Discussions specifically related with the various aspects of practice of bhakti-sadhana in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.
Premature renunciation? - When is it valid?
Som - Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:50:50 +0530
Jai Radhe Shyam!
I have a question for my dear Radha Krishna raganuga bhaktas
As we all know there are four ashramas and there's particular time for each of the ashramas namely Brahmacharya, Grahasta, Vanaprastha and Sanyasa..
My query :
1) If a person wants to take premature sanyasa and concentrate fully on Bhajan what should be his qualifications?
2) What will be the symptoms of a person who wants to do that?
And sometimes people say that to be among the material people and environment and not being effected by it is something greater than Sanyasa...
Enlightened Vaishnavas please shed some light on this!
Hari Hari..
Madhava - Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:06:16 +0530
QUOTE
If a person wants to take premature sanyasa and concentrate fully on Bhajan what should be his qualifications?
To begin with, premature renunciation is not recommended. The word premature itself implies that the time is not ripe yet.
Whether a renunciate or a householder, what counts is engaging in bhajan. One should choose a befitting situation in which he can peacefully engage in bhajan. Often wearing the formal dress of a renunciate only invokes obstacles for one's bhajan in the form of followers, worship, position and so forth, obstacles which will easily cause the bhajan to perish.
You may wish to read the story of Tin Kudi Baba and his renunciation.
QUOTE
What will be the symptoms of a person who wants to do that?
The symptom of a person who wants to prematurely renounce the world is that he is very much occupied thinking about whether he should renounce or whether he should not. Visvanatha describes vyudha-vikalpa as one of the stages of anisthita-bhakti (unsteady devotion) in the second shower of his Madhurya Kadambini.After this vyudha vikalpa is described. “Shall I se the Lord while blissfully residing at home, making my wife and children Vaisnavas, or shall I give everything up and peacefully reside in the meditation centre Sri Vrindavana, engaging in devotional practices such sravana and kirtana without disturbance? In this way I will become successful.” Then again he thinks, “If I have to renounce, it would be better first to realize the miseries of sense enjoyment by enjoying my senses. Then can renounce at the final stage – why should I do it now? Then again scriptures show that ‘women are to be seen as blind wells covered with grass, they are unseen death’. Therefore one should not place one’s faith in household life and renounce it at once, like Maharaja Bharata, who renounced it like stool although he was still young and although wife a children are hard to give up. Other scriptural references say: ‘My mother father are both old’ or ‘When one renounces household life before being fully satiated one only thinks of it and enters into darkness after death’. The words were spoken by the Lord Himself and that does not encourage me renounce. Now I can somehow maintain myself, later I will duly enter into the forest and worship Krishna around the clock. Besides, the scriptures also say that ‘Through knowledge and renunciation alone one can not arouse devotion, to Krishna.’”
Actually devotion should not be caused by renunciation, but renunciation should be caused by devotion, for through such renunciation devotion is experienced and it is proven how renunciation is subservient to devotion. There is a popular saying: “In whatever asrama the mendicant went he saw there was plenty to eat”, so that again creates the plan to renounce, household life. Other scriptural statements again condone household life b saying: “Only as long as one is not Krishna-conscious attachments will be like thieves and the home will be like a prison.” Then again one may wonder “Shall I do kirtana, shall I hear katha or shall I render some practical service? Or shall I practice all the items of devotion like King Ambarisa?” While doing bhajana such speculations may take place. They are called vyudha vikalpa.
Thus we may understand that it is best to engage in bhajan now and let the future come as it may.
QUOTE
And sometimes people say that to be among the material people and environment and not being effected by it is something greater than Sanyasa...
Sometimes people say so many things. What counts is your bhajan. One who is more engaged in bhajan is better situated than the one who is less engaged in bhajan, whether he is living with a family or sitting on the top of a tree. To consider one situation better than another one on account of anything but engagement in bhajan is superficial.
Mina - Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:59:17 +0530
Nitai Das has presented evidence on Yahoo groups that the only ashram actually authorized in the Vedas is the householder ashram. The other ashrams, according to his evidence, were later superimpositions upon the original Hindu religion.
Here is part of his posts:
"I am not arguing for the grhastha asrama so much as I am against the other orders. In the Vedas, only one asrama is recognized. The others are un-Vedic, later accretions. Student life is just a preparation for becoming a householder. Thus, the asrama system, wherein all four asrama are combined, is non-Vedic. I am still opposed to VAD. I am just attacking the A at present. Varna has deeper roots and is harder to pull up. Asrama is a more recent weed and is easier to yank out."
He has also made the distinction between actual sannyasa and vesh (or bekh), which means a babaji is someone possessionless (niskincana). The order established by Rupa and Sanatana is not the same as the tri-dandi order of the Sri Sampradaya or the ekadandi order of the Shankarites.
For more you can check out the whole discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/topical-discussions
The point is any dicussion about varna or ashram needs to take into consideration how it fits into the scheme of things for Caitanyaites. Its relevancy for Westerners is highly questionable, especially since we were born outside of it and it is not really part of our own culture.
Somehow this must tie in with any question about sannyasa being premature or (in the alternative) appropriate to someone's stage of life. If I had more time to delve into it, then I could probably write many paragraphs here. One of the professors at U. of Chicago when I was a graduate student there back in the early 1980s had this whole elaborate game for his classes that aimed to teach the complex concepts of caste and kinship in India. It may seem to be this simple subject on the surface, but it is actually much more complicated than I think most Westerners (Vaishnava Westerners included) realize.
Well, perhaps I have steered the conversation in a different direction.
I hope everyone is faring well in the shadow of the anniversary of 9/11. It is difficult not to be affected for any thoughtful or compassionate person. We do not really know how many Caitanyaites might have been killed in the attacks. Let's hope there were none.
Madhava - Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:03:28 +0530
QUOTE
Ramdas Ji, TD doesn't have public archives -- everyone has to first register to view the messages. Would you like to post the gist of Nitai's postings here? I have followed the discussion there with interest, and I believe his input on this matter would be nice to have here as well. He also had some interesting references on Varnasrama in general which I have on record here.
QUOTE
Well, perhaps I have steered the conversation in a different direction.
No, I think a general discussion on the relevance of varnasrama in the context of Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a relevant topic. After all, haven't we already discussed jiva-tattva and parampara here? Why miss a varnasrama-discussion?
:biggrin:
Som - Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:13:27 +0530
Jai Radhe Krishna
Thanks very much Madhavananda Prabhu for your reply and also for the story of Tin Kudi Baba..
Few more queries:
QUOTE
Thus we may understand that it is best to engage in bhajan now and let the future come as it may.
Here by bhajan do you mean bhajan after renouncing everything?
QUOTE
Sometimes people say so many things. What counts is your bhajan. One who is more engaged in bhajan is better situated than the one who is less engaged in bhajan, whether he is living with a family or sitting on the top of a tree. To consider one situation better than another one on account of anything but engagement in bhajan is superficial.
I fully agree with you here.. But is'nt it that if the environment is conducive(i.e., when a person does'nt have to think of anything else and stays in Braj) then it makes the smaranam and bhajan more easy and long-lasting?
Radhe Radhe..
Som - Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:22:18 +0530
Hare Krishna!
QUOTE
Here is part of his posts:
"I am not arguing for the grhastha asrama so much as I am against the other orders. In the Vedas, only one asrama is recognized. The others are un-Vedic, later accretions. Student life is just a preparation for becoming a householder. Thus, the asrama system, wherein all four asrama are combined, is non-Vedic. I am still opposed to VAD. I am just attacking the A at present. Varna has deeper roots and is harder to pull up. Asrama is a more recent weed and is easier to yank out."
Though my knowledge of shastras is very less, but still I feel that it's very logical and correct to have the four ashramas and each has it's own significance, finally enabling the person to attain the highest aim of human life.
Considering the Vanaprastha and Sannyasa as non vedic does'nt sound good...
If these two ashrams are not there then how can a person come out of the attachements to wife, children etc..?
Forgive me if this ignorant person has said something wrong..
Radhe Govind ki Jai!
Madhava - Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:29:42 +0530
QUOTE
QUOTE
Thus we may understand that it is best to engage in bhajan now and let the future come as it may.
Here by bhajan do you mean bhajan after renouncing everything?
No. There is only one kind of bhajan. If one is thinking he has renounced or he has not renounced, he is distracted and not engaged in bhajan. During bhajan no considerations of external definition should be contemplated upon.
QUOTE
I fully agree with you here.. But is'nt it that if the environment is conducive(i.e., when a person does'nt have to think of anything else and stays in Braj) then it makes the smaranam and bhajan more easy and long-lasting?
Going to sweet sweet Radha Kund. Hearing the dogs bark from 10 PM to 4 AM. Hearing the loudspeakers blast (kirtan though, good grace) the music too loud with broken sounds. Taking bath in cold water early in the morning. Being eaten by mosquitoes. Having malaria and dysentry with amoebas in the stomach. Taking kichari, rice, dal and kichari, then kichari and dal, then rice and kichari for maintaining the body. It is a tough environment too, and for many rather straining over long periods of time.
Aside this, the fact for most people is that somehow one has to maintain himself. One may go and wander through the forests of Vraja, living under a different tree every night, but the discomforts one will experience (particularly in the form of diseases) require considerable inner absorption to be transcended. And if one is not able to live a life of a complete akincana, it means he needs to make some arrangements for his maintenance, whether in Vraja or in the West. And making arrangements again means having things to think about, and while in India, it means having quite a bit of headache over accomplishing simple things.
Of course living in Vraja is ideal. In fact, that is where I will also be heading to with my wife over the years, in the mean time making adequate arrangements to facilitate staying there. So definitely that should be an aspiration. But as far as leading a life of akincana there... at least don't do it over night.
Madhava - Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:55:07 +0530
QUOTE
Though my knowledge of shastras is very less, but still I feel that it's very logical and correct to have the four ashramas and each has it's own significance, finally enabling the person to attain the highest aim of human life.
Following asrama-dharma does not give prema. It gives mukti. Gaudiya Vaishnavas consider prema far superior to mukti.
QUOTE
Considering the Vanaprastha and Sannyasa as non vedic does'nt sound good...
If these two ashrams are not there then how can a person come out of the attachements to wife, children etc..?
Through the practice of bhakti. Srimad Bhagavata, first skandha, second chapter:
evaM prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti-yogataH |
bhagavat-tattva-vijJAnaM mukta-saGgasya jAyate || 20 ||
bhidyate hRdaya-granthiz chidyante sarva-saMzayAH |
kSIyante cAsya karmANi dRSTa evAtmanIzvare || 21 ||
ato vai kavayo nityaM bhaktiM paramayA mudA |
vAsudeve bhagavati kurvanty Atma-prasAdanIm || 22 ||
“Thus with a delightful mind absorbed in devotion to Bhagavan, one understands the nature of reality and becomes liberated from the association with matter. Thus the knots in the heart are broken, all uncertainty cut to pieces, and reactions from one’s deeds terminated, having seen the atma as the master. Therefore, certainly all thoughtful men have always delightfully engaged in supreme devotion unto Bhagavan Vasudeva, which enlivens the atma.”
nitai - Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:48:46 +0530
Jaya Sri Radhe Syam Gaur!
OK, ok, Ramdas and Madhavananda Das have been on my case to join the discussion here for a while. So here I am.
I should probably try to put my comments on the asrama system in context. I was responding to someone who was arguing that the purpose of sannyas was to preach. I wanted to show that sannyasa as understood in the earliest texts that discuss it had nothing to do with preaching. In fact, the sannyasi was to maintain silence except when doing his private recitation (i.e. chanting the Veda or in more modern terms reciting his mantra). That the asrama system was regarded with suspicion by the early Hindu law makers was just a kind of sidelight. It doesn't really matter to us very much whether it is Vedic or non-Vedic. We are following Mahaprabhu not the Vedas. In the two millennia since the Dharma Sutras were written the asrama system has become part of mainstream Hinduism. Thus the Bhagavata has at least two sections in which the practices of the asramas are discussed. It seems to me that those discussions are directed at those who are already in the VAD system. Those who are not need not bother with them. According to the Bhagavata one who is born in India is born into the varna system. Varna and asrama considerations are thus for their benefit. For the rest of us, there is simply concern for the cultivation of bhakti. We don't need to bother ourselves with VAD and certainly don't have to become part of that system in order to develop bhakti. That is the point of all those numerous Bhagavata quotes to the effect that even the most perfectly executed dharma is simply useless labor if one doesn't develop a taste for talks about Krsna.
In my opinion, one should stay a householder (even being a single person who has a job is in the householder realm) until one really and firmly wants to devote one's entire day to visualizing the sport of Radha and Krsna. For that, becoming a renunciant along the lines of the renunciation of the babas is useful. As an active householder, one cannot generally devote one's full time to smarana. One can find ways of reminding oneself regularly throughout the day of what R and K are doing, but full-fledged smarana is generally not possible.
After retirement, however, one may be able to practice smarana even without renunciation. I know of many caste Goswami who in retirement spent their days tasting the rasa of bhakti for Krsna. Rashbihari Goswami, for instance, was like that. He was one of the Radharaman Goswamis and was still alive when I first arrived in Vrindaban.
The process is such that as one's taste for Krsna-katha increases one's desire for and attachment to everything else diminishes. Whether one is officially in a renounced order or not, when that happens one is renuonced.
ys
Nitai
Som - Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:58:32 +0530
Jai Radha Madhav!
Thanks very much for your enlightening and factual answers Madhavananda Ji, Nitai Ji!
QUOTE
The process is such that as one's taste for Krsna-katha increases one's desire for and attachment to everything else diminishes.
I've got a devotee friend who has taste something like this and this question of the premature sannyasa was asked keeping him in mind.. He has an immense interest in Krishna katha! and so his interest in other activities are diminishing...
So what do the enlightened Vaishnavas here think he should do?
Radha Raman Hari Govind bolo!
Jagat - Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:57:05 +0530
My usual advice in such cases is the same as for engaging in raganuga bhakti. See BhP 1.5.17--
tyaktvä sva-dharmaà caraëämbujaà harer
bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi
yatra kva väbhadram abhüd amuñya kià
ko värtha äpto 'bhajatäà sva-dharmataùIf someone gives up self-gratificatory pursuits and works in Krishna consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?
OR
One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand a non-devotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything.
We are not bound by birth or short lifetimes. We have the chance to experiment. We will eventually find our proper level of engagement, but the gains from even brief moments of wholehearted commitment will produce a deep samskara that will remain for the rest of one's days.
Thus,
na vai jano jätu kathaïcanävrajen
mukunda-sevy anyavad aìga saàsåtim
smaran mukundäìghry-upagühanaà punar
vihätum icchen na rasa-graho janaùNever does a servant of Lord Mukunda who falls away from that service ever undergo material existence like others, because anyone who has once relished the taste of Krishna’s lotus feet remembers those ecstasies again and again and can ultimately never give them up. (1.5.19)
We never learn anything until we try to exceed ourselves in some way.
Jagat - Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:10:23 +0530
That is of course unless he's married and has children, etc. One should not quickly throw aside responsiblities one has assumed.
Som - Thu, 12 Sep 2002 23:24:49 +0530
Hare Krishna!
Thanks very much Jagat ji for your answer..
QUOTE
One who has forsaken his material occupations to engage in the devotional service of the Lord may sometimes fall down while in an immature stage, yet there is no danger of his being unsuccessful. On the other hand a non-devotee, though fully engaged in occupational duties, does not gain anything.
Does this mean that a person can go for premature sannyasa if he does'nt have much responsibilities?
Radha Raman Hari Govind bolo!
Jagat - Fri, 27 Sep 2002 05:15:33 +0530
If you know you are immature, then it is silly to take sannyas officially. There is no need to seek official sannyas. Just try to practice renunciation. See how far you can take it. If it comes naturally, then stick with it. Eventually, your status will be blessed by a higher situated sadhaka.
kamala - Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:14:53 +0530
In this contest I have a question,
I am married and have a child. I am around 38. I feed up with Karmi working. I feel like retiring from Karmi work and dedicate my life to the service of Radha and Krishna. Also I am not at all interested in the materiel work after coming to Krishna consciousness. If I go now to Holy dham means premeture renunciation? Is it better to stay in Vrindhavan and do bhajan?. Is it better for the child to be in Krishna conscious in the holy dham?. I like to teach him Sanskrit,Hindi and Bengali also. Sciptures say to stay in madhura or Vrindhavan. Or I can stay in west and have SORT of Vrindhavan consciousness. I never lived more than 1 month at a time in Vrindhavan. What is the opinion of the vishnavas?. Please enlighten me. I am really confused? To go to vrindhavan and stay in Vrindhavan become more after reading the book Sri Vrindavana Mahima by Srila prabodhananda saraswati. I don't mind taking any risk if I can really get prema bhakti by doing bajan under great vishnavas their. Any practical opinions please. Also what is the opinion of the babaji's regarding staying in Holi dham. I never meet a siddha babaji that is why I ask this question.
Jai Sri Radhe
Radhapada - Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:48:00 +0530
Baba would always tell his disciples to live in Radha Kunda. "Don't leave Radha Kunda"! If you can live there peacefully and take care of your family then that is the best for bhajan. There is a Sanskrit school there that is run by Vaisnavapada Das Baba, a senior Guru brother of mine, who is well known scholar and high devotee in Radha Kunda and Vrndavan. He often gives lectures to the devotees, while Baba Maharaja is there in the audience. I heard he was the best Sanskrit student in Calcutta. You child can learn many languages from the western devotees living there, German, Italian, Spanish, Slovene, Russian, even Hungarian, so what to speak of Hindi and Bengali.
However, if you have never lived there then you should know what it is like. Materially speaking, living in Radha Kunda is no picnic.
Being sick of karmi work could be a result of Krsna consciousness, but it could also be the result of not doing what you like to do in terms of a career. If you will be happy doing bhajan all day that's great. But if you will be miserable because you don't have enough to satisfy your material needs, then you will not do bhajan, but just worry. And if you cannot stay in the dhama to do bhajan, bhajan can be done outside of the dhama as well.
Bhaktavasya - Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:37:27 +0530
I'm reading this thread for the first time, and wish to express my appreciation for the speakers as well as add my contribution as one embroiled and blest in family life. As I type my 24 year old daughter is agreed to give me some time to write if I agree to watch a video of Terminator 2 with her. I'm her permanent care-taker, otherwise she'd have to live in a psychiatric boarding house along with other adult 'difficult to house' people. Sorry to be so soul-bearing, this kind of situation isn't foreign to many householders. So you stay because it's your service to Krishna, and you pray for the times when you can 'be with Krishna', private bhajan at 3 a.m. and it's got to be Krishna's arrangement that the child comes out of her room and wants to talk about her problems. And it's got to be Radha's arrangement when you 'freak out' and say "I'm tired of hearing of all your problems, 24-7. This is my time to be alone, okay, now get over your 'self' and get some new interests, for Christ's sake!" Studying the patient for so long, I surmise she has a special connections with Jesus. She sort of smiles with I say that name, as if everything is going to be alright. That's when 'family life' is a blessing. Yearning to be 'somewhere else' and discovering that you are exactly where you are meant to be.
Bhaktavasya - Mon, 04 Nov 2002 14:10:06 +0530
First of all, I have a question for Nitai. Aren't there various 'kinds' of sannyasis. Some have renounced the world yet 'preach' the glories of names and accept disciples who they must verbally instruct?
Next I want to distinguish between material attachment and love for one's family members. Too often it has been said that family life and attachment to enjoying them go hand and hand. What if (for example) your child is physically or mentally impaired and your service to God is taking care of that child even after he or she reaches adulthood? There are so many scenerios where a person is unable to leave family life yet doesn't their times of bhajan and moments of uninterrupted
contemplation not equal and sometimes surpass the silent withdrawn ways of the sannyasi?
Anyways, Lord Caitanya refused to identify himself as a sannyasi or a grhasta but as an eternal servant of Krishna.
Maybe I'm out of my league here.
Madhava - Mon, 04 Nov 2002 14:33:25 +0530
QUOTE
Next I want to distinguish between material attachment and love for one's family members. Too often it has been said that family life and attachment to enjoying them go hand and hand. What if (for example) your child is physically or mentally impaired and your service to God is taking care of that child even after he or she reaches adulthood?
One should live in a befitting way. Householders live as householders and renunciates live as renunciates. If one whimsically adopts the duties of another while still living in a different status of life, what good will follow?
QUOTE
There are so many scenerios where a person is unable to leave family life yet doesn't their times of bhajan and moments of uninterrupted contemplation not equal and sometimes surpass the silent withdrawn ways of the sannyasi?
Both householder and renunciate are external designations and in themselves do not define the quality of bhajan. Many illustrious maha-purushas have been householders and lived a splendid life of devotion while still in family life. The names Ananda Gopal Gosvami and Prana Gopala Gosvami come to my mind. More on Prana Gopala Gosvami later.
The Gaudiya tradition outside of the Gaudiya Matha basically consists of householder Gosvamis and their disciples on the householder side, and Babajis and some other tyagis on the other side. But it is not like in the Gaudiya Matha model, that everything is centered around a Matha of renunciates, and everyone should try to emulate the behavior of the Matha-vasis to be acceptable. This idea became particularly emphasized in ISKCON, as the GM's monastic model, which was already somewhat alien to the tradition itself, was lifted out of its cultural surrounding into the Western society.
Having said all this, the life of a renunciate has some inherent benefits for a life of bhajan, as there are less interruptions for one's concentration in the form of various duties to be taken care of. To illustrate the point, look at the example of driving on a highway. If you have no or a few cars only on the highway, you have a greater possibility for driving very fast to reach your destination. On the other hand, if there are plenty of cars or even worse, a traffic jam, it will likely be somewhat slower. Of course one who is expert can drive very fast anywhere. And many are of the opinion that when one learns to focus on bhajan in the midst of many obstacles, then what more obstacles can remain in the future when the surroundings become more peaceful? Then one will be "already boiled" and can peacefully focus on bhajan, in contrast to the newcomer renunciate who often struggles hard with the smallest sensual distractions.
QUOTE
Maybe I'm out of my league here.
To be honest, I don't think there's much of a league here. It is a very mixed collection of individuals from all walks of life. Give a good guess, how many renunciates participate on this forum?
Mina - Wed, 06 Nov 2002 00:39:38 +0530
Excellent points, Madhavananda Ji.
It seems that many Western Vaishnavas get kind of obsessed with the idea of renunciation and somehow feel they need to aspire to that stage as quickly as possible. If they would get obsessed with chanting without offenses instead, then they would make better progress in their bhajan. Its also not all that practical to be a pure vairagi in this part of the world. Not that it is particularly easy in India, but at least there is an infrastructure over there that supports the community of renunciates so that they do not have to pound the pavement to drum up financial support as religious leaders do in the West.
Also, if too many people renounced this world, society would come apart at the seams. The nuclear family has always been the basic unit of organization for human beings. It has also played a key role in the propagation of Caitanyaism over the centuries - probably far moreso than the vairagi community.
nitai - Thu, 07 Nov 2002 01:52:25 +0530
Greetings all,
Jaya Radhe!
Someone asked me a question and the jinn in the machine let me know about it somehow. So here I am to try to answer. The question is about different kinds of sannyasis. Sure there are tall ones, short ones, and fat ones, well mostly fat ones. Seriously, though. I do recall reading somewhere, probably in the Bhagavata that there are different varieties of sannyasa, but I can't seem to find that now. The two places where the sannyasa asrama is discussed at length that I know of (7.13 and 11.18) don't mention different varieties. 11.18.12 gives the qualification for taking sannyasa: "When a genuine feeling of renunication is generated towards the worlds ..." A perusal of those passages makes it clear I think that sannyasa as envisioned in the Bhagavata and in the dharma texts that the Bhagavata echos is not a teaching stage of life. It is meant to be the stage in which a person cuts off his attachments to the world and really strives for absolute freedom. Sannyasis are not supposed to be building institutions and making disciples and writing books. They are supposed to be fully engaged in understanding the self and its relationship with the supreme, primarily by detachment and meditation. The oldest of the surviving Dharma-sutras, the Apastamba-dharma-sutra (? 3rd cent. BCE), says (2.21.10), quoting some unknown source:
He should live as a silent sage, without fire or house, without shelter or protection.
The text continues: Speaking only when he is engaged in private vedic recitation (svadhyaya) and obtaining food from a village to sustain himself, he should live without concern for this world or the next.
In other words, good sannyasis should be seen not heard. Some how things have gotten all twisted around and now sannyasis think they are supposed to be teachers and preachers. This is not the Hindu tradition or the Vaisnava tradition; it is the influence of Christianity and its monkish business. The traditional teachers in the Hindu tradition were and are the householders. They are the ones who should build institutions and write books and make disciples.
When a person takes sannyasa he essentially performs his own funeral rite. In other words, he dies to his former life. He is supposed to leave everything behind and head for moksa with just a loincloth. What has happened in modern Gaudiya Vaisnavism, especially of the ISKCON/GM variety, is that the durn ghosts refuse to leave. It is being haunted by these saffroned ghouls who think that suddenly the whole world turns around them. They were supposed to fade out of the picture, but instead they are busy making everyone else in the picture bow down to them.
Apastamba goes on to reject sannyasa and insist that the only order of life that the Vedas really condone is the householder order (1.23.3-12). He says: The sciptures declare, moreover, that immortality consists of offspring: 'In your offspring you are born again. That, O mortal, is your immortality (Taittiriya Brahmana 1.5.5.6)'
I don't reject sannyasa, however, if someone really observes it. I just don't think it is a practice that is useful or beneficial for Gaudiya Vaisnavism or the practice of raganuga. Of course, none of these current ISKCON/GM sannyasis do really observe it. If they did, we would never hear from them again.
All for now. Got to get back to work.
Nitai Das
Madhava - Thu, 07 Nov 2002 03:08:37 +0530
There are two different divisions of sannyasis that I know of, a four-fold gradational division and a three-fold motivational division.
vaikhAnasA vAlakhilyau-dumbarAH phenapA vane
nyAse kuTIcakaH pUrvaM bahvodo haMsa-niSkriyau
“Those in the forest (vana) are vaikhAnasa, vAlakhilya, audumbara and phenapa. Those who are renounced (nyAsI) are first kuTIcaka, then bahvoda, haMsa and niSkriya.”
KuTIcaka is one who stays in a hermit’s hut, receiving alms from his son and family. Bahvoda is one who begs here and there for his sustenance. Hamsa means a swan. I do not know of its exact meaning, but it would logically follow that haMsa is one who no longer begs, but accepts whatever comes on its own accord. NiSkriya is one who ceases to act altogether.
Bhaktivedanta Swami presents different terms for the fourfold division of sannyasis, that being kuTIcaka, bahUdaka, parivrAjakAcArya, and paramahaMsa. Here haMsa and niSkriya have changed to parivrAjakAcArya and paramahaMsa. ParivrAjaka refers to a wandering religious mendicant. Here the term "AcArya" has been employed as a suffix to parivrAjaka to interpret it as a mendicant who travels around to preach. ParamahaMsa is understood as being akin to a niSkriya, one who is lost from the world in internal absorption.
It appears that there is also a fusion of the two, commonly known as "paramahaMsa parivrAjakAcArya". This species of nyAsI is commonly met in the monasteries of Gaudiya Math and ISKCON. Instead of 108 paramahaMsa parivrAjakAcArya, sometimes we think it would be more appropriate to address them as 108 kuTIcaka bahUdaka, or those who have 108 houses around the world, and who can wander to any one of them and get good meals and a soft place to sleep.
Then another division of nyAsis. Gaudiya Kanthahara quotes from the Svarga-Khanda of Padma Purana:
jJAnA-sannyAsinAH kecid-vedA-sAnnyAsino 'pAre
kArmA-sannyAsi-nAs-tvAnye trividhAH pArikItitAH
“There are three kinds of sannyAsA: karma-sannyasa, jnana-sannyasa, and veda-sannyasa.”
The theory of three different kinds of sannyasis is employed in explaining the "kalau paJca-vivarjayet" verse of Brahma Vaivarta Purana which forbids sannyasa for the modern age, proposing that only karma-sannyasa and jnana-sannyasa are forbidden. Supposedly veda-sannyasa is excluded from the jurisdiction of the verse, whatever that veda-sannyasa is.
Tungavidya - Thu, 07 Nov 2002 21:27:19 +0530
QUOTE
Instead of 108 paramahaMsa parivrAjakAcArya, sometimes we think it would be more appropriate to address them as 108 kuTIcaka bahUdaka, or those who have 108 houses around the world, and who can wander to any one of them and get good meals and a soft place to sleep.
108 could also stand for the suggested donation in $ for a paramahamsa parivrajakacarya
Tamal Baran das - Fri, 08 Nov 2002 04:42:34 +0530
I remember that some leading B.G. Narasingha Maharaja disciples have said that only sannyasis can initiate after their Guru will leave this world, since they are only active preachers.In their Math grihastas are not the persons which are actually fit to initiate,because they are connected to family and wordly things.Seriously,i don't understand that kind of philosophy,since i never ever have heard of that in any Math.
In Iskcon anyways,most of sannyasis don't know even what is the color of their dress,so they still color their clothing in red and some other colors other than saffron.
Madhava - Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:51:18 +0530
Tamal Ji,
Are you back in the West already?
nitai - Fri, 08 Nov 2002 20:04:25 +0530
Greetings All,
Jaya Radhe Syam Gaur!
There is one quote on Sannyasa (and the other asramas) that I want to share with you. It is from the Baudhayana-dharma-sutra (2nd cent. BCE?). It reveals an interesting early brahmanic perspective on sannyasa (2.11.27-28):
There is, however, only a single order of life, the teachers maintain, because no offspring is produced in the others.
With respect to the above they cite this: 'There was once a demon named Kapila, son of Prahlada. It was he who created these divisions in his campaign against the gods. No wise man should pay any heed to them.'
Interesting. The asramas are a demonic plan to destroy the gods. Here again the main ideal of Vedic culture comes out: having offspring. Later, it seems, a kind of compromise was struck whereby after a man has offspring, he is free to take sannyasa which in this context means disappear into the woods and shut his mouth. Thus, we have the famous doctrine from the later dharma sutras and the Manu-samhita about the three debts that Hindus, specifically brahmanas, are born with. Baudhayana, for instance (2.11.33):
There are innumerable texts that refer to the debts that people incur, such as: 'Through offspring, O Fire, may we obtain immortality (RV 5.4.10; TS 1.4.46.1); and 'At his very birth, a Brahmin is born with a triple debt --- of studentship to the seers, of sacrifice to the gods, and of offspring to the ancestors' (TS 6.3.10.5).
This is, of course, echoed by the Manu-samhita much later (6.35-36):
When he has paid the three debts, let him apply his mind to (the attainment of) final liberation; he who seeks it without having paid (his debts) sinks downwards.
Having studied the Vedas in accordance with the rule, having begat sons according to the sacred law, and having offered sacrifices according to his ability, he may direct his mind to (the attainment) of final liberation.
Note here that it is not said that after paying his debts one should turn his mind to teaching. Sannyasa has a specific purpose: gaining liberation, not being tied down with thousands of disciples.
How does this relate to the Gaudiya institution of bhekh or becoming a babaji? A baba is a renunciant, but not a sannyasi. I suspect that the Caitanya tradition shied away from sannyasa and developed this other form of renunciation precisely because of the deep-rooted connection sannyasa has with moksa. Moksa in the Caitanya tradition has been demoted to second highest purusartha and preman was placed above it. True, Caitanya himself took sannyasa, but he was always apologizing for it and he never recommended that any of his followers take it. As a baba, one is beyond the pale of social expectations. The slate is wiped clean. One is free to pursue one's worship of Radha and Krsna unfettered by social identifications. As a sannyasi one is still part of the system and that brings with it all the burdens of social expectations which by the 16th century had strayed far from the original sannyasa we see reflected in these old dharma-sutras. In many ways the babaji institution looks like a revival of the old sannyasa with the difference that it is centered around always remembering Radha and Krsna and never forgetting them. That, too, is not meant to be a teaching institution. If a teacher pops up here or there, that is fine, but the main function is bhajan.
Enough for today.
ys
Nitai Das
Tamal Baran das - Sat, 09 Nov 2002 07:28:33 +0530
QUOTE(Madhava @ Nov. 08 2002,05:21)
Tamal Ji,
Are you back in the West already?
I came before a few days.We are still coping with european cold and my little son is at the moment a bit sick.He unfortunately didn't want to take any tablets for malaria.That is why i still did not contact everybody.Thank you for caring and asking.Radhapada and you have many greetings from gurubrothers and in a first place blessings from Baba for both of you.
Radhapada - Sat, 09 Nov 2002 16:45:59 +0530
QUOTE
In many ways the babaji institution looks like a revival of the old sannyasa with the difference that it is centered around always remembering Radha and Krsna and never forgetting them.
An excellent point.
Is it correct then that the institution of formal acceptance of sannyas was something developed with Shankara Acarya, or even earlier with the Buddhist?
Where does the notion originate that sannyas is only for brahmanas? Dhrtarastra, a ksatriya, seemed to have taken to sannyas of some form in the first book of the Bhagavata. Also the Pandavas, as well as Bharata Maharaja.
Radhapada - Sat, 09 Nov 2002 16:48:54 +0530
QUOTE
greetings from gurubrothers and in a first place blessings from Baba for both of you.
Thanks for the news.
Tamal Baran das - Sat, 09 Nov 2002 19:23:38 +0530
*Quote* (Radhapada @ Nov. 09 2002,05:18)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Thanks for the news.
If it was not for you, and some other devotees, i will never make it.So,thank you again sincerely Radhapada das and Madhavaji.
Tamal Baran das - Sat, 09 Nov 2002 20:29:24 +0530
I have recently got this article written by B.G. Narasingha Maharaja.I have thought it may be interesting for other devotees on the website to critically look at this article, since it is somehow related to the topic,but written from the side of Gaudiya Matha/Iskcon.Any thoughts?Ok, here it is:
Babaji Sannyasa
by
Swami B.G. Narasingha
Devotee: On this past Radhastami you gave babaji-sannyasa (initiation) to a disciple of one of your Godbrothers (Srila Turya dasa Prabhu Mahasaya). But as per my understanding the babaji-sannyasa is not authorized in the disciplic succession of your Guru Maharaja (A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada). So why have you done something so unprecedented as this?
Swami Narasingha: Actually the precedence is there. My Guru Maharaja gave babaji-vesa (babaji-sannyasa) to two of his disciples (each on separate occasions). Normally Srila Prabhupada gave tridandi-sannyasa to his disciples for the purpose of preaching work, but on two occasions he gave babaji-sannyasa. This was also the standard of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Generally tridandi-sannyasa was given to the majority of disciples who were fit for renunciation and for preaching work. In a few cases the babaji-sannyasa was given. Sarasvati Thakura told that babaji-vesa is the dress of the paramahamsas, the top-most class of Vaisnavas. He told that it is better to take the dress of a tridandi-sannyasi and serve the higher Vaisnavas, rather than to imitate the dress of the higher Vaisnavas and thus become a hypocrite. But on occasion he did award babaji-vesa.
Our Guru Maharaja gave babaji-sannyasa to his disciples only under special circumstances. It so happened that these disciples of our Guru Maharaja thought that they would die and leave the world very soon due to some incurable disease. So they were given babaji-sannyasa and instructed to absorb themselves in chanting of the Holy Name of Krsna.
Devotee: But those devotees were given babaji-sannyasa under very special circumstances. Those devotees thought that they would die soon!
Swami Narasingha: Yes, they were young men and they thought that they might die soon. But when you pass fifty years of age you should no longer think that you 'might die soon', you should know it for a fact! After fifty, death is certain! And at that stage of life every man should prepare himself for the next life by taking sannyasa - pancasordhvam vanam vrajet. After fifty years of age (pancasordhvam) one should go to the forest (vanam). This must be done. It is obligatory (vrajet). This is the injunction of the sastra. Either tridandi-sannyasa or babaji-sannyasa, the difference is very small but in any case one must get out of the family attachment after fifty years of age.
My Guru Maharaja had the following to say about the matter. "Ultimate goal of life is to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Because in your busy life, you have very little time; therefore after grhastha life, fifty years, up to, not more than that, pancasordhvam vanam vrajet, then you must retire. It doesn't matter whether you have finished your duty or not. It doesn't matter. You must retire. And then, after being trained for some time, being retired from the family life, living secluded life-not exactly secluded, but detached from family life-let the elderly sons, daughters, they can take care of the family, and the husband, wife, they travel in different places of pilgrimage. Again they come for some time, but without any attachment, as guest in the house of his son. In this way, when he is trained up, then he says to the wife, "Now you live with your sons. They will take care of you. I am taking sannyasa."
"So everyone has to take sannyasa. It is not that a particular man, simply Caitanya Mahaprabhu has to take sannyasa. No. That is obligation. You must. In Buddha philosophy, everyone has to take sannyasa and live as a sannyasi for some years. That is their duty. So Maharaja Yudhisthira prepared himself for becoming sannyasi. Sannyasi means renounced. No more family responsibility or any responsibility. Simply to become pure devotee of the Lord, that is sannyasa."
"Pancasordhvam vanam vrajet. You show your all nonsense ability up to fifty years. Don't go more than that. Because you are rascal, you will never be able to do anything, but jump like monkey up to fifty years, not more than that. Monkey jumping may be continued up to fifty years. Then retire. They will continue monkey jumping up to the last point of death."
There are two types renunciation in Gaudiya Vaisnavism; gosthi-anandi and bhajan-anandi. Both these classes are 'anandi' that is they take pleasure in seeking the perfection of life. The gosthi-anandi class (the tridandi-sannyasis) takes to the path of preaching Krsna-nama to achieve perfection while the bhajan-anandi class takes to the path of absorbing themselves in the chanting of Krsna-nama. Some are suited for one path while others are suited for the other. In the end both these classes of devotees arrive at the same destination, Krsna-prema.
The tridandi-sannyasis are in the public eye and they are expected to lead the assembly of devotees in all manners of devotional service. Especially they are to defend the dignity of the devotional school by defeating all opposing philosophical opinions. For this the tridandi-sannyasi accepts some pratistha or position in the service of the Supreme Lord. The babajis however avoid all types of position and simply instruct others by their example of being absorbed in humble service and Krsna-nama.
In many ways the tridandi-sannyasi and the babaji-sannyasi share the same dharma. Both are to live their life free from the association of women, both are to eat, sleep, and dress simply, both are to chant Krsna-nama, both study the Vaisnava sastra, and most importantly both are to serve the lotus feet of Guru and Krsna. This is the way to cross over the ocean of material existence.
etam sa astaya paratma-nistham
adhyasitam purvatamair maharsibhih
aham tarisyami duranta-param
tamo mukundangri-nisevayaiva
"I shall cross over the ocean of material existence, which is extremely difficult to cross by becoming fixed in serving the lotus feet of Mukunda and by taking complete shelter of Him. This is approved by the previous great saints and sages who were fixed in devotion to the Supreme Lord." (Bhag.11.23.57)
A man should take sannyasa with only one intention and that is to dedicate his full energy to serve Guru and Krsna. At the time of taking sannyasa both the tridandi-sannyasi and the babaji-sannyasi receive the same mantra, gopi-bhava mantra. This mantra is sometimes called the raga-marga mantra and this gives one entrance into the service of Sri Sri Radha Krsna in the mood of the residents of Vraja. In this way there is practically no difference between the tridandi-sannyasi and the babaji-sannyasi.
Another consideration as to what path of renunciation one will take may largely depend upon one's nature and capability. Those who have got more energy, who are comfortable with being in the forefront of an assembly etc may find that they are more suited for tridandi-sannyasa, while those with a less assertive nature, who do not feel confident leading the Vaisnava assembly may find that they are more suited for babaji-sannyasa. In any case, after the age of fifty a man must seriously make plans to accept the renounced order of life.
Devotee: Since the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta is there any other precedence for babaji-sannyasa in our parampara?
Swami Narasingha: Yes. As we know it Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja initiated some twenty or so babaji-sanyasis and to my knowledge Srila Bhakti Pramoda Puri Gosvami Maharaja initiated many more babaji-sannyasis than that. I think also that in other branches of the Gaudiya Matha you will find that babaji-sannyasa is also there.
So either you accept tridandi-sannyasa or you accept babaji-sannyasa but the point is that every man after the age of fifty must prepare for the next life by accepting sannyasa. That is compulsory.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Radhapada - Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:21:38 +0530
Jagat - Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:22:24 +0530
Interesting, informative and amusing posts.
Madhava - Sat, 09 Nov 2002 22:56:09 +0530
QUOTE
After fifty years of age (pancasordhvam) one should go to the forest (vanam). This must be done. It is obligatory (vrajet). This is the injunction of the sastra. Either tridandi-sannyasa or babaji-sannyasa, the difference is very small but in any case one must get out of the family attachment after fifty years of age.
Though I know of the giving of babaji-vesha in the Gaudiya Matha, I am under the impression that it was switched over to giving saffron sannyasi vesha for the very reason of the babajis' bad reputation (as they present it). Hence I have a hard time understanding the need for two kinds of tyagis. Couldn't they just have trained up a class of bona fide babajis instead? Or is it so that in twenty-thirty years the opinion of the society was so much so corrected in regards to the Gaudiya tradition that babaji vesa could again be given en masse? How strange.
Jagat - Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:14:28 +0530
In Bhajana-rahasya (2.44), Bhaktivinoda Thakur cites the following verses from Hari-bhakti-vilasa (20.382-4, 370, 379-80) describing the activities of an exclusive (ekanti) devotee. This is a description of the Vaishnava sannyasi.
evam ekAntinAM prAyaH kIrtanaM smaraNaM prabhoH
kurvatAM parama-prItyA kRtyam anyan na rocate
bhAvena kenacit preSTha-zrI-mUrter aGghri-sevane
syAd icchaiSAM sva-mantreNa sva-rasenaiva tad-vidhiH
vihiteSv eva nityeSu pravartante svayaM hi te Exclusive devotees engage in practically nothing other than chanting the Holy Name and remembering Krishna’s pastimes. Doing this with supreme love, they have no taste for any other activity. They may serve their beloved deities according to their particular mood. They do so according to their desire, using their personal mantra and setting the rules for this worship according to their personal taste. The exclusive devotee spontaneously engages in his daily prescribed duties.
sarva-tyAge’py aheyAyAH sarvAnartha-bhuvaz ca te
kuryuH pratiSThA-viSThAyA yatnam asparzane varamThough one may be able to give up everything, the desire for personal prestige is the hardest thing to give up. Since it is the source of all anarthas, one should be carefully to keep as far from it as he would from stool.
prabhAte cArdha-rAtre ce madhyAhne diva-sankSaye
kIrtayanti hariM ye vai na teSAm anya-sAdhanamThe single-minded devotee who chants the Holy Names of the Lord in the morning, in the middle of night, at noon and at the end of the day, has absolutely no need for any other spiritual practice.
nitai - Sun, 24 Nov 2002 05:32:46 +0530
I have argued before in this forum that a good sannyasi should be seen, but not heard. That is, sannyasa is not a teaching asrama. It is a time for whole hearted concentration on the spiritual goal. To support that I cited several passages from the dharma-sutras. As Jagat has pointed out in his most recent post, citing verses from the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, it is not necessary to take any form of renunciation to do this. There is not mention of sannyasa in any of those verses. One is renunced by virtue of one's full absorption in reciting the Holy Names. There is no doubt, however, that as a renunciant it is easier to devote one's whole time to hari-nama and other bhakti-centered activities.
Lest anyone think that the dharma-sutras say one thing and the Bhagavata says another, here are some verses from the Bhagavata that say substantially the same things as the dharma-sutras. In the 7th canto chapter 13 it is said about the sannyasi:
(7) He should not be attached to sastras dealing with topics other than atman.. Nor should he try to maintain himself by following any profession. He shuld avoid all forms of disputation. He should not persistently adhere to any party.
(8) He should not attract students. Nor should he study numerous books. He should not undertake the exposition of some sacred text. Not should he take up the establishment of any institution or monastery.
Hmmm. This does not fit very well with what the GM sannyasis do. In the 11th Canto, Chapter 18 is says of the sannyasi:
(17) Silence, renunciation of acts, and control of breath; these are the internal controls of speech, body and mind. Dear Uddhava! He who does not have such controls is no sannyasi as one does not make a sannyasi with a bamboo staff.
and
(18) With his senses and mind under control and perfectly unattached, he should wander all over the world without a companion, indulging in the recreation and bliss of his soul. Engrossed in his self, he should view all with an equal eye.
Again this doesn't sound like these GM sannyasis.
Renunciation is not just to be practiced in the sannyasa order, however. It is also for householders. In a rather surprising and controversial statement the author of the Bhagavata says in the 7th Canto, chapter 14 regarding the householder:
(11) He should duly share his objects of enjoyment with all down to the dogs, sinners, and people belonging to the lowest strata of society. He should allow his wife who he ardently claims as his own to receive guests.
I think a more faithful translation of this last injunction is that a householder "should share his one (or only) wife with other men." Sounds rather like Eskimo custom to me. It brings to mind that passage of the Mahabharata that describes old marriage customs in which a wife was her own mistress and only owed her fertile period to her husband. Apart from that she was free to "receive" other men and enjoy with them. This is found in Book 1, Chapter 113 of the great epic. Whatever the sources of the idea, in the context of the Bhagavata it is obviously meant to help householders cultivate detachment.
So renunciation is not only for the sannyasi. Moreover, teaching and establishing big institutions, or even small ones for that matter, is not for sannyasis. Nor are they meant to be gurus.
Who is teaching to be done by then? It is to be done by the householders. That is why I think it is time that we householders stop letting the bamboozelers do our job for us. How about it. It is time for us householders to become the teachers and the gurus of the Caitanya tradition. Those of us who have received proper initiation from one of the authentic lineages should be willing to pass that on to others. How about it, Jagat? Why not pass on those lovely mantra that you received from Lalita Prasad Thakur? Radhapada? There may be others out there, too, with authentic initiations who are qualified to initiate. Why wait until one is a renunciant? That is not what renunciation is for. We have to shed this wrong idea that a guru should be a sannyasi or even a baba. One does not have to be a siddha to be a good guru, either. One merely has to be a faithful follower of the tradition, male or female, who is properly initiated.
iti
Nitai Das
Madhava - Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:59:55 +0530
Without any further comments on Nitai's interesting post which speaks for itself, I am offering a couple of verses more in the same vein, quoted from my review of Narayan Maharaja's essay on Gaudiya Vaishnavism and Sannyasa.
NOTE 3. In the second section of this essay (pages 15-16) , the author (NM) states:“Herein the point worthy of our consideration is that the instructions of the vedas, upanisads, puranas and smrtis are applicable at all times (sarvakalika). Sannyasa is forbidden in the strength of only one verse from Brahma Vaivarta Purana, whereas all the aforementioned authentic scriptures unanimously endorse sannyasa and saffron cloth for qualified persons in every yuga.”
The assertion that the instructions of the Vedic literatures are applicable at all times is questionable in the light of the very verse mentioned herein, a verse from Brahma Vaivarta Purana, which places a definite restriction on what can not be done during the age of Kali. Additionally, it is common knowledge that in the Vedic literatures, there are heaps of specific rules, restrictions and recommendations for the application of dharma during a particular yuga, which are not well applicable during the others.
The author has also stated that “all the aforementioned authentic scriptures unanimously endorse sannyasa and saffron cloth for qualified persons in every yuga.”
After a scrutinizing study of the aforementioned statements from the authentic scriptures, we will note that there are two references which endorse sannyasa in every yuga. The references are given below:paduke capi grhniyatkuryannanthasya sangraham
etani tasya lingani yateh proktani sarvada
(Haritasmrti 6.8)
“‘To banish the effects of coldness one should accept a ragged cloth and wooden sandals. One should not collect any other items. These are said to be the signs of a sannyasi in all periods of time (four yugas).’”
To begin with, the words “in all periods of time” and “four yugas” have been added in the translation to give the word “sarvada” (always) a very particular sense, which is not necessarily the intent of the verse.
Secondly, we have observed that the sannyasis of the modern age have accepted so many items besides a ragged cloth and wooden sandals, as recommended by the verse quoted by the author. Ardha-kukkuti-nyaya is not acceptable among honest practitioners of spiritual life. If this statement is indeed applicable at all times (sarvada), then the modern sannyasis should at once renounce all items besides those approved by this authentic scripture.
Moreover, if all the vedic injunctions were applicable at all times, then we would expect that the following instructions of Sri Krishna and Narada Rsi in the Bhagavata (11th skandha, chapters 17-18 and 7th skandha, chapters 12-13) were also followed by the brahmacaris and sannyasis of the Gaudiya Matha.mekhalajina-dandaksa-brahma-sutra-kamandalun
jatilo 'dhauta-dad-vaso 'rakta-pithah kusan dadhat
snana-bhojana-homesu japoccare ca vag-yatah
na cchindyan nakha-romani kaksopastha-gatany api
“He (brahmacari) should wear a belt and garments made of deerskin. He should carry a rod and a kamandalu in his hand, a sacred thread over his shoulder, and also keep kusa-grass with him. He should not wash his teeth or clothes, and he should allow his hair to be matted into locks. He should also not accept a comfortable seat. He should remain silent while bathing, while eating, while participating in sacrifices, while chanting mantras and while passing stool or urine. He should not cut his nails or hairs, including the armpits and his pubic hair.”
kalpas tv evam parivrajya deha-matravasesitah
gramaika-ratra-vidhina nirapeksas caren mahim
bibhryad yady asau vasah kaupinacchadanam param
“In this way, he (sannyasi) should move about on the earth and wander from village to village, spending only one night at one place, without dependence on any material thing. He should wear a mere loincloth as his garment.”
The injunction for a sannyasi to wander here and there without depending on material facilities has also been confirmed in a verse quoted earlier (page 8) by the author from Visnu Smrti (4.2):viraktah sarvakamesu parivrajyam sabhasrayet
ekaki vicarennityam tyaktva sarvaparigraham
“One who is detached from all types of worldly desires should accept sannyasa. After accepting sannyasa, he should travel alone and he should maintain his life by whatever is available in the way of alms without even begging.”
Nevertheless, we have observed that the modern sannyasis do not travel alone. On the contrary, they travel with huge flocks of followers who supply them with all necessary and unnecessary facilities of life. In this connection, it is noteworthy to remember how the renounced disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati acted after his departure. In the words of Bhaktivedanta Swami (commentary on Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila, 12.8):“Despite the spiritual master's order to form a governing body and execute the missionary activities of the Gaudiya Matha, the two unauthorized factions began litigation that is still going on after forty years with no decision. ... The two parties, busy dividing the material assets of the Gaudiya Matha institution, stopped the preaching work. ... The members of the self-appointed acarya's party who occupied the property of the Gaudiya Matha are satisfied, but they could make no progress in preaching.”
In other words, there was big quarrel over position and assets, up to the point of people’s attempting to kill each other. Phalena phala-karanam anumiyate – one may judge the nature of the cause of the fruit by observing the fruit itself.
The second verse quoted by the author is now presented:avadhutasramo devi kalau sannyasa ucyate
vidhina yena karttavyastam sarvan srnu sampraptam
brahmajnane samutpanne virate sarva karmani
adhyatmavidya nipunah sannyasasramamasryayet
brahma ksatriyo vaisyah sudrah samanya eva ca
kulavadhuta samskare pancanamadhikarita
vipranamitaresanca varnanam prabale kalau
ubhayatrasrame devi! sarvesamadhikarita
(Mahanirvana Tantra 8th Ullasa)
“‘O Devi! In Kali Yuga the avadhuta-asrama is called sannyasa. Now hear from me about the regulations governing this asrama. One who is expert in the transcendental science of bhagavat-tattva, who is detached from all kinds of fruitive activities and in whom brahma-jnana has awakened, should accept the renounced order of life, sannyasa. Five categories of people, namely brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas, sudras and common people from outside the social orders, can be qualified in the matter of undergoing this sannyasa-samskara. Moreover, even when the influence of Kali is powerful, vipras and also members of the other social orders have the right to accept sannyasa.’”
First of all, we should be aware of the authority of this scripture. Mahanirvana Tantra is a recent Sakta-Agama, which has little or nothing to do with any authentic Vaisnava-practices. The author’s expression “one who is expert in the transcendental science of bhagavat-tattva” certainly is not one expressed in the original text. Rather, in the following paragraphs, after entering the renounced order, the sannyasi is advised to chant 100 times the mantra, “Hring, let us worship the Three-eyed One whose fame is fragrant, the Augmenter of increase.”
The author has also omitted the following sentence (8.224) from the middle of the paragraph under discussion: “If, however, in order to adopt the life of a wandering mendicant, one abandons an old mother or father, infant children and a devoted wife, or helpless dependents, one goes to hell.” Needless to say, this is against the concept of the Bhagavata (11.5.41). In this context it is needless to delve further into the details of this scripture dedicated to the tantric worship of Devi and Bhairava. The author calls Mahanirvana Tantra an “authentic scripture”.
Jagat - Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:10:23 +0530
Jiva's commentary to 7.13.8 (in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu): "Although these verses are spoken specifically as instructions for sannyasis, they are to be applied by all Vaishnavas who are cultivating detachment. Not taking too many disciples refers specifically to making unqualified disciples, for it has been seen that Narada and others did take many disciples. Should no one do so, then the tradition will die out. Furthermore, if one does not take any students, this is a kind of miserliness with one’s learning. Therefore this injunction means that one should not make many unqualified disciples simply to increase the numbers of one’s sectarian group. If these disciples are not truly attracted to devotional service, then what is the point? The same argument applies to ambitious projects, etc."
Radhapada - Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:56:19 +0530
I think it is a wonderful idea of spreading the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition to the souls of this western part of the world by having experienced devotees give diksa to eligible candidates. How else will people be enabled to begin bhakti practice if they don't have diksa? It is truely sad to see so many people waste their human form of lives not serving Sri Radha-Krsna. I know that for some people the prospect of going to India to seek a Guru is quite daunting. But if someone was nearby to give them guidence and encouragement all the way through it is much more beneficial than to send someone to India for a few weeks and do a crash course in bhajan and come back with little or no sanga. Yes, Jagat, Nitai, Minaketana, Adwaita, the souls are crying in the ocean of material suffering.
To Nitai, as far as myself is concerned...I have to consult with my consciousness and Guru.
Som - Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:28:05 +0530
Jai Radhe Shyam,
I read a verse in which Krishna gives the definition of sannyasa:
anasritah karma-phalam
karyam karma karoti yah
sa sannyasi ca yogi ca
na niragnir na cakriyah
[BG 6.1]
The Blessed Lord said: One who is unattached to the fruits of his work and who works as he is obligated is in the renounced order of life, and he is the true mystic: not he who lights no fire and performs no work.
So, how can we justify the sannyasis who renounce all work? Is it because that they are so much absorbed in smaranam that they can't do anything else?
Hari Hari!
Madhava - Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:11:35 +0530
I am trying to export the guru-conversation to another thread to give it full attention and to leave the sannyasa-theme in this thread. Click here.
Madhava - Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:16:46 +0530
QUOTE(Som @ Nov. 25 2002,02:58)
Jai Radhe Shyam,
I read a verse in which Krishna gives the definition of sannyasa:
anasritah karma-phalam
karyam karma karoti yah
sa sannyasi ca yogi ca
na niragnir na cakriyah
[BG 6.1]
The Blessed Lord said: One who is unattached to the fruits of his work and who works as he is obligated is in the renounced order of life, and he is the true mystic: not he who lights no fire and performs no work.
So, how can we justify the sannyasis who renounce all work? Is it because that they are so much absorbed in smaranam that they can't do anything else?
Hari Hari!
He is the renouncer who is detached from this world, not he who externally renounces items of enjoyment.
How can we justify the sannyasis who renounce all work? We can't. Each living entity is bound to work in this world as long as they are embodied. Smaranam and other items of bhakti are also a form of action, though spiritually oriented in nature.
Hence the one trying to cease from action is not the true renouncer of everything (sannyasi), but rather he is, who is detached from the results of his deeds.
Som - Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:52:12 +0530
QUOTE
How can we justify the sannyasis who renounce all work? We can't.
But, the Gosvamis of Vrindavan did renounce everything. Is'nt it?
QUOTE
Smaranam and other items of bhakti are also a form of action, though spiritually oriented in nature.
But, is'nt there a lot of difference between the normal actions and smaranam etc. Does the activities of bhakti produce any result if it is done without any cause...
Got one more thought, that if the normal activities are done without "nir maana mohaa" then can they be equated with the activities of bhakti? I don't think so?
What are your views?
Jai Gandharvika Giridhari!
Madhava - Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:45:47 +0530
QUOTE
But, the Gosvamis of Vrindavan did renounce everything. Is'nt it?
No, not everything. There is a famous couplet of verses in Rupa's Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu (1.2.255–256) discussing the subject matter of appropriate renunciation.
anAsaktasya viSayAn
yathArham upayuJjataH
nirbandhaH kRSNa-sambandhe
yuktaM vairAgyam ucyate
“Being detached from objects of enjoyment while using them in an appropriate way in relationship with Krishna is known as befitting renunciation.”
prApaJcikatayA buddhyA
hari-sambandhi-vastunaH
mumukSubhiH parityAgo
vairAgyaM phalgu kathyate
“The rejection of objects with a relationship to Hari by a seeker of mukti, who considers them worldly objects, is known as worthless renunciation.”
Each person in this world must renounce something to gain something. Appropriate adoption of items and deeds depends on the situation of the individual. For a householder, adopting a befitting work, doing which he can remain peaceful in mind and rejoice in his worship is appropriate renunciation. For the one who has left the society, appropriate renunciation is another thing.
To give an example, Raghunatha Das and Jiva purchased the land around Radha Kund and excavated the Kund for the joy of all pilgrims. There are numerous documents kept in the Vrindavan Research Institute in this regard, including the testament of Raghunatha Das transferring the possession of the land to Jiva, documents from local rulers given to the Gosvamis about the land, and so forth. Thus not all acts are to be renounced, renunciation should be appropriate and serve the purpose of delighting Hari.
QUOTE
But, is'nt there a lot of difference between the normal actions and smaranam etc. Does the activities of bhakti produce any result if it is done without any cause...
No action is without a cause. Each action is the effect of a particular cause, namely the desire of an individual. In proportion to the purity of desire, each activity yields a materially or spiritually conducive result. For a person desirous of followers and worship, chanting the holy name brings about an appropriate result in the form of people who admire his chanting. For a person desirous of prema-bhakti, chanting the holy name awakens prema-bhakti in the heart.
QUOTE
Got one more thought, that if the normal activities are done without "nir maana mohaa" then can they be equated with the activities of bhakti? I don't think so?
Action which is worldly in nature but done without a desire to enjoy the fruits of the activity, and of which the fruit is offered in the service of Bhagavan in the end, is known as aropa-siddha bhakti, or activities which attain perfection through superimposition of bhakti upon its result. However, we are to aspire for action which is known as svarupa-siddha bhakti, or acts in which devotion resides by constitution, and which are always bhakti regardless of the circumstances and the result. The nine (according to Prahlad) and the five (according to Caitanya) potent methods of bhakti are brilliant examples of this.
Som - Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:27:03 +0530
QUOTE
anAsaktasya viSayAn
yathArham upayuJjataH
nirbandhaH kRSNa-sambandhe
yuktaM vairAgyam ucyate
“Being detached from objects of enjoyment while using them in an appropriate way in relationship with Krishna is known as befitting renunciation.”
I agree with this fully. But, a person can take advantage of yukta vairagya as well. Is'nt it? Because the mind can mislead sometimes and a person might be enjoying something in relation to Krishna and then he gets used to that enjoyment and then terms it as Yukta Vairagya! Is'nt this a drawback of Yukta Vairagya?
QUOTE
In proportion to the purity of desire, each activity yields a materially or spiritually conducive result.
Can the spiritual activities be considered as a fried seed as it does'nt produce any material result? I suppose it is more dependent on the motive with which a person is practising it. Is'nt it?
QUOTE
For a person desirous of prema-bhakti, chanting the holy name awakens prema-bhakti in the heart.
na dhanam na janam na sundarim kavitam
na jagadisha kamaye
mama janma janamana isvare bhavatad
bhaktir ahaituki tvayi!
Jai Sachinandana!
QUOTE
Action which is worldly in nature but done without a desire to enjoy the fruits of the activity, and of which the fruit is offered in the service of Bhagavan in the end, is known as aropa-siddha bhakti, or activities which attain perfection through superimposition of bhakti upon its result. However, we are to aspire for action which is known as svarupa-siddha bhakti, or acts in which devotion resides by constitution, and which are always bhakti regardless of the circumstances and the result.
Thanks very much for this information. Is there any verse explaining this?
Jai Radha Madhav!
Madhava - Fri, 29 Nov 2002 04:20:50 +0530
QUOTE
But, a person can take advantage of yukta vairagya as well. Is'nt it? Because the mind can mislead sometimes and a person might be enjoying something in relation to Krishna and then he gets used to that enjoyment and then terms it as Yukta Vairagya! Is'nt this a drawback of Yukta Vairagya?
A person can go wrong both ways, neither of which is beneficial. The solution for the problem of material life is a change in attitude, whether renounced or not.
People who confuse jnana-mishra-bhakti with the essence of bhakti and aspire for knowledge and renunciation have developed a misconception in regards to a befitting life in this world. Renunciation is not the means to an end on the path of bhakti. Renunciation, being the path of jnana, generally associated with ascetics, leads to a mukti in which individual identity is forgotten. Enjoyment, being the path of karma, generally associated with householders, prolongs the bondage of samsara. Neither of the two options are a choice for the bhakta. Rather, without a sense of false identification, the bhakta is to accept whatever comes on its own accord, going about with his practice of devotion. Sri Bhagavan Himself advised Prahlad (Bhagavata 7.10.13):
bhogena puNyaM kuzalena pApaM
kalevaraM kAla-javena hitvA
kIrtiM vizuddhAM sura-loka-gItAM
vitAya mAm eSyasi mukta-bandhaH
"Through enjoyment you will overcome the past punya (pious deeds), and through benevolence you will overcome the past papa (sinful deeds), giving up your body in due course of time. Your virtuous glory will be sung in the planets of the gods, and free from bondage, you will come to me."
Both renunciation and enjoyment will prove to be obstacles on the path of bhakti if one becomes absorbed in thoughts of them.
QUOTE
Thanks very much for this information. Is there any verse explaining this [aropa-siddha bhakti and svarupa-siddha bhakti]?
There are several chapters dedicated to explaining aropa-siddha bhakti, sanga-siddha bhakti and svarupa-siddha bhakti in Jiva Gosvami's Bhakti Sandarbha, from anuccheda 217 onwards. I will return to the theme later on with a summary study of these chapters. Stay tuned.
