Familiar and respective pronouns in poetry -

As we all know, there are three forms for second person in Bengali, tu_i, tumi and Apani - the first being one you would use for children and childhood friends, and that would be rather disrespectful if used for others, the second being the common familiar form, and the third being the respectful form one would use for one's elders and so forth.

I've often wondered why in many songs we see the second familiar form used instead of the respectful address. It wouldn't strike me as odd in songs that are steeped in the world of lIlA, but I find it hard to understand in songs that express one's lowly position and beg for the Lord's favor. An example being:


Could someone explain this?

I can't speak for Bengali per se, but in Japanese, which has a similar honorific structure, it can be seen as ingratiating to constantly speak in a very formal/polite tone, It puts a cold distance between the speaker and the listener, Again, this is Japanese, not Bengali, but the concept may have some cross-cultural legs.

Just off the top of my head, there aren't 2 levels but 3 and 'Tumi' is both lowly and very high and reverential, while 'Apni' is respectful but mundane.

But I think there is a bit of confusion, because a Bengali friend explained it to me that one addresses one's father 'Tumi' because of the intimacy involved. So is Tumi more intimate and Apni more formal then? What about the supposed insulting overtones of addressing someone as Tumi?

So I suppose this is little help and I am just adding to the confusion.

As far as I remember tuwA is an even more intimate tumi. That you might address a chilld or dearly loved person. Why both forms are used in that couplet I don't know.

tuwA = tava ("your"). This is not really a Bengali form, but Brajabuli.

God is the most intimate being, therefore using the intimate form is considered appropriate, but in reality is rarely used.

Rarely used - including in the various padas we read? Now that I think of it, I can't think of any examples of God addressed with a honorific pronoun in the songs we sing. Can you?

"tuwA bine/tuwA binA" or "tomA binA" is the same which means “without you”.

In the second line “tumi” is used as nominative, the subject, while tuYA/tuwA is used to give other case-relationships. e.g. “tuYA/tuwA pade loinu zaraNa” meaning “to your feet”.

aizvarya-jJAnete sab jagat mizrita |
aizvarya-zithila-preme nAhi mora prIta || (C.C Adi 4.17)

That might be the answer.

Indeed it might, but that raises a host of other questions regarding the conjoint presence of both on rAga-mArga in general, and specifically in the context of different genres of prayer.

Oh well, I promised my brain a few days off from in-depth analysis on topics like this, so this'll have to wait until the weekend.

Historically, tumi is the plural of tui. Apani is a third person singular, derived supposedly from "AtmA", i.e. = "self." You still see Apani used in that sense occasionally, and in Hindi it is still used, usually in a slightly altered form "apanA."

(Similarly, Ami is the plural of mui). The respective plurals torA, tomarA, AmarA, etc., are all later creations.

What is the differance between tava and bhavadiya?

Also, just to digress a bit. I'm given to understand there is a great lesson in sanskrt grammer to be found in this sloka;

kRSNo rakSatu no jagatrayaguruh kRSNaM namadhvaM sadA
kRSNenAkhilazatravo vinihatAh kRSNAya tasmai namah/
kRSNAd-eva samuthitaM jagadidaM kRSNasya dAso'smyahaM
kRSNe tiSThati vizvametadakhilaM he kRSNa rakSasva mAm//

Mukunda Mala 43

To express the possessive, you can either use the genitive or a possessive pronoun/adjective. bhavAn is the masculine pronoun, polite form. Its genitive form is bhavataH, its possessive pronoun is bhavadIyaH.

The normal pronoun of you is tvam, its genitive is tava and its possessive pronoun form is tvadIyaH. (madIyaH, tadIyaH, asmadIyaH, yuSmadIyaH are others).

Thanks, Jagatji , that's very interesting. It's a bit like you and thee because the verb has to have a differant ending, as in, you have spoken well or thou hast spoken well or you speak well and thou speak'st well. This new Bhagavata I've got shifts into the honory form when the lord is being addressed there, and it seems so apt.

he kRSNa rakSasva mAm. I started work yesterday at 5 am and my lunch break was between 9 and 10. So I missed all the bombs that went off. I spoke to a no. 30 driver today and he told me the driver of the bus that was blown up yesterday ( a no. 30) was unhurt, but others were injured and some met fate.
(just in case you were wondering)

Isn't this amazing to see how the Bhakti of the poet is expressed through Vibhakti? Each reference to Krishna in the above verse is in a different case-ending - from Nominative to Vocative.

Madhava might shift it to Sanskrit sub-forum.