The position of Srila Haridas Thakur -

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Haridasa Thakura lived for some time at Benapol, which was within Jessore district. Every day and night he would chant three hundred thousand Holy Names. At the time, when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu displayed His divine opulences by manifesting Himself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the courtyard af Srivasa Pandita’s house, He was calling his dear devotees: “Haridasa! when those Mohammedans were beating you I was ready to destroy them with My Sudarsana Cakra, but as you were praying for their welfare I was unable to do anything.” [C. B. Madhya 10.42]

Therefore I accepted their blows on My own body. Just see, the scars are still here on My body.” Seeing those marks Haridasa fainted in ecstatic love. Regaining his consciousness he began to praise the Lord of his life, “O Lord Viswambhara, master of the universe, please have mercy on this sinner, who has fallen at Your feet. I have no good qualities and am a vile wretch, rejected by all classes of men. How can I describe Your divine character?” [C. B. Mad 20.58]

Mahamayadevi took initiation in the maha-mantra from Haridasa Thakura and Caitanya Mahaprabhu appointed him as the acarya of the Holy Name.

Dear Vaishnavasji,

Reading this parte of Haridas's Lilas, some questions arose in my mind....

In this passage, the autor shows(in my opnion) a particular Rasa that Srila Haridas Thakur had with Lord Caitanya Deva.
So my point is: the title as a Nama Acarya does not supports that he had established any connectionwith Mahaprabhu in the mood of Vraja-Bhava. Caitanya Deva encarnated to taste the Bhavas of Srimat Radhika towards Sri Krishna. But when the Lila as Yuga-Avatar becomes evident,that Lila is in the mood of Vishnu-Tattva. So if anyone is involved in that Lila; as Advaita Prabhu, Srinivasa and Haridas Thakura, They reciprocate with the Lord and reveals Their mood according to Their eternal connection with the Lord. So in this way ( I think ) Srila Nama-Acarya Haridas Thakur is not a Rasika-acarya in the mood of Vraja, but a Great Vaishnava who came by the order of the Lord(Vishnu) to help to propagate the potency and glories of Hari-nama in His passtime as Yuga-Avatar in Caitanya-Lila.
Any thought ?

PS:"Sorry for my braziliannized-english. I Hope you understand it"

your servant

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In this passage, the autor shows(in my opnion) a particular Rasa that Srila Haridas Thakur had with Lord Caitanya Deva. So my point is: the title as a Nama Acarya does not supports that he had established any connection with Mahaprabhu in the mood of Vraja-Bhava.

Though such a conclusion may be drawn on the basis of that brief discussion, I wouldn't propose that it is the all in all of the mood of Haridas. Reading the 13th chapter of Adi-lila and several other passages from both Caitanya Caritamrita and Caitanya Bhagavata, one could easily conclude the same of Advaita Acarya. However, we do know that there is much more to him than being an instrument in fulfilling the purpose of yuga-dharma. Actually Prabhu Sitanath was very close to Haridas.

In the third chapter of Antya-lila, Kaviraja Gosvami relates Mahaprabhu thinking as follows, having heard the words of Haridas:

tomAra ye lIlA mahA-amRtera sindhu |
mora mano-gocara nahe tAra eka bindu ||
“Your pastimes are like a great ocean of nectar. How could I conceive even of one drop of it?”

eta zuni prabhura mane camatkAra haila |
mora gUDha-lIlA haridAsa kemane jAnila? ||
“Hearing this, Prabhu was astonished in His mind. How has Haridas understood my confidential pastimes?”

Though the context here is in Prabhu's pastimes of sankirtana pracara, it is significant that Prabhu thinks of gudha-lila. It leads me to think about prema-nama sankirtana, which is not exactly only yuga-dharma, since spreading Vraja-prema is not the yuga-dharma of the age of Kali, but rather it is one of the two (categories of) reasons of Prabhu's descent: rAga-mArga bhakti loke karite pracAraNa, while the spreading of yuga-dharma was only incidental and included in the deeper cause of raga-marga pracarana.

Krishnadas spends quite a bit of time discussing the glory of Haridas in the Caitanya Caritamrita -- the entire third and eleventh chapters of Antya-lila. He further says in the third chapter:

haridAsera guNa-gaNa asaGkhya apAra |
keha kona aMze varNe, nAhi pAya pAra ||

“The qualities of Haridas are innumerable and unfathomable! Whoever describes them cannot find a limit to them.”

It is described of the prostitute whom Haridas converted that prema was manifest in her (3.3.141) and she became perfected and celebrated (prasiddha) and a supremely advanced (parama-mahanti) Vaishnavi.

The Caitanya Caritamrita also dedicates an entire chapter to Haridas (Adi 16). Verse 17:

ebe zuna haridAsa-ThAkurera kathA |
yAhAra zravaNe kRSNa pAibe sarvathA ||
"Now, please hear the topics of Srila Haridas Thakura, for by hearing this narration one certainly attains Krishna."

Haridas tasted bhakti-rasa (verse 24):

kSaNeka govinda-nAme nAhika virakti |
bhakti-rase anukSaNa haya nAnA mUrti ||
"He never gave up the chanting of Govinda's names for a moment, and thus bhakti-rasa was always seen embodied in him."

After this verse, Sri Vrindavan Das describes how Haridas manifested the asta-sattvika bhavas in his form.

kakhano karena nRtya ApanA-Apani |
kakhano karena matta-siMha-prAya dhvani ||
kakhano vA uccaiHsvare karena rodana |
aTTa-aTTa mahA-hAsya hAsena kakhana ||
kakhano garjjena ati huGkAra kariyA |
kakhano mUrcchita hai' thAkena pAdiyA ||
kSane alaukika zabda balena DAkiyA |
kSaNe tAi vAkhAnena uttama kariyA ||
azrupAta romaharSa hAsya mUrcchA gharma |
kRSNa-bhakti-vikArera yata Ache marma ||
prabhu haridAsa mAtra nRtye pravezile |
sakala AsiyA tA'na zrI-vigrahe mile ||
"Sometimes he danced alone, and sometimes he roared like a mad lion. Sometimes he cried loudly, and sometimes he laughed loudly. Sometimes he roared loudly, and sometimes he fell to the ground unconscious. Sometimes he would utter some unnatural sounds, for which he would later give some profound meaning. He manifested all the different transformations of Krishna-bhakti like crying, hairs's standing on end, laughing, losing consciousness and perspiring. As soon as Haridas began to dance, these symptoms would all manifest in his body."

Glory to Haridas!

I think Murari-gupta said something about Haridasa's being an incarnation of a Muni-patra?

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Sometimes he danced alone, and sometimes he roared like a mad lion. Sometimes he cried loudly, and sometimes he laughed loudly. Sometimes he roared loudly, and sometimes he fell to the ground unconscious. Sometimes he would utter some unnatural sounds, for which he would later give some profound meaning. He manifested all the different transformations of Krishna-bhakti like crying, hairs's standing on end, laughing, losing consciousness and perspiring. As soon as Haridas began to dance, these symptoms would all manifest in his body."

That is a clear evidence that Srila Haridas Thakura got Krishna-bhakti. But at the same time my point goes on the Idea that; he did not really got that bhava of vrajabasi because if he did so, how could he respect the Lord as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, since Vrajavasis do not have that kind of relationship with Krishna. In my understanding Goura Hari manifests many types of Bhavas. Some time He is Krishna than Gadadhara is Radha so than everthing around Him turns into Sri Vrindavana. Some times He Plays like Lord Vishnu than everthing and whoever is there is dragged into that sweet mood of Vaikunta. Some times He is into the mood of Srimat Radhika and all Her dearest girls friends come along to support that sweet Bhava.Some times He is in the mood of Navadvipa and some of His devotees shows that parental mood towards Him.
So with all this varieties of moods, it is quite possible that every one that were with Caitanya Deva had a particular mood that could help and support whenever Gouranga Deva was in need of a particular ingredient for His immediately-simultaneous-manifestations of Bhava. Just see when He shows His six arms form to Ray Ramananda, all the possible moods were right there. I think that is the mistic about Lord Gouranga deva; He can be at any mood at any time He feels to and all His associates would be ready for anything.
So in this way Srila Haridas Thakura that was Lord Brahma in previous life, could not really goes beyond that Vishnu-relationship even if he may be had attained Krishna-bhakti, (what could be interpreted as Vishnu-bhakti ) what about his Svaroop-sidhi who is him in nitya-lila ?
I'm may be completly wrong, but I never heard that Srila Haridas Thakura had any form in Radha Krishna's Nitya Lila. If there is any I would like to known, that may be part of the answers for my doubts.

Again, thanks to be tolerant with my english.

your servant

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That is a clear evidence that Srila Haridas Thakura got Krishna-bhakti. But at the same time my point goes on the Idea that; he did not really got that bhava of vrajabasi because if he did so, how could he respect the Lord as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, since Vrajavasis do not have that kind of relationship with Krishna.

Well, Krishnadas Kaviraja explained Mahaprabhu's identity as the Supreme Lord right in his Caitanya Caritamrita. Svarupa Damodara states of Him:

yad advaitaM brahmopaniSadi tad apy asya tanu-bhA
ya AtmAntar-yAmI puruSa iti so ’syAMza-vibhavaH
SaD-aizvaryaiH pUrNo ya iha bhagavAn sa svayam ayaM
na caitanyAt krSNAj jagati para-tattvaM param iha

"He whose effulgence is the undivided Brahman of the Upanishads, He whose expansion is the antaryami purusha (Supersoul), He who is Bhagavan possessing the six opulences in full... He is the Caitanya, Krishna, the para-tattva (supreme truth)."

Nevertheless Svarupa Damodara is a suddha-vrajavasi. There is a difference between external mood and internal mood.

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So in this way Srila Haridas Thakura that was Lord Brahma in previous life, could not really goes beyond that Vishnu-relationship even if he may be had attained Krishna-bhakti, (what could be interpreted as Vishnu-bhakti ) what about his Svaroop-sidhi who is him in nitya-lila ?

He was not Brahma the creator of the universe. Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika (93):

"Richika Muni's son Brahma Mahatapah, and Prahlada Maharaja combined to appear as Haridasa Thakur in Lord Caitanya's pastimes."

Richika Muni is the grandfather of Parasurama (viz. Bhagavata 9.16). I have no further information about the identity of Brahma Mahatapah, but certainly he is not Brahma the creator.

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So in this way Srila Haridas Thakura that was Lord Brahma in previous life, could not really goes beyond that Vishnu-relationship even if he may be had attained Krishna-bhakti, (what could be interpreted as Vishnu-bhakti ) what about his Svaroop-sidhi who is him in nitya-lila ?
I'm may be completly wrong, but I never heard that Srila Haridas Thakura had any form in Radha Krishna's Nitya Lila. If there is any I would like to known, that may be part of the answers for my doubts.

I do not know of his Vraja-svarupa. The attachment towards Haridas manifested by many Vraja-rasik devotees is significant. From the third wave of Bhakti Ratnakara:

Srinivasa went to the seashore and saw the tomb of Haridasa Thakura. He paid his heartfelt homage before the tomb by throwing himself on the ground. He remembered the activities of Thakura Haridasa and while recollecting his character, Srinivasa fell again on the ground calling the name of Prabhu Haridasa until he fell unconscious. The devotees who were present at that time consoled Srinivasa in various ways but when Srinivasa again paid his respects to the tomb he again lamented. Seeing the boy so perturbed one of the devotees took Srinivasa to Pandita Gosvami who ordered them both to go to the temple of Jagannatha. (222-230)

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Richika Muni's son Brahma Mahatapah, and Prahlada Maharaja combined to appear as Haridasa Thakur in Lord Caitanya's pastimes."

Dear Madhavajiji thanks for this info about Brahma Mahatapah.
But that same info corroborates the Idea that Srila Haridas Thakur did not had a relationship with Lord Caitanya in the mood of a Vrajavasi. Why I say that, because Pralada Maharaj was not a Krishna bhakta but a Vishnu-bhakta, and possibly Brahma Mahatapah as his own name is saying, sonds more a Vishnu-bhakta's name. I think that Srila Haridas is bound by his svarupa as and eternal Servant of Lord Vishnu as much as Murari Gupta is a Rama Bhakta. But They all came to help Lord Caitanya in His transcendental Lilas.
Again, that are my intuitions only . I could be completely wrong.If so, I would be very happy to known the right version of it.

Your servant

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But that same info corroborates the Idea that Srila Haridas Thakur did not had a relationship with Lord Caitanya in the mood of a Vrajavasi. Why I say that, because Pralada Maharaj was not a Krishna bhakta but a Vishnu-bhakta, and possibly Brahma Mahatapah as his own name is saying, sonds more a Vishnu- bhakta's name.

As far as I know, Prahlada's istadeva was Krishna who appeared in the form of Narasimha to protect him. There are many verses where Prahlada speaks about Krishna. SB 7.5.30: matir na kRSNe parataH svato vA...

Brihat Bhagavatamrita (3.75) relates how Prahlada was more dear to Him than any of the denizens of Vaikunthaloka:

"Prahlada, whose fame as a great devotee is spread throughout the entire universe, is more dear to Lord Krishna than your (Narada's) father (Brahma), than me (Siva), than Garuda, and all the other devotees, and even than the goddess of fortune herself."

Of course Prahlad was not a suddha Vrajavasi, there was aisvarya-jnana-misra in his bhakti.

I would not make much out of the name "Brahma Mahatapah" as being the name of a Vishnu bhakta. Caitanya (consciousness)? Gadadhara (the carrier of club) Pandit? Srivasa (He on whose chest Laksmi resides)? Advaita (non-dual)? Ananta (the thousand-headed divine serpent) Das? The meaning is in the eye of the beholder.

"Bathing in Ganges (suratarangini), Radha and Krishna reach stage of impersonal meditation (nirvikalpa-samadhi)." What does this mean?

I agree, though, that Brahma Mahatapah, like most of the sages in sattvika Puranas, was a Vishnu-bhakta.

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I think that Srila Haridas is bound by his svarupa as and eternal Servant of Lord Vishnu as much as Murari Gupta is a Rama Bhakta. But They all came to help Lord Caitanya in His transcendental Lilas.

No-one in Gaura-lila is bound by his svarupa. Dhananjaya Pandit, the head of our parivar, is Vasudhama the cowherd boy according to Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika. Nevertheless by the grace of Mahaprabhu he is also situated in manjari-bhava. Srivasa Thakura is commonly known to be Narada Muni, but he too has a manjari-svarupa as depicted in Siddha Baba's Gutika. And yes, Murari Gupta is praised as a Rama-bhakta, but nevertheless his Krishna Caitanya Caritamrita reveals his insights to be much beyond those of a Rama-bhakta. I recall hearing that he even wrote some nagari padas!

Vakresvara is identified as Aniruddha of Caturvyuha in Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika, but is also known as Tungavidya Sakhi, the head of Gopal Guru's parivara! Who can fathom the multidimensions of these divine personalities.

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Again, that are my intuitions only . I could be completely wrong.If so, I would be very happy to known the right version of it.

I wonder if much is extensively written of Haridas beyond the descriptions of Caitanya Caritamrita and Caitanya Bhagavata. He was certainly aware of the truth behind the Gaura-avatara. He was present in many assemblies in which confidential topics were discussed, an example being Caitanya Caritamrita, Antya-lila, first chapter. Now some further references.

Caitanya Mangala of Locan Das (Madhya-khanda, song 4):

"1. Srinivasa and his four brothers joyfully sang auspicious songs. Haridasa called out: Hari! Hari! There was a great roar of songs comparing Lord Gaura to the teenage couple of Vraja. Everyone was tossed by waves of ecstatic spiritual love."

Song 12:

"58. When these duties were completed the devotees met again at Lord Gaura's feet. 59-61. At that time the great soul Haridasa who with a joyful heart always chanted Lord Krsna's holy names who was like a bumblebee intoxicated by tasting the pollen of Lord Krsna's lotus feet and who, wild by tasting the nectar of the spiritual rasas, was like a lion cub who unexpectedly came to Navadvipa. Happily smiling Lord Gaura said: He has come. He has come."

Song 13:

"24. At that moment Haridasa suddenly arrived. 25. A glistening jewel necklace rested on his neck and anklets of gold and jewels rested on his reddish feet. 26. The hairs of his body stood erect. His eyes were filled with tears. His body trembled in ecstatic love. He roared in ecstasy. 27. He danced ecstatically before the Lord. The whole world could not contain the bliss and love he felt."

Personally in a situation of uncertainty I prefer to rather make the mistake of over-estimation than the mistake of under-estimation, for over-estimation is flattering even if shown as false, whereas under-estimation may be offending.

I do not know of any conclusive statements declaring the particular rasa or svarupa of Haridas Thakura. I doubt there are any. According to Vrindavan Das Thakura in Caitanya Bhagavata, one who chants the name and glories of Haridas goes to Krishna's abode. Not to Vishnu's abode.

Speaking of the idea of Haridas being Brahma the creator, I just noted that this is supported by Advaita Prakash and possibly Caitanya Mangala (Madhya 13/31) which relates Haridas showing as his form of Brahma. I am uncertain to which form it refers since there is no further description there. Aside the issue, according to Brahma-samhita, Brahmaji was engaged in chanting mantra with kama-bija to gopi-jana vallabha.

In the seventh chapter of Advaita Prakasa, Advaita speaks to Haridas:

"Without attaining the mood of the gopis, one cannot attain the lotus feet of Krishna. By attaining that mood one achieves the greatest treasure."

Haridas replies: "The inconceivable mood of the gopis is not attained by millions of lives of pious activities. Therefore, O Prabhu, please tell me a simple process for conquering maya and attaining Krishna."

Thereafter Advaita Prabhu instructs Haridas about attaining the lotus feet of Radha and Krishna, then initiating him, giving tilaka and tulasi-mala. Advaita Prakasa describes, "As he become intoxicated with love of God, he be came known as the crest jewel among Vaishnavas." Haridas fell in a swoon. As he awakened, Advaita Prabhu blessed him, "May you attain Krishna. Your name is Brahma Haridas." We may thus understand that he was initiated to the path of attaining gopi-bhava.

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As far as I know, Prahlada's istadeva was Krishna who appeared in the form of Narasimha to protect him. There are many verses where Prahlada speaks about Krishna. SB 7.5.30: matir na kRSNe parataH svato vA...

Dear Madhavaji, thanks again for illuminating this forum with so many selected verses in prease of the Ganges-like-glories of Srila Haridas Thakur.

But back to my point; readind the info above I had to go to S.B and I got this wonderful verse where Srila Pralada Maharaj is answering his father's first question. He said:

Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy names, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Vishnu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worshiping with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with body, mind and words) these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of "Krishna"(this word is not in the original Sanskrit)through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knownledge.

In the translations of word by word: pumsa apita- offered by the devotee; visnau- unto Lord Vishnu ( not to anyone else ).
(SB. 7. 5. 23-24)

So according to this verse Srila Pralada Maharaja the son of Hiranyakasipu sonds much more a Dear Vishnu Bhakta.
Besides this, I always heard that whenever Lord Sri Krishna exibit His pastimes as a demon killer He is in the mood of Vishnu. So, that Sri Krishna Vrajendrananda is not completly present at that moment.
Since we do not have a vivide description of Srila Haridas Thakura in Sri Sri Radha Krishna's Nitya-Lila it can be presumed that;( not in the sense we are judging his extraordinary position but rather having a better understanding of his Rasa with Lord Caitanya) why not Srila Haridas Thakur being a Vishnu Bhakta in Caitanya Lila? The evidences that you presented about his glories are unquestionables, but so far, I'm unable to see him beyond a Vishnu-bhakta, probably mixed with a Vrajavasi mood after being so close to lord Caitanya.
After you describing that Srila Haridas Thakur is a combination of Pralada Maharaja that is consedered "by some devotees", to be the perfect exemple of Santa-rasa. And Brahma Mahatapa which actually for me sonds more a Great Shiva's bhakta. With this two Great personalities combined; Lord Caitanya in His Yuga-avatar-lila had a strong worrior called Srila Haridas Thakur that helped Him to spread the unlimited Glories of the Holy names. That is how I can see him so far...

Everthing I may say about Srila Haridas Thakura; is just and insignifcant attempt to have a glimpse of the effulgence of a partical of the dust of his lotus feet.

Please do not stop to illuminate us.

yours
H.

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So according to this verse Srila Pralada Maharaja the son of Hiranyakasipu sonds much more a Dear Vishnu Bhakta.
Besides this, I always heard that whenever Lord Sri Krishna exibit His pastimes as a demon killer He is in the mood of Vishnu. So, that Sri Krishna Vrajendrananda is not completly present at that moment.

vikRditaM vraja-vadhubhir idaM ca viSNoH -- This Vishnu is sporting with the newly married girls of Vraja. (SB 10.33.39) On occasion the name Vishnu is used in the place of Krishna.

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Since we do not have a vivide description of Srila Haridas Thakura in Sri Sri Radha Krishna's Nitya-Lila it can be presumed that;( not in the sense we are judging his extraordinary position but rather having a better understanding of his Rasa with Lord Caitanya) why not Srila Haridas Thakur being a Vishnu Bhakta in Caitanya Lila? The evidences that you presented about his glories are unquestionables, but so far, I'm unable to see him beyond a Vishnu-bhakta, probably mixed with a Vrajavasi mood after being so close to lord Caitanya.

The question is not whether he was a Vishnu-bhakta. The question is what he became in the presence of Gaura-avatara and all other rasika-bhaktas.

If you read the Caitanya Caritamrita and Caitanya Bhagavata, will you find a description of Sri Advaita Acarya in Radha-Krishna lila, or anything related with this? I can't recall of anything like that. However, we know there is an esoteric aspect to Prabhu Sitanath in Vraja, but this is known through the diksa-pranali descending from him, and it is rather confidential in contrast to His identity as Sada-Shiva and Maha-Vishnu.

As for Prahlad being a santa-bhakta, according to Rupa Gosvami's analysis of sattvika-bhava, in santa-rasa a maximum of only two or three sattvika-bhavas can simultaneously manifest. This is dhumayita, the first of the five stages of intensity in the manifestation of sattvika-bhavas. Haridas exhibited all sattvika-bhavas at once in his form.

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Lord Caitanya in His Yuga- avatar-lila had a strong worrior called Srila Haridas Thakur that helped Him to spread the unlimited Glories of the Holy names.

According to Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, sadhu-sanga must be sajatiya, like-minded. If Haridas was a Vishnu-bhakta deprived of entrance into Vraja-rasa, then why did so many Vraja-rasika devotees maintain a very close relationship with Haridas?

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vikRditaM vraja-vadhubhir idaM ca viSNoH -- This Vishnu is sporting with the newly married girls of Vraja. (SB 10.33.39) On occasion the name Vishnu is used in the place of Krishna.

Dear madhavananadaji, the verse above is very significante but we are not discussing how the author uses the names of God (according to his rasika mood ). The word Vishnu means all pervading, since Sri Krishna is always with the Gopis, that is a way for the Gopis to say: "Oh You who are in everyone's( in our ) heart".

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The question is not whether he was a Vishnu-bhakta. The question is what he became in the presence of Gaura-avatara and all other rasika-bhaktas.

The inicial thought was: Srila Pralada Maharaj and Brahma Mahatapa is Srila Haridas Thakura as Vishnu Bhakta in Goura Lila. The fact that Srila Haridas presented differents simptons of divine extases, after met with Lord Gouranga, is praticaly obvious. Who could resist the presence of Lord Gouranga Deva; the incarnation of mercy. That is one way, how Lord Gouranga thinks about Srila Haridas:

eta zuni prabhura mane camatkAra haila |
mora gUDha-lIlA haridAsa kemane jAnila? ||

“Hearing this, Prabhu was astonished in His mind. How has Haridas understood my confidential pastimes?”

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If you read the Caitanya Caritamrita and Caitanya Bhagavata, will you find a description of Sri Advaita Acarya in Radha-Krishna lila, or anything related with this?

No. And that is why I have been asking you the same thing about Srila Haridas. They( Advaita and Haridas ) all are in the category of Visnu-tattva and Jiva-tattva. In relation of Their understanding about Goura-Lila and Krishna Lila that doesn't surprise me. Lord Shiva and Lord Vishu combined is Advaita Prabhu. So They(Advaita and Haridas) do have access to all kinds of transcendental information and subsequetly the ecstasy derived from that come along, especialy if the object of meditation is present,as, in this case, Lord Caitanya.

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As for Prahlad being a santa-bhakta, according to Rupa Gosvami's analysis of sattvika-bhava, in santa-rasa a maximum of only two or three sattvika-bhavas can simultaneously manifest. This is dhumayita, the first of the five stages of intensity in the manifestation of sattvika-bhavas. Haridas exhibited all sattvika-bhavas at once in his form.

That is how Srila Prahlada Maharaja is discribed:

This boy Prahlada is the killer of my brother, for he has given up his family to engage in the devitional service of the enemy, Lord Vishnu, like a menial servant.

Purport:

Hiranyakasipu considered his son Prahlada Maharaja to be the killer of his brother because Prahlada Maharaj was engaged in the devotional service of Lord Vishnu. In other words, Prahlada Maharaja would be elevated to sarupya libaration, and in that sense he resembled Lord Vishnu. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja was to be killed by Hiranyakasipu. Devotees, Vaishnavas, attain the liberations of sarupya, salokya, sarsti and samipya, whereas the Mayavadis are supposed to attain the libaration known as sayujya. Sayujia-mukti, however, is not very secure, whereas sarupya-mukti, salokya-mukti, sarsti-mukti are most certain.
Although the servants of Lord Vishnu, Narayana, in the Vaikuntha planets are equally situated with the Lord, the devotees there know very well that the Lord is the master whereas they are servants.
(SB. 7.5.35)

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According to Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, sadhu-sanga must be sajatiya, like-minded. If Haridas was a Vishnu-bhakta deprived of entrance into Vraja-rasa, then why did so many Vraja-rasika devotees maintain a very close relationship with Haridas?

No one can say that Srila Haridas was deprived of entrance into Vraja-rasa. Srila Advaita Prabhu is the one who was guiding Srila Haridas to Vraja-lila and both have strong-trace of Vishnu-bhaktas. Nevertheless the association of any pure Bhakta is always appreciated by the assembly of devotees. Just read what you posted :

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In the seventh chapter of Advaita Prakasa, Advaita speaks to Haridas:

"Without attaining the mood of the gopis, one cannot attain the lotus feet of Krishna. By attaining that mood one achieves the greatest treasure."

Haridas replies: "The inconceivable mood of the gopis is not attained by millions of lives of pious activities. Therefore, O Prabhu, please tell me a simple process for conquering maya and attaining Krishna."

In my opinion Srila Advaita Acarya was communicating that instructions from the vew point of His eternal constitucional position as Sadashiva in Goura-lila. Again, it is not that simple to understand that. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, so it is hard to know the extension of His Knowledge. But as Gopiswara Mahadeva, we all know that He/She experienced Vraja-bhava in some transcendental- extension. So He could easyly give that to Srila Haridas Thakura.

As Murari Gupta was a Rama Bhakta in Caitanya Lila. Srila Haridas Thakur, Srila Advaita Acarya and mani others also that were there, in the time of Lord Gouranga, and had some trace of Vishnu-bhakti, be praised as Pure devotees of Lord Gouranga Deva !

Yours
hari

Dear Madhavanandaji,

Sorry if somehow I may desrespected you.
I have a lot of consideration for you.
Srila Haridas Thakura is a dear Vaishnava for the entire community. I have no understanding at all about his glories.

In the middle of a Sankirtan party,Srila Haridas, pass from this world... Looking to the beautiful moon-like-face of Lord Gouranga Deva. Who could measure the great fortune of such Mahatma ?

your servant
Harisaran das

QUOTE

Sorry if somehow I may desrespected you.
I have a lot of consideration for you.

Huh? No, I was just too busy to reply.

Let us sum up the gist of this conversation now.

In your first post:

QUOTE

So in this way ( I think ) Srila Nama-Acarya Haridas Thakur is not a Rasika-acarya in the mood of Vraja, but a Great Vaishnava who came by the order of the Lord(Vishnu) to help to propagate the potency and glories of Hari-nama in His passtime as Yuga-Avatar in Caitanya-Lila.

And in your recent post:

QUOTE

No one can say that Srila Haridas was deprived of entrance into Vraja-rasa.
...
But as Gopiswara Mahadeva, we all know that He/She experienced Vraja-bhava in some transcendental- extension. So He could easyly give that to Srila Haridas Thakura.

So, what do you think? :eh:

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 26 2002,02:08)

Let us sum up the gist of this conversation now.

In your first post:

QUOTE

So in this way ( I think ) Srila Nama-Acarya Haridas Thakur is not a Rasika-acarya in the mood of Vraja, but a Great Vaishnava who came by the order of the Lord(Vishnu) to help to propagate the potency and glories of Hari-nama in His passtime as Yuga-Avatar in Caitanya-Lila.

That was before I got your association

QUOTE

No one can say that Srila Haridas was deprived of entrance into Vraja-rasa.

...
But as Gopiswara Mahadeva, we all know that He/She experienced Vraja-bhava in some transcendental- extension. So He could easyly give that to Srila Haridas Thakura.

So, what do you think? :eh:

And that is after I got your association

:tongue:

But, I will be back.... :

:

haridAsera guNa-gaNa asaGkhya apAra |
keha kona aMze varNe, nAhi pAya pAra ||

“The qualities of Haridas are innumerable and unfathomable! Whoever describes them cannot find a limit to them.”

I think that is a good way to start it over.

Dear Madhavaji,
Thinking a bit more about that ( S.H.T being a Vishnu bhakta in Gouranga-lila) I have been going through some of the material that you and I have posted . So now I got a picture that I would like to share with you:

Harisaran said and quoted:
But back to my point; readind the info above I had to go to S.B and I got this wonderful verse where Srila Pralada Maharaj is answering his father's first question. He said:

Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy names, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Vishnu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worshiping with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with body, mind and words) these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of "Krishna"(this word is not in the original Sanskrit)through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knownledge.

Harisaran said:
In the translations of word by word: pumsa apita- offered by the devotee; visnau- unto Lord Vishnu ( not to anyone else ).
(SB. 7. 5. 23-24)

Madhava said:
As for Prahlad being a santa-bhakta, according to Rupa Gosvami's analysis of sattvika-bhava, in santa-rasa a maximum of only two or three sattvika-bhavas can simultaneously manifest. This is dhumayita, the first of the five stages of intensity in the manifestation of sattvika-bhavas. Haridas exhibited all sattvika-bhavas at once in his form.

Harisaran's quote from (S.B.)
That is how Srila Prahlada Maharaja is discribed:

This boy Prahlada is the killer of my brother, for he has given up his family to engage in the devitional service of the enemy, Lord Vishnu, like a menial servant.

Purport:

Hiranyakasipu considered his son Prahlada Maharaja to be the killer of his brother because Prahlada Maharaj was engaged in the devotional service of Lord Vishnu. In other words, Prahlada Maharaja would be elevated to sarupya libaration, and in that sense he resembled Lord Vishnu. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja was to be killed by Hiranyakasipu. Devotees, Vaishnavas, attain the liberations of sarupya, salokya, sarsti and samipya, whereas the Mayavadis are supposed to attain the libaration known as sayujya. Sayujia-mukti, however, is not very secure, whereas sarupya-mukti, salokya-mukti, sarsti-mukti are most certain.
Although the servants of Lord Vishnu, Narayana, in the Vaikuntha planets are equally situated with the Lord, the devotees there know very well that the Lord is the master whereas they are servants.
(SB. 7.5.35)

Madhava said and quoted:
Brihat Bhagavatamrita (3.75) relates how Prahlada was more dear to Him than any of the denizens of Vaikunthaloka:

"Prahlada, whose fame as a great devotee is spread throughout the entire universe, is more dear to Lord Krishna than your (Narada's) father (Brahma), than me (Siva), than Garuda, and all the other devotees, and even than the goddess of fortune herself."

Harisaran says: But just see:(above) "Dear to Him than any of the denizens of Vaikunthaloka". Plus all devotees formentioned are Vishnu-Bhaktas.

Madhava said:
Of course Prahlad was not a suddha Vrajavasi, there was aisvarya-jnana-misra in his bhakti.

Harisaran said:
Since we do not have a vivide description of Srila Haridas Thakura in Sri Sri Radha Krishna's Nitya-Lila it can be presumed that;( not in the sense we are judging his extraordinary position but rather having a better understanding of his Rasa with Lord Caitanya) why not Srila Haridas Thakur being a Vishnu Bhakta in Caitanya Lila? The evidences that you presented about his glories are unquestionables, but so far, I'm unable to see him beyond a Vishnu-bhakta, probably mixed with a Vrajavasi mood after being so close to lord Caitanya.

Madhava said:
The question is not whether he was a Vishnu-bhakta. The question is what he became in the presence of Gaura-avatara and all other rasika-bhaktas.

If you read the Caitanya Caritamrita and Caitanya Bhagavata, will you find a description of Sri Advaita Acarya in Radha-Krishna lila, or anything related with this? I can't recall of anything like that. However, we know there is an esoteric aspect to Prabhu Sitanath in Vraja, but this is known through the diksa-pranali descending from him, and it is rather confidential in contrast to His identity as Sada-Shiva and Maha-Vishnu.

Harisaran said:
So in this way Srila Haridas Thakura that was Lord Brahma in previous life, could not really goes beyond that Vishnu-relationship even if he may be had attained Krishna-bhakti, (what could be interpreted as Vishnu-bhakti ) what about his Svaroop-sidhi who is him in nitya-lila ?

Madhava said:
He was not Brahma the creator of the universe. Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika (93):

"Richika Muni's son Brahma Mahatapah, and Prahlada Maharaja combined to appear as Haridasa Thakur in Lord Caitanya's pastimes."

Richika Muni is the grandfather of Parasurama (viz. Bhagavata 9.16). I have no further information about the identity of Brahma Mahatapah, but certainly he is not Brahma the creator

Madhava said and quoted:
Speaking of the idea of Haridas being Brahma the creator, I just noted that this is supported by Advaita Prakash and possibly Caitanya Mangala (Madhya 13/31) which relates Haridas showing as his form of Brahma. I am uncertain to which form it refers since there is no further description there. Aside the issue, according to Brahma-samhita, Brahmaji was engaged in chanting mantra with kama-bija to gopi-jana vallabha.

In the seventh chapter of Advaita Prakasa, Advaita speaks to Haridas:

"Without attaining the mood of the gopis, one cannot attain the lotus feet of Krishna. By attaining that mood one achieves the greatest treasure."

Haridas replies: "The inconceivable mood of the gopis is not attained by millions of lives of pious activities. Therefore, O Prabhu, please tell me a simple process for conquering maya and attaining Krishna."

Thereafter Advaita Prabhu instructs Haridas about attaining the lotus feet of Radha and Krishna, then initiating him, giving tilaka and tulasi-mala. Advaita Prakasa describes, "As he become intoxicated with love of God, he be came known as the crest jewel among Vaishnavas." Haridas fell in a swoon. As he awakened, Advaita Prabhu blessed him, "May you attain Krishna. Your name is Brahma Haridas." We may thus understand that he was initiated to the path of attaining gopi-bhava.

Harisaran's quote from (C.B. Adi):
Sri Haridas Thakur is an eternally liberated associate of the Lord. The associates of the Lord are worshippable wherever they make their appearance. Just as Garuda appeared as a bird, and Hanuman as a monkey, Haridas Thakur appeared in a family of Yavanas (Mohammedans). From his very birth he was very deeply devoted to the Holy Names of Sri Krishna.

Harisaran says: Just see(above) how the Author quotes Vishnu-Bhaktas as analogy only.

Harisaran's quote from (C.B. Adi)
The Mohammedan King told Haridas, “Just give up this chanting and say the Kalma (prayer of the Mohammedans).”

Haridasa Thakura replied, “The Supreme Lord is one, though His names might be different. The Hindu sastras are the Puranas and the Muslim sastra is the Koran. Everyone acts as he is inspired by the Lord, as also do I. Some Yavanas become Hindus and some Hindus become Yavanas, to worship the Lord. O Maharaja, you can now judge me.”

Harisaran says: This is the exalted mood of someone that are in Sankirtana-preaching-bhava. Corroborating the Yuga-Avatar-mood of Lord Caitanya and Nitay.

Harisaran's quote from (C.B. Adi)
As the demoniac associates of Hiranyakasipu tried in so many ways to kill Sri Prahlada Maharaja, but were unsuccessful, similarly the demoniac Mohammedans, though they tried to harm Haridasa Thakura, were unable to do so. Haridasa Thakur was immersed in the nectar of the Name and thus gradually the Mohammedans could understand that he wasn’t an ordinary person.

Harisaran: The Author knowing very well the internal mood of Srila Haridas; gives a correspondent analogy. My point here is that: the Author could give any other exemple if he(Srila Haridas) did not have that strong trace of Vishnu-Bhakta.

Harisaran's quote from (C.C. Antya-lila Ch 11)
The next day, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to Haridasa’s place and inquired from him, “Haridasa, are you well?” Haridasa offered his obeisances to the Lord and replied, “My body is all right, but my mind and intelligence are not well.” Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu further inquired from Haridasa, “Can you ascertain what your disease is?” Haridasa Thakura replied, “My disease is that I cannot complete my rounds.”

“Now that you have become old,” the Lord said, “you may reduce the number of rounds you chant daily. You are already liberated, and therefore you need not follow the regulative principles very strictly.Your role in this incarnation is to deliver the people in general. You have sufficiently preached the glories of the holy name in this world. Now, therefore, please reduce the fixed number of times you chant the Hare Krishna maha- mantra.”

Haridasa Thakura replied, “Kindly hear my real plea. I was born in an inferior family, and my body is most abominable. I always engage in low work. Therefore, I am the lowest, most condemned of men. I am unseeable and untouchable, but You have accepted me as Your servant.This means that You have delivered me from a hellish condition and raised me to Vaikuntha.

Haridasa Thakura made Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu sit down in front of him, and then he fixed his eyes, like two bumblebees, on the lotus face of the Lord. He held the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu on his heart and then took the dust of the feet of all the devotees present and put it on his head. He began to chant the holy name of Sri Krishna Caitanya again and again. As he drank the sweetness of the face of the Lord, tears constantly glided down from his eyes. While chanting the holy name of Sri Krishna Caitanya, he gave up his air of life and left his body.

Seeing the wonderful death of Haridasa Thakura by his own will,which was just like a great mystic yogi’s, everyone remembered the passing away of Bhisma.

Harisaran: With all this strong evidences of Srila Haridas Thakuraji being a Vishnu-Bhakta, the Author, Srila Krishnadas Kaviraja, has no other exemple to give but; the dazzling passing away of Bhisma Deva. So in this way I presume that both of them ( Srila Haridas and Bhisma ) were Vishnu-bhaktas following specific instructions in Sri Caitanya's Lila and Sri Krishna's Lila, respectively. So they have no Sidha-Svarupa in Sri Sri Radha Krishna's Nitya-Lila.

The questions now are: how a Vishnu-bhakta can give Vraja-bhava to others? Was Srila Haridas over-empowered by Advaita Prabhu to extraordinarily distribute that Vraja-bhava ? Or was Lord Caitanya's causeless mercy that can make the impossible to become possible ? Or that opportunity to experience Vraja-Bhava was given to Srila Haridas Thakura as an especial bonus only ?

Yours
Hari saran das

Having read all of that again, there are many things to consider in regards to the evidence you have presented. I am summarizing your points and responding to them in brief.

Argument 1: Haridas was Prahlad in his previous incarnation, Prahlad was a Vishnu-bhakta. Therefore Haridas was a Vishnu-bhakta too.

Response 1: The previous svarupa of Haridas is irrelevant in regards to what he received during his participation in Gaura-lila, given the magnanimous nature of Gaura's Vraja-prema laden pastimes and the various examples of devotees who thus participated in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one rasa at once. This renders the evidence on Prahlad and Brahma irrelevant.

At any rate, it was already pointed out that regardless of the exact mood of Haridas during Gaura-lila, there was certainly evolution from the mood in his identity as Prahlad, since in santa-rasa a maximum of only two or three sattvika-bhavas can simultaneously manifest, and Haridas manifested all eight sattvika-bhavas simultaneously.

Argument 2: Since there is no vivid description of Haridas participating in Vraja-lila in a Vraja-svarupa, we may conclude that he is a Vishnu-bhakta.

Response 2: No, this is not so, since there are many examples of devotees whose exact identity is not known nor elaborately described, but who nevertheless participated in tasting Vraja-rasa. For example Advaita Prabhu and Srivasa Thakura could easily be considered as having no Vraja-identity based on the biographical narrations of Caitanya Caritamrita and Caitanya Bhagavata, but regardless of this we may observe that there indeed was an esoteric Vraja-aspect to their identity. Their esoteric identity has been elaborated upon by Advaita's followers and Siddha Krishnadas respectively in their manuals of worship. The identity of Advaita was elaborated upon because of his being the head of a prominent diksa-pranali, and the identity of Srivasa was elaborated upon because of his being a member of the Panca-tattva. However, Haridas had no lineage of followers. Consequently there is not much information about his esoteric identity. On accout of a lack of information, neither a positive nor a negative conclusion can be given.

Aside this, I have quoted from the seventh chapter of Advaita Prakasa, demonstrating how Advaita Prabhu initiated Haridas into the path of attaining gopi-bhava.

Argument 3: Harisaran's quote from (C.B. Adi): "Sri Haridas Thakur is an eternally liberated associate of the Lord. The associates of the Lord are worshippable wherever they make their appearance. Just as Garuda appeared as a bird, and Hanuman as a monkey, Haridas Thakur appeared in a family of Yavanas (Mohammedans). From his very birth he was very deeply devoted to the Holy Names of Sri Krishna."

Harisaran says: Just see (above) how the author quotes Vishnu-Bhaktas as analogy only.

Response 3: No, this is also not a good basis for an argument. Garuda and Hanuman are two most famous examples of devotees in a low-born body, therefore they are compared with Haridas who took birth in a yavana family. The author could not have possibly given the example of a Vraja-gopi or a Vraja-gopa to demonstrate the point he made. Aside this, the only semblance to the quote presented, coming from Adi-khanda 16.241, mentions Prahlad instead of Garuda. References are required for all quotes for verifying the evidence.

Argument 4: On occasion Haridas clearly displayed the mood of someone who is in Sankirtana-preaching-bhava, corroborating the Yuga-Avatar-mood of Lord Caitanya and Nitai.

Response 4: This is true of everyone who participatedin the Sankirtana-preaching-bhava pastimes of Sriman Mahaprabhu. It is not that participating in Mahaprabhu's sankirtana-lila deprives one of Vraja-rasa; quite to the contrary! There is no "yuga-avatara mood" there. The appearance of the yuga-avatara was incidentally simultaneous with the appearance of Caitanya and Nitai, and the yuga-avatara merged in them. The purpose of the yuga-avatara was incidentally simultaneously fulfilled. Mahaprabhu never participated in yuga-dharma-sankirtan, He promulgated prema-dharma-sankirtan. Everyone who participated in His sankirtan pastimes was plunged in prema-dharma, not in yuga-dharma.

Argument 5: When Haridas was beaten by Moslems, Vrindavan Das Thakura, knowing his inner mood, compared him to Prahlad. "The author knowing very well the internal mood of Srila Haridas gives a correspondent analogy. My point here is that: the Author could give any other exemple if he (Srila Haridas) did not have that strong trace of Vishnu-Bhakta."

Response 5: No, this is also not a good argument. The example of Prahlad was given because he is a famous example of a devotee who was in a similar situation. There is no befitting example in Vraja-lila, as Vraja-lila is the siddha-bhumi, not the sadhaka-bhumi, and therefore no example from Vraja-lila could be given regardless of Haridasa's inner mood.

Argument 6: Mahaprabhu said to Haridas (CC 3.11.26): "Your role in this incarnation is to deliver the people in general. You have sufficiently preached the glories of the holy name in this world."

Response 6:No, this is also not proper evidence because the passage above is not an exact translation. The original Bengali text reads: loka nistArite ei tomAra avatAra nAmera mahimA loke karilA pracAra -- "In your avatara, you have delivered the world and preached the glory of Harinama to everyone." The words "your role", indicating that this is the very purpose of Haridas's descent, are not included in the original verse of the Caitanya Caritamrita.

Argument 7: Mahaprabhu said to Haridas: "This means that You have delivered me from a hellish condition and raised me to Vaikuntha." Therefore Haridas is a Vaikuntha-vasi, not a Vraja-vasi.

Response 7: The word "Vaikuntha" is often used in a generic sense while referring to the spiritual world. In the Caitanya Caritamrita (2.3.156), the residence of Advaita Prabhu is described as having transformed into Vaikuntha during Mahaprabhu's sankirtan with His associates. In fact, even Mahaprabhu Himself is called "Vaikuntha-nayaka" (CB 1.16.5).

I am reminded of something we have not yet considered, though it is a very essential aspect in the character of Haridas. Haridas chanted the Harinama Maha-mantra for at least 192 malas every day in great ecstacy. Why would a Vishnu-bhakta have incessantly chanted the names of Radha and Krishna? Aside this, there are countless instances where Haridas is said to have Krishna within his heart, where people are blessed to attain Krishna upon seeing or hearing about Haridas, and so forth.

It was already pointed out that Haridas tasted bhakti-rasa as he always chanted the name of Govinda (not Vishnu). Caitanya Bhagavata 1.16.24:

kSaNeka govinda-nAme nAhika virakti |
bhakti-rase anukSaNa haya nAnA mUrti ||
"He never gave up the chanting of Govinda's names for a moment, and thus bhakti-rasa was always seen embodied in him."

Haridas was floating in the waves of the ocean of Govinda-rasa (not Vishnu-rasa) together with Advaita Prabhu (CB 1.16.21):

haridAsa-ThAkur o advaita-deva-saGge |
bhAsena govinda-rasa-samudra-taraGge ||
"In the association of Advaita Deva, Haridas Thakur was floating in the waves of the ocean of Govinda-rasa!"

Now, if you argue that the word "bhAsena", "floating", is proof of his being a Vishnu-bhakta since had he been a Vraja-bhakta he would have drowned in the ocean of Govinda-rasa instead of floating on the surface, then I will be upset. Be warned!

QUOTE

Harisaran: With all this strong evidences of Srila Haridas Thakuraji being a Vishnu-Bhakta, the Author, Srila Krishnadas Kaviraja, has no other exemple to give but; the dazzling passing away of Bhisma Deva. So in this way I presume that both of them ( Srila Haridas and Bhisma ) were Vishnu-bhaktas following specific instructions in Sri Caitanya's Lila and Sri Krishna's Lila, respectively. So they have no Sidha-Svarupa in Sri Sri Radha Krishna's Nitya-Lila.

As I already said, I do not have conclusive evidence to prove Haridas's special role in Vraja-lila. However, aside all of the aforementioned points, there is further evidence to prove that Haridas indeed does participate in Vraja-lila. Caitanya Bhagavata (Adi-khanda, 16.233) states:

sarva-bhUta-vatsala sabAra upakArI |
Izvarera saGge prati-janme avatArI ||
"He is a friend of all living entities, always engaged in doing good for them. He accompanies the Lord in each and every avatara He takes."

Now, someone may argue: "During Krishna-avatara, he was Bhismadeva then." To this we reply: No, it is not so, for the verse says "prati-janme", in every birth, and it is known from the commentaries of the Mahajanas that the Lord took birth simultaneously in Vraja and in Mathura. Therefore Haridas must have taken birth in both places as well.

:biggrin:

[quote=Madhava,Oct. 08 2002,18:42][quote]Argument 1: Haridas was Prahlad in his previous incarnation, Prahlad was a Vishnu-bhakta. Therefore Haridas was a Vishnu-bhakta too.[/quote]

[quote]Response 1: The previous svarupa of Haridas is irrelevant in regards to what he received during his participation in Gaura-lila, given the magnanimous nature of Gaura's Vraja-prema laden pastimes and the various examples of devotees who thus participated in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one rasa at once. This renders the evidence on Prahlad and Brahma irrelevant.[/quote]

Well my dear one,if the previous svarupa of Srila Haridas do doesn't matter then you want to say that we can change it as we like ? You know it is impossible. So his svarupa says by it self. Once a soul achieves a paticular relation with God that is the end of its journey. Why ? Because the Svarupa came to its highest point of realization. As an individual soul we all have a particular nature and relation with God.So when that form is revealed with its Ista-deva that is where the soul goes in relation with God. You could do a mental exercise ( as you prefer) think about the example left by of Murari Gupta and he tell Lord Caitanya that he can't surrender to Sri Krishna because... he had his heart already surrender to Sri Rama. So with this exercise finished you could go to the next:It said that Lord Brahma is the one who represents the demigods. Srila Prahlada Maharaja is the son of one of the eternal servant of Lord Visnu that came to this plane just to play with Lord as a Demon. In Hirananyakasipu's mind there is only one enemy... Lord Vishnu and is that same Lord Visnu that came to save His Bhakta Pralada. ( the second menta-exercise continues...) Lord Brahma as I have mentioned, is the representant of the Demigods. Right ? So when Bhumi was in trouble, where he went to get help ?... In Svatadvipa and Who stays there, Other then Lashmi and Narayna ? I tell you Ananata-Sesa and all His servants. The name of this particular expansion is Kisirodaksai-Vishnu the very Paramatma in everyone's heart.
So my dear one, that is how things are; Jivas has one Svarupa and that is for good. Never change. Even if we say that someone comes in Caitanya lila and gets His mercy to experiment Vraja-Prema that is Lord Caitanya's exclusive mercy only. But after Srila Haridas finish his lilas what did he say to Lord Caitanya ?...
“Kindly hear my real plea. I was born in an inferior family, and my body is most abominable. I always engage in low work. Therefore, I am the lowest, most condemned of men. I am unseeable and untouchable, but You have accepted me as Your servant. You have delivered me from a hellish condition and raised me to Vaikuntha.

[quote]At any rate, it was already pointed out that regardless of the exact mood of Haridas during Gaura-lila, there was certainly evolution from the mood in his identity as Prahlad, since in santa-rasa a maximum of only two or three sattvika-bhavas can simultaneously manifest, and Haridas manifested all eight sattvika-bhavas simultaneously.[/quote]
I agree with that.Definitly there was a progress but not a change of Identity.So he/them would still remain as eternal Vishnu-Bhakta. This eight sattvika-bhavas would be the result of being in touch with Gouranga ( Krishna in the mood of Sri Radhika ) that would be enough to make stones to melt,what about a Bhakta?

[quote]Argument 2: Since there is no vivid description of Haridas participating in Vraja-lila in a Vraja-svarupa, we may conclude that he is a Vishnu-bhakta.[/quote]

Madhava says:
[quote] No, this is not so, since there are many examples of devotees whose exact identity is not known nor elaborately described, but who nevertheless participated in tasting Vraja-rasa. For example Advaita Prabhu and Srivasa Thakura could easily be considered as having no Vraja-identity based on the biographical narrations of Caitanya Caritamrita and Caitanya Bhagavata, but regardless of this we may observe that there indeed was an esoteric Vraja-aspect to their identity. Their esoteric identity has been elaborated upon by Advaita's followers and Siddha Krishnadas respectively in their manuals of worship. The identity of Advaita was elaborated upon because of his being the head of a prominent diksa-pranali, and the identity of Srivasa was elaborated upon because of his being a member of the Panca-tattva. However, Haridas had no lineage of followers. Consequently there is not much information about his esoteric identity. On accout of a lack of information, neither a positive nor a negative conclusion can be given.[/quote]
A do appreaciate your explanations here but again, we are talking about Srila Prahlada Maharaja and Lord Brahma incarnated as Srila Haridas.

[quote]Argument 4: On occasion Haridas clearly displayed the mood of someone who is in Sankirtana-preaching-bhava, corroborating the Yuga-Avatar-mood of Lord Caitanya and Nitai.[/quote]

[quote]This is true of everyone who participatedin the Sankirtana-preaching-bhava pastimes of Sriman Mahaprabhu. It is not that participating in Mahaprabhu's sankirtana-lila deprives one of Vraja-rasa; quite to the contrary! There is no "yuga-avatara mood" there.[/quote]
What about when Lord Caitanya was ready to kill Jagai and Madhai ? Which mood does He was ? Did He not had a Sudarsana- Chakra on His Hands ?

[quote] Mahaprabhu said to Haridas (CC 3.11.26): "Your role in this incarnation is to deliver the people in general. You have sufficiently preached the glories of the holy name in this world."[/quote]

[quote]No, this is also not proper evidence because the passage above is not an exact translation. The original Bengali text reads: loka nistArite ei tomAra avatAra nAmera mahimA loke karilA pracAra -- "In your avatara, you have delivered the world and preached the glory of Harinama to everyone." The words "your role", indicating that this is the very purpose of Haridas's descent, are not included in the original verse of the Caitanya Caritamrita.[/quote]
Dear Madhava if one translates: "your role" and the other translates " in your Avatar" again the sentence ends indicating the purpose of that : " to deliver the whole world ". Which is clearly indicating a general way of preaching by a particular person that has a particular reason and intention in doing that. In other words, no one can give ( except the Lord or someone in His command ) in a general way the rare treasure of Vrindavana; Gopi-Bhava. And that is not what the verse is describing anyway;(to deliver the people in general ) that is what is clear.

[quote]
I am reminded of something we have not yet considered, though it is a very essential aspect in the character of Haridas. Haridas chanted the Harinama Maha-mantra for at least 192 malas every day in great ecstacy. Why would a Vishnu-bhakta have incessantly chanted the names of Radha and Krishna? Aside this, there are countless instances where Haridas is said to have Krishna within his heart, where people are blessed to attain Krishna upon seeing or hearing about Haridas, and so forth.[/quote]

It was not Lord Brahma who chanted the Brahma-Samhita ? And later on, after he stealing of the Gopas he had the Darshan of all the Gopas as expasions of Lord Vishnu ? So why could not he as Srila Haridas. chanted Hare Krishna Mantra to help Lord Caitanya to propagate the Holy names and on the end of it he comes back to his original position as Plahlada Maharaja who pacifeis Lord Nrishinha and Lord Brahma who is encharged of some Universal affairs ?

[quote]Harisaran: With all this strong evidences of Srila Haridas Thakuraji being a Vishnu-Bhakta, the Author, Srila Krishnadas Kaviraja, has no other exemple to give but; the dazzling passing away of Bhisma Deva. So in this way I presume that both of them ( Srila Haridas and Bhisma ) were Vishnu-bhaktas following specific instructions in Sri Caitanya's Lila and Sri Krishna's Lila, respectively. So they have no Sidha-Svarupa in Sri Sri Radha Krishna's Nitya-Lila.[/quote]
[quote]
As I already said, I do not have conclusive evidence to prove Haridas's special role in Vraja-lila. However, aside all of the aforementioned points, there is further evidence to prove that Haridas indeed does participate in Vraja-lila.[/quote]

Caitanya Bhagavata (Adi-khanda, 16.233) states:

sarva-bhUta-vatsala sabAra upakArI |
Izvarera saGge prati-janme avatArI ||
"He is a friend of all living entities, always engaged in doing good for them. He accompanies the Lord in each and every avatara He takes."

He accompanies which Lord and which Avatar if Lord Caitanya Deva comes once every 25 Kali-Yaga ?

Again my dear Madhava this is something that is in my mind and somehow I'm not able to change this view. If I'm wrong great if not great too.

Ys
Hari

QUOTE

Well my dear one,if the previous svarupa of Srila Haridas do doesn't matter then you want to say that we can change it as we like ? You know it is impossible. So his svarupa says by it self. Once a soul achieves a paticular relation with God that is the end of its journey.

What about Lord Shiva? He was prohibited from entering the rasa dance because of his male body (although it is spiritual) and was later bestowed a form of gopi as Gopiswara in order to witness the rasa lila. There is another story of Narada Deva who performed tapasya under the order of Vrnda Devi and was bestowed a gopi svarupa in order for him (her) to witness Radha-Krsna lila near Govardhana.

In his commentary to Prema Bhakti Candrika, Ananta Das Baba quotes from Kavikarnapur's Sri Caitanya Candrodaya ( Act X, 74) wherein Mahaprabhu blesses Sri Adwaita saying:

"O Acarya, I'm always absorbed in my blissful luscious pastimes, residing in Vrndavan, and I will give you all (spiritual) bodies suitable for joining Me in these Vrndavan pastimes. That one remaining great duty I will swiftly perform!"

Sri Acarya replied:
"By Your wish we may attain whatever You want, in any other ABODE or BODY. We will eternally remember our origin in Your wonderful pastimes!"

Therefore, if the Lord desires, or if the mercy of one of His eternal associates is there, then an eternal associate can attain another svarupa to serve in His pastimes.

QUOTE

So my dear one, that is how things are; Jivas has one Svarupa and that is for good. Never change.

Radhapada has already posted an excellent reference from Kavi Karnapura. Aside this, I have already addressed this earier in this thread.

"No-one in Gaura-lila is bound by his svarupa. Dhananjaya Pandit, the head of our parivar, is Vasudhama the cowherd boy according to Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika. Nevertheless by the grace of Mahaprabhu he is also situated in manjari-bhava. Srivasa Thakura is commonly known to be Narada Muni, but he too has a manjari- svarupa as depicted in Siddha Baba's Gutika. And yes, Murari Gupta is praised as a Rama-bhakta, but nevertheless his Krishna Caitanya Caritamrita reveals his insights to be much beyond those of a Rama-bhakta. I recall hearing that he even wrote some nagari padas!

Vakresvara is identified as Aniruddha of Caturvyuha in Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika, but is also known as Tungavidya Sakhi, the head of Gopal Guru's parivara! Who can fathom the multidimensions of these divine personalities."

Thus it is clear that no individual is bound to only one svarupa. In fact, even most Gaudiyas have two svarupas both in the stage of sadhana and at the time of perfection -- one for Gaura-lila and one for Vraja-lila. Of course, once one has attained a particular svarupa, that svarupa will not be lost, but one's relationship with the Lord is not limited by this, particularly not so when it comes to the magnanimous pastimes of Sri Caitanya.

Aside this, the form of Prahlad and the forms of Brahmaji the creator and Brahma Mahatapah are not eternal svarupas. Also the bhava of one's upasana may change. The example of Syamananda is very famous in this regard.

QUOTE

Argument 4: On occasion Haridas clearly displayed the mood of someone who is in Sankirtana-preaching-bhava, corroborating the Yuga-Avatar-mood of Lord Caitanya and Nitai.

This is true of everyone who participatedin the Sankirtana-preaching-bhava pastimes of Sriman Mahaprabhu. It is not that participating in Mahaprabhu's sankirtana-lila deprives one of Vraja-rasa; quite to the contrary! There is no "yuga-avatara mood" there.

What about when Lord Caitanya was ready to kill Jagai and Madhai ? Which mood does He was ? Did He not had a Sudarsana- Chakra on His Hands ?

That was Vishnu who was within his body. This bhava came out incidentally, but Nitai then reprimanded Mahaprabhu for His behavior was not appropriate for the current avatara. That was certainly not a permanent mood in Mahaprabhu in the course of His sankirtan pastimes.

QUOTE

Dear Madhava if one translates: "your role" and the other translates " in your Avatar" again the sentence ends indicating the purpose of that : " to deliver the whole world ". Which is clearly indicating a general way of preaching by a particular person that has a particular reason and intention in doing that. In other words, no one can give ( except the Lord or someone in His command ) in a general way the rare treasure of Vrindavana; Gopi-Bhava. And that is not what the verse is describing anyway;(to deliver the people in general ) that is what is clear.

If you read my post carefully, you'll note that in the original verse, it is said, "In your avatara, you have delivered the world". The suggested translation said, "Your role in this incarnation was to...", thus defining the delivering of the world as a prominent purpose of Haridasa's descent. However, this is incorrect, since Haridas preached the glory of suddha-nama and established that merely by nama-abhasa liberation can be attained (and the world delivered). Thus there is certainly much more to his nama kirtan. Mahaprabhu Himself called Haridas the nama-acarya. What kind of nama-acarya is he if his conception of Harinama doesn't go beyond Vishnuloka?

QUOTE

It was not Lord Brahma who chanted the Brahma-Samhita ? And later on, after he stealing of the Gopas he had the Darshan of all the Gopas as expasions of Lord Vishnu ? So why could not he as Srila Haridas. chanted Hare Krishna Mantra to help Lord Caitanya to propagate the Holy names and on the end of it he comes back to his original position as Plahlada Maharaja who pacifeis Lord Nrishinha and Lord Brahma who is encharged of some Universal affairs ?

The position of Brahma in this universe is a temporary post. The pastime of Narasingha and Prahlad also takes place only in this universe, there is no such pastime of Prahlad's pacifying Narasingha going on in any Vaikuntha-loka.

There is no objection to this -- certainly Haridas is also Brahma in his planet, and certainly Haridas is also Prahlad at Rasatala. These activities occur simultaneously.

QUOTE

Again my dear Madhava this is something that is in my mind and somehow I'm not able to change this view. If I'm wrong great if not great too.

You should try to go beyond the mind here. Examine the scriptures. I would personally not dare to draw conclusions outruling Mahaprabhu's parishads from Vraja-lila on the grounds of my feeling. I prefer to take the chance of over-estimating a parishad's position instead of underestimating it, for overestimation is another form of flattery, whereas underestimation is an aparadha.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Oct. 14 2002,15:07)

QUOTE

Again my dear Madhava this is something that is in my mind and somehow I'm not able to change this view. If I'm wrong great if not great too.

QUOTE

You should try to go beyond the mind here. Examine the scriptures. I would personally not dare to draw conclusions outruling Mahaprabhu's parishads from Vraja-lila on the grounds of my feeling. I prefer to take the chance of over-estimating a parishad's position instead of underestimating it, for overestimation is another form of flattery, whereas underestimation is an aparadha.

haridAsera guNa-gaNa asaGkhya apAra |
keha kona aMze varNe, nAhi pAya pAra ||

“The qualities of Haridas are innumerable and unfathomable! Whoever describes them cannot find a limit to them.”

Dear Madhava, Radhapada and many others.

I have not placed any one of my post with the intation of underestimating no one.Especilly in the case of someone like Srila Haridas Thakur.

In the middle of a Sankirtan party,Srila Haridas, pass from this world... Looking to the beautiful moon-like-face of Lord Gouranga Deva. Who can measure the great fortune of such Mahatma ?

So dear devotees, be happy to be able to help someone (like me) that is possessed by some kind of ghostly Ideas that is not coming out of mind. For some reason that type of thoughts about Srila Haridas came and self- installed in my mind. You are now helping me to get free from some of this misconceptions. But there is one point that I want to make clear: to try to understand the inconceivable some time we go through some misconceptions otherwise we all would be on a transcendental platform. So I'm just exercising the fredom of thoughts to grasp some substantiality. The feeling is simple; a humble approach with a plan speculative mind.
May that is not too danger when we all have this www.raganuga-powerful-sadhusanga. that help us to clear out the clouds of our mind.If for some reason this misconceptions didn't go away I may come back with some thing else...

Thanks to be so compassionated to this fallen one !

Ys
Hari :

:

I tried my level best to resist from posting this, but looks like I didn't make it. From Bhaktisiddhanta's Gaudiya Bhasya on Caitanya Bhagavata, 1.16.21.

haridAsa-ThAkur o advaita-deva saGge |
bhAsena govinda-rasa-samudra-taraGge ||
"Similarly, in the association of Advaita Prabhu, Haridasa Thakura floated in hte waves of the ocean of Govinda-rasa."

By the influence of Sri Advaita Prabhu's association, Haridasa Thakura also floated in the ocean of the transcendental mellows of Govinda-rasa. Many people think that since Haridasa Thakura was busy in only chanting the holy names, he did not enter into relishing such transcendental mellows in relationship with Govinda. Such belief of the prakrita-sahajiyas is most erroneous, because the holy names of Krishna are the bestowers of all spiritual benedictions and nondifferent from Krishna, the embodiment of all transcendental mellows. Simply by chanting the holy names of Krishna, one relishes the transcendental mellows related with Krishna.

There is no possibility of relishing the transcendental mellows related with Krishna by any other process. Thakura Haridasa was the actual knower of the transcendental mellows related with Krishna, and he is the principle teacher for understanding rasa-sastras, or literatures filled with the transcendental mellows related with Krishna. Due to committing offenses against the holy names of the Lord, sentimental prakrita-sahajiya sampradayas become bewildered with material enjoyment and thus have no information regarding the transcendental mellows related with the holy names.

Interestingly, I recall hearing something to that extent from one prominent sannyasi of the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Boycott the sahajiya... sannyasis?

:cool:

All Glories to Srila Haridas Thakur, the ocean of devotion for Krishna !

QUOTE

Many people think that since Haridasa Thakura was busy in only chanting the holy names, he did not enter into relishing such transcendental mellows in relationship with Govinda. Such belief of the prakrita-sahajiyas is most erroneous, because the holy names of Krishna are the bestowers of all spiritual benedictions and nondifferent from Krishna, the embodiment of all transcendental mellows. Simply by chanting the holy names of Krishna, one relishes the transcendental mellows related with Krishna.

If he (Srila Sarasvati) is saying that, that means: others, somehow, thought the same way about our dear Srila Haridas. In other words, to think that Srila Haridas didn't have much to do with Madhurya-rasa was somehow (noticed) by others. My question is: why this thoughts are there ? If a devotee has a particular relation with Krishna, that very relation is so sublime and well known. Why such doubts/misunderstanding would comes up ?
By the way, I'm classified among those Prakta-sahajyias ?

QUOTE

There is no possibility of relishing the transcendental mellows related with Krishna by any other process. Thakura Haridasa was the actual knower of the transcendental mellows related with Krishna, and he is the principle teacher for understanding rasa-sastras, or literatures filled with the transcendental mellows related with Krishna.

Does he (S.S) is trying to say that the process to realize one's relation with Krishna is based on the chanting of the Holy names only and there is not need of Sidha-pranali and so on as some devotees may thought/think ?
I think we need to have the combination of both ( Sidha-pranali and Maha Mantra) for a better and deep understanding.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Oct. 15 2002,00:51)

I tried my level best to resist from posting this, but looks like I didn't make it. From Bhaktisiddhanta's Gaudiya Bhasya on Caitanya Bhagavata, 1.16.21.

Interestingly, I recall hearing something to that extent from one prominent sannyasi of the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Boycott the sahajiya... sannyasis?

:cool:

Could you explain that a bit more too ?

A humble request from this most fallen one; do reply me
Ys
Hari Saran das

QUOTE

If he (Srila Sarasvati) is saying that, that means: others, somehow, thought the same way about our dear Srila Haridas. In other words, to think that Srila Haridas didn't have much to do with Madhurya-rasa was somehow (noticed) by others. My question is: why this thoughts are there ? If a devotee has a particular relation with Krishna, that very relation is so sublime and well known. Why such doubts/misunderstanding would comes up ?

There have been equal misunderstandings about for instance the position of Sri Advaita Acarya. You may recall a recent debate under the heading "Can Advaita Acarya give Vraja-prema" taking place on VNN and several forums. It is not surprising at all.

I'd also be curious to know to whom Bhaktisiddhanta is referring here.

QUOTE

By the way, I'm classified among those Prakta-sahajyias ?

No, not according to the text quoted earlier. According to Bhaktisiddhanta you do share a similar opinion with them, but this in itself does not define you.

The essential reason for presenting the verse was to draw your mind to the verse and the words "bhAsena govinda-rasa-samudra-taraGge" -- "He floated on the waves of the ocean of Govinda-rasa". The experience of rasa requires five constituents, the first among which is sthayi-bhava, or being situated in a certain permanent emotion. The experience of rasa is then built on the foundation of sthayi-bhava with the ingredients of vibhava, anubhava, sattvika-bhava and vyabhicari-bhava in the jubilant heart of the perfected devotee. The fact that Haridas had a deep experience of Govinda-rasa indicates that he indeed possesses a permanent feeling towards the Cowherd of Vraja. The depth of his personality may also contain an aspect of Vishnu-bhakta, but this is certainly not the limit of his inner depth: haridAsera guNa-gaNa asaGkhya apAra -- "The qualities of Haridas are matchless and immeasurable!"

QUOTE(Sri Hari @ Oct. 15 2002,08:23)

QUOTE

There is no possibility of relishing the transcendental mellows related with Krishna by any other process. Thakura Haridasa was the actual knower of the transcendental mellows related with Krishna, and he is the principle teacher for understanding rasa-sastras, or literatures filled with the transcendental mellows related with Krishna.

Does he (S.S) is trying to say that the process to realize one's relation with Krishna is based on the chanting of the Holy names only and there is not need of Sidha-pranali and so on as some devotees may thought/think ?

I think we need to have the combination of both ( Sidha-pranali and Maha Mantra) for a better and deep understanding.

I believe this is the opinion of Bhaktisiddhanta, but this is not implied in the citation from the commentary presented above. He speaks about a process for relishing transcendental mellows. Siddha-pranali is not exactly a process. A very direct translation of the words "siddha pranali" is "channel of the perfected". It is the Vraja-counterpart of guru-pranali, a succession of gurus manifest on this earthly plane. Just as a guru-pranali is not exactly a particular process, but rather a succession of mahatmas under whose guidance we serve, so too siddha-pranali is not exactly a particular process. Of course siddha-pranali is a rather essential part of smaranam, and smaranam is certainly a process for relishing the divine mellows of rasa; I believe no-one in his right frame of mind and a decent knowledge of Gaudiya Granthas will deny that. However, according to Sanatana (Brihat Bhagavatamritam) and Jiva (Bhakti Sandarbha), smaranam must go together with nama-kirtanam.

ASTA-KALIYA-LILA

The eightfold daily pastimes of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna have been described in a summary form in the verses of Srila Rupa Gosvamipada's Asta-kaliya-lila Smarana-mangala Stotram, which have served as the basis of meditation for Gaudiya Vaishnava aspirants who seek entrance into the realm of lila.

Introduction

I offer obeisance to the daily activities of Vraja in order to expand now the mental service that is to be contemplated by those who travel the path of passion and by which is attained the goal of loving service of the lotus-like feet of the friend of the heart of Radha, which is beyond the reach of Brahma, Siva, and Sesa and which is only attainable through intense longing by those immersed in the activities of Vraja.

Dear Madhavaji, Radhe Radhe !

First of all let me congratulate you for delibarately distributing this wonderful Things for the benefit of conditioned souls !

Sorry to disturb...

Well, here is my mind again followed by it's ghost...

Reading the above passage I have to go through again ; it is not that Lord Shiva that came as Lord Advaita Acharya and that is not that Lord Brahma who came as Srila Haridas and are pointed as an example of not being in the mood of Vrajabasis ?
So how could They be in the mood of Brajabasis ?
Srila Rupa Gosvamipada was a conteporaneous of Lord Caitanya Deva, he knowns Srila Haridas and Sri Advaita's Svarupa why then he is pointing Them out ?
Sorry for my impertinence! It is not coming out of my mind !

Thanks for assistance !

Ys
Hari

The same is in the case of Laksmi who wanted to attain Krsna in Vrndavana but couldn't because Her worship is in aiswarya. Mahaprabhu told Vyenkatta Bhatta that in order to attain Krsna in Vrndavana one must worship following the footsteps of the Vrajavasis--raganuga bhakti. The Devas can attain Krsna in Vrndavan just as the Srutis attained Sri Krsna in the rasa dance, but only through raganuga bhakti. Otherwise, it is generally not possible even if one is exalted like Brahma, or Shiva.

Sri Mukunda Das Goswami is quoted within text 6 of a commentary to Raga Vartma Candrika:

Greed for raganuga bhakti is more rarely attained that bhava or rati in vaidi bhati, and it is only attainable by grace.

QUOTE(Radhapada @ Oct. 30 2002,03:28)

The same is in the case of Laksmi who wanted to attain Krsna in Vrndavana but couldn't because Her worship is in aiswarya. Mahaprabhu told Vyenkatta Bhatta that in order to attain Krsna in Vrndavana one must worship following the footsteps of the Vrajavasis--raganuga bhakti. The Devas can attain Krsna in Vrndavan just as the Srutis attained Sri Krsna in the rasa dance, but only through raganuga bhakti. Otherwise, it is generally not possible even if one is exalted like Brahma, or Shiva.

Radhe Radhe !

Dear Radhapada, are you somehow corroborating the possibility of Srila Haridas Thakur not having completely absorbed in the mood of Vrajabasis and that is why there is not record of his liberation as in Madhurya-bhava ?But probably more likely in Aiswarya-Bhava, since he was strictly following the Lord's Order to propagate the Yuga-dharma (chanting of the Holy Names for the benefit of the general population ) ?
As stated:

quote from (C.C. Antya-lila Ch 11)
The next day, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to Haridasa’s place and inquired from him, “Haridasa, are you well?” Haridasa offered his obeisances to the Lord and replied, “My body is all right, but my mind and intelligence are not well.” Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu further inquired from Haridasa, “Can you ascertain what your disease is?” Haridasa Thakura replied, “My disease is that I cannot complete my rounds.”

“Now that you have become old,” the Lord said, “you may reduce the number of rounds you chant daily. You are already liberated, and therefore you need not follow the regulative principles very strictly.Your role in this incarnation is to deliver the people in general. You have sufficiently preached the glories of the holy name in this world. Now, therefore, please reduce the fixed number of times you chant the Hare Krishna maha- mantra.”

Haridasa Thakura replied, “Kindly hear my real plea. I was born in an inferior family, and my body is most abominable. I always engage in low work. Therefore, I am the lowest, most condemned of men. I am unseeable and untouchable, but You have accepted me as Your servant.This means that You have delivered me from a hellish condition and raised me to Vaikuntha.

Thanks for tecnical assistance !
Ys
Hari

Dear Sri Hari.
I was implying that perhaps by the grace of Sriman Mahaprabhu, Haridas Thakur recieved spiritual greed for madhurya rasa and as a result experienced the gopi's love for Krsna. That is what is meant by 'grace'. Grace is obtained by the mercy of a raganuga devotee. Haridas Thakur is beyond a shadow of a doubt to have received the grace of Sri Caitanya. Prabodhananda Saraswati Thakur writes in his Caitanya Candramrtam that one who lovingly worships the feet of Sri Caitanya will obtain the service of Sri Radha.

Regarding Haridas Thakur having received gopi bhava: Of course, this cannot be confirmed, nor ruled out. It is beyond our understanding. I do remember reading somewhere, perhaps in Gutika of Siddha Krsna Das Baba of Govardhana, that Haridas is within the nitya-lila of Navadwipa. There the devotees assist Mahaprabhu in tasting Radha's love for Krsna and in turn taste the Vraja rasa.

QUOTE(Radhapada @ Oct. 31 2002,13:12)

QUOTE

I do remember reading somewhere, perhaps in Gutika of Siddha Krsna Das Baba of Govardhana, that Haridas is within the nitya-lila of Navadwipa. There the devotees assist Mahaprabhu in tasting Radha's love for Krsna and in turn taste the Vraja rasa.

Radhe Radhe !

Wait a minute... If Srila Haridas is in Navadvipa' nitya-lila, that could be something like: Srila Haridas is an eternal associate of Lord Caitanyadeva, and Srila Pralada Maharaja and Lord Brahma merged in Srila Haridas's and with that both, (S.P.M and Lord Brahma ) could taste the Vraja rasa; without having to change They eternal relation with Lord Vishnu ?

My point goes around the Idea that Srila Prahlada Maharaja and Lord Brahma(in the form of Srila Haridas) didn't achieved liberation in Madhurya-rasa but They probably tasted It through Caitanya's inconceivable Power.

My question now would be:( with great respect) Siddha krishna Das Babaji is talking about an eternal associated named Srila Haridas Thakura that is always with Lord Caitanya's Lilas. If he is an eternal associate, so, where and how this two Great Vishnu-Bhaktas; Lord Brahma and SPM come into the picture ?

Ys
Hari in need of help !

QUOTE

My question now would be:( with great respect) Siddha krishna Das Babaji is talking about an eternal associated named Srila Haridas Thakura that is always with Lord Caitanya's Lilas. If he is an eternal associate, so, where and how this two Great Vishnu-Bhaktas; Lord Brahma and SPM come into the picture ?

Srimad Bhagavata 10th canto, chapter eight:

Sukadeva Gosvami said: To follow the orders of Lord Brahma, Drona, the best of the Vasus, along with his wife, Dhara, spoke to Lord Brahma in this way.

"Please permit us to be born on the planet earth so that after our appearance, the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead, the supreme controller and master of all planets, will also appear and spread devotional service, the ultimate goal of life, so that those born in this material world may very easily be delivered from the miserable condition of materialistic life by accepting this devotional service."

When Brahma said, “Yes, let it be so,” the most fortune Drona, who was equal to Bhagavan, appeared in Vrajapura, Vrndavana, as the most famous Nanda Maharaja, and his wife, Dhara, appeared as mother Yasoda.

If Drona and Dhara took birth in Vraja as Nanda and Yashoda, the pinnacle of Vraja-vatsalya-bhava, by the blessings of Brahmaji, is it possible that Brahmaji was unable to bless himself with Vraja-bhava? One cannot give a blessing one does not have.

Of course Drona and Dhara were incidental identities of Nanda and Yashoda which were displayed with the other descents of the Lord. Sri Radha expands Herself as Vraja-gopis with Shyamasundara, as the queens of Dvaraka with Dvarakadhish, and as Mother Lakshmi with Narayana. Many other parishads of the Lord also have several identities both in Vaikuntha and Vraja as well as in the Srishti-lila (pastime of creation).

Since the lila of Gaura is ontologically higher than the lila of the avataras Vishnu, it naturally follows that the position of Haridas is original and the other identities, such as Brahma and Haridas, are incidental or partial manifestations of his.

QUOTE

Reading the above passage I have to go through again ; it is not that Lord Shiva that came as Lord Advaita Acharya and that is not that Lord Brahma who came as Srila Haridas and are pointed as an example of not being in the mood of Vrajabasis ?
So how could They be in the mood of Brajabasis ?
Srila Rupa Gosvamipada was a conteporaneous of Lord Caitanya Deva, he knowns Srila Haridas and Sri Advaita's Svarupa why then he is pointing Them out ?
Sorry for my impertinence! It is not coming out of my mind !

The verse of Smarana Mangala mentions Brahma, Shiva, Sesa and others. As long as one does not adopt the body of a Vraja-gopi, one cannot understand Vraja-bhava. Harisaran and Madhavananda are also unable to realize the pastimes of Vraja. One who is locked in the prisonhouse of the material body cannot comprehend the daily pastimes of Vraja. These pastimes manifest only to a person who is absorbed in his inner identity, far from awareness of this world. Even personalities as mighty as Brahma, Shiva and Sesa cannot transcend this principle.

If, on the other hand, by the grace of any Vraja-rasika bhakta they adopt the mood and body of a Vraja-gopi, they can attain access to Vraja-lila just like everyone else can. From among all living entities, they are not specifically blocked from Vraja-bhava for any reason whatsoever. The example of Laksmidevi is famous -- she was blocked from Vraja-lila because she did not adopt an appropriate body and bhava, but instead tried to enter the lila in her present form. Do not try to enter the realm of lila in an alien form.

QUOTE

If, on the other hand, by the grace of any Vraja-rasika bhakta they adopt the mood and body of a Vraja-gopi, they can attain access to Vraja-lila just like everyone else can. From among all living entities, they are not specifically blocked from Vraja-bhava for any reason whatsoever. The example of Laksmidevi is famous -- she was blocked from Vraja-lila because she did not adopt an appropriate body and bhava, but instead tried to enter the lila in her present form. Do not try to enter the realm of lila in an alien form.

This is the very importance of receiving a siddha deha revealded by Sri Guru. Smaranam of the intimate pastimes of the Beloved Couple is seen through the inner eye of the manjari svarupa, not the mind's eye of a sadhaka.

QUOTE

From among all living entities, they are not specifically blocked from Vraja-bhava for any reason whatsoever. The example of Laksmidevi is famous -- she was blocked from Vraja-lila because she did not adopt an appropriate body and bhava, but instead tried to enter the lila in her present form.

Dear Madhavaji and Radhapadaji,

If there are not blocked ways to enter in Vraja whatsoever, so then why Personalities Like Brahma, Shiva and Ananta-Sesa has being always pointed as examples of not having the eligibility for enter in Vraja-Lilas ? Would that not be because They can change They Svarupa ?
The example of Laxmidevi is not just about She wanted to enter in Vraja-lila in Her present form, but rather because She can't change Her Beautiful-eternal-Form and Relation with Her Beloved Lord Vishnu !...?

Ys
Hari

Raganuga sadhana is a religion of the mind, according to Visvanatha Cakravarti. The external body is not the issue; it is adopting the mood and service internally as a follower of Vraja dhama's eternal associates. Through practice the soul gradually attains the level of bhava, then prema and is awarded the eternal body of a Vraja associate. The examples of the great vaidhi bhaktas of Visnu (Brahma, Shiva, ect.) are given to demonstrate the rarity of attaining spiritual greed for the loving service a Vraja associate. It is not attained through the reverential worship of God, but through the grace of a raganuga bhakta.

The general idea of vaidhi worship is the direct worship to God. Raganuga worship entails worshipping not only the Lord, but the devotee whoms service one greeds after. That is one reason why Laksmi, although performing austerities, was unable to attain Krsna in Vrndavan, because she did not submit to the gopis. That is the point Mahaprabhu makes to Vyenkata Bhatta. If it would have been an impossible feat for Laksmi to attain then Mahaprabhu would have not used Her as an example. It wasn't because She was Laksmi but because she did not perform worship in the gopis footsteps.

Brahma and Shiva are not particular eternal svarupas. They are incidental forms attained by a qualified living entity. A living entity (jiva) may become either Brahma or one of Shiva's Rudra-expansions. Hence they are not bound by the form of Brahma and Rudra.

Sri Sadashiva Himself is a qualified form of Sri Vishnu. Is the Sadashiva-avatara blocked from bhakta-bhava? No, for in the sixth chapter of Caitanya Caritamrita (Adi-lila), in narrating the glories of Advaita Acarya, it is stated:

avatAra-gaNera bhakta-bhAve adhikAra
bhakta-bhAva haite adhika sukha nAhi Ara
"All the avataras are eligible for bhakta-bhava. There is no greater joy than bhakta-bhava!"

Hence Sri Advaita Prabhu is also jubilant in His bhakta-bhava with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who has given Him a form befitting for participating in His Vraja-pastimes. Let me present in its entirety the verse Radhapada has quoted earlier, from Kavi Karnapura's Caitanya Candrodaya Nataka, act 10. Mahaprabhu blessed Sri Sitanatha (Advaita Prabhu):

vRndAraNyAntarasthaH sarasa vilasitenAtmanAm AtmAnam uccair
Ananda syanda vandIkRta manasam urIkRtya nitya pramodaH
vRndAraNyaika niSThAn svaruci sama tanUn kArayiSyAmi yusmAn
ityevAs te ’vaziSTam kim api mama mahat karma tac cAtaniSye
dAsye kecana kecana praNayinaH sakhye ta evobhaye
rAdhA-mAdhava niSThayA katipaye zrI dvArakAdhIzituH
sakhyAdAv ubhayatra kecana pare ye vAvatArAntare
mayyAbaddha hRdo ’khilAn vitanavai vRndAvanAsaGginaH
“O acarya! I am always absorbed in my blissful luscious pastimes in Vrindavana, and I will give you all bodies suitable for joining me in these Vrindavana-pastimes. That one remaining great duty I will swiftly perform! Some devotees are in a mood of servitude, some are fixed in a fraternal mood. Some are fixed in the love of Radha and Madhava, others in the Lord of Dvaraka and again others in my different descensions such as Rama and Nrisimha. I will lock you all in the chains of my love and give you attachment to Vrindavana!”

Hearing Mahaprabhu’s blessing, Sri Sitanatha replied:

nijecchayA prApaya yad yad eva sthalAntaraM no vapor antaraM vA
tavaitad Azcarya caritram eva jAtismarA eva ciraM smarAmaH
“By Your wish we may attain whatever You want, in any other abode or body! We will eternally remember our origin in your wonderful pastimes!”

Let us also understand that the parikaras of Mahaprabhu do not consequently lose their previous svarupas. It is not, for instance, in the case of Advaita Prabhu, that Mahavishnu and Sadashiva cease to exist upon His entering into a Vraja-svarupa.

The following is a literal translation from 'Sri-Sri Gaura-Govinda Lilamrta Gutika', issued by Sri Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja.
NAVADVIPA:
YOGAPITHA MEETING AND SERVICE

On this divine seat Sri Gaurasundara is seated in the mood of the Yugala Kisora, on His right stands Nityananda Prabhu in the mood of Ananga Manjari, facing Him is Sri Advaita Prabhu in the mood of Visakha-sakhi, and on His left stands Sri Gadadhara, who offers the Lord betel leaves in the mood of Sri Radha. On Gadadhara's left again stands Srivasa in the mood of Sri Manjari.

Outside of this there is a circle of the eight petals of the Yogapitha-lotus where Sri Svarupa Damodara and the other mahantas are standing, in the mood of the astasakhi, headed by Lalita. In the north is Sri Svarupa Damodara, in the northeast is Ramananda Raya, in the east Govindananda Thakura, in the southeast is Vasu Ramananda, in the south is Sivananda Sena, in the southwest is Govinda Ghosa, in the west is Vakresvara Pandita and in the northeast is Vasudeva Ghosa. In the outer corona of petals Jahnava Thakurani is in the north, Sri Govinda Kaviraja in the northeast, Karnapura Kaviraja in the east, Nrsimha Kaviraja in the southeast, Bhagavan Kaviraja in the south, Ballabikanta Kaviraja in the southwest, Gopiramana Kaviraja in the west and Gokula Kaviraja in the northeast, all in the mood of the sakhis.

In the corona in the filament the eight Gosvamis are standing in the mood of the eight manjaris, headed by Sri Rupa Manjari. In the north is Sri Rupa Gosvami, in the north-east is Lokanatha Gosvami, in the east is Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, in the south-east is Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami, in the south is Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, in the south-west is Sri Jiva Gosvami, in the west is Sanatana Gosvami and in the northwest is Krsna dasa Gosvami. Then there are the four surrounding doorkeepers - at the northern gate stands Kasisvara Pandita, at the eastern gate Mukunda Thakura, at the southern gate Sivananda Cakravarti and at the western gate Sri Rama Pandita. Surrounding the outer petals of Jahnava Thakurani the guruvarga (one's succession of spiritual masters) is standing and behind his own Sri Gurudeva the sadhaka dasa is standing.

Dear Madhavaji and Radhapadaji,

First,please, accept my sincere Pranamas for the precious time that you are put in ! And many, many,Thanks for the endeavor of the devotees that are helping to keep up this Raganuga's Planet OM-line !

Accoding to the above list, another question based on Srila Haridas, arose : Why Srila Haridas is not in that list of devotees that are absorbed in the inner mood of Vraja-Gopis ? What defer him from the others ? Murari Gupta is not there and we know that he was the famous Hanuman in Rama-Lila, and Srila Haridas, as a combination of two Vishnu-Bhaktas(Lord Brahma and Srila Pralada Maharaja) ?

There were others that are no in that list, as for example :Sri Sundarananda; In Gouranga-LIla he is cosidered to be an incanation of the cowherd boy named Sudama of Krishna-Lila.
Goura-Ganoddesha-Dipika (127) confirm as follow:

pura sudama namasid adya thakkura-sundarah / " Whose name was formely Sudama has now become SundaraThakur."

Sudama is the son of Ratna-bhanu, one of the three younger brothers of Maharaja Vrishabhanu. Thus he is the cousin of Srimat Radharani. Sudama's sister is the famous Sri Rupa Manjari, personal attendant of Sri Lalita Sakhi.
( extrated from Sri Sri Preyo-Bhakti-Rasarnava of Sri Nayanananda Takhura )

So here we can see that there in Gouranga-Lila are many type of relationships and are present with caracteriscs and personalities that represent them. The question about our dear Srila Haridas Thakura is : where does he fits in and what is his Svarupa,who is him anyways ? What type of Liberation did he achieved ?

Ys
Hari

The yogapith described here in Navadwipa dhama corresponds with the Yogapith in Vraja dhama. In the Yogapith in Vraja dhama Sri Radha-Krsna stand in the carpel of the lotus flower surrounded by the petals of the lotus flower where the sakhis are standing. There are no cowherd boys in the Yogapith mandir of Vraja. The associates of Mahaprabhu standing in the Navadwipa Yogapith possess the bhava of the sakhis standing in the Yogapith in Vraja dhama.

QUOTE

The question about our dear Srila Haridas Thakura is : where does he fits in and what is his Svarupa,who is him anyways ? What type of Liberation did he achieved ?

As far as it can be assertained, there is no information concering what bhava or identity Sri Haridas Thakur possess in respects to Vraja dhama, nor what type of position he occupies there.

Here is some interesting information concering Sri Haridas Thakur:

According to one Gaudiya Vaisnava biography, Haridasa Thakur took birth in a brahmana family. His parents passed away when he was a small child and hence was raised by a pious muslim family. I have also heard that Ananta Das Pandit Baba also cites this account.

Haridas Thakur took diksa according to his own statement written in Caitanya Caritamrta:

sankhya-nama-sankirtana--ei maha-yajna manye
tahate diksita ami ha-i prati-dine

I have on initiation vowed everyday to perform a great sacrifice of a numerical count of chanting the holy name .

It is described in the same biography that he was named 'Nama Brahma Haridas' because of his fixation of chanting 300,000 names of Krsna. Within the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition, the Hare Krsna maha mantra is known as 'Tarak-Brahma-Nama'. I would think the nama Nama Brahma Haridas is in relationship with chanting the holy name, not with his being an incarnation of Brahma.

In Caitanya Bhagavat I find this description in the 16th chapter of Adi-lila:

People would gather around him (Haridas Thakur) just to see the unrestricted tears of love of Godhead that flowed profusely from his eyes drenching his entire body. Even the strictest atheists marvelled at his behavior. Horripilations swelled across his body like thousands of blooming flowers and even Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva were amazed by his devotion.

In Caitanya Caritamrta there is this statement:

caitanyavatare krsna-preme lubdha hana
brahma-siva-sanakadi prthivite janmiya

Brahma, Shiva, and the Kumars headed by Sanaka took birth on earth being greedy for Krsna prema during Caitanya's decent.

krsna-nama lana nace, prema-vanyaya bhase
narada-prahladadi ase manusya-prakase

Under the guise of humans, Narada, Prahlada and others chanted and danced the holy name of Krsna in an inundation of prema.

laksmi-adi kari krsna-preme lubdha hana
nama prema asvadila manusye janmiya

Laksmi and others being greed for Krsna preme are taking birth in human society to experience tasting the holy name in prema.

QUOTE(Radhapada @ Nov. 03 2002,08:40)

The yogapith described here in Navadwipa dhama corresponds with the Yogapith in Vraja dhama. In the Yogapith in Vraja dhama Sri Radha-Krsna stand in the carpel of the lotus flower surrounded by the petals of the lotus flower where the sakhis are standing. There are no cowherd boys in the Yogapith mandir of Vraja. The associates of Mahaprabhu standing in the Navadwipa Yogapith possess the bhava of the sakhis standing in the Yogapith in Vraja dhama.

Sri Sundarananda; In Gouranga-LIla he is cosidered to be an incanation of the cowherd boy named Sudama of Krishna-Lila.
Goura-Ganoddesha-Dipika (127) confirm as follow:

pura sudama namasid adya thakkura-sundarah / " Whose name was formely Sudama has now become SundaraThakur."

Sudama is the son of Ratna-bhanu, one of the three younger brothers of Maharaja Vrishabhanu. Thus he is the cousin of Srimat Radharani. Sudama's sister is the famous Sri Rupa Manjari, personal attendant of Sri Lalita Sakhi.
( extrated from Sri Sri Preyo-Bhakti-Rasarnava of Sri Nayanananda Takhura )

This information above was given just to emphasize the variety of Rasas that were present in Goura-Lila

QUOTE

In Caitanya Caritamrta there is this statement:

caitanyavatare krsna-preme lubdha hana
brahma-siva-sanakadi prthivite janmiya

Brahma, Shiva, and the Kumars headed by Sanaka took birth on earth being greedy for Krsna prema during Caitanya's decent.

krsna-nama lana nace, prema-vanyaya bhase
narada-prahladadi ase manusya-prakase

Under the guise of humans, Narada, Prahlada and others chanted and danced the holy name of Krsna in an inundation of prema.

laksmi-adi kari krsna-preme lubdha hana
nama prema asvadila manusye janmiya

Laksmi and others being greed for Krsna preme are taking birth in human society to experience tasting the holy name in prema.

Looks like that all the Great Demigods and Demigoddess were invited for the Grand Sankirtana-Party that Lord Gouranga perfomed on Bhumi-Loka.They all came to experience the Bhava of Vrajabasis that are situated on different Rasas with the Lord; Krishna-prema can be realized in any of the five Rasas, not just in Madhurya. Some of this great Personalities came for that love accord to Their relation with God.
Was Madhurya-bhava only for those who previously had that relationship with Sri Sri Radha Krishna ?
All glories to the mysterious and dear Nama Acharya Srila Haridas Thakura !

Ys
Hari

Dear Vaishnavas please accept my eternal Dandavats !

Radhe Radhe !
Sri Govardhana Kijay !

NAVADVIPA:
YOGAPITHA MEETING AND SERVICE

On this divine seat Sri Gaurasundara is seated in the mood of the Yugala Kisora, on His right stands Nityananda Prabhu in the mood of Ananga Manjari, facing Him is Sri Advaita Prabhu in the mood of Visakha-sakhi, and on His left stands Sri Gadadhara, who offers the Lord betel leaves in the mood of Sri Radha. On Gadadhara's left again stands Srivasa in the mood of Sri Manjari.

I have another question on this subject : It is said that Srila Ramanada Ray is Visakha-sakhi in Sri Krishna-nitya-lila and She came to help Lord Gouranga in His pastime. How comes that Sri Advaita Acharya assume the mood of Visakha devi since Ramananda Ray was present at that time ?
And does that relationship has anything to do with "Nagara Nagari Lila", in other words, is Lord Caitanya in the mood of Sri Krishna and all the other members of Pancha-Tattva are in the mood of Gopis,(at any moment)and together They would enjoy in that particular Rasa ?

I hope I asked correctly....

Ys
Hari

QUOTE

I have another question on this subject : It is said that Srila Ramanada Ray is Visakha-sakhi in Sri Krishna-nitya-lila and She came to help Lord Gouranga in His pastime. How comes that Sri Advaita Acharya assume the mood of Visakha devi since Ramananda Ray was present at that time ?

As far as I have undestood, He has not assumed this mood, He IS Visakha-sakhi. I recall hearing that each of the asta-sakhis have three descents in Gaura-lila. For instance Tungavidya descended both as Prabodhananda and as Vakresvara. Lalita-sakhi descended as Svarupa Damodara and Dhruvananda Brahmacari, and was also present in the body of Gadadhara Pandit. Citra-sakhi appeared as Vanamali and Govindananda Thakura, Campakalata appeared as Sivananda Sena and Raghava Gosvami, and so forth. It would be interesting to do a thorough study of this at a later time. I may do it next time I go to Vraja.

QUOTE

And does that relationship has anything to do with "Nagara Nagari Lila", in other words, is Lord Caitanya in the mood of Sri Krishna and all the other members of Pancha-Tattva are in the mood of Gopis,(at any moment)and together They would enjoy in that particular Rasa ?

During Madhyahna-lila in Navadvipa, absorbed in the mood of Sri Yugala Kishora, Mahaprabhu and His associates such as Gadadhara, Nityananda and Advaita engage in jala-vihara-lila in Ganga, absorbed in thoughts of Sri Radha Kund, and Mahaprabhu splashes water on them just as Sri Krishna does in the Vraja-lila.

Later on, after Mahaprabhu has taken rest, He hears Svarupa singing about the pastimes of playing dice and worshiping the sun-god. Srivas then brings the paraphernalia for dice-game. In great ecstatic love, Mahaprabhu begans playing dice with Gadadhara. Absorbed in the narration of Svarupa Damodara, everyone becomes immersed in Vraja-bhava.

Here we must consider that despite the external manifestation of Vraja-lila in the pastimes of Mahaprabhu, it is always accompanied by inner absorption in Vraja-bhava, and this absorption is the prominent mood on such occasions.

I do not know anything about "Nagara Nagari Lila".

QUOTE

Was Madhurya-bhava only for those who previously had that relationship with Sri Sri Radha Krishna ?

No.

QUOTE

It would be interesting to do a thorough study of this at a later time. I may do it next time I go to Vraja.

That would be great ! And please do not forget to get some more details about the life, thoughts, conversations,and the type of bhajam of Srila Haridas Thakura.

QUOTE

During Madhyahna-lila in Navadvipa, absorbed in the mood of Sri Yugala Kishora, Mahaprabhu and His associates such as Gadadhara, Nityananda and Advaita engage in jala-vihara-lila in Ganga, absorbed in thoughts of Sri Radha Kund, and Mahaprabhu splashes water on them just as Sri Krishna does in the Vraja-lila.

That is a beautiful vision !

QUOTE

Later on, after Mahaprabhu has taken rest, He hears Svarupa singing about the pastimes of playing dice and worshiping the sun-god. Srivas then brings the paraphernalia for dice-game. In great ecstatic love, Mahaprabhu begans playing dice with Gadadhara. Absorbed in the narration of Svarupa Damodara, everyone becomes immersed in Vraja-bhava.

In the north western coner of Radha kunda is the green grove of Sudevi, named Sudevi Sukhada.
Everthing in this playground of Radha and Krishna , that is, the wines , trees, and birds, is green, and the platforms and pavilions are studted with green emeralds here Radha and Krishna plays dice.
from:Pilgrimage to Radhakunda

Ys
Hari

By the way, the descriptions on Madhyahna-lila were from Siddha Baba's Gutika.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov. 05 2002,18:10)

By the way, the descriptions on Madhyahna-lila were from Siddha Baba's Gutika,

Thank you !

Ys
Hari :cool: