Discussions on other Vaishnava-sampradayas and Gaudiyas other than the Rupanuga-tradition should go here. This includes for example Madhva, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Gaura-nagari, Radha-vallabhi and the such.
The Kartabhajas - In 19th Century Bengal
adiyen - Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:40:33 +0530
This thread has been split from the Saraswata-parampara discussion.
* * * * * * * * * *Speaking of exceptions, it strikes me that one of the main players in the larger context of the drama of founding of IGM is now forgotten: the Kartabhaja sect founded by Aulchand in the 18th century, which became huge but then disappeared a century later. It seems to me that much of IGM polemic can be best understood as implicitly directed at the sect, what to speak of underlying influence on IGM ideas of the Kartabhaja's profound anti-traditionalism - I think this would be an interesting line of research (Bhaktivinoda's 'Marketplace of the Holy Name' appears to have been borrowed from the Kartabjajas, and perhaps much more as well.)
see
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subj...139003&view=usahttp://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-513902-X?view=00http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/r...:10.1086/381330Some tantalising quotes from Jeffrey Kripal's review:
"The Kartabhajas (literally, those who worship [bhaja] the master or boss [karta] constitute an eclectic Bengali Tantric tradition with historical and doctrinal connections to Sahajiya Vaißnavism, Sufism, ‡akta Tantra, and (more speculatively and tangentially) Protestant Christianity that traces its roots back to the late eighteenth century and the charismatic career of a wandering, semi legendary Muslim fakir named Aulca“d (d. 1779), who later followers identified as a reincarnation of the sixteenth-century Bengali ecstatic ‡ri Caitanya. Urban sees the appearance of Aulca“d in the mid-eighteenth century as occurring at a liminal and thus deeply symbolic time and place in colonial Bengal. Indeed, Aulca“d is said to have appeared in the exact same year as the Battle of Plassey (1757), when the political and economic control of the area was passing gradually but effectively from Muslim to British hands. It was precisely in this transitional space between an indigenous feudal economy and a distinctly capitalist and colonial one that the Kartabhaja tradition appeared, setting itself up, oftentimes quite humorously, as an alternate and competing trading “company,” the Company of the Poor...
If the British introduced a capitalist system that effectively destroyed the feudal substructure, the Kartabhaja leaders created and maintained an Amway-like pyramid system in which taxes and revenues were collected from disciples and subgurus until their sums reached extraordinary amounts at the top of the pyramid: ironically, the divine leaders of the “Company of the Power” became fantastically rich, and this at the expense of the poorest of the poor...'
* * * * *
QUOTE(Madhava @ Jun 2 2005, 02:44 PM)
QUOTE
Here is another question: Is there history of someone who had a varient view of Gaudiya Vaisnava teachings and the community attempted to expel him by presenting him as an uninitiated devotee?
Jagadbandhu comes to mind first, but then again I don't think he ever claimed for diksha, even. Along with him, one has to raise questions over his followers...
Ummm, no-one saw my post above? Kartabhajas!
They became enormously influential for a time in 19th Century Bengal, then collapsed in a major scandal involving sex and enormous wealth of Gurus.
By 20th Century they were gone but not forgotten!
They claimed that Aulchand was Mahaprabhu Chaitanya (therefore no need for parampara!), long before Jagadbandhu, and they rode on the success of the British East India Co, which swept early 19th century Bengal like a whirlwind. They also were the first to suggest modernist 'reform' of Gaudiyaism, by rejecting caste. They created a powerful hierarchical organisation, an early precursor of Maths and Samajas.
And they went down in a major scandal. It was surely necessary for anyone remotely associated with Sri Chaitanya at that time to distance themselves fully from the Kartabhaja charismatic, casteless, 'only Guru but no parampara' style.
iti!
Some supporting stuff:
http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?showtopic=3580
Radhapada - Fri, 03 Jun 2005 07:24:05 +0530
I saw it. Very insightful indeed!
Hari Saran - Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:57:26 +0530
Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura
"I discussed all these matters to some extent with others and learned that our fakirs were Kartabhaja [a Caitanya Vaisnava sect]. In comparison with the Ghoshpara their behaviour was very good. Be that as it may, I had faith in the mantra and their doctrines. Even though Gurudeva was a muchi I had no lack of faith in him. One day he said, "Soon the village of Ula will be mostly destroyed. The people would die from fever and disease. How will the people remain in such a village?"
My ill health had improved and my wife was brought to Ula. Mother then said, "Arrange the marriage of Hemalata. You go to Calcutta and take me with you."
========
“Karta Bhaja preaches not to steal, not to kill, not to tell lies, not to use rough language, not to mix with others’ wives etc. Drinking is strictly prohibited. The followers do not eat fish and never touch even liquor. Meat is also prohibited.
All observe Friday and listen to Bhabargit. Images are not worshipped. They say : “Worship human beings, think of them, depend on them. Everything is play of the human beings.”
Interesting words about human beings, is there a sloka or a concept that could match the idea?
adiyen - Fri, 03 Jun 2005 10:43:58 +0530
Probably you need to look further afield.
Try Kabir, who lived very early in the North Indian Bhakti rennaissance, and was also influenced by Sufis (Sikhism was one result). Aulchand was actually thought to be a wandering Sufi mystic too.
see this example of Kabir's teaching:
http://www.boloji.com/kabir/mysticsongs/km1.htmalso
http://www.sufismjournal.org/art/art.htmlhere's a long essay which gives context:
http://banglapedia.org/HT/P_0157.htm
Hari Saran - Fri, 03 Jun 2005 13:18:19 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Jun 3 2005, 05:13 AM)
Probably you need to look further afield.
Try Kabir, who lived very early in the North Indian Bhakti rennaissance, and was also influenced by Sufis (Sikhism was one result). Aulchand was actually thought to be a wandering Sufi mystic too.
see this example of Kabir's teaching:
http://www.boloji.com/kabir/mysticsongs/km1.htmalso
http://www.sufismjournal.org/art/art.htmlhere's a long essay which gives context:
http://banglapedia.org/HT/P_0157.htmFor your answer based on this
question , which was extracted from
here. As he revolves
his rosary,
Life passes away,
and he knows
no secret
of his heart.
Throw away
the rosary
of the hand
and resolve
the rosary
of the mind.--Kabir (1398-1456 AD)
I wonder if that somehow would be the glimpses or part of the Renaissance moviment?
Renaissance/"Humanism and Culture of Renaissance Europe"
“Central to the development of Renaissance art was the emergence of the artist as a creator, sought after and respected for his erudition and imagination. Art, too, became valued--not merely as a vehicle for religious and social didacticism, but even more as a mode of personal, aesthetic expression.”
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/glo/renaissance/it.htmlThanks!
Hari Saran - Fri, 03 Jun 2005 23:24:37 +0530
I mean it is interesting to find out how religion has been used as part of the process of oppression and even among the most ‘liberal’ philosophies like Vedic system, the necessity of a reevaluation in the process was made possible by recognizing the human’s nature/instinct/needs as superior to scriptural injunction. In other words, scriptures are for the benefit of humans, but not for itself or any institution, like Kabir and others fought for.
adiyen - Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:54:40 +0530
Yes.
I just used the expression 'Bhakti Rennaissance'. I probably haven't heard it before, the word Rennaissance gets used a lot in Indian history.
There is a parallel between the Bhakti movement and the european Rennaissance, though, come to think of it. It is that the worship of a personal God, with ways like kirtan open to the masses rather than to a closed priesthood, and God seen as having human qualities (as also in the Rennaissance art of Da Vinci and Michelangelo) - God who is no longer remote and abstract, as in both Medieval Western and Indian religious philosophies (Shankara etc) - can all be described as more 'humanistic'. These are themes common to both Rennaissance and last-millenium Bhakti.
And Kabir is one of the pivotal figures. Compare Kabir and Francis of Assisi. They were near contemporaries too, perhaps. (And both met Sufis! -Francis in Palestine. So there's a link.)
(Kabir still has followers, BTW. They are called Kabirpanth. But, believe it or not, I think they have become a separate caste! The Sikhs also are very fond of Kabir).
angrezi - Mon, 06 Jun 2005 04:47:17 +0530
QUOTE
Try Kabir, who lived very early in the North Indian Bhakti rennaissance, and was also influenced by Sufis (Sikhism was one result). Aulchand was actually thought to be a wandering Sufi mystic too.
More recently the very famous and loved Shirdi Sai Baba is said to have been a sufi as well, though his message seems to be intentionally non-sectarian (he lived in a mosque and was buried under a mandir). He's worshipped by both Hindus and Muslims evidently...
http://www.saibabaofshirdi.net/The harijan Ramanamis of Madhya Pradesh also owe much to Kabir. They even combine Kabir's couplets into Rama-carita-manas shlokas for some bhajans.
adiyen - Mon, 06 Jun 2005 05:59:12 +0530
Really? Thank you for that info.
That revered Shirdi Sai is of course not to be confused with the current living popular South Indian who claims his name and legacy.
***
Yes, Ramnamis, Raidas, (Ravidas) and so many others.
Ramdas Lamb is an American scholar who spent years as a Ramnami sadhu in India and wrote about them in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...088039?v=glanceIf we ever start talking about North Indian bhakti in general we should try to include him, he is in many ways 'one of us' only a different sampraday.
angrezi - Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:06:42 +0530
Yes, there are certainly two different Sais, but from what I understand the modern-day afroed Sai Baba claims to be a reincarnation of late Shirdi Sai Baba, which has likely added to his appeal for some.
QUOTE
Ramdas Lamb is an American scholar who spent years as a Ramnami sadhu in India and wrote about them in this book:
I read an essay recently of Ramdas Lamb's on the Ramanamis use of the Ramacarita-manas that was likely taken from that book.
The thing that struck me about the Ramnamis, from reading Lamb's account, is that over time thier devotion to Rama was influenced by works of the Ramasnehi sect and their belief in a nirguna Rama (which also fits in well with Kabir's words), though Lamb doesn't get into any more siddhanta than that in this particular essay.