I believe this issue merits a topic of its own:
QUOTE(Audarya-lila dasa)
To say that someone who isn't a siddha who gives out a siddha deha is giving something less than spiritual is not a deviation as far as I can understand. And to say that one should be at a certain level of advancement before Sri Guru gives information regarding one's perfected spiritual body is also not a deviation - it is an opinion and since there is no conclusive scriptural one way or the other.
What are the grounds on which the conclusion above is drawn? I'd like to first hear the foundation for the pro-argument before we start picking it apart. And please remember, I'd like to follow a route of presentation that has epistemic validity: While I have no objection to statements on "how something makes sense" and "it's been practically seen", I'd like to have this view coupled with either direct scriptural pramana or otherwise sound logic drawing from the same.
QUOTE(Madhava @ Jun 5 2005, 12:27 PM)
I believe this issue merits a topic of its own:
QUOTE(Audarya-lila dasa)
To say that someone who isn't a siddha who gives out a siddha deha is giving something less than spiritual is not a deviation as far as I can understand. And to say that one should be at a certain level of advancement before Sri Guru gives information regarding one's perfected spiritual body is also not a deviation - it is an opinion and since there is no conclusive scriptural one way or the other.
What are the grounds on which the conclusion above is drawn? I'd like to first hear the foundation for the pro-argument before we start picking it apart.
I'd first like someone to explain what the argument is.
I get lost in "... isn't ... something less ... is not ..." in the first sentence. And I can't tell if the second sentence expresses an opinion of the author or of his disputants. A crystal clear clarification before we start would sure help me out.
Dandavats,
Lancer
The gist of the argument, as far as I've understood, is:
- There is a person who is not siddha, meaning he has not attained the stage of bhAva or beyond.
- How can such a person give siddha-praNAlI to anyone? Because he is not a siddha himself, he cannot reveal anyone's siddha-deha.
On what grounds are the devotees who are less than
siddha barred from experiencing revelation and acting as conduits of revelation? Granted, direct
sphurti is only attained at the stage of
bhAva, but there is certainly a deep, reciprocatory relationship between the
sAdhaka steeped in bhajana and the Lord even prior to the attainment of
siddhi.
For has the Lord himself not told in the Gita how he reciprocates with those who worship him earnestly, giving them the insight for attaining him?
teSAM satata-yuktAnAM bhajatAM prIti-pUrvakam |
dadAmi buddhi-yogaM taM yena mAm upayAnti te || 10.10 ||
"To those, who are always engaged in my loving bhajana,
I give the connection of wisdom by which they will come to attain me."
If we were to define the capacity for revelation as the exclusive domain of the
siddha-bhaktas, it would mean that this verse would only apply for those on the stages of
bhAva and beyond.
Baladeva has an interesting commentary on the verse:
satata-yuktAnAM nityaM mad-yogaM vAJchatAM prIti-pUrvakaM mama yAthAtmya-jJAnajena ruci-bhareNa bhajatAM taM buddhi-yogaM sva-bhakti-rasiko dadAmy arpayAmi |
"Always engaged, perpetually and with love desiring a connection with me, worshiping with the support of the ruchi born from the essence of knowledge - I offer the connection of wisdom to these bhakti-rasikas."
Since factual
rAga-bhajana is known as
jAta-ruci-rAgAnugA-sAdhana, or the stage of
rAgAnugA-sAdhana after ruchi has awakened, it is only reasonable to expect that the
rAga-mArga-guru would not be of a lesser devotional accomplishment. After all, how would he have insight into the realm of
lIlA, if not on the merit of his own accomplishment in bhajana? The
ruchi-bhakta, however, is not a
siddha yet.
Then again, faith works miracles and Bhagavan, the knower of everyones' heart, takes care of those who have with a sincere heart entered the path of
Atma-samArpana through receiving
dIkSA, ensuring that all will be auspicious for them even if there may be an objective shortcoming in the power of their guru. The disciple's relationship with the guru is a subjective interplay with the
vyAsti-guru and the
samAsti-guru, the latter being the efficient guru-principle in all gurus and the guarantee of reciprocation for the faithful disciple.