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Gaudiya Discussions Archive » PHILOSOPHY AND THEOLOGY
Discussions on the doctrines of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Please place practical questions under the Miscellaneous forum and set this aside for the more theoretical side of it.

Karma - can it be shared and/or transferred



Kamala - Sat, 28 May 2005 03:21:31 +0530
rAjJi cAmAtyajA doSAH patnI-pApaM sva-bhartari |
tathA ziSyArjitaM pApaM guruH prApnoti nizcitam || HBV 1.77

"The faults of the counselor fall on the king, and the sins of a wife fall on her husband. In the same way a spiritual master attains the sins of his disciple. That is certain."


What do people think about this verse? Some questions and thoughts I have are:

Does it apply to both good & bad karma?
That is, does good karma also flow from a counselor to his king, from a wife to her husband, from a disciple to their guru?

Does it operate in reverse?
I assume it does not operate in reverse, as it would be incongruous to suggest that the sins of a spiritual master would be inflicted on the disciple (for instance if the guru secretly misbehaved). It seems to imply the bad acts of a subordinate negatively impact their superior - perhaps this is because a failure by a king, husband or guru to properly supervise or guide their subordinate is culpable.

How can karma be transferred by material affiliations?
I find it hard to understand how karma can be transferred merely on the basis of the existence of particular relationships. It seems more in line with the general thrust of Vaisnava siddhanta (namely in the Bhagavad Gita) to assert that each individual is responsible for their own actions.

Is the guru-disciple relationship just another dominant-subordinate pattern of material affiliation?
The karmic transfers in the guru-disciple case could be justified as transcending normal karmic rules because the guru-disciple relationship aims at transcendence itself. But their analogy in this verse with other material relationships (king-counsellor, husband-wife) troubles me. Why are these three all put in the same category? For me it undermines the transcendental basis of the guru-disciple relationship by comparing it with these other vitiated "mundane" relationships. Or, it elevates these other relationships by presenting them as analogies to the guru-disciple relationship - which also troubles me!

Any thoughts? unsure.gif (apart from "Get off the mental platform! rolleyes.gif )
Advaitadas - Sat, 28 May 2005 09:49:33 +0530
Get off that mental platform! biggrin.gif

QUOTE
How can karma be transferred by material affiliations?
I find it hard to understand how karma can be transferred merely on the basis of the existence of particular relationships. It seems more in line with the general thrust of Vaisnava siddhanta (namely in the Bhagavad Gita) to assert that each individual is responsible for their own actions.


It is simply a relationship of responsibility. The Guru takes responsibility over the sisya. Compare it with parental responsibility - if your child breaks a window somewhere the parent, you, will have to pay for it, though you yourself did not break the window. The sisya has surrendered to the Guru at the time of initiation - diksa kale bhakta kore atma samarpana (CC, Antya 4) so from then onwards the Guru is responsible. However, as we know from the Bhagavata, the King takes 1/6 part of the citizens' karma and it is said so about the Guru too. Anyway, this is another matter.....