Animal Products in GV Practice -

Why do we use a chamara which is made of yak's tail hair for fanning the Deity and a conch shell bone in religious rituals?

Do yak’s (related to the sacred cow) have to be killed? Do they suffer pain if their tail hair is cut? Is manufacturing such items for puja going against the principles of non-violence, peace and animal rights?

In Bhagavad Gita 6.11-12, deer skin ( is recommended for yoga practice. Does this sanction killing animals? (I know the answer is No, but rascals may interpret this otherwise)

Regarding peacock feathers, I presume that these are shed naturally.

Hmm?

Yak hair can be harvested without causing any pain to the animal. Does it hurt to have your hair cut? In fact, large animals (horse, cow, etc.) need to be/should be groomed. Otherwise the hair can kink up & get infested with mites, etc. (all depending on breed, of course) While the origin may be 'animal', it can be taken without causing any harm to the animal.

In the same way, conch shell can be taken/harvested once the animal has passed away. Just like you can collect clam shells on the beach.

Now, I'm not assuming that all conch shells are taken in this way, nor that all yak hair comes from 'groomed' animals (it could very easily come from slaughtered yaks), just that it can be done.

Found this on a buddhist site, interesting..

Unfortunately it seems if these Yak Tails are made in Tibet where most seem to have there origins, the animals are slaughtered and their hair, hides, meat, and even blood are harvested.

The yak is the Tibetan's staple diet in the form of milk, butter, and meat.

see:
The Yak, second edition...

http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?...7E/ad347e0l.htm

We can also add leather and silk to the list of animal products. Ahimsa silk isn't easy to produce; the general method is to boil the cocoons with the silk worm still inside.

It's funny as Ahimsa is originally a Buddhist doctrine, and so many abuse this animal (at least the Tibetan's.

From Jammu & Kashmir Development Report;

http://planningcommission.nic.in/plans/sta.../sdr_jkch3a.pdf


Yak meat also has a demand among the local people. Yak hide is used for making
leather, hair, ropes, grain bags etc. while its fine undercoat is used for making tents
called ‘Rebo’, shoes and sweaters, and tail hairs are used for making ceremonial fly
whisks (chauri).

Well, how about milk ? You may shrug it off, but also in contemporarian India milk is harvested from cows whose surplus male babies, and some cows as well, may end up in slaughterhouses when unproductive. It is perhaps not as systematic as here in the West, where no drop of milk is possible without the slaughter of all the cows and bulls involved (but we still offer such milk-products...). Yet, it happens in India too.

Also some of the methods how Indians obtain milk from the cow are not so gentle. In calcutta for instance some will use a type of plunger to insert into the cows vagina and forcefully push as much milk out of her as possible, getting the very last drop.

Kerala is known as the place where all the cows of modern India are slaughtered. I once heard that it has the world's largest slaughterhouses (larger than Chicago? perhaps not...)

"In truth, however, Kerala's beef is not its own. Cattle from local homestead farms account for only a very small percentage of the total beef produced in the State. According to the State Animal Husbandry Department, of the 4.83 lakh head of `white' cattle slaughtered in the authorised centres, 4.16 lakh are cattle imported from neighbouring States. Such legal trade is a mere one-third of the total beef business in Kerala and there are no reliable statistics on the unauthorised trade. "

"Those who argue for a ban on cow slaughter (in Kerala) do not understand the economics of cattle-rearing in Kerala," said Dr. N. N. Sasi, Director, Animal Husbandry Department. "Given the high input costs and the non-availability of cheap fodder, only female cattle can be raised to adulthood, for profits through the dairy sector. It is uneconomical to raise male calves or to continue to support bullocks and cows past their utility value as draught or milch animals. The farmers cannot afford to let them share the scarce, and increasingly costly, subsistence inputs. That is why they are sent to the meat traders."

The above is true all over India, not just down South in Kerala.

Full article: http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2018/stori...12004703100.htm

So the question arises, how can one be sure if the chamara one is using in Puja has not been obtained from an animal who has been brought to slaughter?

Do any of the merchants in Loi Bazaar give any reassurance in this regard when you purchase, anyone ever ask them?

jijaji

The answer will undoubtedly always be: Yes, yes, no problem!

aacha!

The Union stockyard in Chicago was closed in 1971, so it is no longer a center of slaughterhouses. They are elsewhere in places like Denver.

Also, dairy herds in America are separate from beef cattle herds. They are probably more likely to end up in glue factories than in supermarkets. Beef cattle ranches are big in states like Texas, whereas dairy farms are big in states like Wisconsin and Florida.

Despite cows and bulls being revered for religious reasons in India, the hard cold facts are that cattle have been maintained for solely economic reasons, due to their milk and as a bovine labor force. The animals are worth far more alive than the price their flesh would fetch in the marketplace.

What is an even worse problem than the cruelty of animal slaughter in America today is the deplorable conditions that domestic farm animals are forced to endure. A swift death is preferable to agonizing torture while alive. At least the domestic dogs, cats and horses get humane treatment, for the most part.

How does insertion of a plunger in a cow's vagina force more milk out of her udders? Is that some process that involves getting her aroused? It seems rather spurious to me, but then I don't really understand how it works.

Jai Radhe!
In addition, khol and tabla and dholak etc have straps for tuning made of hide.

aroused..?
Don't expect me to explain exactly, however I can speculate that it is a way of indirectly exerting force on the udder, which is close in proximity to the uterus where the plunger is inserted, they put it in rather deep and push on the internal organs.

Here is what I assume (I could be wrong) to be reference to that or a similiar practice from Ghandi.

http://www.purifymind.com/ExperimentsTruth.htm

Here's a direct reference;

P.E.T.A. on the Treatment of Cows

The cow is revered in India, her special status enshrined by the law. But today, as you walk the streets of India, in every alley you will find a cow rummaging through the garbage for food. Every few days we read about a cow dead with tons of plastic bags in his or her stomach.

The 'holy cow' meets with a worse fate in the country where no devout Hindu can go through life without paying obeisance to Gau mata and where the Prime Minister does not file his election nomination without the mandatory gau poojan (cow worship).

As you are aware, most dairy products come from cows who are treated horrendously. Did you know that when Gandhi heard of cruel practices to increase the milk yield of cows in Calcutta he gave up milk.

For their milk, the cow is forced into yearly pregnancies. After giving birth she is milked for 10 months but will be artificially inseminated during her third month so that she is milked even when she is pregnant. The demanded of production of milk is more than her body can give. So she starts breaking down body tissue to produce milk. The result is an illness called ketosis

Most of the day the cow is tied up in a narrow stall usually wallowing in her own excrement. She gets mastitis because the hands that milk her are rough and usually unclean. She gets rumen acidosis from bad food and lameness. To keep the animals at high levels of productivity, dairy farmers keep them constantly pregnant through the use of artificial insemination. Farmers also use an array of drugs, including bovine growth hormone (BGH); prostaglandin, which is used to bring a cow into heat whenever the farmer wants to have her inseminated; antibiotics; and even tranquilizers, in order to influence the productivity and behavior of the cows.

In the villages they practice phukan, a method of milking a cow. A stick is poked into the cow's uterus and wiggled, causing her intense pain. Villagers believe this leads to more milk. In the cities they are given two injections of oxytocin every day to make the milk come faster. This gives her labor pains twice a day. Her uterus develops sores and makes her sterile prematurely. Oxytocin is banned for use on animals but it is sold in every cigarette shop around a dairy. Every illiterate milkman knows the word. In human beings, oxytocin causes hormonal imbalances, weak eyesight, miscarriages, and cancer. Recently, Gujarat started raiding dairies for oxytocin. In one day, they found 350,000 ampoules in just Ahmedabad!

http://www.mothercow.org/oxen/peta-letters.html

Hare Krsna.

What about organic milk? What is the horror story underlining this?

The conch rose out of the milk ocean along with Amrita etc. It is the very form of Laksmi Herself. All bone/shell is impure but conch.

Hmm.. that's actually very interesting. Bone I understand, but shell... ? Do you have a reference for this?

Is a reference needed? Is Shell not outer bone?

jijaji

Well, shell is much more common in jewelry and the like.. It also lacks the blood production capabilities of bone... no marrow. It also serves a more protective, and less mechanical function than bone. Is coral shell? So, I'm not so sure I would call it 'outer bone'. And I'm more curious about the reference calling 'all shell other than conch' impure.

Well ok then, hope you get your reference..

I was not given a scriptural referenceby my ex puja guru. I would bet Mahanirvana Tantra or Kula Arnava Tantra would have something on the glories of Shank. The way my he explained it to me was roughly like this.
>>All shell is the excrement of a worm (molluska). Excrement is by definition ritually impure. However- since Shank came from the ocean of milk by virtue of Visnu and Sivji's play, and is always held by Sri Visnu, it is sacred.<<

-also- Notice that Narasinga murtis will have shank but no anthro-Laksmi form- the shank is Laksmi. It is listed in the account of the churning as a treasure rising out of the ocean.
Other than that, no idea!
Hope that was helpful!
Jai radhe!

See, a good reply, and quite entertaining! Actually, shell as excrement is probably a lot closer to the truth...

Mina..I showed you here how this is not some spurious thing as you suggested (I frankly dont know why you would even think that it was) maybe because it spoils the image so many like to cling onto regarding India and cows and how they are treated there.

At any rate, not trying to bust your balls over this, but I was hoping for some feedback after I showed you this was a factual ugly practice done to poor Cows in Mother India to force more milk out of them. And this comes from those who are supposed to 'protect them' and show some reverence for them...

namaskar,

jijaji

Indeed!

Google returns seems to return PETA as the only source for this. I doubt that either are widespread practices. Even in the cities, most milk is obtained from small enterprises and I find it unlikely that they are in a position to spend a lot of money on pharmaceuticals. Chalk and water, sure.

Well actually PETA is not the only source, having a hard time finding more on google..but will try and find more later. Honestly PETA is not where I myself 1st heard of it...

Even so why is it discounted..?

Is not one village too much..? and what about oxytocin use..? they fact remains that the cows are mistreated.

jijaji

Is Nothing Sacred? - Cruelty towards
India’s Holy Animals

Headline News:

International animal-rights activists expose the barbaric transport
and slaughter of the country's most revered animals and accuse
India of showing uncharacteristic cruelty toward its holy animals.

Article:
Mahatma Gandhi believed that a nation could be judged by the
way it treats its animals. If that yardstick were applied to his own
country today, India would be in the doghouse. Hindus venerate
many of God's creatures, and the cow is considered especially
sacred. But the international animal-rights group People for the
Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has exposed horrendous
cruelty to India's cows as they are transported illegally, to slaughter
houses. Many arrive dead or badly injured after long and torturous
journeys in trains and trucks or on foot. "It is Dante's Inferno for
cows and bullocks," says PETA president Ingrid Newkirk.
India's livestock population, estimated at more than 500 million, is
the world's largest. More than half is cows, buffaloes, and bulls.
Once they become unproductive, many of the animals are sold by
their owners, mostly subsistence farmers, and marched off to
slaughter houses.

Cow slaughter is permitted in just two provinces, the communistruled
states of West Bengal in the east and Kerala in the south.
Although it is illegal to transport the animals for slaughter across
state borders, traders bribe officials to look the other way as they
pack the cows into rail cars or trucks headed for West Bengal or
Kerala. The animals frequently gore one another or break their
pelvises when forced to jump from the trucks. Some suffocate
inside boxcars. Thousands of others are surreptitiously herded
overland--often without food or water. If they collapse from
exhaustion, herders break their tails or throw chili pepper and
tobacco in their eyes to make them walk again.

The campaign against the practice is attracting support from a
number of animal-activist celebrities. Paul McCartney, Brigitte
Bardot, Steven Seagal and Nina Hagen took part in an
international day of protest two weeks ago (second week of May,
2000), in their home countries. "My heart breaks for the misery
endured by the entire mother cows and their calves ... who
have become throw-away in today's India," McCartney declared.

The $1.6 billion Indian leather export industry is feeling the pinch.
Companies such as Gap and its subsidiaries Banana Republic and
Old Navy have banned the use of Indian leather in their garments.
The British Shoe Company Clark's announced last week that it
would review the purchase of products made from Indian leather.
PETA's list also includes Florsheim, Nordstrom, Casual Corner
and other retail chains. "It's a wake-up call to India's leather
industry," says PETA's Indian campaign coordinator Jason Baker.
"If it doesn't do something soon to stop the cruelty against cows,
there will be no leather industry left."

India's leather barons are worried that the protests will cripple
exports to the West. Nearly 4,000 tanneries and leather-goods
factories depend on the export trade. The industry employs around
1.7 million people; nearly a third of who are women. "The
campaign is going to affect us, no doubt about it," says
Mohammed Hashim, chairman of the Council for Leather Exports.
He feels his tribe is unfairly targeted. "We are only scavengers," he
says. "We take skins sold by slaughter houses." Moreover, he
adds, 90% of the hides’ use are from buffalo, goats or sheep. His
organization has appealed to exporters to use only leather from
animals that have been killed humanly.

The government, though, shows no sign of moving against the
illegal transport and slaughter. Before PETA's campaign, Indian
animal-rights groups had been trying for years to stop the brutal
cattle trail. It's a multimillion-dollar business, and the kickbacks to
politicians and officials are thought to be huge (The cows’ “death
trains” are operated by the state-owned railway). Banning cow
slaughter in West Bengal and Kerala probably wouldn't help, as it
would surely lead to an increase in the number of illegal, back
street slaughter houses. New Delhi may simply find it easier to
respond to other demands by animal lovers, like creating a national
authority for protecting cows or introducing tougher penalties for
cruelty to animals (under existing law, the fine is only about $1).

http://www.jaina.org/education/book_of_compassion.pdf

Not discounting it, just contextualizing it. There is no getting away from the fact that animal abuse is widespread regardless of details. Commercial milk production pretty much cannot take place without some form of mistreatment.

Varakh (Silver Foil)

Do you know whether the varakh (silver foil) used in many Jain
temples on the idols and in some religious ceremonies is
vegetarian?

Do you know how the varakh on your sweets (mithai) is
manufactured? As a child I remember always asking for those
sweets that had silver foil on them. Even today children as well as
adults go for varakh on the sweets. Its popular appeal has a
stronger hold on people's mind, increasing the demand and there
by it's supply. If people know the source and method of making it, I
am sure they will never eat the silver-coated sweets again.
Let us find out the procedure from the article written by Beauty
Without Cruelty (BWC), India branch. We are thankful to them for
this valuable information.

If you look beyond the glitter of varakh, into the sheds where it is
produced, and at the lives that are sacrificed to make this possible,
you would think twice before buying that box of sweets topped with
the precious silver foil!

Silver foil, or varakh, as it is generally known in India, adds glitter
to Indian sweets (mithai), supari (betel nut), paan (betel-leaf), and
fruits. Also it is used in Ayurvedic medicines and on deities in
many Jain temples. The silver-topped sweet is even served as
prasad in temples and on auspicious and religious occasions.
Varakh is also used in flavored syrups as in kesar (saffron) syrup.
Several years ago, as suggested by BWC, Indian Airlines
instructed their caterers to stop the use of varakh on sweets
(mithai) served on board their flights. Today, many ask for sweets
without varakh, having realized the cruelty involved in its
preparation.

According to a feature article in Business India, an astounding 275
tons of silver are eaten annually into foil for sweets and
chyavanprash! That is a whopping 2,75,000 kilograms! (At the
45 present market rate that would cost a phenomenal Rs. 165 Crore
or $ 40 million U.S. Dollars).

Just how is varakh made and what is it that makes its preparation
and consumption so sinful?

Varakh is not derived from an animal source. However, a crucial
material of animal origin, ox-gut, is used in its manufacture. This
ox-gut is obtained from the slaughterhouse.

In the by lanes of the villages of Ahmedabad (Gujarat state, India)
and other cities, amidst filthy surroundings, placed between layers
of ox-gut, small thin strips of silver are hammered to produce the
glittering foil.

The intestine (ox-gut), smeared with blood and mucus, is pulled
out from the slaughtered animal by the butcher at the
slaughterhouse, and sold for the specific purpose. Note that it is
not a by-product of slaughter, but like everything else meat, hide,
and bones are sold by weight. This is then taken away to be
cleaned and used in the manufacture of varakh.

The gut of an average cow, measuring 540 inches in length and 3
inches in diameter, is cut open into a piece measuring 540" x 10".
From this, strips of 9" x 10" are cut to give approximately 60 pieces
of ox -gut, which are then piled one onto another and bound to form
a book of 171 leaves.

Next, small thin strips of silver are placed between the sheets and
the book slipped into a leather pouch (note that the use of leatheran
animal product again). Artisans then hammer these bundles
continuously for a day to produce extremely thin foils of silver of 3"
x 5".

The leather and ox-gut, being supple, can withstand the intense
manual hammering for up to 8 hours a day till such time as the
silver is beaten to the desired thickness. When ready, the foil is
carefully lifted from between the leaves of ox -gut and placed
between sheets of paper to be sold to the sweet makers
(mithaiwallas). A booklet of 160 foils weighs approximately 10
grams and costs about Rs. 200 ($5.00).

To make a single booklet of 171 sheets, the guts of 3 cows are
used. And the yield per book is generally 160 foils of silver, the
rest of which may be damaged or unfit for use. Thus one book,
used on an average of 300 days of the year yields approximately
48,000 foils of silver which means that each ox-gut yields an
estimated 16,000 foils.

The leather used for the pouch to hold the book (made from oxgut),
is cowhide or calf leather, and uses about 232 sq. inches of
material. Assuming the size of an average cowhide to be 18 sq. ft
or 2,600 sq. Inches, the yield per hide will be approximately 10
leather pouches.

Usually 4 foils are used per kilograms (2.2 lbs.) of sweets and the
ox-gut of one cow is used to produce foil for approximately 4,000
kilograms (9,000 lbs.) of sweets. It is estimated (by Surveys) that
the average consumption of sweets by a middle class family of four
in India is about 100 kilograms per year.

Thus, an average middle class Indian family of four consuming
approximately 100 kg of sweets per year for forty years consumes
silver foil produced with the gut of 3 cows and one-tenth of a
cowhide!

India is not the only country where foil is made by such methods.
In Germany, small-specialized enterprises produce gold leaf, which
is beaten down to 1/10,000-millimeter thickness, for decorative and
technical purposes by similar methods. The Jews use the gold foil
for as much the same purposes, namely for food preparations, as it
is in India.

In India the 275 tons of silver that are beaten annually into varakh
utilize intestines of 516,000 cows and calf leather of 17,200
animals each year.

Therefore, we hope that someone; somewhere will develop an
alternative process for the making of varakh without using ox -gut.

http://www.jaina.org/education/book_of_compassion.pdf

I think Commercial milk production without some form of mistreatment is ugly and I agree it's probably difficult to stop it is so widespeard, but someone needs to stand up against it.

namaskar,

jijaji

I don't get it...

After I post info on this cruel practice towards cows Mina say's it sounds spurious and then braja comes along and says he doubts its being widespread..and that it seems only PETA reports (like they are a bad source?)

why is this poo pooed?

COWS ARE MISTREATED IN INDIA...AND THERE IS PLENTY OF PROOF TO SHOW THAT...

It's like when I first started telling devotees about abortion of female babies in India using ultrasound people scoffed at me...getting irritated at me for saying such things..

bursting their bubble about their idealistic misconceptions about India and some of the cruelty that goes on there..

Well, I need a little time to first read through the posts before I even know about them and can give some response, if one is in fact needed. I guess the only feedback I have is that this reinforces my earlier post about the so-called sacredness of cows being much more based on economics and greed than religiosity.

I'm fully in agreement with you on this, Jij. I think the dark side of India needs to be exposed and dealt with and eradicated. If their record on human and animal rights is marred, then they should be held accountable by the righteous people within their own borders and condemned by the world community. I think they have made some progress, such as in the area of treatment of women, but at the same time they have a long ways to go.

Sorry to burst your bubble about the idealistic misconception you have regarding the effects of your posts and my own beliefs, but I've already explained why I said what I said. If you need melodrama, go right ahead.

Seems we operate in different hemispheres, my friend.

sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to, I just didn't think my mentioning this practice should be poo pooed and got the feeling it was. I do get a little passionate about cruelty towards animals..

please forgive me,

namaskar,

jijaji

Alrighty then Mahasayaji

Agent Smith in The Matrix aptly characterizes the human species in his statement that we are like a disease gobbling up resources and destroying our own habitat. Despite our being the most intelligent species, we tend to act in the most stupid manner. Besides the fact that people let their baser motives take precedence over virtues like compassion, they cut their own throats by their narrow minded acts of self interest. On the one hand people have been breeding like rats for decades and bringing the population to the point of critical mass, while on the other hand they have been greedily pulling minerals and oil out of the ground and decimating old growth forests in the pursuit of obscene wealth.

What is sad about this is that many religious conservative factions are obtusely callous with respect to these alarming trends. Scientists, on the other hand, are heradling the wake up call for us to get our act together and wise up. The bible thumpers, for example, figure that since Armageddon and the Apocalypse are imminent anyways, why worry about the state of the planet for future generations? As if they are not cretans enough with their Creationist dribble, they are in a peculiar form of maya that has them believing that they are going to be resurrected in their physical forms and that all of the rotting corpses lying in graves will be as well.

There are a lot of reforms in order around the world, including the eradication of cruelty to animals and slavery and failure to curb population growth. What I see as tragic is the election of leaders in America that have a hidden agenda that is not in the best interest of the environment and the quality of life for all living entities on the planet. The Democrats are not much better than the Republicans, so we need some new political party to take over the reins and get things back on track, outside of out and out revolution and overthrow of the government (the logistics of that make it somewhat of an over reach).

I'm surprised that no one commented on how Varakh (Silver Foil) is made

namaskar,

jijaji

Is silver foil used in Gaudiya practices? I know it is used in worship of Hanuman. On Tuesdays his murti is being smeared with an orange paste and then coated with silver-foil. Is something similar done in GV?

I don't know if it is used directly in Gaudiya Practices, but I have known plenty of Gaudiyas who have eaten it on a regular basis (including myself) on sweets and of course you see it being offered to deities in temples on the sweets etc.

jijaji

placed twice due to temporary shut down of the site.

As far as the atrocities happening in India are concerned, it is healthy to recognize what is. India is a different planet altogether. None of our normal values and world-views are going to apply there. Most spiritualists live in phantasies about India, even many Indians themselves, especially spiritualists, even more so shastra-walas. It is obvious that when you orient your world-perception through an idealized medium (shastra), you are going to miss out on the concrete world side. I think that is part of the problem that we are dealing with here on this site, and in general in our growth of becoming integrated personalities, responsible spiritualists oriented towards India.

Everyone has their way of balancing their world-experience, otherwise noone could survive the hardships of life. Insanity is the result if attempts at a balance fail. Even the weirdest, most anti-human practices find some rationalization to balance them, to make them digestible, to be assimilated in a "healthy" life, even if that is bordering to insanity. The hardships in India are extreme as everything there is extremely pronounced (tastes, smells, sights, sounds, types of behaviour, of love and hate, the contrasts of social relations, suppression versus glorification of people, believes). It seems the duality of the world is much stronger present in India than elsewhere. Extreme stupidity and most exalted wisdom can coincide in one and the same person in India.

I think what concerns us here is the question of what the implications are for us (as Westerners) that Gaudiya Vaishnavas cultivate a life-style of escapism, the tendency of wishing to leave the world of suffering and inflicting suffering into the bliss of bhajan. A babaji in Vraja or Nadia may be an island, disconnected from the world, and be engaged in the creation of blessing for the world in unseen or seen ways. But for us as Westerners who are interconnected with everything that happens on this planet and outside, the escape from the awareness of the complexities of the attrocities happening in this world seems to come at the price of irresponsibility. We who travel by planes whose side-effects endanger the ozone-layer (among many other impacts caused by such traffic), who live from food made by inflicting extreme suffering on other beings, how can we avoid to at least recognize the reality as it is, recognize the price someone else pays for our survival (and spiritual quest), and do something vital to alleviate the pain inflicted in which we are involved structurally, even if involuntarily?

I think the development of new ways of integrated, responsible styles of bhajan practices that include the realities of the world is a way to go. The world itself is forcing that on us, if you consider the state of the Holy Dhams and their rapid destructions happening and yet to come, and the stress on social relations thru migration there. Nothing easy, since we remain foreigners and guests there always. The first step is to decribe the realities and form an awareness, as is happening here. Everyone finds their own response to what they perceive as reality, called to action as everyone is.

This is most certainly true nabadip.

I have found if you try and point out the anti-life attitudes in general that prevail there, towards animals, other humans (women especially) you get people mad at you who live in those phantasies about India.

I also found your entire post above to be very insightful.

namaskar,

jijaji

Dandavats to all,

Have a look at the article at

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/ODiscAug31_03.html

In this article Madhava Gosh Das has made an interesting observation regarding the aarti ritual. The aarti ritual is explained as the recognition and subsequent offering to the Supreme Lord of all the glories of His wonderful creation. The various articles used during aarti represent the variegatedness of His creation. For example, sea life is represented by the conch shell, bird life by peacock feathers, insects by silk cloth, reptiles by the five ghee wick holder (five headed fire breathing cobra), beastly life by the yak tail and human life by the pujari. This effectively means that we are not only conducting the ritual for ourselves but also on behalf of all the other living entities.

All the elements (panca maha bhutas) are offered to the Supreme Lord. This follows the Vedic principle of "yajno vai visnuh". Sacrifices are performed for the satisfaction of Lord Visnu. Our survival in this world depends upon all the necessities of life provided to us by the Supreme Lord. The Bhagavad Gita (third chapter) says that if these are not offered back to the Lord then we are simply thieves and commit sin.




The conch shell was blown prior to the commencement of the Mahabharata war in order to purify the atmosphere. For the same reason it is blown at the start of aarti to purify the environment. Accepting that the conch shell is pure, the practice of keeping water in the shell before using it to perform abhisekha of the Deities is also justified. This is because the liquid acquires the properties of the container in which it is held. So the water in the conch shell is free from any impurities. In the Brahma Vaivarta Purana it is stated that the items used in puja should be purified using water from the conch shell.

When purchasing a yak tail fly whisk we should ensure that it is not made from a slaughtered yak. Similarly toiletries should not be tested on animals and fruit and vegetables should be organically produced. I was shocked to read about the production of varakh – thanks jijaji. I too have consumed many silver-coated sweets in the past! I suppose an alternative to ox-gut would be certain types of plastic sheets that can withstand the hard beating. But then again I have heard that many plastics are made from harmful chemicals. Actually, when you think about it, most of the things we use in our day-to-day lives are not really pure because they have been handled by non-devotees in the manufacturing process which is a commercial and often greedy enterprise. However, we should always endeavour to use products from a bona-fide source. Also, if we the devotees are genuinely pure devotees, anything that comes into contact with us will eventually become purified by the act of offering it to Lord Visnu.

Your welcome...how it is made is indeed shocking as hell and to think that it is on those wonderful sweets that we take for granted, even being offered to the Lord and eaten by devotees is a real eye-opener.

I for one will never eat it again until they come up with an cruelty-free version.

namaskar,

jijaji

But will you continue to eat the milk-sweets made of milk forced out of a cow by indecent, atrocious means? What is the difference whether you eat silver foil that was made with the use of ox-gut, or whether you eat a milk-sweet made of milk which is the rightful food to a calf that's going to be killed so that you can enjoy the milk, or energy of the cow itself forced out of her?

Is the offering of such milk-products a sufficient legitimation for the continuation of the consumption of milk by a responsible Gaudiya Vaishnava? May we continue to take milk thinking, well, we are offering it to the Lord, and the cows, calves and bulls involved get a spiritual benefit by that? Questions...

Is it even possible to offer such milk-products to an installed Thakur?

I don't drink milk or eat sugar, however I use organic half & half I admit and should just switch over to Soy Creamer...

Thank you for pointing this out nabadip...

jijaji

Of course, the intention of addressing you here, jijaji, is a rhethoric device to bring up the issue for all of us... I don't mean you personally...

I know, thanks for that clarification however

namaskar,

jijaji

Careful - Many Soy products are genetically modified. Also if you have to choose between products that contain soy lecithin and lecithin, go for soy lecithin because lecithin may come from eggs!

(& I'm sure you know about rennet made out of calf's stomach lining being used to make cheese and gelatin made from boiled bones used to set products, often desserts!)

Yep I'm hip on the rennet and I only eat organic soy....any feedback on that?

Maybe I should just go on a breatharian diet

Nice one - keep it up, but to be really safe avoid soy products altogether. I never eat soy or any soy derivatives. This includes tofu. Tofu shrinks the brain, see http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm

Also, studies have shown soy sauce being linked to increasing incidences of cancer.

CANCER - Joe Jackson

Everything
Everything gives you cancer
Everything
Everything gives you cancer
There’s no cure, there’s no answer
Everything gives you cancer

Don’t touch that dial
Don’t try to smile
Just take this pill
It’s in your file

Don’t work hard
Don’t play hard
Don’t plan for the graveyard
Remember -

Everything
Everything gives you cancer
Everything
Everything gives you cancer
There’s no cure, there’s no answer
Everything gives you cancer

Don’t work by night
Don’t play by day
You’ll feel all right
But you will pay

No caffeine
No protein
No booze or
Nicotine
Remember -

Everything
Everything gives you cancer
Everything
Everything gives you cancer
There’s no cure, there’s no answer
Everything gives you cancer

Just a quick mention that many Chamaras do also include the bone not just the Yak's tail hair.

Regarding the use of animal by products in traditional forms of Vaisnavism it seems that there are items that are sanctioned by sastra to be used (milk, honey, silk, musk etc). Of course one should not be in any illusion at the traditional and/or modern methods of obtaining these things. And I do agree that it is best to find the least offensive method of obtaining them. Or as an alternative modern Vaisnavas may want to give up these things altogether.

As for the use of conches please note that some/most Sri Vaisnavas do not use them for the reason that they are bones(?) of animals. These folks will admit that Visnu's conch Pancajanya is holy but ask whether this means that ALL conches are holy? They do however use silver utensils made in the auspicious shape of the conch for bathing the deity. Whether or not one uses conches in ones puja it is clear from the Bhagavad Gita first chapter that not only Krsna had a conch but all the other fighters on the battlefield had one also. Of course this was for the practical purpose of making sounds in battle but should this be any different from it's use in puja to make sounds? As for using it for bathing this may be another question.

As for coral and pearls these are traditionally used as ornaments, and therefore are offered to the deity.

Musk is used for deity tilaka and offering as a scent. It clearly comes from the glands of the musk deer. (Can anyone say whether this can be gotten without harming the animal?) Also there is a thing call pulagu in South India which also comes from the gland of the civet cat (the gland is located between the anus and genitals of that animal). It is also used in puja.

The glands fall off the deer by themselves after the mating season and are collected from the forest floor.

I was offered the musk glands several times in the Himalaya and was horrified, until I finally figured out what they were. They look a little scary fresh off the deer.

The Himalayan musk deer is an endangered species and trade is forbidden. With musk costing much more than gold, it seems that bans aren't very effective however.



BBC article here.

This includes photos of the "pods." I haven't seen any mention of them dropping off however. These articles seem to suggest that the glands are internal:

For the truly curious and/or terminally distracted, another account:



Interestingly, this author traces the name of the creature also - "From the Sanskrit 'mushkas' (originally meaning testicle)." This seems to be accurate according to this excerpt from Mahabharata, referring to the residents of "White Island":

I read that the musk from skunks is also used in perfume manufacturing. They are hardly endangered. In fact in our area they breed like rats and cause quite a stink on many an evening.

That is indeed disturbing. I guess I was told a fib.

And to think:
On the deity..? something is wrong wrong wrong here and they offer sweets made with Varakh (Silver Foil) that's made in such an ugly manner..?

but condemn a freakin carrot or a gagootz?

Coarse but relevant.

Can anyone think of specific sastric references to non-violence, vegetarianism and the like?

There are plenty in the Buddhist and Jain scriptures of course, would you care for some of those?

namaskar,

jijaji

Nope. The topic is "Animal products in GV Practice" so unless GV refers to Global Vegetarians or something like that, I'd like to see quotes from Gaudiya scripture.

Your right sorry if I was getting off track a bit, if anyone wants a look, the 'Jain connections to Vaishnavism' thread has some interesting things regarding Neminath and his attitude to animal cruelty.

I am still waiting to see if anyone can post some specific references to non-violence, vegetarianism and the like from Gaudiya scripture. Surely some of the qualified scholars here can contribute something.

I know there are references to non-violence in Srimad Bhagavatam, however that is not an exclusively Gaudiya scripture.

namaskar,

jijaji

Srimad Bhagavatam is a major Gaudiya shastra. Surely you mean the Jada Bharata story, for instance, as an example for ahimsa. As far as I remember Kamsa has also some interesting things to say reflecting his path of action regarding the killing of babies, and in the Uddhava Gita there might be some more direct instructions from Sri Krsna.

In Caitanya Caritamrta, Mahaprabhu tells the story of Narada Muni and the hunter, who after becoming attached to the lord's names, like Jada Bhatara was also unable to step on ants.

Dandavats,
Lancer

Ahimsa is mentioned in the Gita on several occasions:

• In 10.5 as one of the virtues the Lord has created,
• In 13.8 as one of the aspects of knowledge, beyond which all is ignorance,
• In 16.1 as one of the divine qualities,
• In 17.14 as one of the sattvic austerities of the body.

Are you interested in the commentaries on the above? Similar lists of virtues are found in the Bhagavata, ahimsa is mentioned:

• In 1.18.22 as the sva-dharma of those who have left the world behind,
• In 3.28.4 as an observance in devotional yoga,
• In 4.22.24 as one of the practices of the one who seeks to drink the nectar of Hari's qualities,
• In 7.11.8 as one of the qualities by which the Lord is satisfied,
• In 11.3.24 as one of the qualities of a disciple who serves the guru,
• In 11.8.9 as one of the characteristics of the renounced sage,
• In 11.17.21 among the qualities that should be adopted by members of all varNas and that bring joy and welfare for all,
• In 11.18.42 as one of the qualities of the renounced beggar,
• In 11.19.33 as one of the virtues that fulfill one's desires.

While the Bhagavata is not an exclusively Gaudiya text by any means, I believe it is more pertinent to consider what the Gaudiyas think of the text: zrImad-bhAgavataM pramANam amalam.

Kaviraja Goswami writes (CC 2.22.145), ahiMsA-yama-niyamAdi bule kRSNa-bhakta-saGga - "The rules and restrictions headed by ahiMsa accompany the devotee of Krishna." Sri Chaitanya cites an interesting verse in his discussions with Sanatana, said to be from the Skanda-purana, appearing in the context of Mrigari's story:



There's a ton more along the same lines in the writings of the Goswamis, generally amidst lists of desirable or necessary qualities.

Thats what I'm talkin bout now..!

The quotes Madhava reference are great, thank you...

I do have to question from where does the term Ahimsa originate, Is it a Vedic term, Buddhist or Jain?

Did the Buddhists and Jains acquire it from the Vedic texts..?

Not challenging, just sincerely curious....

namaskar,

jijaji

I can't seem to find the word but once in the 120 Upanishads I have on record. In Shiva Upanishad.

Sir Monier-Williams suggests that there is a mention in ChUp, but for the life of me I can't locate it. Nor in the Vana-parva, where ahiMsa is said to be described as Dharma's wife.

Ahimsa
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Ahimsa is a religious concept which advocates non-violence and a respect for all life. Ahimsa is Sanskrit for avoidance of himsa, or injury. It is interpreted most often as meaning peace and reverence toward all sentient beings. Ahimsa is the core of Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism. Its first mention in Indian philosophy is found in the Hindu scriptures called the Upanishads, the oldest dating about 800 BCE.

From another thread I know, but thought it could continue here....

Isn't killing fish against the doctrine of ahimsa..? Certainly Jains see it as so... as did the Buddha himself.

Do any of these fish-eating Gaudiyas offer fish to the deities of Krishna...?

any reference for that..?

namaskar,

jijaji

Also do the fish-eating Gaudiyas shun garlic and carrots...

Just as a background information: In West Bengal fish is less expensive than vegetables, in what people see as nourishing. Often even the relatively poor who cannot afford vegetables buy fish.

"Fruit of the sea" and pukhor/river, I guess.

I've seen mention of fish being lower down the creationary scale and therefore possessing lower consciousness than plants. Maybe that came from a Bhaktivedanta purport...can't think right now as I'm so hungry. Must go murder some broccoli.

I tried to track this down the other day. I had a memory of it being mentioned somewhere in Caitanya Caritamrita, but failed to find it. Bhaktivedanta speaks of it in some of his comments, apparently it's derived from the jalajA nava-lakSANi verse from the Puranas outlining the 8.400.000 species. He presented the course of transmigration from aquatics to plants and trees, placing fishes and such lower on the scale.


The gradation of superiority between living entities is outlined in the third canto, in the teachings of Kapila (3.29.28-30):

AHIMSA AND VEDIC CULTURE

That the concept of ahimsa in the Jain religious and ethical teaching was foreign to Vedic culture is shown by the eminent indologist Prof. W. Norman Brown in his Tagore Memorial Lectures, 1964-65 published in the book Man in the Universe.

His observations deserve to be quoted in full;
"Though the Upanishads contain the first literary references to the idea of rebirth and to the notion that one.s action (karma) determines the conditions of one.s future existences, and though they arrive at the point of recognizing that rebirth may occure not only in animal form but also in animal bodies, they tell us nothing about the precept of ahimsa. Yet that precept is later associated with the belief that a soul in its wandering may inhabit both kinds of forms. Ancient Brahmanical literature is conspicuously silent about ahimsa. The early Vedic texts do not even record the noun ahimsa-.non injury., nor know the ethical meaning which the noun later designates. The first occurance of the word in Sanskrit literature is in the Upanishads, but there it occures only once (CU 3.17.4) and in a context that has nothing to do with transmigation. It is merely mentioned in a list of five virtues without any indication of its character. These virtues are austerity (tapas), almsgiving (dana), rectitude (arjava), ahimsa (noninjury) and truthfulness(satya vachana) It is evident that these are prized Virtues. but ahimsa stands here isolated and unexplained. Nor is an explanation of ahimsa deducible from other parts of Vedic literature. The ethical concept it embodies was entirely foreign to the thinking of the early Vedic Aryans, who recognized no kinship between human and animal creation, but rather ate meat and offered animals in the sacrifice to gods" (Pp.53-54)

Therefore Prof. Brown concludes;
"The double doctrine of ahimsa and vegetarianism has never had full and unchallenged acceptance and practice among Hindus, and should not be considered to have arisen in Brahmanical order. It seems more probable that it originated in a non-Brahmanical environment , was promoted in historic India by the Jains and the Buddhists, and was adopted by Brahmanic Hinduism after it began to win its way in North India where Brahmanic Hinduism was developed" (P.56)

peace now,

jijaji

Online edition of India's National Newspaper
Tuesday, August 14, 2001

Beef eating: strangulating history

While one must respect the sentiments of those who worship cow and regard her as their mother, to take offence to the objective study of history just because the facts don't suit their political calculations is yet another sign of a society where liberal space is being strangulated by the practitioners of communal politics.

PROF. D. N. JHA, a historian from Delhi University, had been experiencing the nightmares of `threats to life' from anonymous callers who were trying to prevail upon him not to go ahead with the publication of his well researched work, Holy Cow: Beef in Indian Dietary Traditions.

As per the reports it is a work of serious scholarship based on authentic sources in tune with methods of scientific research in history. The book demonstrates that contrary to the popular belief even today a large number of Indians, the indigenous people in particular and many other communities in general, consume beef unmindful of the dictates of the Hindutva forces.

It is too well known to recount that these Hindutva forces confer the status of mother to the cow. Currently 72 communities in Kerala - not all of them untouchables - prefer beef to the expensive mutton and the Hindutva forces are trying to prevail upon them to stop the same.

Not tenable

To begin with the historian breaks the myth that Muslim rulers introduced beef eating in India. Much before the advent of Islam in India beef had been associated with Indian dietary practices. Also it is not at all tenable to hold that dietary habits are a mark of community identity.

A survey of ancient Indian scriptures, especially the Vedas, shows that amongst the nomadic, pastoral Aryans who settled here, animal sacrifice was a dominant feature till the emergence of settled agriculture. Cattle were the major property during this phase and they offered the same to propitiate the gods. Wealth was equated with the ownership of the cattle.

Many gods such as Indra and Agni are described as having special preferences for different types of flesh - Indra had weakness for bull's meat and Agni for bull's and cow's. It is recorded that the Maruts and the Asvins were also offered cows. In the Vedas there is a mention of around 250 animals out of which at least 50 were supposed to be fit for sacrifice and consumption. In the Mahabharata there is a mention of a king named Rantideva who achieved great fame by distributing foodgrains and beef to Brahmins. Taittiriya Brahman categorically tells us: `Verily the cow is food' (atho annam via gauh) and Yajnavalkya's insistence on eating the tender (amsala) flesh of the cow is well known. Even later Brahminical texts provide the evidence for eating beef. Even Manusmriti did not prohibit the consumption of beef.

As a medicine

In therapeutic section of Charak Samhita (pages 86-87) the flesh of cow is prescribed as a medicine for various diseases. It is also prescribed for making soup. It is emphatically advised as a cure for irregular fever, consumption, and emaciation. The fat of the cow is recommended for debility and rheumatism.

With the rise of agricultural economy and the massive transformation occurring in society, changes were to be brought in in the practice of animal sacrifice also. At that time there were ritualistic practices like animal sacrifices, with which Brahmins were identified. Buddha attacked these practices. There were sacrifices, which involved 500 oxen, 500 male calves, 500 female calves and 500 sheep to be tied to the sacrificial pole for slaughter. Buddha pointed out that aswamedha, purusmedha, vajapeya sacrifices did not produce good results. According to a story in Digha Nikaya, when Buddha was touring Magadha, a Brahmin called Kutadanta was preparing for a sacrifice with 700 bulls, 700 goats and 700 rams. Buddha intervened and stopped him. His rejection of animal sacrifice and emphasis on non-injury to animals assumed a new significance in the context of new agriculture.

The threat from Buddhism

The emphasis on non-violence by Buddha was not blind or rigid. He did taste beef and it is well known that he died due to eating pork (there is much evidence showing he did not). Emperor Ashok after converting to Buddhism did not turn to vegetarianism. He only restricted the number of animals to be killed for the royal kitchen.

So where do matters change and how did the cow become a symbol of faith and reverence to the extent of assuming the status of `motherhood'? Over a period of time mainly after the emergence of Buddhism or rather as an accompaniment of the Brahminical attack on Buddhism, the practices started being looked on with different emphasis. The threat posed by Buddhism to the Brahminical value system was too severe. In response to low castes slipping away from the grip of Brahminism, the battle was taken up at all the levels. At philosophical level Sankara reasserted the supremacy of Brahminical values, at political level King Pushyamitra Shung ensured the physical attack on Buddhist monks, at the level of symbols King Shashank got the Bodhi tree (where Gautama the Buddha got Enlightenment) destroyed.

One of the appeals to the spread of Buddhism was the protection of cattle wealth, which was needed for the agricultural economy. In a way while Brahminism `succeeded' in banishing Buddhism from India, it had also to transform itself from the `animal sacrifice' state to the one which could be in tune with the times. It is here that this ideology took up the cow as a symbol of their ideological march. But unlike Buddha whose pronouncements were based on reason, the counteraction of Brahminical ideology took the form of a blind faith based on assertion. So while Buddha's non-violence was for the preservation of animal wealth for the social and compassionate reasons the counter was based purely on symbolism. So while the followers of Brahminical ideology accuse Buddha of `weakening' India due to his doctrine of non-violence, he was not a cow worshipper or vegetarian in the current Brahminical sense.

Despite the gradual rigidification of Brahminical `cow as mother' stance, large sections of low castes continued the practice of beef eating. The followers of Buddhism continued to eat flesh including beef. Since Brahminism is the dominant religious tradition, Babur, the first Mughal emperor, in his will to his son Humayun, in deference to these notions, advised him to respect the cow and avoid cow slaughter. With the construction of Hindutva ideology and politics, in response to the rising Indian national movement, the demand for ban on cow slaughter also came up. In post-Independence India RSS repeatedly raised this issue to build up a mass campaign but without any response to its call till the 1980s.

While one must respect the sentiments of those who worship cow and regard her as their mother, to take offence to the objective study of history just because the facts don't suit their political calculations is yet another sign of a society where liberal space is being strangulated by the practitioners of communal politics. We have seen enough such threats and offences in recent past - be it the opposition to films or the destruction of paintings, or the dictates of the communalists to the young not to celebrate Valentine's Day, etc., - and hope the democratic spirit of our Constitution holds the forte and any threat to the democratic freedom is opposed tooth and nail.

Prof. RAM PUNIYANI

A member of EKTA (Committee for Communal Amity), Mumbai

I have heard this thing before also that ‘fish’ are lower on the evolutionary scale of consciousness than that of plants, vegetarian foods, carrots eggplant..etc.

Now with your own good reason consider...

Does a carrot have eyes?

Can an eggplant swim?

It just seems contrary to objective reasoning that a ‘Turnip' would be more evolved in consciousness that a Fish'

**~ahimsa now~**

In this context, it is interesting to read statements such as "In the month of Kartika, one should avoid eating meat."

If the animal volunteers to be eaten as with the American Bison, can there then said to be violence with the eating of the meat of that animal and so then one would still be compassionately correct?

"The buffalo gives itself so the people may live." Lakota Sioux

While these sentiments are outside of what we traditionally consider the vaisnava tradition, it is interesting how both Krishna and Kachina both begin with K and so perhaps some vaisnavas entered some dark and mysterious caves that transverse the earth and emerged in North America and Native Americans are the lost vaisnavas.

QUOTE(babu @ Jul 17 2005, 02:53 AM)

If the animal volunteers to be eaten as with the American Bison, can there then said to be violence with the eating of the meat of that animal and so then one would still be compassionately correct?

"The buffalo gives itself so the people may live."  Lakota Sioux

While these sentiments are outside of what we traditionally consider the vaisnava tradition, it is interesting how both Krishna and Kachina both begin with K and so perhaps some vaisnavas entered some dark and mysterious caves that transverse the earth and emerged in North America and Native Americans are the lost vaisnavas.

Excuse me Mr. babu..

I think the Native American siddhanta resembles more the Shaivite or Tantrika traditions....certainly not Vaishnava, please try not to confuse the young whipper snappers here with your word jugglery my good man!

Did you not a one time post some research of the parellograms (or was it trapezoids) between vaisnava and Tantrika? Anyway, I'll let you have your way and "K" stands for Kali and not Krishna.

QUOTE

Did you not a one time post some research of the parellograms (or was it trapezoids) between vaisnava and Tantrika?  Anyway, I'll let you have your way and "K" stands for Kali and not Krishna.

probably trapezoids with fizzie overtones..

Well, I hope the traps you've been using to catch zoids with have all been cruelty free and you "catch and release"?

I use fizzies to trap zoids and yes I 'trap and release' after annointing their heads with oil...

A sentimental link can perhaps be made also between lost vaisnavas and Native Americans plus hippies in California in the nineteen sixties. It is a fact that love (prema) and peace (ahimsa) are two aspects of evolution of consciousness, but in a reverse way. This could indicate the wheel of samsara prone to malfunction, resulting, if not detected in time, in each lost vaisnava becoming The Last of the Mohicans! However, it appears that The Last himself believed a dear one is never “lost”, for in his own words he promises (see the movie): “I will find you; no matter where they’ll take you, I will find you…”, meaning that in reality vaisnavas are never lost.

Very nice Anand, however I must correct your translation of ahimsa (being an advocate of the doctrine myself)

ahimsa simply means 'non-violence' not peace svaminiji...

shanti,

jijaji

Margaret Case's book mentions the Radha Raman "Maharaj Ji" (father of Srivatsa Goswami) giving diksha on a large scale to villagers in Orissa. She records Maharaj Ji as saying that 85% of them become vegetarian and give up alcohol after diksha. The book is clear about these poor villagers being given special attention--"spiritual welfare"--but perhaps there has always been a segment of sadhakas whose diets weren't strict.

Not mine, Native American...

QUOTE(Anand @ Jul 19 2005, 10:34 PM)

QUOTE

I must correct your translation of ahimsa

Not mine, Native American...

Well it's not a Native American term now is it svaminiji.. just watch it from now on ok?

shanti,

jijaji

This same theme is presented in "The Legend of Baggar Vance". Clearly its no mistake the Native Americans were called Indians as their philosophy echoes that of India. I feel its most appropriate that we complete the hoop and call them vaisnavas.