Effecting change in individuals - Good or bad, necessary?

Isn't spiritual life all about effecting transformation, guiding oneself towards particular ideals, sacrificing elements obstructing one's course?

The way I see it, allowing oneself to evolve and to be changed in the company of sadhus is one of the pivotal aspects of the Gaudiya tradition.

Granted, there are elements in our basic psychological makeup that aren't going to change. Yet, there are other things we've picked up on the way, burdens we can let go of, changing for the better.

Practically, the only reason I can think of for seeking the company of sadhus is their ability to transform, with their words and their example, to uplift hearts, to illuminate intellects, to pull us one more step upwards on our quest for prema.

Absolutely- there was a bengali sangeet that went-" one moment in the company of a sadhu can right the course of the ship of your life" and I have certainly experienced that. I have found that I am basically powerless to change myself but the most pronounced experiences in my "sadhana life" have been facilitated by time among sadhus.

I don't see anything more powerful for effecting change in a person than the influence of other people.
For example, my whole life completely changed it's whole course in a most dramatic way when I came under the influence of a military comrade who was a disciple of Swami Vishnudevananda. He redirected my whole life in a most profound way and steered me into the world of Eastern philosophy.

Books can also change one's whole way of thinking and his faith and beliefs.
Books are a literal form of someone else's thinking.
My first connection with Krishna consciosness was with the books of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. The books alone transformed me completely and brought me into the Krishna consciousness movement. Then again, in the the movement there are certain devotees and the things that they have said that affected me most profoundly.

As well, Madhava and some of the other members here have given me a whole new outlook on the siddha pranali concept and indeed my views and opinions have undergone a lot of transformation in ways that are somewhat of a deviation from ISKCON philosophy.

I personally believe in freedom. I live that ideal with the way I raise my children.
I don't try to program them or indoctrinate them into the Hare Krishna cult. If they take to it, I want that to be their choice and their desire. I don't believe to impose anything on anyone, no matter how much I love them and care for them.

I think that devotees of other parivars should be free to frequent ISKCON temples and associate with ISKCON devotees and express their views openly. It is up to the individual to accept whatever conception that strikes their inner chord. I don't believe in strict martial policing of religious conceptions. ISKCON/ Gaudiya Math should not rule by force but by the power of their own conceptions.

We have not been taught to disrespect devotees of other parivars. They should be respected and offered all due regards for their aspirations in devotional service to Lord Hari.

Let everyone present their own views and let the people decide for themselves.

People change people. That has been proven so many times and in so many ways.
That is the whole principle behind the concept of sadhu sanga.

I think you are talking about two different things here.

No one can force change on another. One has to be willing to open up, to be affected, to consider accepting what the sadhu offers.

Often trying to force change on someone unwilling simply hardens their position--and their very heart. Trust is nurtured by the respect inherent in not trying to do some kind of hard sell preaching.

But when one simply lives as an example of their faith, and demonstrates the blissful nature of that experience, it causes those around them to become curious and open to finding out more.

Then they can be affected and changed by the relationship, in their own time and at their own pace.

(Please note that I did not follow the original quote from the other discussion, so I apologize if I lack the full context.)

You can take a horse to the river but you can not make him drink!

While that is true, I have twice had experience of the effect that sanga can have without any knowledge or desire for it on my part.
You go somewhere, hear a talk, eat a little sweet, and the next day your head is different- heart is different. Sometimes you don't notice the effect for a few years. By then it is too late. What to do?
You wake up a cow-worshipping, mud and twig wearing, non-meat-eating bona-fide aspiring western-born Gaudiya.

The spiritual athlete often changes the color of his clothes,
and his mind remains gray and Loveless.
He sits inside a shrine room all day,
so that the Guest (Lord) has to go outdoors and praise the rocks !

Or he drills holes in his ears, his beard grows
enormous and matted,
people mistake him for a goat...

He goes out into wilderness areas, strangles his impulses,
and makes himself neither male nor female...

He shaves his skull, puts his robe in an orange vat,
reads the Bhagavad-Gita, and becomes a terrific talker.

Kabir says: Actually you are going in a hearse to the country of
death,
bound hand and foot!

***

Friend, please tell me what I can do about this world
I hold to, and keep spinning out!

I gave up seven clothes, and wore a robe,
but I noticed one day the cloth was well woven !

So I bought some burlap, but I still
Throw it elegantly over my left shoulder!

I pulled back my sexual longings,
and now I discover that I'm angry a lot!

I gave up rage, and now I notice
that I am greedy all day!

I worked hard at dissolving the greed,
and now I am proud of myself!

When the mind wants to break its link with the world
It still holds on to one thing!

Kabir says: Listen my friend!
There are very few that find the Path !

-The Kabir Book, Forty-Four of the Ecstatic Poems of Saint Kabir
by Robert Bly

******

uttiSThata jAgrata
prApya varAn nibodhata
kSurasya dhArA nizitA duratyayA
durgaM pathastat kavayo vadanti

(Kathopanishad 1.3.14)

"Arise! Awake! Attain the highest Wisdom
from approaching the God Realized Saints.

The Saints describe That Path
to be as impassable as a razor's edge,
which is sharpened and difficult to tread upon."

QUOTE(anuraag @ Jul 23 2005, 09:37 PM)

QUOTE

No one can force change on another. One has to be willing to open up, to be affected, to consider accepting what the sadhu offers.

You can take a horse to the river but you can not make him drink!

The life of 'Dogen', the founder of the Soto Zen school is wonderful in regards to his spiritual journey of seeking masters and his enlightenment.

I'll post a brief account if anyone is interested.