seems to have said by an oversight that the words of the former are the origin of the translation of the latter.
Hari Saran - Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:59:34 +0530
Thanks Madhava-ji,

The confusion is that it is had for me to picture a Vaishnava who actually is out there with that dual function, or more specifically, carrier of a destructive power. The most normal vision of a Vaishnava is that he is free from duality, as proposed in his qualities above. It appears that the HBV is trying to infuse some kind of apprehension and reverence towards the persona Guru. Reverence and apprehension that is found in the realm of Vishnu-Tattva, in this way, it is hard to depict Sri Guru as expansion or offshoot of the most compassionate, the sweet One; Sri Radhika.



BDW, thanks for the beautiful work, Jagat-ji.

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Jagat - Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:37:55 +0530
The Guru can make you or break you.
Hari Saran - Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:52:49 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Sep 4 2005, 06:07 PM)
The Guru can make you or break you.



In other words, can you really imagine Srimat Radhika with a flower on one hand and a weapon on the other, like an American cowgirl biggrin.gif

However that sounds a bit better, if you will.

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Madhava - Mon, 05 Sep 2005 00:14:06 +0530
Offending a person with great spiritual prowess will devastate the offender -- whether the sadhu wants it or not. Therefore, he is imbued with the power to destroy. Then again, offending a person without such prowess will not bring about similar repercussions in the eyes of he who wards the sadhus and destroys the inimical, millennium after millennium.
Hari Saran - Mon, 05 Sep 2005 00:28:27 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep 4 2005, 06:44 PM)
Offending a person with great spiritual prowess will devastate the offender -- whether the sadhu wants it or not. Therefore, he is imbued with the power to destroy. Then again, offending a person without such prowess will not bring about similar repercussions in the eyes of he who wards the sadhus and destroys the inimical, millennium after millennium.



I follow both views, however, it just make sense in a sentence that is claiming for the uncommon (super heroic) features of the Guru; Which on one hand, correctly develop those elements of awe in one’s heart.
Jagat - Mon, 05 Sep 2005 04:12:44 +0530
I don't think this is meant in that way. The guru is of course infinitely merciful. And yet Madhavendra Puri reacted viscerally to Ramachandra Puri's arrogance and stupidity.

As long as we are sadhakas, i.e., as long as we are in this body, we must treat the spiritual master with an element of aisvarya bhava. Even in cases where the aisvarya is mixed with other rasas, such as friendship, the guru-disciple aspect of the relationship must have a healthy dollop of aisvarya.

What is the meaning of AcAryaM mAM vijAnIyAt ? The mAm here is the aizvarya aspect of Krishna. It means that we cannot forget vidhi when we are in the presence of the spiritual master.

But here's another important thing to remember--the Vaishnava's punishment is always beneficial to the offender, as in the case of Chitraketu.
Madhava - Mon, 05 Sep 2005 04:19:03 +0530
Indeed, and is also the case of Nalakuvera and Manigriva not famous?
Hari Saran - Mon, 05 Sep 2005 23:59:04 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Sep 4 2005, 10:42 PM)
As long as we are sadhakas, i.e., as long as we are in this body, we must treat the spiritual master with an element of aisvarya bhava. Even in cases where the aisvarya is mixed with other rasas, such as friendship, the guru-disciple aspect of the relationship must have a healthy dollop of aisvarya.

What is the meaning of AcAryaM mAM vijAnIyAt ? The mAm here is the aizvarya aspect of Krishna. It means that we cannot forget vidhi when we are in the presence of the spiritual master.




On the account that you had the Darshan of Pandita-ji, in your most recent travel to Vraja, I will take that as your personal realization. Why I said that? It is simple, it is very easy to repeat the sastra, specially when one has access, however, the words from one’s own realization is what makes it real.

On the other hand, HBV ingeniously instills awe; esteem.

Many thanks for sharing your aspirations and vision, too. smile.gif