Taking a Chaturmasya Vrata - Fasting from certain varieties of topics

Now that Chaturmasya is on its way, I'd like to, as an experiment, try fasting from IGM-related topics at Gaudiya Discussions for the duration of the four months.

With this, I would hope that people would fill their daily quotas of discussion with topics that are more directly relevant with the teachings of the Goswamis and the nectar of the worship of Radha-Krishna.

Would that be welcome? Yes, no? Why?

The poll is open for three days, countdown starts now.

Radhe Radhe!

For Chaturmasya I have focused more time for study as well as more sadhana. I have also seen a need to focus on aspects of life which will bring more determination for seva and Vaisnava sanga... this leads me to desiring little discussion on topics relating to the negatives of IGM or any aspiring Vaisnavas. I hope this not to be just a focus for Chaturmasya but for my life.

I hope everyone is doing well.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Topics on Iskcon Gaudiya Math don’t have to be necessarily on the opposite side of relevant discussions on the teachings of the Gosvamis and the nectar worship of Radha Krsna. If they can't be on the same side, then the problem may be with the discussions, not with IGM.

Most of the time they seem to be in the less relevant section and tend to incite an atmosphere rather inconducive for respect towards fellow Vaishnavas, thereby negatively effecting the overall atmosphere.

Moreover, this isn't an IGM focused discussion board, most of the members aren't adherents of either group. I therefore don't really see why they should feature that prominently here. They seem to always be the most popular discussions, while topics that are actually directly relevant are practically neglected, especially by those more actively preoccupied with IGM-topics.

I am a religious free-marketer. Krishna is in control.

I should hope that everyone who is increasing their bhajan is mining for jewels that they will distribute to their friends and to the needy when they come back to the surface.

Other than that, for many people, for better or worse, Iskcon and the Gaudiya Math are the only reference, or the most significant reference point, for Vaishnavism. I tend to accept that as a good thing. As a matter of fact, I was just thinking that the more idiotic and shortsighted Iskcon leadership, the better that is for us.

At the same time, the more sane and reasonable Iskcon leadership is, the better that is for the entire world. So where can we go wrong?

Jai Radhe!

And I voted, "No we shouldn't."

vaiSNava-saGgete mon Anandita anukkhan
jäte hoy krishna-parasaìga

"My mind always finds joy in devotee company, for they are constantly talking about Krishna."

Give me a crabby, depressed, angry or otherwise imperfect devotee. Just don't give me a hypocrite.

By which I mean: Even if I die without having convinced one person that there is a better way to do Krishna consciousness than the IGM way, then God help me, that too is Krishna's will.

I voted No. I simply avoid participating in topics that are not of
my Vraja Rasika enjoyment. But let others follow their choice.

That is why I suggested rating of the topics.

I concur..
And I also feel that the reason these topics get the most activity is because of peoples need to 'process' these issues, which obviously is a real need.

If you want people to stop these discussions here I would suggest you have to put and out and out bann on them and then perhaps to fulfill that need an alternative forum would eventually spring up which allows that to help people 'process' these topics etc.

To catagorize those who have a need to process these issues as being 'difficult' or 'trouble-makers' just doesn't cut it. These are very real very meaningful issues for people who have given nearly a lifetime of service in various Gaudiya institutions or camps.

Some here who have diksha are relatively new comers to these issues and cannot claim to have the answers for everyone. I also believe some of these newcomers cannot claim to represent the 'Traditional Gaudiyas' as much as it may seem.

Perhaps there needs to be another Forum which allows more of a freeflowing type of debate in this regard that will allow devotees to process these issues in a mature respectful adult manner.

There is obviously a need for that, otherwise it would not be such a focus here and if the MODS here don't want it fine, take a stance and stick to it..

shanti

With regards to processing IGM issues, may I suggest that, if after the same issues have been chewed on five times over the processor finds no resolution but only finds a need to keep on processing, then it may be that he or she should look for other ways to remedy the situation.

Some topics go on ad nauseam, same old topics are rehashed over and over again, much of the time contributing nothing new at all to anyone's understanding. What good will such processing do? How will it help anyone with their need?

The fact of the matter is that I am deeply frustrated by the fact that so many people display seemingly so little interest in topics that are of direct relevance in discussing the teachings of the Goswamis, the ways of bhajan and the nectar of Radha-Krishna.

Some are interested in discussing IGM. Others are discussing contemporary issues that are somehow relevant. These topics are all so very important, and so many of the themes that people should really be spending time understanding do not seem to be all that much of interest.

Perhaps I am hoping, and I suspect in vain, that if such topics would disappear, then people would spend more time on that which is truly of essence. Then again, that is in all likelihood an utopian dream, and all that would come of it would be silence.

With the exception of Tapati's thoughtful reply, I did not even get a single direct reply to an earlier post of mine where I brought some of this up. That left me rather disheartened.

This may not be unwelcome to Srimati Radharani,
Who feels to be fortunate to have the 'false prestige'
that even if She had ever been smeared or slandered
as a lewd woman running after the Dark Paramor !

(see Padyavali)

Namaskar and Jai Radhe, Dear Madhavananda-Da
I can only speak for myself and say due to my novice and beginner status and unrefined intellect, many of the nectarean topics that you and other very advanced sadhakas post are totally out of ken for me.
I would like to have something relevant to say to your posts, but don't always due only to my juvenile state of mind.
So, those posts that most get me going are posts about practical Puja Vidya and Kriya and the daily practices of the Vaisnavas whom I may join someday.
Maybe there is the factor of time- that we (I) must eventually come up to your (Jagat's, Advaita's, etc) level for anything to say more than "wow, really?"
That's it-
please keep posting, I may even eventually have something to say!
Jai Nitai, Jai Gaura, Jai Radhe!

I did not actually mean for everyone to just focus on the "nectar oozing out to all directions" types of topics. Topics of puja-vidya and so forth are all directly and positively related with the bhakti-angas we all seek to engage in, and therefore, exactly the kinds of topics people should be working on to further their practice of bhakti-sadhana.

I voted 'yes', and if push came to shove I would be very glad to vote 'yes' on banning IGM topics outright. Why just for four months? We simply do not need to discuss those issues anymore, as there is more than enough in the archives for anyone who has the time to look around. There is more to life than IGM.

Madhava, I read your post in the other thread and I support you fully. I didn't reply because I was not around then. I would like to support you in your dream. It's not utopian at all, it is a very reasonable and productive desire. I think we all need to contribute to make it happen.

And I'm sure that it will happen the very moment we quit discussing and rehashing these same old tired IGM boring topics that lead practically nowhere.

QUOTE

There is more to life than IGM

I voted yes.

It seems such topics always lead to offenses and hurt feelings on both sides. Why go there? It doesn't seem necessary to your main goals here.

Even on my forum, we don't allow the various debates on lineage, diksha being authentic or not, etc.

If the tides don't turn with the poll, and if people need they should have a facility for IGM etc. topics, I don't mind setting up something separate for them. I personally don't have the time or the energy to moderate such a thing. Perhaps an unmoderated forum?

I personally think that when people are no longer allowed to question religious historical facts and lineage issues it will be a sad day in hell...and is a breeding ground for nothing short of 'mind-control', 'brainwashing', and fanaticism etc.

That said I do believe that any discussions in this regard should be done in a mature, adult manner and I honestly think that was occurring here with the 'Gaps in the Saraswata parampara' thread a short time ago...however certain people protested and the thread was shut down.

That thread brought forth some very good, thought provoking posts and again I thought was being discussed in a very mature manner. If the kitchen is too hot then people should stay out of it, simple as that, and not hold so much power over those who want to discuss such issues.

It's like how many Vaishnavas go to a Muslim site and demand they stop slamming Hindus..? none I hope..they just stay away. How many 'Traditional Gaudiyas' go to IGM forums and demand they shut down threads that support IGM conclusions regarding Gaudiyaism, Guru-Tattva etc.?

I think the majority of people who are against these issues being discussed are people who don't understand them what-so-ever, and frankly are not well enough versed to even discuss properly. They just 'BELIEVE' in a certain way and if something is against that belief they get all twisted and complain. Of couse there are some here who are Traditionals who are just bored and tired of the discussions and that is their right to stay away as well.

There will always be people out there who want you to stop discussions that may go against their religious feelings and convictions, does that mean they should not be allowed? Certainly if Madhava does not want them to occur here so be it, like I said yesterday take a stance and stick to it ..bann them altogether.

But please stop allowing them to a certain degree and when they get to the point where peoples convictions are questioned too much you put a stop to it.

Most who we consider 'Saints' or the founders in various religious traditions around the world today were very outspoken about the religious outlooks and teachings of the time they were born in, Certainly Sri Chaitanya himself, the Buddha, Ramanuja, Sankara.

Indian religion itself is one steeped in a tradition of debate amongst the various schools of Sanantan dharma and outside (Buddhism, Jainism etc) now if that tradition was not allowed and debates were stopped because peoples beliefs were hurt how would we have gotten to where we are today.

namaskar,

jijaij

I believe there are a great many trad. Gaudiyas or wanna-be trad. Gaudiyas who feel those topics are going on ad nauseam. This suggestion has little to do with IGM advocates. It has to do with better accommodating thos trad. Gaudiyas who are eager to explore the vast world of trad. Gaudiyaism instead of raveling in an antithesis of what once was.

Imagine if there was a Christian discussion forum with a section of members who once were Jehovah's Witnesses. The forum was created to explore the depths of Christian theology and tradition, the sayings of the Desert Fathers, the teachings of Thomas Aquinas and so forth. Rather than taking interest in those, people would spend their time reviewing the mistakes in the latest Watch Tower and the motivations of Mr. Russell. In a very Biblical fashion, of course. With the occasional "hee hee" and "jeez do they really believe that".

In me, both scenarios bring about predominantly one thought. "Get a life and move on." There is so much in the trad. Gaudiya world out there to explore. Why not take interest in that? Why obsess over something you were once affiliated with, perhaps even decades ago - why not move from the largely irrelevant antithesis to the real and relevant positive world?

I think IGM discussions are coming up as IGM ideas are being pushed, especially "I" ones, less so GM ones. If it is in someone's agenda to prove the superiority or at least equality of one of their gurus to traditional ones, or if we have to be reminded all the time that we are in their debt, or how great their achievements were/are, inspite of everything that is well-known about their ways of achieving them, then things get out of balance, and once in a while there needs to be a statement of fact again, which unfortunately is not something beautiful.

When I stay in the holy Dham in the community of vaishnavas I like, then IGM simply does not exist. It is seen as a fringe thing, that has its rights to be, but has little to do with what tradition is about. Yet, when we live in the West, we suddenly have to explain and rationalize our natural state of being, we are immersed in controversy, and that has its right too. It's part of what is, even if it's not as happy and "virginal" as the state of being in traditional vaishnava sanga in the holy Dham.

As everyone is the way he or she is, with his/her history and all, there is no other way than to accept that, or excommunicate oneself from this opportunity of congregation. There are some among us who excommunicate themselves from us by simply shutting up and attending to bhajan and their jobs. That's the other solution. The third way is to idealize everthing, not see god and bad in anything, transcend all, just talk lila-katha. This reminds me of a conclusion in Gita, that the wise is not perturbed by the opposites of duality while still enduring them. So it appears we have the choice to endure each other, since we are brought together by a higher ideal, by he/she who is the holy name.

Ceterum censeo: Nobody can change somebody else, somebody else's experience, somebody else's being. That is for me the most fundamental principle of community. Otherwise love has no basis, nothing to grow on. Love requires freedom, coercion kills it. Jai Nitai.

A further clarification on my previous post on IGM topics.

There are people who have issues they need to have clarified to be able to move on. That's all fine and dandy. Clear them up and move on.

Then there are people who just keep going on and on about the same old topics. That's where it gets boring, and that's where I see the main problem lies.

OK, you've now clarified that Bhaktisiddhanta maybe didn't have diksha, that their parampara-conception is a bit odd, and that many of their views don't match with the traditions. What else? Do you want to keep on going about it in hopes that you would be more and more fully convinced that they aren't the real thing for you? Don't you have any positive attraction towards the traditions, isn't there any conviction in you in their having the real thing? Are you uncertain of their having the real thing despite affiliating yourself with them, and do you therefore need to go on proving how "the other option" at least most definitely isn't the real thing, and therefore your thing must be as real as it gets?

And while I speak in the second person, this isn't individually directed to any particular poster, but towards a trend.

The problem, as I see it, is that some people just keep going on and on and on like some damn Duracell bunnies about IGM this and IGM that, without any real objective in moving on beyond topics of IGM.

And I wouldn't mind as much an occasional IGM topic if I saw it went in balance with the rest - if the thread activity was somewhat on par with other threads, and the participants' history displayed an equally keen interest on the other side of the fence, on the theology and practices of the trad. Gaudiya way.

I vote to bann all IGM posts from here then Madhava..just do it!

Not banning them has seemingly got you stuck in debating if IGM should be discussed or not ad nauseum

just bann them and let the cards fall where they may...

come on pull the trigger!

shanti

I have visited for a moment brajas news and editorial contribution, there I found in the end this quote by the Jiva Institute's associates' guruji



I think we all should get some cows around us, serve some cows everyday. Being with cows, at least with Swiss cows (most milk-cows in America are Swiss like the Brown Swiss, or Simmenthal the reddish ones, okay the Holstein once are not Swiss) .. I am not chauvinist with this thing about them being Swiss, it just implies that they have tendentially a sweet character... so being with cows means some of their qualites, or at least attributes are rubbing off, perhaps not for long, but some experience comes, some revelation of the nature of things, and always an entrance into Krsna-lila. Radha-Krsna-lila is not for nothing set in the world of cows, even if they seem to play an accidental role.

Cows are strongly hierarchy oriented, and that hierarchy can change as when the health status of the cows involved change. If one starts to limp just a little because she hit her foot on a stone, that cow sinks a little in her chances to get the better grass to eat, she has to suffer a little more to be pushed aside by a more dominant one, one that might have been below her yesterday. So it is a very intricate game of give and take. Just a bit like we are here at GD

Work with cows is one of the hardest types of work to do. It needs extreme energy and determination. Cows are extremely self-willed (eigenwillig) while at the same time having that strong herd-instinct. Imagine you have to move a bunch of say 40 cows up a hill onto their midday pasture. You do not just push behind and then all of them move in the way you want them too. Depending on whether they know the way or not, and the way is easy or not, it can take an hour or more to get them to walk an otherwise short distance of a few hundred meters/yards, and it requires a lot of yelling, running, and some threatening too. You know, even Krsna and Balaram use sticks, what are they doing with those sticks? They need them to orient the cattle drive in the right direction. Poor guys they are, because calves are even worse than cows. Perhaps you may imagine calves as babies or kids, but they are as naughty as hell. The sense of motherhood in cows and their need to be milked makes them more docile, while the calves are wild like a kindergarten full of kids.

I am glad when I do not have to deal with calves or young cattle (one year olds) a lot. But to work with cows, like to drive them home, tie them and milk them, is extremely satisfying and a source of great joy. Milking is an erotic play in itself. The person who milks the cow is actually the calf-substitute, and the cow just mistakes you for her calf. The trust and confidence you feel flwoing from the cow in those moments is overwhelming. Her mothering instinct as a universal force concentrating itself there in the milk you get, apparently as a gift... (The sad part is of course that their trust is being dishonored in the end...)

just reminiscences... and all of this is again rationalization that does not come close to the experience itself of being so close to the cow who lets you milk her...

Very insightful, Nabadip! I've often wondered about Sastriji's affection for the cows and can now see that not only are they a natural antidote to the Human Problem but they also replicate our little world so nicely: Swiss cows, ahimsa, looking for more milk and less crap--yup, we're all there...But where is the cowherd boy?

Yes your right lbcVisnudas

shanti

I agree with Jijaji-
"Pull the trigger!"

For everyone's information: On topics concerning ISKCON or Gaudiya Math

[attachmentid=1719]

Because, (happiness) is a warm gun, mama (bang bang shoot shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun, yes it is (bang bang shoot shoot)

Happiness is a warm, yes it is, Gun!
(bang bang shoot shoot)

Well don't you know that happiness (happiness) is a warm gun, (is a warm gun, yeah).

1968 Northern Songs, Ltd.

Bang Bang!

All Your Base Are Belong To Us

Then why not wisen up and be done w/ IGM all together? Its your site and you just said that there are few adherents here so why even let it be discussed if it bothers you all so darn much? Is it because you actually enjoy bashing IGM most of the time? I think so.

Radhe Radhe!

I think the reason for allowing the dynamic and discussions to continue, to a degree, is that you can't deny the existence of those institutions and the role they have played in ones own spiritual evolution nor the historical context they play within Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Like it or not most Westerners know Gaudiya Vaisnavism simply through the images, both good and bad, of ISKCON's activities and teachings.

You can’t rip out pages of a history book because you don't like what transpired. At the same time Gaudiya Vaisnavism, especially for a practitioner, is a living and breathing dynamic of ones very existence so we must move on from what or where we were to what and who we are today and, most importantly, where we want to be tomorrow.

Rasaraja dasa

QUOTE

Then why not wisen up and be done w/ IGM all together? Its your site and you just said that there are few adherents here so why even let it be discussed if it bothers you all so darn much? Is it because you actually enjoy bashing IGM most of the time? I think so.

brajamani,

Regardless of how much pleasure one gets from bashing IGM, I think your a bit late here bro...

The trigger's already been pulled (bang bang shoot shoot)

shanti

I dont see any evidence of Madhava 'enjoying' bashing IGM, he is usually the one to come in and try and stop any bashing (Rasaraja too)

If anyone were to be said to 'enjoy' that bashing I guess it would be myself and some others here

but honestly it's not that I ever 'enjoyed' bashing IGM, I just am against alot of their misrepresentation of Sri Chaitanya and things get heated and the mud gets tossed
(but let's not go there hey?)

shanti

Madhava and Mods are great.

Its people like you that seem to thrive on it that bothers me.

Makes you appear no better than what you all claim to be against..in fact I find it worse.

SORRY BIG BROTHER.

I think that all talk about IGM should be completely banned from this forum.
Because, they usually lead to offensive statements by some who are very antagonistic to IGM.
This forum is owned and operated by devotees outside the IGM paradigm, so the topics of IGM should be completely banned from this forum. Most members here have nothing favorable to say about IGM topics and in order to prevent the occurence of aparadha such topics should be completely banned.
Absolute and total exclusion of all IGM topics would be an improvement to the previous quality of this forum.

Party politics and seperatism always lead to offensive statements when the topic of IGM comes up, so the best thing is to just completely outlaw all references altogether.

This forum should exclusively cater to the "traditional" followers and topics of IGM should be strictly prohibited.

QUOTE(brajamani @ Jul 26 2005, 07:46 PM)

Madhava and Mods are great.

Its people like you that seem to thrive on it that bothers me.

Makes you appear no better than what you all claim to be against..in fact I find it worse.

Hey I was just trying to be a big boy and admit that it was myself and a few others who seemingly 'enjoyed' it, not that we do, but just disagree with a lot of things and the heat gets turned up.

We are trying to let it go on the public forum here, you seem to want to rehash it. BTW this is not an IGM forum where they make the rules and I think Madhava is being very tolerant of many of those supporters by disallowing the traditional Gaudiyas here to bash them.

Certainly we have witnessed over and over certain people from the other side come and attack things like siddha pranali and other traditional Gaudiya beliefs, I could easily name several but will not.

I myself will adhere to what Madhava wants..

But it's not a one way street Brajamani

shanti