MP3 player for recording live music - Would an IRiver be a practical alternative to MiniDisc?

I will be going to India next February to rural Chhattisgahr (Previously southern M.P.) to Bengali refugee resettlement villages for the peasant farmers' post-harvest Nam Jagya season. I would like to record as much as possible. Sometimes there will be unreliable and fluctuating mains electricity and in some villages there will be no electricity.

Up to now I have used a minidisc machine which does need replacing. Friends who have bought the latest HI-MD machine are disappointed with Sony's attempts to stop simple conversion to MP3 for uploading and sharing so I want to investigate the alternatives. The advantages of the minidisc are very good battery life, the ability to trackmark music as its recording and not having to take a laptop with you.

I have seen the I-River machine in action and it seems to do what is required although I haven't had the chance to try using it. It would probably be necessary to rig up an external battery pack which I don't mind doing that but the thought of lugging a laptop seems too ghastly and a real bhav killer especialy with the compulsory twenty villagers are crowding round it asking questions when the kirtan is getting really good.

Does anyone have any experience using different MP3 players to record live music and can anyone offer any suggestions to what might do the job.

cheers

onek koshto dilam

Ananga

I don't have first-hand experience with iRiver, but I've just recently spent a considerable amount of time researching the same issue and weighing different alternatives.

First of all, as a note to the Sony HiMD DRM (Digital Rights Management) issue that gave you a whole big hassle if you wanted to upload your own recordings more than once, that has just recently been fixed with the arrival of SonicStage 3.2 (read here).

With the iRivers, the iFP series gives you hours of recording time with a single AA-battery, somewhere in the range of six hours or more with a 1500 mAH rechargeable AA battery, and encodes up to 320kbps mp3 on the fly with an external mic. The line-in doesn't seem to have plugin power for the mic, so you'll need to either use a battery-powered preamp that gives plugin power in between the device and the mic or otherwise a battery powered mic. The H-series provides plug-in power. The downside of the H-series is it uses custom batteries. MisticRiver is a helpful forum for iRiver related topics.

As far as quality of sound goes, of course HiMDs can also record lossless PCM audio, which is obviously better than any lossy format, though in some circumstances probably rather transparent. The SP Atrac, your second option with a HiMD recorder, gives you a bitrate of 285kbps, which is more or less the equivalent of 320kbps mp3. However, my bets are MiniDisc has a better setup as far as handling the signal from the mic is concerned.

What did I end up getting? I weighed between the two, and was siding towards the HiMD after hearing of the software update linked to earlier, but decided to go with a third option: a device especially meant for recording.

Have a look at the Edirol R1 (produced by Roland). The price is a bit steep in comparison to the two other options (though a high-end HiMD is also pricey), a bit over $400 in the US and around 400€ in Europe. (This was a donation to LOF Prod.) Recording time with two 2300mAH AA:s in the range of six hours, records both lossless PCM and mp3 up to 320kbps, uses CF cards for storing the data. 2 GB cards cost in the range of 100 € and stores 3h 8min of lossless PCM audio data, or a bit under 14 hours of mp3 @ 320kbps. The built-in stereo mic offers excellent quality even on its own. The product looks like military issue from the previous century, which means it's unlikely to attract much attention from the curious.

There are also some other devices like the Edirol R1, but I found them either too pricey or otherwise using custom batteries, which is a major issue if you're recording in places with unstable electricity and may not get a chance to charge them properly, or at all.

As you see this is coming out of my ears as I've spent the better half of the last two weeks looking into this, so feel free to ask more.

I was looking at one of these myself. I did some research and inquired about it from some audio profressionals of mine and received good reviews for sucha small device. I like the fact that it records onto CF (and microdrives as well I assume) and in a PCM format. I personally would rather record at a high quality and then drop it down into another format/medium if needed.

Have you got the machine yet Madhava?

our initial thoughts are:

Looks great.

The main drawback seems to be the battery life

The recording time of 1 hour (according to the brochure) or 2.5 hours (according to the website) isn't enough for Nam Jagya so some external battery pack will be necessary.

Levels: is there any auto level setting? What is the recording level display like?
We like the manual thumwheel for setting levels VERY VERY much!

Is there an equivalent to the trackmarking while recording facility in MD. This is essential for kirtan officianados. Is there something similar in the Edirol without having to pause the recording. We have grown accostomed to seamless recordings nowadays.

thanks

Ananga & Friends

No, he hasn't. I'll be shipping it over to him @ the end of august.


Actually, its ugly as heck... but for portable devices, thats probably a good thing...


Did you get the PM I sent you? I think its going to be very difficult to a recording device that will record longer than 2 - 3 hrs and have features like fast transfer to PC. Madhava has researched high capacity batteries that can get some more recording time, but I think you may have to monitor the battery life & learn how to switch them quickly

We also got an external mic and stand (thanks Braja!):
http://minidisco.com/dt-1k.html
http://minidisco.com/micpod.html

I notice the sample recordings done with the internal mic are quite close to the source. When I get the unit in, I'm going to do some sample recordings with kirtals & mridanga to see how well it handles them. I'll post results if people are interested.

We were just comparing the battery life of 4 hours from a single AA battery on a minidisc.

I await the results of your experimentsw wiith pleasure

xx A.

I believe this is based on low quality compression settings. Higher quality = lower bat life. I mean, how could you fit 4 hours of good quality audio on even a HiMD disc? Also, if you are going to edit the files at all, you should record at the highest quality setting you can.

I addressed the battery life in my post, if you read it again. If you can find reliable ratings for alkaline battery capacities in mAh, you can just do the math with 350mAh consumption for recording.

Recording times on a HiMD 1GB disc: PCM (lossless ~ 1400kbps) - 1h 34 min, Hi-Sp (~280kbps) 7h 55min, HiLp (~64kbps) 34h.

Some reading up on this topic in general, see here. With regards to HiMD MiniDisc players, and battery life, read here.

Now, of course there's the question, Ananga, are you carrying a laptop? MDs are a heck of a lot cheaper for a media than stacking up 2GB CompactFlash cards. If you don't have anywhere to unload them, I don't see you having a lot of choice with this. I have my laptop, so 2 x 2GB CF, covering 2 x 188 min, which is well enough. If it should look like I'm still going to have a lot of recording to do during the day, I can always swap to 320kbps mp3:s after using 3GB and still have some seven more hours to go on the remaining GB.

Here's more on the Edirol R1 at Roland's site, and here's a helpful review.

Some have built battery packs for the Edirol device. I think I'll build one myself just to have my bases covered. Just now looking for DYI instructions, will keep you posted.


According to the last comment here, there is no track marking there, without stopping and restarting.

I personally don't see this as an issue, as it's really easy enough to split them apart in an audio editor of your choice on your PC, seeing the waveform makes it a non-issue as far as finding the locations of the breaks go.

The reason that trackmarking and naming is desirable is that we can ask the nam jagya kirtaniyas the name of ragas and other salient features of the raga. But granted, perhaps that level of musicology is not needed by most

Well, I would say it is certainly desirable. However couldn't you just make your notes as 1st, 2nd and so forth, and then split the tracks from the seamless file and similarly find the corresponding 1st, 2nd etc.?

Ok, I've got the R1 recorder in last week and have been playing with it. I'll post some thoughts & a sample recording.

1. Its small & functional. On the whole its well designed & thought out. It can be operated with one hand (right hand) easily.

2. Hangs off of your computer as a USB drive, no special drivers needed for XP.

3. Due to a limitation, it labels all songs/files as created at the same time on the same date, so you have to keep notes of what song is what, as it also uses a generic song name scheme (R1_xxxx.mp3).

4. A review Madhava posted complained about boot time. I found from power on to recording to be ~ 4-5 seconds. What problem?

5. The level adjustment knob is on the side and tightened to prevent slippage. You have to carefully set the levels at the start of recording.

6. Get an external mic (more below)

On the whole, I think this thing will serve any recording needs you have. Its small, light, and I'm testing battery length right now, but its in the 3 - 4 hr range. If you can afford it, I think its a no-brainer.

However, budget another $100 for a mic. The internal mic has a few issues. It sounds 'muddy' and has low gain for longer distances (8+ ft), and any noise on the case (moving it around, fingers on it) are recorded loudly. So in a field/kirtan situation, it would result in a lot of noise in the recording.

The external mic & stand I linked to earier are excellent. The stand doubles as a hand grip, and you can put the recorder in a pocket/bag & hold the mic out easily.

I'm attaching two recordings, both ~8 -10 ft away, mridanga and karatala, first recording (0006) is the internal mic, second (0007) is the external mic. Levels set to highest setting. Compressed to 360 mp3s from 16 bit wav source.

And yes, my playing is terrible

Ok, I've got the R1 recorder in last week and have been playing with it. I'll post some thoughts & a sample recording.

1. Its small & functional. On the whole its well designed & thought out. It can be operated with one hand (right hand) easily.

2. Hangs off of your computer as a USB drive, no special drivers needed for XP.

3. Due to a limitation, it labels all songs/files as created at the same time on the same date, so you have to keep notes of what song is what, as it also uses a generic song name scheme (R1_xxxx.mp3).

4. A review Madhava posted complained about boot time. I found from power on to recording to be ~ 4-5 seconds. What problem?

5. The level adjustment knob is on the side and tightened to prevent slippage. You have to carefully set the levels at the start of recording.

6. Get an external mic (more below)

On the whole, I think this thing will serve any recording needs you have. Its small, light, and I'm testing battery length right now, but its in the 3 - 4 hr range. If you can afford it, I think its a no-brainer.

However, budget another $100 for a mic. The internal mic has a few issues. It sounds 'muddy' and has low gain for longer distances (8+ ft), and any noise on the case (moving it around, fingers on it) are recorded loudly. So in a field/kirtan situation, it would result in a lot of noise in the recording.

The external mic & stand I linked to earier are excellent. The stand doubles as a hand grip, and you can put the recorder in a pocket/bag & hold the mic out easily.

I'm attaching two recordings, both ~8 -10 ft away, mridanga and karatala, first recording (0006) is the internal mic, second (0007) is the external mic. Levels set to highest setting. Compressed to 360 mp3s from 16 bit wav source.

And yes, my playing is terrible

For those of you interested in prolonging the recording time of your Edirol R1, the following are some notes on building a basic battery pack. The image below shows you a basic connection diagram for a battery pack with eight AA cells.

[attachmentid=1788]

In the diagram above, we're using eight AA cells with 2000mAh capacity and 1.2V voltage. A serial connection adds to the voltage of the setup, a parallel connection adds to the total capacity of the setup. Hence, the setup above gives us four times 2.4V and 2000mAh, or a total of 8000 mAh and 2.4V.

The batteries need some kind of casing. Assuming that you will want to charge them in your regular battery charger, taping them together isn't a very convenient option. Most well-equipped electronics stores will offer you a selection of battery holders, such as the one below:

[attachmentid=1791]

I've decided to go with four holders of two with wires and connect them together, since they already offer the right serial connection, giving you 2.4V, sparing me from having to solder anything. Four of these side by side fit conveniently on the back-side of the device. Edirol R1 measures 99.25 (W) x 134 (D) x 30.2 (H) mm. Four AA-cells in a case such as we have above measure approximately 55 (W) x 72 (D) x 18 (H) mm, two of them a total of 110 x 72 x 18, a convenient fit on the back-side of the device.

If you do get a ready-made battery holder, you'll want to ensure that the connections are properly made to produce the desired voltage and capacity. Otherwise, re-solder the connections to fit your purpose.

Then, we'll need a way to hook this up with the device. A regular DC-adapter should do the trick. They come both with and without a cable, again, at all well-equipped electronics stores.

[attachmentid=1789]

Connect the cable appropriately with the + and - of your battery setup. Positive should connect to the outer part of the DC plug, negative to the inner part. Cables come in many flavors, but generally white/red is positive and black/blue is negative.

The basic setup is ready, and you should now be able to record four times as longer with your Edirol R1 as you would with the two batteries it generally takes. If four hours are what two batteries give, this setup should give you up to sixteen hours of uninterrupted recording time. To make it fancier and less exposed, you may want to brush up on the exterior of the battery housing, and perhaps rig suction pads to it to attach to the back-side of the device for added convenience when carrying.

Of course this will work with any other player as well. Just check the DC-input voltage of your player. If, for example, it needs 5V, you'll need to have four batteries in a serial connection and two parallel to get the required power. (Like this.)

And a disclaimer in closing; while the notes above should work as intended, of course I cannot be held responsible for any damage this may cause to your device.

For those of you interested in prolonging the recording time of your Edirol R1, the following are some notes on building a basic battery pack. The image below shows you a basic connection diagram for a battery pack with eight AA cells.

[attachmentid=1788]

In the diagram above, we're using eight AA cells with 2000mAh capacity and 1.2V voltage. A serial connection adds to the voltage of the setup, a parallel connection adds to the total capacity of the setup. Hence, the setup above gives us four times 2.4V and 2000mAh, or a total of 8000 mAh and 2.4V.

The batteries need some kind of casing. Assuming that you will want to charge them in your regular battery charger, taping them together isn't a very convenient option. Most well-equipped electronics stores will offer you a selection of battery holders, such as the one below:

[attachmentid=1791]

I've decided to go with four holders of two with wires and connect them together, since they already offer the right serial connection, giving you 2.4V, sparing me from having to solder anything. Four of these side by side fit conveniently on the back-side of the device. Edirol R1 measures 99.25 (W) x 134 (D) x 30.2 (H) mm. Four AA-cells in a case such as we have above measure approximately 55 (W) x 72 (D) x 18 (H) mm, two of them a total of 110 x 72 x 18, a convenient fit on the back-side of the device.

If you do get a ready-made battery holder, you'll want to ensure that the connections are properly made to produce the desired voltage and capacity. Otherwise, re-solder the connections to fit your purpose.

Then, we'll need a way to hook this up with the device. A regular DC-adapter should do the trick. They come both with and without a cable, again, at all well-equipped electronics stores.

[attachmentid=1789]

Connect the cable appropriately with the + and - of your battery setup. Positive should connect to the outer part of the DC plug, negative to the inner part. Cables come in many flavors, but generally white/red is positive and black/blue is negative.

The basic setup is ready, and you should now be able to record four times as longer with your Edirol R1 as you would with the two batteries it generally takes. If four hours are what two batteries give, this setup should give you up to sixteen hours of uninterrupted recording time. To make it fancier and less exposed, you may want to brush up on the exterior of the battery housing, and perhaps rig suction pads to it to attach to the back-side of the device for added convenience when carrying.

Of course this will work with any other player as well. Just check the DC-input voltage of your player. If, for example, it needs 5V, you'll need to have four batteries in a serial connection and two parallel to get the required power. (Like this.)

And a disclaimer in closing; while the notes above should work as intended, of course I cannot be held responsible for any damage this may cause to your device.

For those of you interested in prolonging the recording time of your Edirol R1, the following are some notes on building a basic battery pack. The image below shows you a basic connection diagram for a battery pack with eight AA cells.

[attachmentid=1788]

In the diagram above, we're using eight AA cells with 2000mAh capacity and 1.2V voltage. A serial connection adds to the voltage of the setup, a parallel connection adds to the total capacity of the setup. Hence, the setup above gives us four times 2.4V and 2000mAh, or a total of 8000 mAh and 2.4V.

The batteries need some kind of casing. Assuming that you will want to charge them in your regular battery charger, taping them together isn't a very convenient option. Most well-equipped electronics stores will offer you a selection of battery holders, such as the one below:

[attachmentid=1791]

I've decided to go with four holders of two with wires and connect them together, since they already offer the right serial connection, giving you 2.4V, sparing me from having to solder anything. Four of these side by side fit conveniently on the back-side of the device. Edirol R1 measures 99.25 (W) x 134 (D) x 30.2 (H) mm. Four AA-cells in a case such as we have above measure approximately 55 (W) x 72 (D) x 18 (H) mm, two of them a total of 110 x 72 x 18, a convenient fit on the back-side of the device.

If you do get a ready-made battery holder, you'll want to ensure that the connections are properly made to produce the desired voltage and capacity. Otherwise, re-solder the connections to fit your purpose.

Then, we'll need a way to hook this up with the device. A regular DC-adapter should do the trick. They come both with and without a cable, again, at all well-equipped electronics stores.

[attachmentid=1789]

Connect the cable appropriately with the + and - of your battery setup. Positive should connect to the outer part of the DC plug, negative to the inner part. Cables come in many flavors, but generally white/red is positive and black/blue is negative.

The basic setup is ready, and you should now be able to record four times as longer with your Edirol R1 as you would with the two batteries it generally takes. If four hours are what two batteries give, this setup should give you up to sixteen hours of uninterrupted recording time. To make it fancier and less exposed, you may want to brush up on the exterior of the battery housing, and perhaps rig suction pads to it to attach to the back-side of the device for added convenience when carrying.

Of course this will work with any other player as well. Just check the DC-input voltage of your player. If, for example, it needs 5V, you'll need to have four batteries in a serial connection and two parallel to get the required power. (Like this.)

And a disclaimer in closing; while the notes above should work as intended, of course I cannot be held responsible for any damage this may cause to your device.

Following up on this, the Edirol has now arrived. Quick specs from the battery life test.

Two 2200 mAh batteries. 4 hours 20 minutes of recording time in 16-bit WAV with plugin-powered mic, recorded from headphones placed next to the mic with medium input levels. No effects used. Batteries were six months old, recharged perhaps 20 times in the past, so pretty fresh still. On top of that, 2 GB worth files copied from the CF card to the PC and a thorough browse of every switch and option in the device. Not bad.

From an email from a friend. Thought it worth sharing:

how's the edirol working "in the field" Madhava?

I was in Bristol (England) today, my nearest City, and found this 20GB MP3 recorder in a second hand shop for £100. External power supply socket and external mic socket. Much more within my budget than the edirol and no messing about with mini discs. No WAV recording but I'll still get a whole 24-prahar nam jagya kirtan on one machine. I'll take my old mini disc too for recording backstage in the kirtaniyas' rooms. Lets hope that the machine actually works!

How is the edirol working out in practice Madhava?

Archos Jukebox MP3 Recorder is a good machine. I am using it from last 2 years. Even their new model Archos Gmini is better. when recording with highest quality, it gives output very near to CD quality. But they all need a external mic with amplifies (Archos has one), otherwise they will pickup some sound of it's internal harddisk.

Edirol is doing good... As good as you can get with the sound systems that are in place here!