Thoughts on "The Hinduization of America" - Transformation of one's surroundings

I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on the editorial, The Hinduization of America.

While I certainly wouldn't expect to find the atmosphere of the original Vraja-dhama anywhere except in its actual geographic location (meditations aside), there certainly is a culture for invoking holy places and rivers there. The invocation of the waters of the holy rivers, gaGge ca yamune caiva ... jale 'smin sannidhiM kuru is a part of the daily life of everyone engaged in the practice of archana.

Dr. Kapoor describes the residence of Rupa and Sanatana in Ramakeli as follows:


We know how the Goswamis have repeatedly told of the importance of vraja-vAsa in their writings. Sri Jiva, however, in commenting on kUryat vAsaM vraje sadA (BRS 1.2.294), has written that in the absence of a possibility to physically live in Vraja, one may also do that within the mind (tad-abhAve manasApIty arthaH).

What, then, is the import of all of this as the Gaudiya tradition unfolds globally? There will inevitably be both die-hard sAdhakas who will settle for nothing short of the "real thing" and lay members who try to incorporate the teachings of the tradition into their current lives as far as possible. How is the aspect of Vraja-vAsa incorporated into their lives aside the occasional pilgrimages? It is fairly safe to say, I believe, that the option of mental residence will not be particularly wholesome in the midst of their busy lives.

At Caitanya Math in Mayapur is there not a kind of replica of Govardhana Hill made by BSST. There is also the eample of New Vrndavan in ISKCON and Barshana Dham of ISDL. Also the proliferation of New this and New that names of ISKCON centers. As if a small part of Culver City, Los Angeles (i.e New Dvaraka) somehow has some relationship with Dvaraka (either in India or in Vaikuntha). Even hear on Maui Turiya das and Shaktimati have called their rural temple property Vrindavan Gardens and it even has a couple of ponds called Radha Kunda and Syama Kunda.

Personally I find these attempts to lend sanctity to our surroundings laudable. At the same time there will always be physical pilgrimage to the original versions of these places in India and meditation on the ideal forms of them in the spiritual world within our minds as well.

I perceive it as a sweet invitation to hear a lila-name associated with some location in the West, especially a place of bhajan. Isn't it that a place becomes sanctified by the presence of saints? So it could be hoped that an "ordinary" place gains some higher degree of sanctity due to bhajan being done, and a Thakur being worshiped there?

What is really the definition of a place of pilgrimage? And how is a Holy Dham defined? How much of it is created by the living tradition, by preserved oral history? If this is seen as a vital factor, there could really be a kind of transplantation of sanctity, the starting of a new tradition at a new place (a favorite concept in the U.S. where no really old traditions exist, except perhaps within the culture of the Amerindians)...

What may be a bit problematic is the giving of names with a specific lila-content to places and the silent claims implicated in such name-giving. On the other hand we see that already in the naming of persons, even though in that case the appendage of a "das" clarifies everything. The question arises, if there is a type of appendage to a place existing as well that would do the same. With books there is the use of a referential diminuendo, like in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu Bindhu.

The term Manasi-Ganga comes to mind, even though that name is also part of a specific lila... At any rate, there are interesting forms of creativity at play when otherwise nameless places suddenly receive deeply significant names.

This is certainly a topic of intrest for me personally. I recently posted the same article on a different site. (I also happen to live in the Florida city now praised in sanskrit shlokas ).

Rather than Hinduization, I find Dhamafication to be a much more interesting trend discussed. This article is a couple of years old and since there has also been a Pushtimarg temple consecrated in Pennslyvania, which is lauded as the only authorised expansion of Nathdwar by the mandir trust in the western hemisphere ( http://vraj.org/ ) , just as the Pittsburgh Venkateshwar mandir was funded in part and authorised by the TTD.

It seems a 'Dhama' is both made, and revealed. Made by the devotion of the bhaktas, and in places like Tirupati and Nathdwar, centered around a self-manifest or very ancient deity. In the US, as far as I know we are lacking in the svayambhu-murti category, but with the size of the Indian population it is inevitable that temples will be built and the Lord worshipped with love. What is interesting to ponder is what will be attributed to these places in 500-1000 years. There are already shlokas and bhajans praising some places in America as being dwelling places of the Lord, as the article discusses.

This is a interesting trend. The past 5 years or so there have been many Mandirs consecrated in the US. As one being at present stuck in America, I find the presence these Mandirs in this country to be a blessing indeed!

I personally, do not see IGM as participating in this trend, as these mandirs I am speaking of are large, and in many cases constructed according to vastu, and hiring full time pandas and pujaris from India; not the hippy-esque shenanagans of many Iskcon and other cultish 'dhams'.

Iskcon temples here are usually resorted to by Indians who have access to no other mandir, or who were affiliated with Iskcon in India through life-membership etc. Iskcon preaching is too sectarian and naturally cannot appeal to many Indians here. On the other hand many of these 'Hindu' temples will install a variety of deities, even from different regions within India, in addition to the main deity, to meet the needs of a broad range of worshippers in the area.

With regards to temples being established, isn't there a difference drawn between dhAma and tIrtha? As far as I've understood, the dhAma are the places in which the Lord displayed his pastimes during his earthly presence, and the tIrtha may also include any other places that have become revered as sacred due to their contact with particular deities or temples.

Radhe Radhe!

That is correct.

Rasaraja dasa

Yes I tend think so too, at least that is the Gaudiya understanding I embibed. It seems sometimes others glorify the existence of a well-known deity somewhere as place of the Lord's personal appearance as well, and therefore a dhama. I don't have a dictionary handy but dhAma can simply mean refuge as well I think. TIrtha is sometimes described in English a 'ford' or 'crossing point', which has pretty broad application, ie. the entire Ganga, anywhere associated with any enlightened sage, a place where holy relics are kept etc.

In India there is the Badrinath, Dwarka, Puri, Rameshvaram Char-dham (including Nathdwar for Pushtimargis), although Krsna never visited Puri in His bhauma-lila. There is the Char-dham of the Himalaya: Badrinath, Kedarnath, Gangotri, Yamunotri. Gaudiyas of course recognize Vrindavan, Puri and Navadvipa. And there are likely dozens of other 'dhamas'.

I think in America there is a tendency call these mandirs as dhamas because they are among the first prominent places of worship stablished outside of India, and therefore enjoy a special status as such, which will likely increase over time, at least in America itself. Here are some blurps from Vraj, PA to illustrate the point:Or this, (notice the word 'reappearance'): (I pasted this quote directly although it seems to be an incomplete sentence)

This is good stuff, Angrezi-ji, you are right on the money with your etymologies. Historically, a tIrtha was a place where a river could be crossed -- in other words, a place where a river was shallow enough to be accessible (think bathing ghats as another means to get close to the water). These would naturally be places where saints and sages would congregate, because fresh water is so important not only to religious ritual but also to the day-to-day practical life of one in an Azrama environment. Over time, because of such activities at common crossings, the word tended to lose its original meaning and be used more particularly as a place of pilgrimage that rated a certain level of religious respect.

The Lord's dhAma, on the other hand, does not depend on water levels or gently sloping grounds, or even the presence of saints, although a dhAma is by nature full of such personages. This is because, according to Gaudiya siddhAnta, the Lord's dhAma is eternal, and independent of any material cause. When the Lord displays a manifest pastime here in our quaint little brahmANDa, he brings along his own purely spiritual (sat-cit-Ananda) dhAma within which to disply his lIlA, and by his great mercy he often leaves his dhAma behind to purify us and to aid in our bhajana when he departs.

Any saint who wishes can create a tIrtha by hanging around a place long enough, but only God can make a tree -- or a dhAma.

Dandavats,
Lancer

Thank you for spelling that out, Lancer. That was precisely what I was thinking of in terms of "replicating" dhAmas - though one could, in theory, establish tIrthas that would become virtually identical in esteem with some age-old tIrthas of India in due course of time, it would be virtually impossible to establish new, duplicate dhAmas for the very reasons mentioned on the origins of the dhAma.

Though one could argue that a spiritually potent siddha-mahAtma could invoke the presence of the dhAma somewhere by the virtue of his bhajana, the fact of the matter is that the "real thing" only descends when the Lord periodically descends to display his pastimes in this world.

I gather from the description of Rupa-Sanatana's garden that it was more of an uddIpana than an attempt to actually transform and invoke the dhAma in a tangible and permanent sense on their premises.

Of course, then, you have a question on the status of the duplicate Govardhan and Radha-Shyama-kundas at Sri Chaitanya Math, but then again you find so many parallels drawn between Navadvipa and Vrindavan as non-different that it is virtually impossible to challenge a parallel unless it is patently absurd. Whoever figured some of them out to begin with, I wonder? Let's have a look at Bhakti-ratnakar.

It is believed that angry Shiva performed the Tandava dance with Sati's burned body in his hands. In the process, the different body parts of Sati fell in different places on earth. These places, 52 in number, are called Shakti peethas. They are places of pilgrimage.

Since ya'll be talkin bout dhAma's, tIrthas and the traditional Char-dhams of India..

I thought I'd throw in peethas ..and what about the 12 Jyothirlinga sthalas dedicated to Lord Shiva.

dhAma's
tIrtha's
peetha's
sthala's
Char-dham

anymore to add to this list...?

Just quickly--the Hindu attitude to sacred place appears to be different from the Muslims, as was being discussed in the "Beyond Belief" thread.

What about ksetras, Divyadesams, and baitaks?

You be gettin down now angrezi..! You be gettin it all together now..!

Can anyone define any of the terms above? What are the common factors of the holy places in each of those categories?

If we work on a basic division into 1) dhAma and 2) tIrtha, defining the former as the sacred place that descended with the descent of the Lord, I believe most of what's been listed would fall under the second category.

By the way, where is the concept of cAra-dhAma coming from?

Kedarnath Temple is situated at 11500 ft above sea level in the Tehri-Garhwal range of Hills. Pilgrimage to this abode of Lord Shiva is considered to be the toughest, next only to Mount Kailash. Kedarnath is also one of the 12 Jyothirlingams held in reverence. Adi Sankaracharya is said to have worshipped Shiva here. The Tamil Saint Poets Thirugnansambandar and Sundarar have sung pathigams in praise of this deity.

Antiquity: The age of the temple is traced to Mahabharatha period. The original structure is believed to have been built by Pandavas. Janameyjayan, son of Parikshit Maharaj, is said to have constructed the Mandap (Hall) before sanctum sanctorum. The present structure is a result of renovations over a period of time.

This moderately sized temple consists of a sanctum and a hall in front. Outside the temple, in the open sky, there is a majestic Nandi (Bull – vehicle of Shiva) facing Shiva. Just at the entrance, there is Vinayaka - with a human face in a posture of prayer. The mandap, houses the images of Pandavas and their wife Draupadi – original builders of the temple besides Krishna (mentor of Pandavas – a reincarnation of Vishnu) and Kunti (mother of Pandavas). While Yudhistir, eldest of the Pandavs stands symbolising Dharma , Arjun is dressed for performing penance. Others – Bhim, Nakul & Sahadev stand duly armed with their respective traditional arms.

In addition, there is also a small bull and Swami Veerbhadra inside the temple. Just before the sanctum sanctorum, an image of KedarGauri , consort of Shiva is located facing west. Shiva is worshipped in the form of a Shiva Lingam, facing South. There is also a small temple for Bhairav, to the south of main temple, who is said to guard the Kedarnath temple when it is closed for worship during winter.

Legend associated with this temple: After winning the Kurukshetra war, Pandavas felt remorseful for having killed thousands of lives including those of their cousins. In order to seek salvation from the sins of war, they sought the advice of their mentor, Krishna. Krishna advised them to worship Shiva. Pandavas searched for Lord Shiva in the Shivalik mountains in the Tehri - Garhwal region.

Shiva led them to this site and here, assumed the form of Bull and started grazing amongst the cattle. The Pandavas devised a ruse, to seek Shiva, who had hidden himself amidst a flock of cattle. At dusk, when the cattle were taken back to their shelters, Bhim – gigantic in stature , strongest and courageous of Pandavas stretched his legs across the mountains so that cattle could pass through his legs.

As suspected, Shiva, in bull form refused to do so and instead sank himself into the earth. Realising quickly that this was the play of Shiva, Bhim bent downwards and could catch hold of the hump (back portion of the bull). Shiva, pleased with the determination of Pandavas, blessed them and granted them salvation from their sins. The hump, in conical form, is worshipped as Shiva (in the form of a Shivalingam).

Parvathi is also believed to have performed penance here to become integral part of Lord Shiva – Ardhanareeswar Swaroopam or form.

http://www.templenet.com/Himalaya/hima3.html

Badrinath

Considered as one of the most sacred centres of pilgrimage, Badrinath is situated in the Tehri-Garhwal hill tracks (Uttarakhand) at the height of 10,248 feet above sea level. This shrine has been visited in the past by religious leaders such as Sankaracharya. Badrinath has been sung in chaste tamil verse by one of the Alwar saints of Tamilnadu (Tirumangaialwar) , in the 8th century CE (and has also been mentioned by Perialwar, as one of the sacred centers of Vishnu) ; is considered to be one of the 108 sacred centers of the Sri Vaishnavite religion.

Antiquity: Srimad Bhagvadam has explained the significance of the temple and the glory of Shri Badri Narayan. However the history and origins of the temple have not been well recorded with due authenticity. The Kings of Garhwal built the present structure of the temple about two centuries ago. The sitting (padmasan) posture of the presiding deity – a common form of Buddhists’ icons - has led Buddhists to believe that this is nothing but a stone image of the Buddha.

With history still suffering with paucity of details, another version is that the original temple was desecrated by Buddhists only to be reclaimed later by Hindus. The image was believed to have been thrown into Narad Kund, near river Alaknanda, and was later retrieved by Adi Sankara. The image was then restored to its original position and protocols of worship were established.

The sanctum here houses Lord Badri Narayan, Kuber ( God of wealth), Narad Rishi, Uthavar, Nar & Narayan. Lord Badri Narayan (also called as Badri Vishal) is armed with Conch (Shankh) and Chakra in two arms in a lifted posture and two more arms rested on the lap in Yogamudra. The principal image is of black stone and it represents Vishnu seated in meditative pose. The temple also houses Garud (Vahana – vehicle of Lord Narayan) and Goddess Mahalaxmi (referred as Arvidavalli Thayar by Tamilians). Also here are the idols of Adi Sankara, Swami Desikan and Shri Ramanujar.

The temple, moderate in size, can be divided into three parts – sanctum, the darshan mandap and sabha mandap The temple has suffered from avalanches, several times in the past and renovated. The Kings of Garhwal renovated the present structure almost two centuries ago.

The beginning of Guru-Shisya parampara is supposed to have its roots here. This is symbolised by two range of mountains – Nar range of mountains (representing the individual soul - Jeevatma) and Narayan range of mountains (on which side is the temple situated – representing the supreme reality - Paramatma). These forms were used to convey the Ashtakshara mantras, Vedhas and their importance. River Alaknanda, considered to be one of the most sacred, divides the two ranges of mountains.

It is said that "there are many sacred spots of pilgrimage in the heavens, earth and the nether world, but there has been none equal to Badri, nor shall there be".

Legends associated with this temple: MahaVishnu is believed to have done his penance in this place. Seeing the Lord doing his penance in the open, Goddess Mahalaxmi is believed to have assumed the form of Badri (elandai) tree to provide him shelter to face the onslaught of the weather conditions, hence the name of Badri Narayan.

Legend has it that Lord Vishnu identified Nar & Naryan forms to be of his own to Narad Rishi. Narad Rishi did his penance here and is believed to be worshipping these forms of supreme God with the Ashtakshara mantra even now.

http://www.templenet.com/badri.html

I am still interested to know what the Dham really is, in terms of a definition. It is common knowledge that the Dham descends along with the Lord. But what is really Dham and what not? Is it all that you see within the circumference of its boundary, or is it the invisible substratum behind the visible features? I know how I approach it for myself, taking it as it is and allowing it to reveal itself to me, but I would like to know now whether there are clearer definitions and how such definitions are formed. Is the Dham the ideal place that a sadhaka envisions in lila-smarana, or is it also the actual field, concrete and market-place out there? (To give the question a more grossly graspable form: Is the place where I go to the latrine also Holy Dham? I put it consciously in the "I" form in order to highlight the conflict arising if the definition of dham is dependent on awareness...)

I personally went through the formative years with Sri BR Sridhar Maharaja who stressed the concept of the Hidden Reality. When you focus on Nabadwip Dham and the reality that Sri Gauranga is embodying, you approach reality through the indirect path, in that reality proper is hidden and disguised. Nabadwip Dham is presented as Gupta Vrindavan, the hidden Vrindavan, as Sri Gauranga hides and reveals Radha and Krishna combined. So the apparent is not what is reality in its deepest essence, but the hidden one is, and the process of revelation is one of an ongoing discovery, self-discovery in the increasing realization of one's own inadequacy in reference to the reality hiding and revealing him/herself.

This interpretation has some deeply moving traits. Its cognitive basis, another important conceptualization by Sri BR Sridhar Maharaj, relies on the understanding of subjectivity (atman) within the enfolding super-subjectivity (param-atman, bhagavan). In this view all essential inner individual development is enfolded in the larger "collective" view and existence of Bhagavan, while the seeing of things in objective terms independently from oneself and not as part of the super-subjective flow of Bhagavan is a form of illusion. In this understanding things of common reality are not what they seem to be, but they are opportunities to unveil their hidden substratum, their connection in the ongoing process of revelation.

You can easily follow from this that in this perspective approaching Vrindavan Dham is a highly delicate affair. Sri BR Sridhar Maharaja used to say we could only walk on our heads in Vrindavan. Since that is patently impossible, you can either stay out of Vrindavan or enter it only in the way those dandavat performing sadhakas cirumambulate Goverdhan. With Nabadwip Dham it is easier, since there Vrindavan is hidden in a most merciful way, while it is still as sacred as anything, but in terms of its nature of being Gupta Vrindavan it's easier to approach. But then what is Vrindavan Dham?

A degree more complex seems to me to be Puri Dham. While Vrindavan and Nabadwip Dham are connected theologically with the descent of avatara, or of Svayam Bhagavan, in terms of physical janma-lila, Puri Dham is in no such connection. This seems to be a case of inner-traditional designation, of acceptance due to theological and historical significance.

Aside from a clarification of the nature of Dham as a Gaudiya concept and the way it has developed and been lived in the oral and literal tradition, the question arises what is with other dhams, such as Vishnu's, Shiva's, and Amma's? Are they also recognised in the ways that they are presented by the respective traditions? Most of Sri Vishnu's places are, I know, but what about Shiva's and Amma's?

The dhAma has three aspects:

• aprakata-prakAza - the unmanifest dhAma at the peak of vaikuntha
• prakaTa-prakAza - the manifest dhAma that appears in this world during the Lord's prakaTA-lIlA
• dRSyamAna-prakAza - the aspect of the dhAma that is visible for our eyes

More on this when I find a bit more time. In the meantime: Glories of Vraja-dhama.

In view of the aforementioned link and the talk given by your revered babaji, I feel I need to clarify my request for a discussion of the concept of Dham. The focus for me is on the life-aspect, how you experience the present moment when in the Dham. Sraddha is not dependent on senses, but relying on them. Without the senses, the body, there would be no question of sraddha and the further development.

The first two prakashas are not approachable by the senses, but by faith. The third one is open to senses. The second is hidden in it now and approachable through sraddha, sadhu-sanga and the enfolding steps. So what is now the nature of dRSyamAna-prakAza in practical terms? It is seen and felt, yet does it also have a hidden nature by dint of itself (not the prakata prakash)? Radha-Kund water as liquid prem is thus "stuff" seen, sensed, tasted, it is what it is in terms of water but also much more. All of Vraja is divine as what it is and appears yet is also more, transcendent at the same time. I think we are facing an apory, or a coincidence of opposites which cannot be rationally or intuitively understood. So the question remains, how to deal with it, "how to go to the bathroom" with it, if you permit my bringing it to the point here.

I think this (and the preceding points of the same post) is a very wise statement Nabadip!

This is I think why I tried in a round about way to bring up the fact that 'dhAma' is perceived differently and at different levels of reality by different individuals. (doctrinal concerns aside) therefore to establish geographically the definition of the dhama in an absolute way meant to apply to all jivas universally, is bound to be incomplete (not incorrect, just incomplete). To assign a geographic location percievable to conditioned jivas as the sole point in the matter brings up the tricky question Nabadvip states about answering nature's call in the dhama. Are we defacating on chintamani? I don't think so... but why not?

I think how to deal with it is primarly reletive to the realization, or lack thereof, of the individual, and secondarily the veiw of the particular tradition one adheres to. (As it seems whatever our traditon is, we are always left at the end of the day with ourselves; our understandings and misunderstandings, at least that is my experience )


Just a general question I have on this point to the assembly: (Just to keep in the Gaudiya ballpark ) in the Gaudiya tradition is it not possible for the dhama to manifest to the individual outside of its pre-determined geographic location? If Shri Krishna manifests to someone by His own freewill somewhere away from the three recognized locations, is that not also an appearance, albeit temporary, of the 'dhama' as "Krishna never sets foot outside Vrindavan" therefore bringing the dhama, or does He not do that? If so how is that understood?

All this not meant as a challenge. My 5 virtually uninterrupted years in Vraja was the single most transformative experince of my entire life by far. Its power and authenticity are without question to me personally. Although I also feel there is something fundamentally wrong with limiting the concept of dhama only to certain geographic locations, as it has been shown that there are many ancient places of pilgramage in India where God has made His presence known in different ways, and even visited Himself on many different occasions.

That a (terrestrial) dhama is the decent of the Lord's abode is a point that is accepted by most 'Hindus' of all persuasions I believe, and therefore not really the issue, but rather the issue is the extent and implications of that belief, so it seems.

I was looking at a video clip of an interview with Madonna earlier and a segment on the Kabbalah and I thought of this thread. Of course the Kabbalists see Jerusalem as being the most holy of the holiest spots on the planet and they have holy sites commemorating their enlightened Kabalistic Rabbis that pilgrims visit on their own parikrama of sorts (much like the Gaudiya Vaishnava samadhis in Braja that we see)

Interesting....

(The divine is manifest in an unlimited manner it seems )

namaskar,

jijajii

The question of the manifestation of the dham in other places might be linked to the idea of pushpa samadhis.

These are where flower garlands, or other items physically associated with a saintly person are made into shrines in different locations than the actual "physical" location of the former bodily form of the person.

Is there some kind of "alternative physical presence" in both concepts?

Hmmm...

That's what I'm talkin bout now!

There is scriptural evidence to support pilgrimage to Tripati and worship of Venkatesvar as being efficacious in the Kali-Yuga, just like Badri-nath is mentioned in a similiar way in Srimad Bhagavatam.

aacha,

jijaji

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