On Copyright Issues -

We should probably keep from posting links to pirated software here.

Radhe Radhe!

Whose translation and reading is it?

Thank you!

Rasaraja dasa

More importantly, who holds the copyright? Is this available for open & free download?

Radhe Radhe!

That was what I was getting at.

We do not want to advertise pirated software or material on GD. The devotees that created such projects do so with great expense, time and effort and we don't want to encourage those that are interested in their product to receive it illegally. We especially don’t want to implicate GD in such issues.

Thank you for your understanding.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I'm merging into this thread the posts that followed your post. They should answer your question. Even if people swap copyrighted devotional materials among themselves and feel that it is acceptable, I believe it unchallengedly crosses the line of acceptability when products are meant to be commercially available are offered for free on public websites without the prior permission of the producer.

I would also suggest that you either remove the links to your download page from your signature or otherwise remove the copyrighted materials from your site. Practically all internet service providers have a zero tolerance policy for offering "warez" or downloads violating copyright policies, and especially in cases of commonly known software, such as the Folio Views, they tend to shut down sites rather quick.

I appreciate your desire to share. To give a vision for the future, you may want to look into producing original materials, perhaps along the lines of what we do at Lake of Flowers Productions, and make them available for free. If producing original audio and video media are beyond your means, you may for example transcribe lectures from your favorite sadhus.

It's not up to anyone at GD to give you permission to post. You need to seek legal permission from the copyright holder. This is not neccessarily Damodar das, as he is simply the narrator.

Also, it is highly unlikely you will get permission to post these files. Understand that you are taking money directly away from the copyright holder when you post them for free.

Having the links on GD in any form puts it in an uncomfortable position as GD is then seen as the via medium for obtaining the files. I admin'ed a machine that was hacked by an IRC group & used to host Windows XP isos & a Disney movie. I got very nasty letters from both MS & Disney because users were able to access the files through my machine. They were uninterested in pursuing it to the culprits.

As Braja said, this server is in the US, and there are many, many copyright laws, and lots of lawyers that want to defend them.

Well we would do well to be more scared of displeasing Vaishnavas than Lord Nityananda. If you are taking the translation or other work of another and publishing it without his permission, chances are you are likely displeasing him.

It's simple. Don't post links to material you don't have explicit permission to post at GD. GD does not need the hassle, and if anyone does decide to pursue legal protection of their copyrights, GD would be implicated for distributing the material.

As Braja said, GD's hosting company has a strict policy about distibuting this kind of material, and trust me, they will not be sympathetic to your arguement. They would well be within their rights to shut down the GD server and we would all be up a creek.

Originals are one thing, translations are another thing. There may be any number of translations of a given original text, some better and some worse. Producing a translation is a creative process, not at all unlike writing a commentary. Of course you cannot copyright the original text, but you can copyright a translation. You don't even need to copyright it, it is copyrighted by default.

As for "why would they be displeased", that simply isn't yours to decide on their behalf. If you have the least bit of interest in respecting the Vaishnavas who worked hard towards translating the said texts, you'll get in touch with them to ensure the free public distribution of their translations is in accordance with their wishes. Not everyone may view the world the same way you do, and that doesn't mean their world is any less devotional than yours.



Perhaps you should do a bit of reading on copyrights, for example at Copyright.Gov, or 10 Big Myths about copyright explained. Copyrights aren't there just to ensure your work doesn't get changed. Copyright is there, first and foremost of all, to ensure that you have all legal rights to decide who can and who cannot copy your work, whether for financial gain or otherwise.

Member, even the site where you have your own pages has this message quite prominently displayed:



I realize that those pages probably aren't yours but are those of an associate but it does indicate the basic point: people have the right to control their original works. There is also a tendency to be more liberal with others' property than we are with our own.

sacredtexts.com also has good and relevant information on copyrights. Their offering of early translations isn't due to those translations being necessarily the best; they just happen to be translations whose copyrights have expired. In some cases, they are copyrighted texts that have been released by the author for non-commercial use.

But again, the main issue for us is one of liability. It seems you are quite widely advertising the files you have available but, besides not doing it here, you might want to tone that down on the other forums where you post also in order to protect your own liability. You will likely just get a warning if someone does bring attention to your activities...unless someone thinks that there is money to be gained from pursuing you or their lawyers just need something to do in order to keep collecting a paycheck. Even a frivilous suit here in the US can cost a lot of money. First of all because it will be filed in another jurisdiction, which will require you to travel to that place and/or hire a lawyer who can represent you there. If you do neither of those, you will likely receive a summary judgement against you. Bottom line: big hassle.

Perhaps the reason why people are making a big deal out of it is that here we have a good number of people onboard who know the practicalities of what it takes to produce a translation, a recording or whatever else you may have.

You say that the only audio you don't have permission for is Chaitanya Bhagavata. To the best of my knowledge, audio and books from BBT, GVP and Mandala aren't in the public domain, nor are the translations of Sarvabhavana, Kusakratha and the rest. I suppose you have sought their permissions, then?

Really? To you personally, or as a general comment? If he has contributed all his translations to public domain, then they should of course be made easily available. What I have from Kusakratha, published by The Krishna Institute, though, have the following notice: YEAR © Peter Viggiani, All Rights Reserved. If that isn't the case, then good for him, but I'd like to see a clear statement to that extent, so we can all confidently share and make his translations available.

Kusakratha aside, what about the rest?

The fact that someone offers something for free doesn't imply that everyone can grab it and give it for free. They have a license to give it for free, and they are giving the product for free. That doesn't mean they are giving their license to distribute for free along with the product. That may or may not be the case.

For example, you'll find many freeware programs that forbid offering them for download from anywhere and everywhere. People (copyright holders) may exercise that for a number of reasons, for example to ensure that the quality of what's distributed is equal to the original product offered.

Rather than assume that you can do everything that isn't forbidden, in the realm of copyright you can only do that which is explicitly allowed. If no such license is allowed, you cannot just assume rights as you please, even if it would make all the transcendental sense in the world to you. How great a trouble would it be to actually contact the producers of the titles you're offering and ask if it is OK with them that you offer their productions for free?

You don't have time to wait for a Vaishnava's opinion on what you may or may not do with something he has prepared? Isn't that awfully disrespectful? Besides, where's the hurry? If you need to wait for an e-mail for a couple of days, or even a couple of weeks, how does that make any difference? Each second counts in the grand scheme of things?

If they say no, then that means it isn't their desire and they don't agree with your view. Now that you recognize that some might actually say no, do you feel right about deciding on their behalf and basically walking over their heads?

Hmm. Do you recognize that BBT the Organization has a right to say no, both legally and in a devotional sense?

If you say that no Vaishnava would really mind, but that BBT the Organization would probably mind, are you not essentially saying they do not have the mood of a Vaishnava?

You just ain't gonna get it, are you?

You must have permission to distribute publically. No 'probably', no 'No Vaishnava would really mind'. You need permission.

Why don't you PM Advaita das asking him about distributing his books for free on the Internet? I would be very interested to hear his response. He is as real a Vaisnava as any I know. Try your logic on him. I don't think you will have to wait weeks to hear back from him.

I once saw something he wrote to one self-appointed internet librarian who offered his works for free. Without further comments on its contents, let it suffice to say that you really really don't want to try giving away his works on a public website for free.

You can find contact info for Advaita Das at http://www.madangopal.com/ .

I note that in the Vanibase you offer for download, you have something from Dasarath Suta. I remember one follower of Narayan Maharaja once relating to me how Dasarath had attended a happening featuring Narayan Maharaja and brought up the issue of their "borrowing" his translations for their Giti Guccha song book. This lady, in charge of compiling songs for the book, had emphatically told him how he should be happy that they are taking his translations, as in this way he can also serve a pure devotee and gain eternal benefit. As the translator still seemed a bit incensed over the issue, she offered him ten bucks as a reimbursement. I don't think he took it.

So you may want to at least check with Dasarath if his works are good for distribution, given the precedent I'm familiar with myself.

I note that this has to do with the endeavors of Swami Gaurangapada. You may want to communicate the same to him.

That they are already online doesn't really mean anything at all. It's like saying, "Hey, it was already stolen!" Many of the texts that are "already online" have never been approved for such free distribution by their translators. Again - Ishvara Das, Sarvabhavana Das, Kusakratha Das, Mahanidhi Swami, Purnaprajna Das, Bhanu Swami? All featured on downloads available on your site.

Not that I would mind if they were actually freely available, if the authors had given their permission for distributing them in e-format for free. That would be great. Yet the ethical and devotionally proper thing to do is to ask for another's permission instead of scavenging his rights based on an assumption that he would say yes, and with a footnote, "And if he wouldn't agree, what would I do then?"

He has a list of his publications on his website. I'm suggesting you ask him his opinion as he is a known Vaisnava and published author. As you can see, he has translated many works by our Acharyas, and I'm sure would have something to say on the topic. If you are afraid to approach the BBT because they might say no, just ask Advaita das-ji his opinion on the whole issue. He will give you some insight from the author's point of view, and you get to meet and make a new Vaisnava friend. Everyone wins!

The member whose postings originally started this thread decided to withdraw his contributions. He PMd me and asked me to delete the thread, as there had been something that was somehow personal in nature; I objected, since much valuable information had been posted by others, suggesting he just edit the parts he feels shouldn't be in public. He felt he was funny when he replaced every single post of his with the following in the biggest type size available:


I informed him that I didn't feel his little prank was funny at all. He laughed at me. Apparently he truly has no sense of respect for anyone or anything but his own ideas of what he wants to do.

I have now replaced every mention of this member's name with Member in this thread and removed all of his posts.

His account has been removed due to a violation of the registration terms he agreed to follow when he signed up for the board. We might have let him go with a warning, had it not been for his behavior in the aftermath of the issue.