Has Gaudiya Discussions run its course? -

I regret to find myself saying this, but the time has come when we need to seriously discuss the future of Gaudiya Discussions and consider the possibility of its coming to an end after its four and half years online.

Despite our best efforts, it seems that the forum has tremendous difficulties maintaining an atmosphere conducive for its aims. While we had hoped to have an oasis of inspiring, enlightening and fulfilling discussions on Gaudiya theology and practices at the feet of Srila Rupa Goswamipad (top left of the screen), it was not the idea that such discussions would be an oasis within the forum. The forum itself was supposed to be the oasis.

Do I come up with this alone? No. In fact, this was brought up by the other moderator who is still somewhat around and participating. The third moderator gets headaches when he thinks about Gaudiya Discussions, and the fourth moderator hasn't been around for ages due to other pressing concerns.

It would have been wonderful if the oasis would have filled with souls thirsty for the nectar we know is out there. Yet, regrettably, the drops of nectar - whenever at times some were sprinkled - were quickly buried under views from the contenders, the discontent, and those who had their eyes on something else they were out to promote.

The sheer fact that topics that cause friction are by far the most active in all respects indicates there is a fundamental problem here. A problem we have worked towards remedying for ages. A problem I begin to suspect is not remediable, but rather an integral aspect of the setup.

This obviously begs the question, is there a valid reason to keep going on like this? Does it merit the sacrifice of time and energy the moderators and administrator contribute on an ongoing basis?

These are some issues that must be faced. If our esteemed audience, and in particular the primary target audience and those who feel the original aims of Gaudiya Discussions are or were close to their hearts have something to contribute, we would like to hear your thoughts on all this.

I think you should try re-instating the ACADEMIC, CONTROVERSIAL section for a while before you shut it down, give it another shot, and strictly limit the discussions that do cause such a sensation to that. Maybe you could get another MOD for that as well who wont get headaches from the topics that disturb them so...

Then the controversial can stick to that section ALONE and the other sections can be strictly Rupanuga Gaudiya...just a thought...

You should go have a look at E-sanga..they accomodate all various schools of Buddhism in their own sub-forums and it seems to work..I'm not saying they are better or worse but they seem to operate on a level that accomodates various outlooks.

But if you want Rupanugas only..then you have some hard decisions here, make it a special membership forum only and not allow others...

or allow others but regulate where they can discuss..


shanti

I have a feeling we're out of options with the current setup. The Academic etc. section wasn't there, and clearly it didn't work. The very fact that some topics are on the same board influence the overall atmosphere.

As we all know, the three primary aims of the forum were the following:


If these goals are to be served, practically I see one avenue worth pursuing. To create a non-public forum with clear and strict criteria on who may read and participate to carry on the legacy of what we once wished Gaudiya Discussions would be, and to create varieties of other educational media for questions and answers and so forth.

As for where the Academic, Eclectic and so forth fall in, I really do not see them in the scope of our aims at all as far as as we are talking about participants who do not have a sense of being committed Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Perhaps there might be another open forum, something akin to what the VNN forums were (I wasn't a member), but I personally wouldn't have the time, the resources or the interest to actively support it in a voluntary capacity.

I'm sorry Madhava-Ji that it isn't working for you and your fellow moderators.

I would be very sorry to see GD go especially as it is the only place online where you don't have to explain or apologise for the fact that you're not part of IGM and here those differences are simply understood.

I am not very shastrically inclined and although I appreciate those contributions I am unable to participate there. The new darshans section seems like a great move forwards.

My interests are almost entirely kirtan based and as I am without a broadband connection I have been unable to share lots of the kirtan that I have.

I do feel that the need is there and even if you do close it someone will feel the need to create something similar.

I do hope however that if you do close the forum that we can still have access to the archive as it is a very valuable resource indeed

Ananga

Personally, I don't think that this forum or any open forum can ever be what you were hoping it could be. The internet is too unnatural and informal to foster that kind of atmosphere.
I think that the internet is a very poor medium for creating the kind of atmosphere that you were hoping for.
A group based on service to a common cause can maybe offer that kind of atmosphere. A forum where devotional service is dealt with in a hypothetical, theoretical or academic approach can never foster the kind of fraternity and love that we all need and want - but rarely every find.



I think the end is near.
May it rest in peace.

best wishes...

As much as I hate to see it go, I think it is probably the best thing to do for your own best interest and probably most of the rest of us who spend too much time on forums and not enough time in seva.

Ananga - If the forum is closed, rest assured the archives will be available. As for the thought that someone will feel the need to create something similar, I can only wish all the best for someone who tries to run an open forum and keep it focused. We've been at it for a bit under half a decade now. Evidently there is a need for people to discuss, and I have no doubt there will be a place where the community of traditional Gaudiyas can meet, chat and discuss topics of interest in a more shielded and conducive environment.

yes, you need a certainly quality that will come at the cost of quantity.
The open forum will always be a place of confrontation, disagreement and disparity - all the things that are hurtful to the devotional creeper.

just close your doors to all but ardent followers of the traditional school.

That might reduce it down to a handful, but then it will gradually grow from there.

Times change, minds change and forums close down.

if you try to maintain a forum for converting IGM types to the traditional school, you will always have disturbance and disruption when other camps come to "expose" or "defeat " you.

Still, all is not lost and I am sure you have made a serious impact on many devotees around the world. There will be fruits from your labors, but it might take time to fructify. Patience is very important in any endeavor we make. You talk about half a decade? Maybe you should think about a more long term approach.................say half a century?

Well, I want to apologize for helping to dilute the mood you were hoping for here.

I think you should keep it a closed forum for the network of traditional GV members and see how that goes. Yes you lose it as a preaching tool, if that's what you were hoping to do. But you have websites already with information to lead those people to you. I think only people who have already embraced tradtional GV should be allowed into the discussion forum. I would hope that the archives could be maintained in a read only format in an open area for anyone to read, including the treasured ACE section. (I get a lot of feedback that those who left last winter and can't access them really miss them as a reference. I treasure them too. Or could those files be moved to GR?)

I would hate to see you give up entirely and lose the function of a place where far flung traditional Vaishnavas gather together and support each other and network.

Perhaps with a smaller circle of people moderating duties would then be so light that it would not seem like a burden.

What if the ACE/IGM section were an opt-in readership only? In other words, those who do not want to read that section can opt not to get permissions to do so. Just a thought.

Human beings bring conflict wherever they go, as proven by the various genocides and wars that go on constantly. It is not unique to forums in general or this forum in particular.

If it does continue in some form, I hope the members will realize that moderating is a tiring job and be more supportive of your efforts. It's easy to be an armchair critic.

Blessed be

Tapati

Generally , I agree with jijaji's proposal...There is OTHER TRADITIONS-Section and people who are not Gaudiya Vaisnavas can share informations or discuss their topics at that section and any topic which is not directly connected with Rupanuga-Vaisnavism should be deleted from other sections.

This is material world and there will always be some disturbances , another views etc. But there are many sincere devotees who would like to associate in this virtual sanga and learn many things from each other , devotees who need help in their understanding of Gaudiya Vaisnavism etc.

Don't go , Madhava ji . No surrender but to Bhagavan!


Humbly

Madhavaji,

Radhe Radhe.

I'm sorry to hear that things have been going south so to speak with GD. Obviously I've not been so involved lately, but I definitely have appreciated many a discussion on here. I have certainly been fortunate to have met Vaishnavas through here and I feel fortunate to have been able to drink from the oaises that are here.

My only request is this. If GD comes to a close, is there a way you can either keep the entire site online just for reference purposes and for contacting fellow members or can you make the entire site into a downloadable file so that our members can take it with them and be able to utilize it as a database for research?

Thanks to the moderators for all their hard work! I truely hope it continues, but understand if it's time for this incarnation to depart.

- NMd

Close it down and do not make the archives available. If someone has questions they should approach someone they have faith in, write a letter and receive their instructions. Everyone giving their bit of advice makes things confusing. These forums are unnatural and not real sanga. Deseminating teachings to unfaithfuls are not productive. The faithfuls that receive instructions receive a lot of other opinions as well that defeats the productive advice and info given.

It is time to move on. There are plenty of books and people who can provide guidence in a traditional way, namely, through correspondence, phone conversation, physical association by visiting someone and pilgrimage to the dhama.

You can set up contacts on a web with basic information on traditional Gaudiya Vaisnavism for those that have questions and so forth. I think that is best.

Adios

I am very sorry to receive this message though presently my reply to this message is being moderated by our friendly moderators whom I have thanked rpeatedly and congratulated for their selfless service providing a forum for all the Sincere Lovers of God.

But it seems the priorities and interests of administrators have taken a different route and so is the result as dissatisfaction and a feeling of nonaccomplishment.

So no one should ever forget this:

AyuH zriyaM yazo dharmaM lokAn AziSa eva ca
hanti zreyAMsi sarvANi puMso mahad atikramaH

(Bhagavata 10.4.46)

"When man mistreats great souls, pure devotees and Rasik Saints, his life span,
opulence, reputation, religion, possessions and good fortune are all destroyed."


Inspite of recent changes, I still wish this establishment every success in their efforts to serve all Vaishnavas, not just Rupanuga Gaudiyas.

May all the staff of GD be continuous recepients of causeless Grace of Radharani.

Thanks for everyone for thoughts and comments. We have also contacted all members who have 10+ posts for their thoughts and comments via e-mail. You may also contact us in private if you don't want to post in this topic.

As for concerns over the preservation of the content of the forum, it would be rather inconsiderate from the side of the administration to not preserve them in case the forum was closed. We do not have the right to wipe off the face of the earth the thoughts people have posted over the years.

I do not perceive a problem in situations where people come for advice and receive replies from multiple participants. As far as the questions concern topics of Gaudiya theology and practice, the answers are there in the shastra and in the end should be no more contradictory and confusing than the shastra itself. As for practices, there is certainly plurality out there, and people ought to be aware of it. How will one be a Gaudiya Vaishnava if he does not have a basic capacity for understanding and reconciling a plurality of practices and approaches within the general framework of what the Goswamis have given?

If there is a problem with regards to inquiries and requests for advice on such topics, the problem is in their absence.

As for Academic, Other Traditions and the such, I honestly believe that people of a feather should flock together instead of squeezing all birds in a single cage. I'll provide a zip-file of the old ACE section for reference in the near future.

I find it honestly quite preposterous for someone to suggest that our feeling of nonaccomplishment and dissatisfaction is due to our not extending a red carpet for maha-maha-bhagavatas who preach different doctrines and seem to inspire people to disregard or treat with contempt the finest ideals of our theology. They may want to consider the possibility that the situation might be different, had they not begun to flagrantly advertise their super-gurus to begin with.

That's a bit of something for everyone who posted thus far.

Radhapada, as always has good points.
My opinion is (although i wanted to write it to You personally) is:

Disciples of SADBM , Sri Krishna Citanya Sastra Mandira open, and as well Lake of Flowers productions, Raganuga.com and Raganuga.org, they are necessity and please keep them open.

Speaking of this Gaudiya Discussions, close them permanently and make please all the spiritually relevant discussions available on some of your other respective websites.I strongly think that there is no need anymore for this type of discussions, as you also pointed out Madhava is becoming all more than real Gaudiya Discussions.
I am more than happy with what i have at the moment, with what are you offering in other places of yours, and i will honestly participate more in your other venues.

Whatever will be the outcome of this, i will still continue to participate, so thank you for sending me message and for being all this years kind Gurubhai, guide and great Friend.

Thank You,

Absolutely correct. Please, dont wipe them off, they are invaluable document for study.

Exactly....., i have to say that i also contributed in a way, because insted to study and participate more seriously, my life took such turn that i will come home (and i am still...) and if i wanted to participate in study forum, i couldn't, because i usually will and i am, still falling asleep in front of my PC, due to being tired from work i do.

So for me is always better to whenever i am at home saturdays and sundays, i come and read through all the interesting topics relevant to my spiritual life.Better to be honest with yourself, and not to fake and pretend like some people i see, your spiritual life.I still folow all the sadhana given to me by Our Babaji Maharaja, as well as my wife, but we can't participate in this Forums totally like we used to do, because of the way we live.

I would be more than happy to ask you if i can get the Zip file you will do.

Again many thanks Madhava from my wife Rati Manjari and myself.

Although I do not have an intellectual approch to the Caitanya Vaishnava path - I have come to appreciate you Madhava and others here - even just for all the labour given. I personally have not felt all that welcomed here and find it hard to participate in a rather hard sanga that I find here. I personally think that this site can continue and florish if we treated each other with real respect and kindness. In this unnatural & somewhat impersonal vechile, we have to be extra expressive of kindness and compassion, understanding, and joy in regards to each other. Which has been expressed here at times, - If we can are willing to meet this challenge individually - which I think is the only challenge here - as Vaishanavas - if we walk our talk in a sincere yet expressive manner - it can continue to be useful......a place many more people would venture to participate in rather than just watch. Otherwise (and rightly so) the best route for sincere folks is what the wise Radhapada informs:


Along with the above thoughts is to have somewhere a place for people to come and have access to peolpe's E-mail addresses - for to develope a relationship of inquirey, etc.
ps: Sincerely wish everyone well and Joy of God!

It would be sad indeed to have these forums die a sudden death. For one thing, out of all the non-IGM GV forums that have started up this one has drawn a respectable number of members and visitors and has stood the test of time so far. I say that the moderators should not be so easily discouraged. I really don't see that the issues they seek to resolve are so formidable. There are a number of different solutions.

In the case of the IGM people that have been involved, this site has accomplished something that had never been done before: Given them exposure to the mainstream GV teachings and culture. So, even if some of them have not been convinced to leave IGM and join us, at least they now know and appreciate those differences in approach and attitude that set us apart.

If the moderators don't have the time or inclination to discipline those who cause so many headaches with their posts, those persons could be restricted to read-only rights until they can demonstrate the ability to behave in a dignified manner. All they would need to do is email what they want to post to the moderating team, who would then decide whether or not to post the material on their behalf and without any pressure to edit a post that is already sitting on public display in some thread.

At this juncture I don't really see myself as a very active participant here, and that has been true for quite some time now. Still, I enjoy the opportunity to blog here when I get the urge and inspiration.

I was musing the other day, when discussing with my sister her daughter (my niece) and son-in-law's struggle to get their fictional novels published, about how in today's world everyone wants to be an author. I don't think that was so true fifty or a hundred years ago. Certainly there were enough literate people around. They just did not have that desire in such huge numbers. The internet has become the media for the masses. All those people who could never get a foot in the door with a publishing house are now able to publish at will on thousands of different websites, including those that they put up themselves.

Communities have sprung up in cyberspace that could not exist otherwise, due to geopgraphic and cultural barriers. The ability to get online along with the universal language of English has provided this new venue. Here we have a community that mixes together various groups that would hesitate to interact off line. After all, how much time do IGM people spend in the mainstream community and vice versa?

I encourage the moderating team to contact me by email for advice on how to proceed. I believe I have some ideas that they will find useful.

*edit*

I think that your websites:

http://www.raganuga.org/

http://www.raganuga.com/

should be your real tool for getting out your message.
they are very nice websites and a lot more attractive and attracting than is the forum which has a history of getting ugly at times.

You might want to do more in the way of webcam and voice chat on Yahoo messenger with persons that become interested in your offerings.

I webcam and voice chat with my wife in the Philippines regularly. It doesn't cost anything for someone who already has a computer at home.

There is even group voice chats that can be put together.

Myself, I am not feeling myself moving towards the traditional schools.
I am forever a Saraswata, but there are many people just coming to Gaudiya Vaishnavism that might prefer the traditional schools.

Dandavats to all of you.

While reading the Bhagavatam I always enjoyed how the word wonderful was used. The common modern english use of the word wonderful is usually equated with something nice. But the literal meaning is actually "full of wonder" lending neither partiality towards good or evil. Similary this internet is a wonderful thing. At our finger tips we have access to hundreds of hidden treasures and treatises. Within mere minutes we can quote whole passages from any remotely accessible sastra and even a good deal of the obscure titles that some of our most esteemed lineage had to labor many miles on foot to relish. We also have knowledge of many different bona fide gurus and the ability to take in a general view of their teachings in a single setting. And with this we can then very easily sit in the comfort of our own home and engage in discussions with many other devotees from all over the world. To a conditioned soul like me all of this is very wonderful.

But this can be problematic as witnessed here. Now without much meditation we can easily quote slokas and we can easily find some sort of information about another's guru or godbrother. Some of these verses we cite have never been reconciled between even the most esteemed acarayas! Some have meditated on the import to such slokas for many years and have not been able to give a universally acceptable purport to all the branches of the wonderful Caintanya Tree, or even to those in one single twig of said tree. Even 25 years ago it could've never been conceivable to have such information, verbatim, at instant recall.

And we are well aware of how contradictory the scripture are or may appear. So That which we may not agree with or (god forbid) don't understand, we must be very tolerant of. More than ever we must be tolerant of others for this is an extremely volatile time. But that intolerance is very conspicuous here where it should be amongst the first places to be absent from.

We are supposed to be Vaisnavas! But to the casual outsider I am sure we appear no different from anyone else. The false ego is just as present here as anywhere. Disrespect, fault finding, lack of self control, anger & incompassion are heavy here, even if they are disguised by flowery words. So what hope is there if we cannot even be civil with each other? We are supposed to be friends to all, yet we cannot even be friends amongst ourselves? We are supposed to be humble and not expect respect, but then why are we so quick to bicker?

Until these things can be more subdued, what is there to speak of having a nice relishable atmosphere to express the esoteric aspects of Rupanuga Vaisnavism or relish the mellows of Radha-Krsna?

Everyone on here commands my respect. I always think that I am so fortunate that daily I can come here and find something that inspires me to try and capture Krsna's lotus feet. Through it all I see the sincerity is there in every single one of us to also trying to awaken our spontaneous devotional service in one way or another. And that gives me hope even in my darkest hours.

There are some out there that are not fortunate to have any association. Some of our brothers and sisters go out daily on kirtan, alone with only a mrdanga drum. There are some who have never been to a temple, never observed a ratha yathra festival or gazed upon a beautiful deity, but somehow or other chant hard and steadfast every single day hoping to taste prema. So let's not misuse our good fortune that we have here! If that involves holding our tongues more often, and if that involves being extremely tolerant of others who may make offenses towards the things we hold more dear than our very selves, then that is our duty if we are to make any sort of tangible advancement here.

In the grand scale of things having all this information at our fingertips is a good thing. But until we have surrended fully to our guru and until we have implicit faith in Lord Sri Krsna, what use is all this knowledge if we cannot even peacefully assemble together? This knowledge is supposed to eradicate the very things that are bringing about the demise to this forum.

So let us exercise extreme tolerance, let us forget about the respect we think we demand, and let us cast aside our many ideological differences for the time being to let us just enjoy a humble assocation and a peaceful atmosphere where Krsna is the center. Then maybe after this is established we can be a bit more ambitious to see where Krsna might desire to take us.

All glories to those on here whose beliefs closely resemble mine, all glories to those here whose beliefs contradict mine, all glories to those here who consider me a friend, and all glories to those on here who consider me an enemy or a fool. All glories to every single one of you because of your faith in Radha and Krsna, which is the most auspicious thing in all this creation.

Your Servant,
Jason

forums many times result in something like shown in this picture.

I very much appreciate the well thought out response of Ram Das ji. I am literally shocked to know this kind of thought is coming to your mind to close down GD. I feel that GD has achieved a tremendous success in spreading the message of Sriman Mahaprabu with actual Gaudiya flavour. And I will be quite disappointed if it is closed.

I personally feel Madhava it is arrangement of Mahaprabhu to use you as instrument to reach more devotee through this virtual sangha. And if you are given qualities to achieve that you should not restrict yourself for external distraction.
I feel after your corrective action to keep GD on track this is functioning pretty well. See how it has changed the wrong conceptions of how many devotees and I can see number is growing day by day.

Prabhu JagadBandhu sundor once told to his beloved young friend Srimad Ram Das Babaji to whom he was acted friend, and guide in his early devoitional career :

"Dakh rami (Ram Das shortened as raami) tui to braje jaoar janya chotphot korchis"

("See Rami you are getting restless to go back to braja" )

"Kintu boner posu-pakhi o to nijer khabar jogar korte pare , kintu je onnya ke khaiye e khay sei prakrito manush"

("Even animals and birds of forest can arrange their own food, but those are consider real human being who feeds other along with himself ")

And when Ram Das babji first saw Srimad Radha Raman Charan Das babaji in SriDham Nawadwip this instaructed started ringing to his ears "This is that human being, who relishes the rasa with all other after make that available them".

So I think Madhava you are on right path, so please continue to do so and change the life of thousands.

I personally started feeling inspiration to keep some of my time available for translation of my belongings and make it available to others through GD, this is the success of GD.
If some of the moderators feel tired and want to take rest why we can't think to introduce some more moderators on rotation basis. I am sure some other learned members can give much more valuable suggestions.

And this is my sincere pray to all the moderators not to tell any "senior gaudiya Vaishnavas" to look for another forum if they do not agree with some conclusions. I agree that you have the right to tell this to other member of different sampradaya to keep GD on track and to stop propaganda against our community.

Hope I am not making too much noise.

Jay Nitai

Dasanudas

Jason - you are right - this would then become a vechile for our upliftment and developement of Vaishanava qualities. That is ever worthwhile!

And dasanudas's suggestion of rotation of moderaters..... this is a great challenge for allof us - everyone.

Jai Radhe!
This forum saved my life.
I am so thankful to Sriman Madhavanada Das all the participants and especially the moderators for making this place such an ocean of information and instruction to me. After leaving my previous religious association, I was bereft of real sanga and especially Traditional Gaudiya Vaisnava Sanga. In the face of its possible disappearance, this unworthy novice wants to say that I hope I have been a positive member and on a different note, I have been at times shocked at the uncivility and sarcasm in some of the conversations. It has come out against senior sadhakas as well as junior. It has been the only thing to marr the flawless surface of GD to me. I can't help but feel that it contributed to a deterioration of the quality and participation, yes?
Anyway, if it is to go, and it your wish, please be merciful and pm me your email and address so that I can continue to ask stupid questions and make a little progress in Bhajana.
Your Servant,
with all respect and humility for all the saintly devotees here,
Franz Manfredi

I just started to get on this forum. I find it incredibly interesting and I've written a few people through it and received some really uplifting and honest replys. I haven't posted much because I'm still pouring through the old postings.

This site makes me think. There are so many people on this site that I would love to have regular email contact with and continue to ask my questions to. I wouldn't want to lose that associaiton. I feel like I'm learning a lot here just by reading and "catching up".

Should this site close, I would love for any/everyone to send me there email addresses and names so that I can keep in touch.

I really think that Madhava and Rasaraja do a nice job!

dasanudas,

Jason (ahimsa16@pamho.com)

There are some inevitable and obvious conclusions: If GD closes down, it is going to be missed because it filled a need; and if it continues, it continues to polarize some, unite some, and leave some uninterested. People are different, and have different needs. I think the objectives of GD are highly idealistic, ideals which words alone cannot realize. And we are dealing here only in the plane of words (well, some photos and videos sometimes).

In a devotional perspective having GD closed down brings the advantage of a daily surge for the dreadful experience of the fact that we are spread out over the world without much contact with each other, an experience which is covered up by this daily offered ability to spend some time together in this virtual space. For moments of writing and reading the illusion of a togetherness is created, the illusion that each and everyone counts for the others in some way, even if opinions and expressions thereof seem to contradict, to intervene, to disturb. I think those are judgements, based on the luxuruy of a perceived fata morgana of an oasis which is still far away for the caravan (of camels and donkeys?) to reach.

As another option I would suggest that you divide GD into several sections. The top section is the one which you, Madhavaji want to create with topics corresponding to your ideals with input of contributors of your choice. Make it a hidden forum open only to initiates of raganuga gurujis, and even those select in as far as useful in terms of meaningful contributions for the subjects and topics concerned. Maybe you are the only one creating a thread once in a while. Then, periodically, every one or two weeks, or once a month, you publish that content (further edited if you like) on the open GD. In the section below that top one, those with an interest and a qualification for inquieries have access, can open threads refering to your input, can ask questions, discuss, share insights refering to your posted threads. Meanwhile you continue on your hidden forum with the preparation of other threads, perhaps also in response to some of the queries that have come up in the wider GD space. Qualifications of access to the second level from top is a proven respectful conduct.

On the third level with access to everyone you place forums of general interest. This is the place to qualify for being upgraded from newcomer to general participant, and downgraded from there if conduct is not conforming to the rules.

I think some rigidity is inevitable. You know, we tend to fall for the illusion that this is all democratic and everyone has the same rights as everone else. But this website is a private enterprise, and therefore follows other criteria than mere democracy would suggest.

On another note, what I wished that was included more is the sharing of experiences, which could take place in the second layer. I mean bhakti is a process of practice along with experience, it is not only a heap of books and teachings to be quoted and followed, but from the first moment onward of engaging in this practice of bhakti there are experiences happening. I'd like to see them, not discussed, but shared. They could be organized under different sections such as "Japa support group" (braja mentioned this once), "darshan-insight", "experiences in the dham" etc. If there is an element of awkwardness involved in revealing what is going on in oneself, it could be encouraged to send in letters to an editor who then quotes these letters anonymously. With such meaningful and significant content, an atmosphere of mutual respect is automatically created, and the whole GD site gets an appropriate reception.

Very Insightful!


A very good idea.
Also, Jayf had really good points about conduct.
2 more cents...

I agree with some others that the express goals of this site are evidently a bit out of touch with (thankfully, for disaffected souls like me!) the intrinsically anarchistic nature of the internet. Perhaps a closed message-board or mailing list type forum such a Yahoo groups for the inner circle would be more practical?

The other facet is that many who have come into contact with and appreciate Gaudiya Vaisnavism, whether they consider themselves followers or not, are often naturally inquisitive people inclined to think outside of the prescribed box. Thus, the diffuculty in keeping the train of collective thought within the forum focused on the administrative goals (I am not surprised at the frustration of the moderators as it must take a phenomenal amount of energy to do this!).

But these diverging views are indeed what I find so compelling about this site, and keeps me coming back; I often learn something, directly or indirectly, whether I agree or not. That's why I also think to bring back ACE would be nice, though I know that won't happen .

But alas, all created things must end. As described in the 'critical mass' hexogram of the I-Ching, pretty much everthing sooner or later becomes completely weighted down by virtue of internal and external forces, and must change or disintegrate. Om shanti, shanti, shantih

The issue here at GD has been one that has existed for quite a while, and not to sound condescending but I think the old adage of ‘you want your cake and eat it to’ applies here somewhat. In others word you want the best of both worlds, you want an online community of ‘Traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas’ and have also at the same time allowed individuals from other diverse backgrounds and religious affiliations who hold different conclusions than yourselves to be members and participate

However you want the discussions to remain within certain parameters that fit within your spiritual ideals and objectives’ being ‘Traditional Gaudiyas’. Now of course if various types are allowed to flock here who have varied opinions when certain topics arise they will voice their opinions and indeed they can get heated as the opinions differ, that is part of life here or anywhere, especially online.

It is easy to say that some of the participants are not acting in a ‘dignified manner’ as Mina put it, but that undignified manner is all according to perspective. I have to point out in all fairness that frequently the MODS themselves have expressed themselves in a not so ‘dignified manner’ with expressions of anger, rudeness and seemingly trying to make those who disagree with their conclusions look like utter fools or idiots and have the final say so and last word on subjects. In fact I have seen this more frequently as of late.

If you want an ‘Open Forum’ with people who think differently, then people have to learn to debate properly and not let different opinions affect them so much. Of course all must adhere to certain behavior. Not everyone can be at the same place spiritually, we are all seekers on the path on various levels and all have questions and disagreements, you even see that with those who hold the same conclusions.

Here we see the Moderators even disagree, I have seen some of the ‘Traditional Gaudiyas’ here have some of the most intense ‘rock em sock em’ flame wars I have ever seen (Advaita & Jagat) as well as some of the other ‘Traditionals’ so don’t think that making it a ‘Private Club’ only you will stop all disagreements and debates. They will be less indeed, but of course there will be less people to debate.


shanti

PAMHO. Dear Madhavaji, i bealive if this space called "gaudiya discussions" is for all mod to gaudiyism, i learned very much reading the all topics in this page, i only read for learning bhut i dont have nothing for give, i am very neofit and all you are my masters, thanke you and i hope that you can continue in this work.
Ekesuara das.

For what my humble opinion is worth, I think it would be a terrible shame if this forum closed. I understand the frustration of the moderators. But this forum serves a real need to educate people.

I joined this forum because it's a place where I feel confident that I can ask all of my questions about Gaudiya literature that I wouldn't feel comfortable asking anywhere else. I find that when I ask these types of questions, or read others who ask them, they are answered extremely well! This forum has opened my mind tremendously.

Personally, I have tons of questions about raganuga bhakti, and I'm sure I'm not alone. If you decide to close this place down, I would be really really grateful if some other type of forum could be created where people could come to continue to learn about raganuga bhakti and the literature and traditions of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Even if you decide to give up on an open forum, I hope you will not give up trying to educate others.

We really need your help!

www.krishnapremonmaada.com

If you are really closing down GD, feel free, everyone to come to the above forum.

Rupanugas welcome.

Everybody's welcome.

The administrators will even make a huge Raganuga/Gaudiya vaisnava section - as the site is, as of now, unaffiliated (and needs an extensive tune-up)

Sincerely,
Vijaya

It is a nice forum indeed and should have been put to better use, I guess now is the time hey?

count me in..

It's very nice to get input from those who have spent time reading and posting on this site but ultimately, Madhava, you will have to decide if your time spent keeping this forum up is in keeping with your devotional goals.

I think it is a good forum and I have appreciated the association of all the sadhakas here. I don't personally have the time to spend on such an endeavor and I really appreciate all the efforts you have taken.

I guess I may have to get my finn association through work (we have a new CEO who is Finnish) and through my Gurudeva's disciples who hale from the same geographic locale as your good self.

For what it is worth I think that this site is serving a purpose and that your efforts are appreciated by many. Jijaji is right that controversy will be there wherever people gather, even if they are 'like minded'. You will have less controversy, but it is unavoidable in this material world. I personally think that controversy serves a purpose and allows people to grow. It also serves a function to have the purva paksin in the discussions. That is the way of Vedanta and I see no reason why we should assume that Gaudiya Vedanta should be any different.

Please keep the archives. Much of my own posts and translations here are the only copies I have.

Must admit the novelty of the internet is wearing off.

kabe zrI caitanya more karibena dayA/
kabe Ami pAibo vaisnava pada chAyA//
kabe Ami chAribo viSayAbhimAna/
kabe visnu-jane Ami karibo sammAma//
galavastra kRtAnjali vaisnava nikaTe/
dante tRNa dhari dARAibo niskapate//
kAndiyA kAndiyA jAnAibo dukha grAma/
saMsAra anala haite mAgibo vizrAma//
zuniyA AmAra dukha vaisnava ThAkura/
AmA lAgi kRSNe Abedibena pracura//
vaisnavera Abedane kRSNa dayAmaya/
e hena pAmara prati h'bena sadaya//
vinodera nivedana vaisnava caraNe/
kRpA kari' sange laha e akincane//

When will Sri Caitanya have mercy on me?
When will I gain refuge at the feet of a vaisnava?
When will I eschew the ego-sense of wordly enjoyment?
When will I entertain high regard for the voteries of Visnu?
I shall come before the vaisnava with palms folded in supplication,
a cloth about my neck, a straw betwixt the teeth, with utmost sincerity.
Weeping all the while, I shall aquiant him of my greif,
and beseech him to relieve me of the wordly conflagration.
Thus heeding my woes, the vaisnava thakura will, on my behalf,
submit a petition to lord Krsna with deep attention.
Krsna, being always favorably disposed to grant the petition
of a vaisnava, will then be propitious to such an iniquitous man.
Vinoda's submission at the feet of the vaisnava is,
kindly take this destitute in your good company.

I saw this topic before I received the email (funnily enough) and I have some mixed thoughts about this topic.

First of all I would like to thank Madhava for being a good friend and a most knowledgeable and educated person who has made a TREMENDOUS effort to spread the message of Sri Caitanya, and also increasing and bettering my understanding of Gaudiya siddhanta in many many ways. Truly, what is available on this forum is not available anywhere else. This really IS an oasis, I hugely enjoy coming from work and going online to this forum to read some katha and latest discussions. I really don't know what I would do if this forum closed down as there is nothing like it and there is nowhere else to go.

In this way I firmly agree with the views of Nabadip and Ramdas. It may be that GD needs to go through another evolutionary phase as we have been through several evolutionary phases already since the 'Raganuga' days, and they have suggested some good ideas. There is certainly no harm in redefining our goals (if necessary) in order to make this forum come more closer to its original intention, but I think that the idea to close down this forum altogether is an extremely bad one.

Moreover, I am more shocked at some of the views I have read in preceding pages which seem to indicate an attitude of acceptance that GD is "breathing its last breath" and so on. I don't see how GD is on its last legs, I don't see how at all. Regardless of the level of participation of some of our more senior members, there is still more than enough to chew over when reading enlightening threads such as the ones opened by Madhava and Jagat. And I always find myself reading something in the archives, there is just TOO much to read and little or none has been understood and/or mastered. With all due respects, you should not think that your efforts are ignored or going to waste, or otherwise unappreciated, because I for one genuinely appreciate much of what I read here even though I may not voice my appreciations so often.

Again with due respects, the moderating team are far too easy-going for their own good. A lot of the problems that occur can easily be resolved if more of a 'hardline' approach was taken. This includes immediate deletion of posts that offer nothing more than "hee hee", sarcastic and otherwise insulting comments or silly pictures, "innocent" questions or points that have an (obvious?) agenda (especially from individuals who have a history of creating friction), strong urging to read previous topics if the questions have been brought up before, and so on. I don't know what Madhava's situation is, but as I understand the way forums work he has to pay out of his own pocket for the extra bandwidth that is being used when people access this forum, refreshing pages and so on? If that is so, then it becomes plainly obvious that such negative contributions should not be allowed no matter how "humorous" they are and whatnot.

If there are some things that are intolerable or borderline intolerable (such as promotion of 'supergurus' as Madhava put it), then enough effort should be made to prevent such posts from occurring. Politely inform such people that their views are more or less unsuitable for this forum, and if such prompts are ignored that be more stronger. If this forum is said to be for Rupanuga Gaudiyas then there should be more of an emphasis on Rupanuga Gaudiya material being allowed. I find it mind-boggling that some suggest the re-opening of the 'Academic' and other sub-forums when they were one of the biggest causes of friction on this board.

In fact, I feel that much of the problems could be avoided if people bothered to heed the warnings and notices given out by the moderating team every so often on a variety of issues. De-facto refusal to follow such warnings, especially when said warnings are repeated every so often, just betrays the individual's lack of basic manners and decency.

If some or all of the approaches mentioned above are followed and the moderating team receive chidings about "fascism" and so forth, then that is really the problem of the chiders. There are times when you just have to be tough.

And as for flame-wars, they are childish and silly. No one enjoys reading them, and no one should bother contributing to them especially if they revolve around personal issues, which should be waged in private. There is much more to add along these lines but the general point that I am making is that there are things that definitely need to be continued and there are other things that need to be stopped with no compromise.

Something that I read from Madhava lately made me think:


This is actually what I have been crying for! My only regret is that I do not have that much material at hand to enliven everyone here with, so I can only rely on what is handed out by those who have. So the only thing that I can say is that I would definitely like to see more, MUCH more, of these types of topics. I believe that, according to what Madhava says, this is what this forum was created for and this is what we all should be doing. And I have been patiently waiting for this to take place. I was hoping that this stuff would come out during our "caturmasya-vrata", so to suggest instead that this forum should close is very shocking and upsetting.

As I said earlier, there is no harm in GD undergoing yet another phase in its evolution. I admit to being uncomfortable when this happens, especially with talk of closing off sections only for the 'inner circle' (I guess I am just jealous and greedy for everything ), but evolution is something that fosters growth and is thus something that occurs naturally.

But I am very emphatic that GD should NOT be closed down. The Internet would definitely be losing one of its most valuable jewels, as there is no other like it at all anywhere. Madhava's revered guru also says that "internet is a very powerful media". I have made some great friends here and there are always more to be made. This is not just a forum, this is a community. These are just some of the ideas that I have circulating in my head now, sorry if they cause offence to anyone.

Perhaps you have to think of it like sadhana. Your average sadhaka may have difficulties in the beginning stages of bhajan. He needs to work on his practice so that it slowly becomes perfect and he thus reaches 'perfection'. In more or less the same way, GD has been doing bhajan for "only" four-and-a-half years [], and has a long way to go before reaching 'perfection'. It just needs to be stuck at, and it can be done. Just work at removing the 'anarthas'.

Great note Gaura.

Jay nitai

Again, thanks for everyone for their valuable comments. At least this topic got people thinking and writing, if nothing else. Indeed if it is another evolutionary phase we're looking at, well, that is certainly a possibility. Some thoughts on the suggested alternatives.

First, there was the multi-access scenario, where the rupanuga etc. topics were the last, hidden area, and the free-for-all type was the first. This distinctly reminds me of a scenario where someone is cast to an ocean of sharks, of which he'll have to swim upstream to reach a pond of clear and sweet water. Perhaps one in a ten would make it. I believe this is out of question.

The other option is in taking a harder line in weeding out elements we feel are not conducive to the ideals we seek. This would have been the road I'd have taken already a while back, had it not been for some people who come here with an attitude of fight for your rights, rather than appreciating the fact that we are offering a free service and investing substantial amounts of our free time for the same. Heck, we even got compared to China and North Korea. If some folks indeed want us to feel obliged like a democratic government, then let's see some obligations from the citizens, too. Citizens also have obligations, in following state laws and in paying taxes, and so forth. With the obligations come the rights. I'd define the citizen obligation here as a wholehearted endeavor to work towards the goals we have set. If we do not see a persistent endeavor from the "citizen" towards furthering the said aims, whatever rights and a sense of democracy may be there are nothing but a courtesy we extend of our own free will, and once that free will no longer feels inclined due to a disbalance between demands and positive contribution, the said rights just do not exist any longer. Perhaps that is the corporate approach that is called for. View the individual in terms of his profitability in the corporate scheme.

The quote from me Gaurasundar repeated is one of two occasions where I've brought up my frustration concerning the balance of content onboard. What has left me disheartened beyond that feeling of frustration is the fact that hardly anyone cared enough to even comment. In terms of volume of posts, I am by far the most voluminous writer onboard with a few post short of 9000. I do not assess or vouch for their quality, you read and see if any of it is any good. When I find that people do not seem to care enough to say a word (oh wait, I think one person replied to one of those posts), it makes me wonder whether I should bother.

With regards to extending kindness and compassion, I heartily agree with the thought. There have been some earlier discussions where members have expressed how everyone is what they are, and therefore should have the right to express themselves in accordance with their nature. Yes, that may be there. I would however like it if the said members thought, "If I was in a room full of Vaishnavas, would I say the same?" And if not, then how is it any different if the same is put in writing both on a board full of Vaishnavas and as a matter of public record.

That's again a bit of something on what everyone has said since my last post.

Lately I am liking the two tiered approach we have tried over at GR, where we have the wild, untamed atmosphere in the unmoderated section and we can refer or even move troublesome posts or topics down there. It actually doesn't see much use, but is there when needed. Then no one can say we don't give them any freedom, we can split off discussions if they get too wild, x rated or heated, and keep the original discussion going in the top portion.

Since one has to be a full member (with a profile) to get the password, it doesn't represent us to guests reading our forum. Since one has to make an effort to go there, anyone desiring the more peaceful and respectful vibe of the main forum can just not go there or not ask for the password in the first place. Our moderating work has dropped considerably. (Plus starting out with a zero-flame-war tolerance policy really set a tone, fascist that I am.) I also set it so no one can even see the topic titles, so they don't distract those who don't want to read that section.

So it would be sort of the reverse of Nabadip's idea, with people going into the forum proper and funneling down the miscreants--or at least their posts.

People will always be curious and drawn to flame wars just like they look at car accidents as they drive by. So nip the flame war in the bud. I think you have often been too nice, and when you do finally reach the end of your rope you cut off discussion completely which frustrates those who wanted to politely discuss things. Delete or move the troublesome posts and deal with the offenders before closing the topic. By all means, ban people who just won't get into the spirit of your forum or at least support it with their behavior.

I really think GD should stay alive in some form or another as I see it serves a valuable purpose. I agree that you should have some kind of moderator rotation. And why not open up to donations for your time and trouble and bandwidth? Other forums do this. The only reason I don't is that my web/domain is free since I work for an isp. Once I was past the initial outlay I don't have ongoing expense unless I have a problem and utilize my consultant.

If you don't have others you can rotate moderating duties with, take time off every now and then and set the forum to read only for a couple of weeks or a month. Everyone deserves a vacation.

Madhavaji,

If somebody appreciates one of your posts, but doesn't feel he has something worthwhile to add, he (or she) might:

1. Not post a response, thus leaving you feeling that your post is unappreciated.
2. Post a substandard response, distracting readers and detracting from the level of discussion.
3. Post a one-line "Me, too" or "Thanks" response.

However, in the past, board moderators have discouraged each of the above three types of response. So some may feel that it is a "no-win" situation.

Also, humble (or shy) Vaishnavas will probably often be reluctant to contribute, either unsure that their contributions will be worthwhile, or uncomfortable sharing intimate realizations and questions.

This means that in a forum like GD, I suspect you are missing out on the "vast middle" of potential contributions. The advanced folks who are confident that they have something worthwhile to say will post, and the not-at-all-advanced folks who just like to "stir the pot" or "get attention" will post. But you will often lose out on the contributions from the junior-but-aspiring-to-advance sadhakas.

What can be done about this? I don't know. If the forum isn't public, it will be harder to attract (or even identify) potential new members who can enrich the discussions -- though the quantity of discussions will diminish. But if the forum is public, and the quantity of discussions is maintained, it is probably unavoidable that the quality of discussion will suffer.

How to proceed? That depends on the forum administrators' priorities, I suppose.

Thank you, Vamshidas, for your response, thoughtful as always.

With regards to people expressing their appreciation for a post, that certainly isn't forbidden - to the contrary! However, if people do that, it would be great if it was more than one of those one-liners. It shouldn't be too hard to put together a paragraph of four or five sentences, starting with the thanks and taking the time to tell why the answer was helpful, how they discovered something new or saw how the pieces of the puzzle fit together. To hear of someone discovering something new enriches the worlds of everyone, tells of the great potential there is in our wonderful tradition.

The kinds of cheering responses we expressly discourage against are those coming in a situation where there is a debate going on, and someone posts to express how he is siding with one of the two and possibly puts down the other while he's at it. I believe most occasions we've encouraged against cheering comments have been such.

As for what the "junior-but-aspiring-to-advance sadhakas" would be posting, I would suppose topics that are relevant to them? As they enter the world of Gaudiya siddhanta and bhajan, I'm certain there are myriads of new issues they encounter, new doors they open, finding something enriching their lives. Why should they not post of that? Perhaps they've read an inspirational passage in a book, and they could cite of it and tell how it touched them or how they found it relevant. Or, they could post a question or two about a matter that isn't entirely clear to them.

Does that make any sense?

Yes, "everyone is what they are." But, for a humble Vaishnava, isn't that a problem to be overcome, rather than an ideal to be maintained?

Certainly there is individuality in spiritual life, both in the perfected state and as a sadhaka. But the nature of discussion (and community) in a group sharing the same basic ideals will be far different than in a group with widely varying ideals.

I suppose the forum administrators have a difficult task in deciding just how broad the circle of "shared basic ideals" must be. Should you restrict it to:

1. Anyone who cares to post here, as long as certain norms aren't violated?
2. Anyone who self-identifies as a Gaudiya Vaishnava?
3. Those who aspire to traditional (i.e. non-Jagadbandhu, non-Kripalu, non-IGM, etc.) Gaudiya Vaishnavism?
4. Those who aspire to the doctrine and practice of one particular parivar?
5. Those who have made a formal commitment to one particular parivar?
6. Those who have advanced somewhat within one particular parivar?

I wonder whether one helpful strategy might be to establish a "Q&A" service for those who aren't yet within your circle of "shared ideals." People could submit questions that wouldn't even need to appear on any message board, and then the forum administrators could either point inquirers to existing content or could answer their specific questions.

This way, people wouldn't clog up the forum with inappropriate questions/comments, yet they could still have their questions answered. Some of these people, once satisfied with the answers, might then be appropriate new members for the forum.

A good criteria for assessing whether to post or not to post is to think, "Would I speak this aloud if I was in a room full of Vaishnavas?" Visualize yourself there, say what you're about to post, reflect on and observe their reactions.

Regarding "just how broad the circle of "shared basic ideals" must be" from one to six in the above list, I'd say from three upwards. I believe that is the direction we must take for the future, and keep a stricter line with the policy

The Q&A project is already on the to-do list.

If it's the first two of Vamsidhari's post then I can remain a member. If you include the third then, obviously, I and I suppose many others will no longer be welcome. Do as you see fit. May Nimai Pandit bless you in all your endeavors.

I was thinking of that today on my walk out on the fields. I would perhaps draw the bottom line membership criteria as "those, who are sympathetic and respectful towards trad. Gaudiya Vaishnavism". What that practically implies is something that will have to be thought of in good time. I do understand that there are people who may not, for one reason or another, "aspire" to be trad. Gaudiyas themselves in the sense of formalizing a diksha or a siksha relationship with a contemporary sadhu, but nevertheless feel that among them there is a wealth of wisdom and inspiration to be gained.

I would just like to add, that I really think that the frustration that Madhava is feeling over the apparent lack of success or results from this forum and his websites is a little bit unnecessary.
This forum has 199 members.(probably the biggest memberhsip of any Vasihnava forum) Most of them do not post regularly, but if you look at the whos online of this forum you will see that there is most always at least 8 t0 20 people viewing this site at any given time.
It is my observation that really this forum rules the world of Gaudiya Vaishnava forums.
I think your success is coming - slowly but surely.
I think you are maybe wanting too much in the way of immediate results and not prepared to wait out the long haul for the harvesting of the fruit.

Somebody needs to take Madhava by the shoulders and shake him a little and say
"what to hell is wrong with you?, your forum is the king of the hill!"

I don't know what you want Madhava.
Rome wasn't built in a day.
You want to conquer the Gaudiya world in in 5 years?
It might take a little longer than that.

I think your forum is very popular and making a big impact on the western Gaudiya society.

Forget about Jagat and the other moderators that might not be as supportive and helpful as you would like. You are the real mastermind behind this forum and everybody knows it.

Just because some of your moderator buddies and some of the other "traditionalists" aren't as cohesive and supportive as you would like them to be, that does not mean that you should get disappointed or frustrated.

I think this forum is very popular and growing all the time. I don't see that frustration and disappointment is at all called for.

Just be patient and tolerant. Keep pushing ahead despite all odds and then someday you will start to see some fruit of all your dedication and service.

This topic has strengthed my resolve that the only way I would like to continue to participate in this forum is to learn from topics that are of direct relevance in discussing the teachings of the Goswamis, the ways of bhajan and the nectar of Radha-Krishna.

The fact that you have members - and you especially Madhava! - that can speak so authoritatively about these things is the astounding strength of this forum. It took me a while, but now I get it.

I've come here for this, and for this alone, and I'm praying you're not going to quit on me now!

For what it's worth, I'd like to offer my own humble personal commitment to making any and all future contributions as positive and valuable as they can be.

I would be happy to be offered a sort of "read-only" membership where I can still access the information in the old ACE area. Then my presence won't disturb the traditional members.

I do want to say that as always, I support anyone seeking pure love of God in any religion throughout the world.

Jai Sri Radhe!

I have been here around for some time, but only as "read-only" member.
This place is really wonderful, this place gave me so much peace and joy in the heart.
This place gave me new hope (actually it is not the place, it is more people like Madhavananda ji and his good wife Malatilata, Jagadananda, nabadvip, braja, radhapad and many many others here)

I have been experiencing inner lost for some time, but you helped me so much not even knowing me
Nice, learned, kind discussions, different angels of vision, deep sadhakas... This IS oasis of spirituality in the net.

I really hope this forum will keep on going.
This is the real thing.

My heartfelt best wishes and deep gratitude to you.
ananda vrindavana

This is one point where I am in complete agreement. In fact, the instant I saw the title of this topic the first thought that went through my mind was "You have got to be kidding!"

I see that Kovidara has contributed his thoughts on this topic just now. I hope that Kovidara won't mind me using him as an example of how I find this forum extremely useful. I am watching the topic where he asks questions about the differences between the sakhis and the manjaris. I asked the same question myself some time ago, and because my question was brief Madhava's reply, though excellent, was also relatively brief. It satisfied me but the deeper distinctions have remained unclear, and I felt embarrassed to clarify.

So I am enjoying the track that Kovidara is taking when he is asking more or less the same questions. And because he has obviously done some research, quoting shastric verses and so on, Madhava's replies are even more detailed and educational and I feel that I can understand the subject better.

So this is how we can all grow in our education of Gaudiya siddhanta together, which is precisely why it would be a crying shame if this forum closed down. There really is nothing to do without GD and frankly I don't think there would even be much point in going online any more. So I pray that GD just evolves into another phase and we can all laugh about this discussion sometime in the future.

"I can't believe we even thought of closing this place down. Can you believe that?"

I agree with everything Ananga has said above.

Plus I appreciate having had the opportunity to go head-to-head with Jagat occasionally. While I don't think wide-ranging discussions on current issues help me get closer to Gaudiyaism, I respect that he may hold a different view. But we can surely continue such discussions elsewhere - he should have a blog!

And I do understand what you are saying Madhava, and you may have a good point, I'll have to mull it over. Whatever you decide I am very grateful for the hard work you have put in over the years. And your own writings have certainly given me insights I would not have had otherwise or from anyone else.

QUOTE(Kshamabuddhi @ Aug 7 2005, 05:43 PM)
Somebody needs to take Madhava by the shoulders and shake him a little and say "what to hell is wrong with you?, your forum is the king of the hill!"

Yeah I can agree with that too.

I agree. I have so many times seen a wonderful post by one of my worshipful seniors (Madhava included) and tried two or three times to reply. Finally, unable to add anything of value or intelligence, just moved on to the next topic. I would have felt stupid sending a pm congratulating you on your topic- "wow- very cool- I don't really know what it means and won't till I put some real NamaJapa time in, but I appreciate it."
Can you understand?
I don't have any realizations yet- that's what makes me reluctant.
Thank you Vamsidas-Da.

I also wanted to give my appreciation for the rotating mod idea. Jobs are only appreciated by those that have to do it. Make it a condition of posting.
Jai Radhe!

What an excellent idea! They could easily (and for free) open up a blog on livejournal (both Jagat and Madhava) and it would enable people to ask them questions in the comments box and get answers. (Only if they decide to close the forum, which I vote should stay open.) On livejournal they can make posts either open to the public at large, open only to those who are listed in their friends' group, or private, as they wish. Permissions are set easily for each post in a pull down menu.

I would urge them to do so if they close the forum so people here can still benefit from their wide knowledge of the tradition.

As members of GR they also have access to blog software but non members cannot read posts and it has less flexibility than livejournal regarding post permissions--though I welcome them to use it if they like.

This topic seems to assume there are two main options, close or stay open (with or without changes).

Why don't the mods all take a good, long break, one in which they don't do any new work on the forum, as was done on the last break. Just completely get away from it, spend quality time with family, on sadhana, get away from the computer as much as possible, and maybe then come back and continue this conversation about whatever changes or long term decisions need to be made.

Madhava, do you want to make a decision at the height of being burned out? Is that a good idea? You may find out you don't miss it, you may find out that you really do, but give yourself a good long break, one way or another.

Alternately, is there anyone willing to step up and learn the basic skills of moderating (moving posts, splitting topics, etc.) while Madhava simply does any technical work that comes up? Someone who hasn't already burned out on it? Either for a while, as he spends some time on other things, or for good?

I think it would be interesting if some of his strongest critics and peanut gallery members came forward and found out what it's like to be on the hot seat for awhile.

Just some ideas--let's try thinking outside the box, or at least outside the binary system.

I believe the question that heads this topic has been answered--there are too many people who are benefiting, even from GD in its current state, for it to be closed.

Tapati, as usual, is full of good sense. Where the external world is concerned, we must exercise a certain level of detachment.

Not feeling that detachment, I feel a partial responsibility for the "problem." However, I personally have bigger problems--mainly that of keeping my own focus in my life so that ultimately I can serve the devotee community even more efficiently and productively. (What a statement right out of corporate America!)

All things go through cycles. One should never despair during a downturn. If the original purpose was noble, one should not give up one's prescribed duty.

As KB says, there is in fact still nothing better out there. So let's keep on encouraging those who have experienced some spiritual realizations in Krishna bhakti to share those here.

Jai Radhe.

I'm glad to hear of so many people coming forward and mentioning the importance they feel GD holds for them. If nothing else, at least this topic has put people thinking. No-one should think GD is there for granted. Nor should anyone think we are somehow obliged to keep GD around no matter what. As long as we feel GD is serving its purpose, it'll be there. Whether it's serving its purpose or not depends solely on each individual member. If you would like to have GD around, and if you would like to see it flourish, then you should start doing something about it.

Being the king of the hill isn't worth much if it means being the cock of the walk. (The more descriptive Finnish proverb puts the cock on a dungheap.) The very concept of progress calls us to periodically evaluate our methods, and to seek improvement may mean discarding the old in favor of the new, even if the old has been successful to an extent, if the old shows no signs of meaningful progress.

GD isn't where it is supposed to be. To have a reason to keep investing time and energy in the project means to see it gradually progressing towards the desired goal.

For those who speak of Madhava's frustration: I would like to make it clear that this topic was started on the initiative of another moderator (one of those still around). In fact, it seems as I am the last among the staff who has still retained an interest towards steering this onwards.

Now, as for ideas of rotating worn-out moderators and so forth: This isn't an issue with fatique over the job of moderating. This is about a larger issue, it is about whether we see a reason to invest our time and energy into it in any capacity whatsoever, tired or not. If I feel we are making progress, being tired is not an issue. However, pouring energy into a bottomless well, even if available in abundance, is an issue. There has to be a valid reason for it, we must see continuity, we must see our efforts build up towards something greater, something we aspire for.

The issue isn't to be fixed at who moderates and with how much energy. When things get to the point that such moderation is needed, the problem has already occured and the moderation only patches it somewhat. The constant presence of posts that call for moderation is the problem, the very presence of such elements is the problem. A problem that needs to be eliminated.

I would like to quote a few words from fellow member I feel reflect well the predicament we are in.


If we are indeed to move on towards a new evolutionary phase, it will be one with a tighter screening of members with posting rights anywhere in the forums. Posting rights will be limited to those, who are sympathetic and respectful towards trad. Gaudiya Vaishnavism, who feel that trad. Gaudiya Vaishnavism is representative of the path taught by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and the Goswamis of Vraja, and who themselves see trad. Gaudiya as the spiritual path they wish to tread in their lives.

I would imagine this would eliminate the vast majority of what we feel is problematic. Additionally, the moderation standards will have to be more strictly enforced. Having a week's period of moderated membership at the first sign of trouble would help towards keeping most of the remaining issues from surfacing.

That may be the way of Josef Stalin, Mao Tse Tung or Adolf Hitler for some. To be honest, I really wouldn't care. If we are to move on towards what GD should be, it'll be a take it or leave it way instead of the democratic fight for your rights approach.

Posting is not a right. It is a privilege.

Does anyone have thoughts on all that?

Got the message loud and clear Madhav.



I wish you had been this specific during the first reconstruction phase.

I caught the "sympathetic and respectful" part, but the "and" must have been between the lines. I am not very good at reading there, it seems.



I certainly hope not.

Well said Jagat.
I couldn't agree more.

Will there be installation of 'Barbed Wire' at some point? Gas Chambers for non-believers?

OK, I'm feeling a bit like a Narada Muni/catalyzer in this current situation so I would first like to apologize to the Gaudiya sadhaka samaj for putting them in anxiety. As with "offline" communication, the background to an issue isn't always fully conveyed nor readily apparent and this discussion may have come across with a bit more gloom than intended. So, with the ambition of putting at ease those who share the goals of Gaudiya Discussions, I'd like to let you know that whatever happens here, your sanga will always be appreciated and your interests catered to. We actually have a number of projects in the works that should bring you much joy. While we're not in a position yet to make any public announcements--this isn't public is it? Hope not because I didn't run it past the team before posting --please rest assured that you are not going to be abandoned. The scope of these projects will also reach beyond the cyber realm. Unfortunately the more practical nature of these endeavors means they also take greater time and resources but the results should be remarkable. But for now, please keep this a secret between us.

As for the future of GD: I'm personally in favor of those who share certain beliefs (or dis-beliefs) from banding together to form their own communities. It seems to have worked wonderfully at gaudiya-repercussions (despite the terrible name ). I looked the other day and saw they have most of the (former) NE BBT on their membership. Krishnapremonmaada looks like a wonderful opportunity for those who are interested in non-sectarian Krishna bhakti. Ultimately there is something organic about these kind of changes (built on dung, perhaps?) so I don't think that anyone loses. With the click of a mouse, you can choose your flavor.

I guess that pretty much sums up your heartfelt wishes.
This should be the plan and the format for the future of this forum.
I think you will get a lot more satisfaction and a lot less aggravation if you just took this standard and ran with it.
Of course that will elimate myself and a lot of others in this forum - let it be.

Progress means acceptance and elimination. Accept what is best for your own goals and eliminate that which is counter-productive.

However, the "traditional" school is a very small minority of the western Vaishnava society. Being of the smallest section and having the largest membership forum of course shows a lack of balance.

To achieve the standards you seek, there will have to be a lot of cutting away of slag.

I think your vision for the future of this forum will become more finely tuned as experience and time shows the faults and foibles that are keeping this forum from being of the standard you seek.

Just do what you have to do. I am sure that some new forums will be spawned from the streamlining of this forum, as the needs of those that will be rejected from this forum seek other forums to participate on in this technological age of cyberspace sanga.

[attachmentid=1749]

I'd be happy for the membership criteria to be tightened as per Madhava's ideas. Although I do qualify I still feel not pakka enough or learned enough to contribute to many threads. Apart from occasional questions about grammar and requests for help translating my conversations here will continue to be more of a chai shop chit-chat blokey stuff about fonts and computers and recording kirtan. I have in mind a certain chai shop on the parikrama route in Radhakund near the path that goes down to the sangam on the Vrindavan side of the kunda or a chai shop in the market place next to a nam jagya in remote southern M.P. or...

Rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, why not simply ban those who violated the rules you already had in place regarding respect of your tradition? Why boot off those who do respect (if not agree with or wish to take up) your tradition and value the opportunity to learn more about it because it inspires their own spiritual practice and knowledge? It seems like you simply haven't enforced your own guidelines, and now you speak of changing them to be more exclusive, without having given the current ones a chance.

It's been said before, but vehement disagreements break out even among members of the tradition about the tradition. It's simply human nature. We seek out forum utopia and we bring our humanity with all its flaws and virtues along with us.

Regarding burnout, in other topics you (Madhava) had expressed that you were beginning to feel that this forum was taking up so much of your time and you questioned whether that was a good thing (don't have the exact wording in front of me) so I think that's why burnout was seen as an issue. I think vacations are prudent for anyone moderating discussions.

In any event, as I've said before, I am happy with read only permissions that get me into the archives, and if everyone would prefer I not post then that is fine with me. I have plenty of things to do and for the most part I do refrain from posting as I can't add anything to your understanding of your tradition. There are still members here I enjoy occasional correspondence with who would be uncomfortable at GR, so that's another reason I've maintained my membership.

Perhaps non-posting members who have questions could submit them in some manner to be taken up by the mods and answered. Over time, a new member might emerge as they get more acquainted with the tradition and come to embrace it.

In any event, I wish Gaudiya Discussions and all of its members and moderators nothing but the best.

Blessed be--

Tapati

Believing ourselves to be possessors of absolute truth degrades us: we regard every person whose way of thinking is different from ours as a monster and a threat and by so doing turn our own selves into monsters and threats to our fellows.

Octavio Paz

http://www.gaudiya-repercussions.com.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/tapati/

If we look really closely at the concept and the standards with which Madhava wants to apply to this forum:



We will see that he has reduced the audience down to a mere handful of devotees.
Even if we look at the most confidential members:
Jagat
Rasaraja
Braja

We will find that they themselves could even be considered strange bedfellows for Madhava.
(1) Jagat is a disciple of Lalita Prasada who was the son of Bhaktivinode Thakur and known to have working relationships with Saraswatas like Tripururi Swami etc.
He may also be somewhat inclined to feel an interest in having some acceptance from the Saraswata community.

(2) Rasaraja is a Godbother to Madhava, but is planning a possilbe move to Alachua where he hopes to gain acceptance and association with the Saraswata community.

(3) Braja is a relatively unknown who does not even mention his diksha guru in his profile and whose philosophical position seems to be based upon his own conclusions without endorsing anything or anyone in particular.


It seems that what Madhava really needs to do is reduce his association down to his Godbrother disciples of Sri Ananta das Babaji, because even in the traditional world there is a lot of differing viewpoint and opinions.

If you really want to get down to the real nitty gritty, Madhava needs to ask himself whether or not there is even a need for any forum at all. He can communicate with his Godbrothers in ways apart from public forums.

If Madhava wants a preaching forum where he can promote traditional parivars to the western world, then he is going to have to face up to the fact that there will be many challenges and it will not be a cake walk where he gets full gratification from everything that comes up on his forum.

One more note.
Srila Sridhar Maharaja said "kirtan means a fight".
Preaching means to fight with opposing elements.
If Madhava wants to preach traditional Gaudiya ideas all around the world then he needs to be ready for a fight.
If he is not ready to fight, then he is not ready to preach, and the need for a forum becomes highly questionable at this point.

If he doesn't want to fight and preach, then maybe he should just live a life of bhajan like his gurudeva and only preach to those that come to him and fall prostrate at his feet and beg for siksha.

I would like to slap your back in a friendly manner and firmly agree with you in this direction you are taking vis-a-vis the elimination scenario. I feel that it is long overdue and will be much welcomed. I have a few thoughts on some subjects that may be moot now but I thought I'd register them in anyway.

Regarding the subject of rotational moderation, I do not think that this is a good idea as I have long thought that it is fitting for the moderators to be diksits. For a forum to represent pure Rupanuga Vaishnavism, it seems logical to have an adminstrative team of faithful Rupanuga Vaishnavas. However, I don't see any harm in having a 'lower tier' of administration with restricted moderating powers. 'Mini-moderators' you could say. One of the immediate advantages I can see is prompt dealing with of any incidents, as it would be unreasonable to expect any one of the four 'big' moderators to be online all the time to deal with big issues. I think this prompt dealing with of any unpleasant incidents or whatever would result in less of a headache for any one of the 'big' moderators who will then be able to concentrate on other important things. To contrast with the 'diksit' moderators, it may not be necessary for the mini-moderators to be diksit but they should at least have demonstrated their loyalty to trad. Gaudiya Vaishnavism in some ways along the lines that you outlined in this post of yours.

I am also in complete agreement with your ideas on limiting the posting rights to Gaudiya 'loyalists' and screening procedures for prospective new members. I don't see anything inherently wrong in that because the troubles we have had so far would justify these measures. I don't like to compare GD with other forums because it is certainly one-of-a-kind in some areas, but I can't help noticing how other groups have much stricter admission policies as well as a "fascist" way of moderation. Given that we have had more than our fair share of trouble it seems only right that it's about time we implemented screening procedures and got tough on some things. Any tightening-up of the rules can only be for the further good of this community.

I would again like to draw from a personal example which may outline how we have to monitor the subject of some posts. When I was away from here for around a year, I came back to see many new members and lots of different kinds of stuff to read. One thing in particular that concerned me was the profuse number of threads glorifying the various aspects of Sri Vaishnavism, including the glorification of the Queens of Dvaraka, etc. A lot of these postings were in the form of stutis, astakas and so on. Don't get me wrong here, I actually like reading Sri Vaishnava stuff and all of that was a pleasure to read, though I became very concerned over the amount of it that was posted. The other obvious consideration would be that if I was honestly interested in Sri Vaishnava material, then I would be visiting Sri Vaishnava forums to read it.

While I appreciate glorification of Sri Hari in all its forms, I believe that we have to be concerned whether some glorifications are suitable to be heard, at least in this forum. Strange and queer as that may sound, I think like this because I have heard Sri Visvanath Cakravartipada stating in his Raga-vartma-candrika that such narrations (of the Dvaraka queens, etc) are one of the things that a Gaudiya Vaishnava sadhaka should not engage in or indulge (dvArakA-dhyAna mahiSyarcanAdInyapakArakANi na kartavyAni). Obviously I am not suggesting that we should ban all talk of Dvaraka-lila and so on as that would be cutting out a significant portion of Krsna's prakata-lila and would be silly. My main point is that not only must we take care with the subject of who posts, but also with what is posted. GD cannot please everyone and cannot cater to everybody. It has a specific direction and purpose which should be fulfilled and which should be fulfilling.

If the general consensus here is that we should move closer to the ideals of Rupanuga Vaishnavism, then I feel that it is important to know what we should be focusing on. Some of the points made thus far on this thread pertain to the balance of posts, in which case I think we should ensure that there is indeed a balance (or even a prominence, why not?) of Rupanuga Gaudiya topics above everything else.

I hope that what I have written thus far is valuable to you. That said, I am very glad to see the discussion moving more onto the 'next evolutionary phase' rather than a shutdown. My heart is at rest and it is business as usual for me. I am now off to read Dasanudasji's translations of Brahma-stuti as well as look up some gems that I can contribute!

While I'm at it, my interest is aroused at a hot story in the news. One of the justices in the US Supreme Court resigned, and the US President needs to appoint a new one. This is a hard choice because the balance of the Supreme Court must be maintained. As I understand it, the Supreme Court consists of five justices; two conservative, two liberal and one 'swinger'. Since it was the swinger that resigned, it is now the responsibility of the President to appoint a suitable candidate to maintain the balance. I haven't kept up with this story so I have no idea if the appointment has taken place recently, but I'm sure that most of you are aware of the issues and its implications for America.

I couldn't help noticing the same situation with our GD moderation. You'll have to forgive me for bringing this up, but since change is in the air and varieties of ideas are being submitted for consideration, I beg to have this idea also for consideration. In my view one of the major issues that has haunted this forum is the similar issue of conservatives versus liberals. I am thinking specifically of the arguments between Jagat and Advaita, when the latter objected to the "casual" attitude of the former and other members of the moderating team. Not to dig all of this up again but a lot of grievances were aired. I couldn't help wondering what would happen if the moderating team consisted of a balance in moderating outlook similar to the US Supreme Court. An equal number of 'conservatives' and 'liberals' right here, with a 'swinger' perhaps. What do you think?

After giving this some thought, I am wondering if in a sense these forums have run their course as far as content. It seems as though the same topics are recurring without any really new and fresh discussions, or any that lead in any direction as opposed to going around in the same circles. I have sought to brainstorm over the general approach to reinventing the GV tradition without losing its essence, as opposed to delving into finer points of siddhAnta as others here have done. I felt this site was a suitable platform for that discourse. Unfortunately, I don't feel I aroused the type of response that was warranted, given the juxtaposition of this ancient tradition with our high tech society. Consider the fact that this whole chat room experience is well beyond the imagination of the people living five centuries ago when this tradition of ours took root in a very alien culture.

Based on all of that, I have to agree with Madhava that it is really up to the participants here whether or not this site is going to live up to the moderating team's vision and expectations. A lot of that has to do with self-restraint when it comes to certain controversies where the opponents are not likely to ever see eye to eye. The wise course is to let sleeping dogs lie in those situations rather than just throwing more fuel on the fire. If we are ever to become a viable community off line, then we have to embrace diversity just as Western culture (especially here in America) has done over the past couple of centuries in assimilating all variety of immigrants from all over the globe. I suggest that anyone thinking of posting here first give careful thought and deliberation over the content. Try to come up with something that others will find interesting and educational and thought provoking as opposed to the rehashing of things that have already been discussed and written about at length elsewhere.

Let's view these forums as one big flight simulator. If we can make it work here, then maybe this bird can fly out there. Crash landings on the flight simulator cause no real injuries, just wounded pride. Crashes out there have real consequences that can be quite painful. If we are unable to fly with our flight simulator, then we do not have much hope of flying off line with an in-the-flesh community of Boishnabs. This tool known as the internet is a gift to us directly from Goloka. If we view it in that light, perhaps we can set up sacred space within it. For that reason I called my first website the virtual mandir.

Thank you Madhava for your email inviting my comments.



Kshamabuddhi, you forgot to mention Advaitadas, a significant Shree Ananta Baba disciple here
and Malatilata (Madhava's partner)

Madhava, I agree with the positive component in Kshama's post. You need to regroup with your perceived core members, settle your differences down to, at least, a workable relationship (if not a totally consonant one). If you cannot do this then you are putting the cart before the horse.

This is the only useful comment I can make at this point. I hope you will see it is a comment untouched by my personal interests and status in this forum.

It might have been nice to get feedback on this as I was doing the work of creating the posts. I only ever got positive feedback for these, or I would not have done. Anyway, I got the message now.

Just for the record, I agree that GD has the right to restrict postings and members as it sees fit. If the administrators, who are heavy into sadhana, are going to put in so much time and effort to make this forum available, it should be allowed and encouraged to cater to its target audience without being made to feel bad by "others" including myself.

Good luck rupanugas.

Also it should be allowed and encouraged to cater to its target audience without making "others" feel bad. Sorry it's not been a one way street nor usually ever is.

Has anybody ever wished them otherwise!

Believe in pluralism. That is and always has been the Hindu way.

na hy ekasmAd guror jnAnaM
susthiraM syat supuSkalam
brahmaikam advitIyaM vai
gIyate bahudharSibhiH

Success to everyone and true spiritual advancement to all.

A nice simple prayer of Haridas Shastri's own composition.

vaiSNave prItir AstAM me prItir AstAM prabhor guNe
sevAyAM prItir AstAM me prItir Artiz ca kIrtane
Azrite prItir AstAM me prItiz ca bhajanonmukhe
Atmani prItir AstAM me kRSNa-bhaktir yathA bhavet

"May I have love for the Vaishnavas. May I have love for the Lord's qualities. May I have love for service. May I have love and enthusiasm for Harinam Kirtan. My I have love for those who have taken shelter. May I have love for those who even have a desire to engage in bhajan. May I have love for my soul, through which devotion to Krishna will come about."

(contributed by Jagat)

Jaya Sri Radhey!

It seems more natural and appropriate that the Gaudiya world be divided by parivar as opposed to "traditional" and non-traditional categories. As even in the traditional world there are some marked differences that have been seen to create conflict and controversy between proponents of different parivars of "traditional" Gaudiya society.
This amalgamation (homogenization) of "traditional" camps under one theme called Gaudiya Discussions seems to be quite the new invention. Most gurus of most parivars prefer if their disciples take association and sanga from within the parivar, as even amongst "traditional" parivars there are peculiarities that distinguish one parivar from another.

The alliance of assorted "traditional" parivars under one flag seems to be a rather peculiar concept. Why should members of different parivars make an alliance to propagate a generic brand of Gaudiya culture that is called "traditional".
Should not a disciple of a traditional guru feel that his responsibility is to perpetuate that particular parivar? What is this alliance of traditional parivars supposed to prove? Why even the alliance? Where have we ever seen an assortment of "traditional" parivars come together to promote each other's parivar under a generic flag called "traditional" Gaudiya Vaishnavism?

My point is that the premise and principles behind this alliance of devotees from different parivars coming together under a generic flag called "traditional" is a very awkward and sometimes unbecoming alliance. The very foundational doctrine behind this forum needs to questioned and examined to see if it is even practical and in line with the teachings of the gurus of the followers of these "traditional" parivars.

Maybe, if Madhava wants to keep a presence in the cyber forum world, he should consider a straight and pure approach representing the parivar of Sri Ananta das Babaji, instead of this generic alliance we know as the "traditional" school vs. IGM ?

Has this topic run it’s course yet?

The question has been answered, the variety of suggestions has been made, the situation has been assessed and the critics have been heard.

Now only the VERDICT is sought for.

What is the siddhAnta?

What Kshamabuddhi says is not without merit. I think that there is a particularly rasa in Radha Kund that Ananta Dasji represents. In fact, even Adwaita Dasji, though he has long associated with those in Radha Kund, has always felt a kind of ambivalence towards them because of a certain difference of mood between his family and those following the babaji method of bhajan.

But that is neither here nor there. Gurus naturally prefer that their disciples follow the discipline that they give, but the real criterion is that they seek out association that will help them to cultivate the ultimate goal of Radha-dasya. There is no such thing as a perfectly homogenous human association. But in this imperfect world, we find light in the company of like-minded sadhus.

After reading this topic and some of the replies from members eager to have a traditional-Gaudiya-members forum only, I have asked Madhava if he can assure me of a way I can get a copy of the archives. Once I know that I can do so I have asked for my membership to be deleted so as not to further disturb the minds of the assembled traditional Vaishnavas. Recently I've been aware that objections were made to my presence so I don't want to be the cause of further discomfort.

I do genuinely celebrate the bhakti path in all its forms and I wish you all success in your devotional endeavors. I have learned a lot from the kind devotees here, such as Satyabhama, Advitiya, Jagat, Madhava, Braja, Mina, TarunGovindadas, Ananga, Keshava, Nabadip, DarmaChakra, Brajamani, Rasaraja dasa, Hari Saran, Advaitadas...the list goes on and I have too feeble a memory, so please forgive omissions. Just because I am a firm believer in my own path doesn't mean I can't appreciate some of the wonderful things about yours.

I hope you can create the kind of forum experience that supports and enlivens your devotional path.

Blessed be--

Tapati

Believing ourselves to be possessors of absolute truth degrades us: we regard every person whose way of thinking is different from ours as a monster and a threat and by so doing turn our own selves into monsters and threats to our fellows.

Octavio Paz

http://www.gaudiya-repercussions.com.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/tapati/

I laud Madhava's tightening of the membership standards. As bhakti flourishes in our hearts when we tighten our copins, similarly will the vaisnava communication flourish when we tighten the membership.

OK, I'm going to try to reply to a few different points here in one fowl swoop: *squawk*


Wow, I succeeded. Actually, I have told something of myself but some it was behind closed doors. I'll be putting more together in the form of a blog soon as I actually think I've said too much about myself here.



FWIW, the disciples of Sri Ananta Das Babaji do have their own forum.



Advaitaji isn't a disciple of Ananta Das Baba and often tries to make that clear. He has been main translator to date though, thus the confusion. See his site for more information on his lineage: madangopal.com



Yes, one of the things we are certainly hoping to achieve is a somewhat consistent expectation as far as acceptable behavior goes; just because someone "fits" due to their affiliation doesn't mean they have a right to rudeness, etc.



No, you get a message. Personally I agree with those who did you feedback. I'm not so rich that my lips curl in distaste at some other bhava. The problem really
only arises when nectar turns to poison in the hands of someone who wants to push their own contrary belief system in a place that is dedicated to a certain outlook.



While there are certainly elements of truth in what you say, traditional Gaudiya Vaisnavism is firmly rooted in the teachings of Sri Sri Rupa-Raghunatha, Narottama Das Thakur, Sri Chakravartipada, etc. That is what we aspire for and from there, let the chips land where they fall.

Two practical examples of a united approach can be seen in Sri Ananta Das Baba: if you watch some of the available video materials you'll see him suggesting that people should take initiation from any of the raganuga gurus, mentioning Srivatsa Goswami by name. I have also heard him praised at Radhakunda for uniting the various groups. One Panda got quite excited telling me, "Sab sampradaya. First time! All sampradayas." (I'd already paid him so I think his opinion was somewhat objective. )

I agree...To tighten ones underwear does little to help in their pursuit of bhakti.. Loosen up and get a grip at the same time....Geeez!

Humbly,

Sakhi

Hmm, I'm not aware of any. You are actually a voice of reason and wisdom. Someone mentioned earlier that we're "trying to have our cake and eat it." While I didn't agree with the way they presented this, I did meditate on the concept and saw that I do have this issue. You and Dhyana (when she posted) represented a humanistic, psychological and fun outlook that I appreciate; others represented academic, Sanskritic, historical outlooks that I similarly appreciated (Ek, Toke, Gaura Kesava, Brighu, Finn Madsen). And to a 't', you have all contributed with a fair degree of dignity and respect--as with the problem highlighted earlier, often moreso than "the believers." So there is me trying to have my cake and eat it.

However, I don't see that anyone needs to be scared away so long as they recognize what this place is about. If you get nourishment from it, by all means visit. If you have something to contribute, please do. But if you find that you are repeatedly and deliberately offering opinions that are contrary to our goals, then the polite thing is to go. As Tapati pointed out earlier, we already had the guidelines in place but didn't enforce them. We apologize for that--a stitch in time and all that--but despite the talk of barbed wire and the like, we're not actually mean people. But it does seem that we do need to snip back some participant's privileges for the good of this board and possibly restrict some areas. However this is going to be done by way of consultation between the moderators and a few other wise folk and nothing "official" should be construed from innuendo or passing comments by other members.

My god, so many words.
Blessed be, Sri Radhe.

Yes, and I remember associating with you and asking you a lot of questions about Sri Vaishnava siddhanta and so on. It's nice to see you again, I didn't recognise you with this new nick, I didn't know it was you. I still treasure our friendship even though we have been out of touch for some time.

Actually it was because of all that stuff you posted that I got interested in Sri Vaishnavism to an extent, buying books on it etc. I think I made clear that I liked it. I think I wasn't clear on the relation it has with this forum though. Like I said, it would be silly to ignore that part of Krishna's life in the form of some misguided ultra-fanatical obsession with Vraja-lila. But as far as this forum is concerned, I was worried about the balance, i.e.: too much of other things apart from Vraja-lila being discussed and so on. I think it is high time that we got back to our real focus. I wonder how many here now were around in the 'Raganuga' days of this forum? At that time there was plenty of sweet stuff to read due to Madhava's efforts and selected extracts from some sweet shastras. I often find myself harking back to such old posts, wishing that there was more, and then being disheartened when seeing controversial debates and other "irrelevant" stuff being discussed. So the point I was making was no slight on you at all or your contributions, which I still value and so I never meant any offence to you; it is just an expression of concern that we need to get back to the real focus of this forum. Radha-Krishna, Gaura-lila, Gosvami-granthas, Bhagavata, and so on. I am so thirsty for this..

I think that Kshamabuddhi's latest post is REPLETE with merit. To say, as you have done, that it is not without merit does not contradict it being replete with merit but does understate it somewhat. Perhaps it didn't hit you the way it hit me. I was also moved by the manner of its expression. I have not had the opportunity to incisively scrutinize it yet to see whether I agree with all the merit that it contains but I know that I intuitively find it agreable providing it is taken in
good faith.

Jagat's point that devotees should be able to find nourishment in the broad association of the tradition is not without merit either. (Please forgive me, Jagat, if I summarised it clumsily). However, a propos Madhava's raison d'etre for this site, when it comes to dialectic association, which seems to be the fortE or default of internet forums, I feel it would be better if the core internet grouping here were as Kshama has suggested - parivar or spiritual family oriented.

I think that the fortE of broader spiritual association is in the spirito-aesthetic context of raag bhajan and kirtan, dance and literature and domestic culture of sharing prasadam and friendships and so on.

I don't know if either Jagat or Kshama meant the merits of their posts to take this turn. However, this post is my reconciliation of the meritorious thrust of each post as I see it. I have enjoyed writing this. Thank you.

The biggest problem with communication is wrongly assuming that it has happened...

Regarding the suggestion that sangas be parivar-divided, instead of trad. vs non-trad. & others. This, unfortunately, is not the division we find in the real world of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, so I fail to see why we should implement such in here. While there are elements that are inherently parivar-specific, we find that Gaudiyas of virtually all denominations are able to come together and celebrate in the various utsavas, attend the same classes and so forth. Hey, you even get an occasional Gaudiya Math member there.

Honestly, I consider members such as Keshava, Babhru, Bhrigu and Audarya-lila, who aren't trad. Gaudiya but share a modest and respectful nature towards trad. Gaudiya, as valued members of the community and the forums.

Before anyone starts asking for their accounts to be deleted and what not, I would request that you please hold back and wait for the "official" future guidelines to be put forward by the staff of moderators. (And for the record for everyone who's asking, you can have files of all the stuff you want if you don't want to stop being a member.)

The problem isn't as much in the formal affiliation of people as it is in their attitudes towards our tradition. If there is someone who is not a trad. Gaudiya, but who demonstrates with his / her behavior a sense of deep respect towards it, I do not see why there should be a problem. Of course, being a committed Gaudiya oneself means (or should mean, anyway!) that this attitude is there, so in that sense just drawing the line there would be the easy thing to do. Nevertheless, there are also people, such as Tapati, who have demonstrated a good capacity for honoring our ways and wishes as far as the scope of these forums are concerned, and whose participation I therefore do not regard as an issue, but rather more as an asset. On the other hand, if there is a trad. Gaudiya who has little respect for the plural nature of our trad. tradition and who becomes a bible-thumper of his own way, I would see that undesirable.

Here are the three core problems I see:

• Members who aren't trad. Gaudiyas and who come to advocate their own ways, whether it be Saraswataism, Kripaluism or Atheism, as a superior alternative to our way of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
• Members who, instead of approaching controversies with a desire towards reconciliation with the tradition, enjoy trying to poke holes into the tradition and create a spirit of a priori mistrust toward it.
• Members who aren't trad. Gaudiyas and who come here to discuss varieties of topics without concern for relevance for those following the trad. Gaudiya way.

If we can weed that out, I'm happy and do not see the need for revisions beyond that, not for the time being anyway. As Tapati put it, we would do well to try to first enforce our current set of principles. (Though I believe the three points above should be incorporated there, and additionally to the registration page of the forums.)

Any thoughts on this proposed solution?

I'm not sure that is the actual purpose of this site or anybody who comes here, but I might be wrong.

I see a lot of very, very narrow interpretations of our tradition by devotees who "feel that his responsibility is to perpetuate that particular parivar", and very little good that such approach generates.

Ancient Vedic prayer for all sincere seekers of Beloved God:

Om. That is full; this is full. This fullness has been projected from that fullness. When this fullness merges in that fullness, all that remains is fullness.
Om. Peace! Peace! Peace!

Om. May Brahman protect us both! May Brahman bestow upon
us both the fruit of Knowledge! May we both obtain the energy to acquire Knowledge! May what we both study reveal the Truth! May we cherish no ill feeling toward each other!

Om. Peace! Peace! Peace


GD is not the only forum where my messages are being posted since 2000, though I enjoy the many gadgets provided on this board for making my messages beautiful.

Well it seems you have closed your mind against Kshamabuddhi's ideas. It seems you want a catholic forum here. A well weeded one - an ostensible catholic forum.
At this rate you will still be weeding every few months at every crisis of being. This seems to be your personal journey Madhava and this forum is a projection of it. I am not saying that Kshamabuddhi is faultless - I don't know. I am querying your snappy decisiveness.

These are my thoughts on your solution. My thoughts may not have "relevance for those following the trad. Gaudiya way" but, then, neither does your dilemma have that relevance.

Thank you for correcting me and clarifying Advaita's parivar. However I also mentioned Malatilata and you have not corrected or confirmed my understanding of her as a disciple of Ananta Das Babaji. Should she not also be considered a core member? Why do you leave her out of your scan?

??? I didn't have a scan. It was Ksamabuddhi's list, not mine. I replied to the information regarding Advaita as he has previously asked that it be made clear that he is not a disciple of Ananta Das Baba.

His "most confidential members" was probably a reference to the moderators rather than a list of core members. The core members are a more diverse group than those three names he listed or the two you have added.

Talasiga is correct you seem to want the forum to 'fit through the eye of an needle' ..your needle. Can you not see that this at least has partially brought about some of the circumstances your currently faced with? Why do people rebel in the first place?

The manner in which you claim that the atmosphere here is because of members not fitting through that needle is irresponsible on your part as far as I am concerned and embarrassing and the same old rig-a-marole religions have been giving humanity for thousands of years...

Malatilata was on the list of moderators for some time in the past.

Human communities are delicate and fragile things. Too much homogeneity is anti-creative. To much heterogeneity is confused and directionless--and anti-community.

Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a path, not an aimless, endless search. It is not a "via negativa" where simple negation is an end in itself. There is something behind the madness, and that is Radha Krishna.

In a democracy, human societies (or subsocieties or subcultures, if you like) are volutnary associations of like-minded individuals who share certain goals and objectives. The rights of free-speech are balanced by the expectation that people will function in a civilized manner. We sometimes forget, while enjoying democratic freedoms, that they are backed up by a strong concept called the "rule of law." Westerners coming to India immediately notice that the rule of law is weak, and democracy tends to anarchy--not in the utopian sense that anarchists dream of, but in the basest kinds of power struggles, where only might is right.

Clearly there is a delicate balance that needs to be worked out, but I think it is unfair to accuse any of the moderators here of fascistic tendencies. If you are a guest in someone's home, you are expected to follow the house rules. If a guest starts infringing on the host's hospitality, then clearly the host will have to exercise his rights as the house's owner. The unruly guest who accuses his host of fascism is clearly unworthy of the kindnesses received.

Gaudiya Discussions is not a public forum in the way that some political forums may be. So I am in favor of Madhava and Braja's line of though and recent suggestions.

goodbye

my last post here ever I promise you

I guess I really don't belong here or fit in with this forum because I do not plan to adopt and practice "traditional" Gaudiya standards as promulgated by the principle members of this forum.
Therefore, I will follow Jajaji's lead and remove myself from this forum so that the administration does not have to be troubled to do that.

Farewell, best wishes to all.

See what I think we are trying to reproduce here is also a culture which we have experienced, of which so much seems beyond verbal clarification. Even to put it into words seems wrong because some things are often left unsaid.

If only it were as simple as a division between parivars. I am not intiated into Sri Anantadasji's immediate line, and our relations are actually quite complex, yet we offer Sri Anantadasji and his followers 110% support - they are an inspiration, and revered Baishnab seniors.

Unity in diversity, but of a particular kind, almost impossible to describe if you haven't seen it.

You do not deserve the ignominy of such a quote Jagat. Unfortunately you did say it. I am sure that as you look back over your shoulder the shadow of what you have said will be patent. The prodding of German history may help you to see it.

Yes, some time a ago a member, strikingly similar to Jijaji, was abusive (in words) to me and you (the Admin here) did little. Now a member who is Jijaji THINKS he agrees with me and you have spoken in way as to bring about his self banishment.

If you look closely at what I have said and what Jijaji said you may discern LITTLE substantial agreance between the thrust of our posts. Nevertheless, despite the real differences between his post and mine, there is a similarity. Neither post accused anyone of fascism.

Why all this wrangling.

There are two poles of knowledgeable people. Those who employ information at their disposal to understand the other. And those who employ the information at their disposal to not understand the other.

Of course, this is not an absolute position. There are infinite polarities of being.
Take the Divine Couple, for instance.

Ahhh..... take it away Anuraag !

Some people think of themselves a gift to the world, and expect other people to accept that gift no matter how it is given.

Some people think of the world as a gift they have been offered, and are willing to cooperate with others in order to receive that gift.

As always, thumbs up Vamsi....

Thumbs up for what? I am afraid that was judgmental of him, unkind and even arrogant. All in the name of higher wisdom? Really it is only a more polished version of the kanistha attitude we strongly condemned in other groups.

We need to stop this congratulating of each other over putting people down so we maintain the status quo.

Talasiga is right, the main influence on this board has being Orwellian, political. The problem with this is that it does not represent Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Ananta Das Baba has said: "Different mind are not a consideration. Bhakti is for all the world. Not Bengali, not Orissan, not U.P. person, there is no any such question. Bhakti is for all the universe. Therefore, Bengali or Western does no matter. Jiva Goswamipada has written that zuddhAntaH-karaNaz cet kIrtanAparityAgena smaraNaM kuryAt. If your heart is clean, then you do this smarananga-bhajana, remembering. And with remembering, you are of course chanting name, mala. zuddhantaH karanaz cet. Cet means if. If your heart is clean, then you – without avoiding the chanting of harinama – do smarana. Astakaliya-lila-memory. It is Goswamipada’s advice. There is no difference between a Bengali-man or a Western man”. Similarly Bhaktivinod Thakura has said that Lord Caitanya’s gift is not a religion but the dharma of the soul.

So why reducing the issue to a matter of social relations and human behavior?

Radha Krsna are in control. And they are not human.

This is a perfect riposte to Madhava's dilemma (as he has set out in this topic).
How clever that you made it without even addressing it to Madhava.


Ah ..... Chitrasakhi! Your spirit spreads among the aspiring servants ....

If someone has a fundamental problem with the management of this board, I would kindly suggest that they find a board that is closer to their ideals. We are not really all that interested in entertaining lobbyists who feel their primary purpose here is to reform, to critique or to revise.

Is it really that important to continue with this topic. I think Madhava opened this thread for his question to board member and he got the answer. We can stop now. Do not you think that there are other threads available in this board to invest your time and energy?

On the path there are garbage and honjey. Is it our inherent nature to examine always the gurbage?

Let us focus our mind on Sri Guru, Nam , Bigraha Sadhu and Vaishnava.


Jay Nitai

Dasanudas

This kind of spinning of wheels is boring and of no ultimate significance to this forum and most of the members thereof. Although some people seem to have spent years hovering around the various Vaisnava forums training for the perfect riposte, this is not the place for that. The matter at hand is very simple: if people want to participate here they need to understand the purpose of this forum. If they don't agree with those principles, they are welcome to participate only to the extent that they honor those principles despite their disagreement with them. We are not going to have any more games of convoluted semantics for people who don't have anything better to do with their lives. Orwellian? Sure, call it what you like--but more importantly, do something about it and set up your own ideal society elsewhere.

Since the moderating team and a good many members seem to be in agreement with my proposed solution available earlier on in this thread, that's the route we'll be taking. I'll be revising the board rules to better reflect that, as well as post an announcement in this forum to be read by all members.

With that, I believe this topic has run its course. I would like to thank all participants for their kind feedback. It was touching to learn of the extent to which the forums have influenced, and keep influencing some devotees' spiritual lives.