May I please have some advice? -

Hari!

I dont fully subscribe to the saraswata camp, however on Wed. I attend an iskcon Nama Hatta w/ my wife so we can associate w/ devotees. When classs discussion starts I leave the Temple Room and help with the prasadam in the kitchen to avoid hearing something that I dont agree with. So far this system has worked well for a few years and we are happy to associate w/ devotees, regardless of iskcon and what not. Dayal Nitai from Run Devil Run and other 'Krsnacore' bands is our bhramin and owns the house where the temple room is at and he is cool with me. He knows I want nothing to do with the baggage that comes with SP`s movement (bogus gurus`s ect.) and yet knows we like some association so he never troubles us. I also maintain his website, design flyers, ect..

Last month a bhakta comes up to me and says 'do you want to do vending at a popular hippy spot for live concerts?'. I told him that I have been going to this spot and vending/distribution different traditionl books and what not for over 10 years and he got p`d and left class.

Then he sends me offensive words via email and I take it to the Bhramin and he says he will assign Tony something else to do since I already have personal arrangements at this particular venue in question. It took me 10 years to be accepted as the 'hippy friendly Krishna devotee' that sells the best temple incense and some books (cookies too). Before me, they hated the Krishans because they would leave a mess all over the grounds and actually bother people for books so Im kinds proud that I can at least get in and be low key about it, make a quick buck, talk about Krishna and do some kirtan on stage between bands.

Fast foreward to yesterday--->

I made the decision to go to school all summer which I normally dont do but it is the only time I can take the advanced iNet classes this year so I write Tony back and he responds with offensive words. He took a picture of me from my site doing abishek for Lord Chaitanya and replaced it w/ a reefer plant, said Im a pothead and that that my service sucks and the usual-'you dont know who I am stuff' as if he were some big guru or something.



I hear that after the Bhramin talked to him last week and said that I will continue the vending that he called everyone in our group (100+) and complained about me and then somehow came up w/ this reefer thing.

I beg the Vaisnavas here for some suggestions as to what to do because I`m SURE many have come across very simillar devotees that are always uptight and like to make a stink about your service because they personally feel empowered by SP or something of that nature.

My wife and I really enjoy going to the classes on Wed. and normally everyone is very respectfull but I dont see anymore peace and quiet if this sort of thing is going to be the norm. Tony has been in the group longer than myself however I never see him do anything and yet I spend hundreds of dollars each year making flyers for our Ratha Yatra and other events, most of which I dont attend. Point being is that Im sure Dayal will side w/ me because it helps him more than someone that makes post pics out of the Lord.

Any suggesting will be appreciated. Im sure sombody here has delt w/ a fanatical situation in thier sanga...

Should I-
1. Stop going to Gita class to avoid this person and further confrontations of this sort.
2. Look for an apology and then carry on as usual.
3. Leave class if/when he shows up to avoid further conflict.
4. Start smoking the grass and forget about it (It`s coool prabhuuu)

Thanks for hearing me out, writting it down helps me organise my plan of action.

Radhe Radhe!
Brajamani

Well, if he goes so far as to deface a picture of you performing devotional service, then I think it should be clear to any even remotely sane person who the one with the problem is. Don't you think?

Radhe Radhe!

I would simply talk with your friend and make it clear that if you do not receive an apology that you and your wife will no longer attend their functions or support their cause. If there is a bhraminical bone in his body he will approach the parties involved and correctly direct them. If he doesn't then... .

Sell that fine plant and use the proceeds to move to a warmer socio-religious climate.

maybe it's Krsna's plan for you to develop some real humility and tolerance. real humility and tolerance is when it really hurts, and we still remain humble and tolerant. pissing matches - regardless of who's right - do nothing for your spiritual health.

the guy is a clown - no doubt - but he can be used in Krsna's service, one way or another.

just my 2 cents worth of (solicited) advice...

Sue him for Libel, Slander, Defamation of Character and False Statement of Fact..

or you could just accuse him of sleeping in 'Michael Jacksons Bed' when he was 12..

Well the Bramin put him in his place and I asked him for an apology.

I think I`m going to go back into the woodwork, sit in the back and not get involved very much with anything new since it seems that anything can come up anytime.

thanks for the responses,
brajamani

yes I would and I hope the other see the same.

Now that once again was very funny

"I`m a Shaviate stuck in a Vaisnava`s body!"



I found out what the weed thing was all about. Thats what had me dazed more than anything. Clear back in November I was in New Vrindaban and a bramachari accused me of smoking pot in my temple room and when holloween came along the Cleveland Yatra and NV devotees met for Huge Harinam and the gossip was exchanged and from there on its been following me around like the plaque in iskcon.

I guess they have nothing better to do.

Brajamani,
I stopped most of my attendance at such gatherings to avoid such problems. That was 20 years ago and it is kinda lonely!

There are worse conflicts. Try to get it in a bigger context in your mind, 'Well it's not as bad as...'

I think you can handle this and still continue it, Brajamani. Seems the bigger group is sensible and will take your side if it gets worse.

Thanks adiyen, I think you are right.

The thing is that the bramin really does not want to take responsibility of this Bhakta. He has chastized him but he does not want to turn anyone away. (Not that I want him to) but someone will have be turned away because he escaled it to threats of bodily injury so I may get a restraining order on him so I can at least go to Ratha Yatra. He really is acting very sick and I really feel bad for him but hey, I need some kind of association, I`m with ya there



You really have a good point there. There have been some horrors that I have heard about. Heck, Cleveland had two temples (still do)..one east and one west because each side of the city could not get along. Bodily color played a role in this too since we were a big hub for the race riots at the time.

thanks again,
Brajamani

Lalita das where are you when I need you now dadaJi? I need the advice I gave you regarding the same people

Ha! Funny how things come around.

your servant,
Brajamani

Radhe!

I often go to the local ISKCON -temple.
Honestly, it is our only kind of real, alive, sadhu-sanga and I kind of like it to be there, listen to bhajans and hear some good lectures (sometimes there are ).

So I understand your problem, dear brajamani....

No Prasadam? Wow now I guess things can actually get worse. I was denied Prasadam in NV and that is realy why I left there.

Im sorry to hear this my friend, you are so sweet on these forums that I cant imagine you being denied such devotional mercy.

Krishna is Krishna if your GM, iskcon, NM, whatever-one god! Its sad some of us cant even serve the devotees which Krishna want us to do.

Maybe it is in the stars, but I too had a weird experience with a devotee during mangal arotika yesterday... and it hurt and I was like screw them and came home and my wife later was like "what time do you want leave for the evening program?" ... and I replied none, I am not going. She inquired about the problem and she raised a good point...(after calling me a big fat baby and telling me to quit my whining )

When we go and run into these "devotees" who are on some kind of kick, and we "offend" them, we should continue going, and just be ourselves...humble and kind and tolerant. For by setting these devotees off, we are actually helping them work through whatever their issues and problems may be. So look at it like you are being used as Krsna's agent to help these devotees face their hang ups.

How do we expect to work on our own crap if we never get pissed off... because that is when it is brought to our attention. If we say we are not the enjoyers, we should also be "not the offended" too, isn't it?

There is a reason this guy is attracting so much B.S. He is a magnet. Sooner or later he will become soo fried, that out of distress he will turn to Krsna. In the meantime His manner and behaviours will come back to him plenty and in due time. Perhaps if he sees that he is getting no reaction from you, he will lose interest and choose another victum for his wrath. I have compassion for these guys (when I have my own wits, otherwise I rent them space in my head...at a discounted rate ).

Sometimes too, I have to take a look at what is going on with me, and ask myself why I am attracting weirdos.

So I went anyways and ended up having the time of my life last night...it turned out to be one of the nicer temple experiences (which I am fortunate to say I have more of than bad one's) WHatever kick some other devotee may have is totally their problem. But, man, it is tuff...it hurts not being accepted. I know...I am way too sensitive, especialy when it comes to devotees, about whether or not I am accepted by them...

We are going to the temple to worship God. Not everyone is there for the same reason...some are there to try and Lord it over others...some are there only to make friends. It is their social engagement. Given your circumstances, it sounds like you have a respectful and humble approach of trying to stay low-key, yet do anything to serve. You are a remarkable devotee, Brajamani. It sounds like you have the support of others who respect you for who you are. I really don't know what more to say by way of how to handle this unfortunate situation, aside from KEEP GOING especially if you are getting something out of this...you are finding Krsna, and Krsna is reciprocating.

By removing your service, you would be punishing, first off, Krsna, what to speak of the true devotees.... not some knucklehead.

And I will wrap up by concuring with your cry for Lalitadas...if anyone has something nice to say, and keen insight to add... it is always him

Wow, such great insights. I`m very happy I have opened up a bit here. Thanks so much Neal for sharing that great insight

Topics on diksha, prasad and eating have been split into a new thread.

You would be punishing Krsna by not going to an Iskcon temple? And then the true devotees? Which true devotees?

I think (and you can assume that many of us think like that here) you are punishing yourself for not looking at what you are doing after being told loud and clear that this is not a place for you to go. I think it is a case of nostalgia versus standing up for truth, sentimentalism versus sacrifice.

As to taking it as a lesson in learning humility, I think this would be the path if someone came to your own place to blaspheme you and your service. But for you to go to another's place, and then not get the message, but turn it around saying you have to learn to be humble and accept it is insane. The message of humility in this instance would be to say: I need to withdraw, I need to look into myself, what am I doing here?

Obviously, you take as sound advice what you like to hear. It is human to look for and to like what has the most affinity for us at a given time. But look for a moment what really hurts you. I found "the brahmin's" behaviour really objectionable and hurting you. He's a diplomate. From your past it seems you like to be fooled by people, you like to hear nice preaching to you and all is fine again.

Instead, jiv jago! Wake up and look at reality, take a deep breath and take courage to start to say no!

Krsna is not punishable, but you are.

C'mon...
I mean, try and help out a fellow fringy...and Whoa!

Take my words with a grain of salt...they might go down better

I know the feelings of most here, and I keep a very open mind. By what I meant of true devotees, I meant those who are innocent and doing the best they can under the current circumstances...like Brajamani, like his friend, like me... (but again...grain of salt....by saying this, I don't mean to say I am a true devotee...far from it....but I am honest and I try hard, and I want something...and I try to treat others with respect, no matter who they are...I look for drops of nectar in a vat of brine...I think good association can be found in ISKCON still by finding others like this)

Maybe punish wasn't the right word, but I think attempting the best devotional service you can do today with those around is better than nothing at all?

Anyways, I truly meant well and I will try and think a little more before I post again.

And another thing...that I hang around this website and read books suggested and try and get along shows something, like perhaps I am looking for something better? In the meantime I am where I am at...why rain on my parade...please, I have no stance or am not propagating anything, nor do I have any thing to argue.... I just ask for some tolerance and encouragement?

Sorry, Srijiva, I took your quote, but was addressing brajamani, since he asked for advice, not you, and later wholeheartedly subscribed to your views. Sorry for having hurt your feelings. My mistake, failing to make things clear from beginn with!

That is ok... I understand now...I still think it was kind of heavy...but then again...when we go in to see the dentist to have decay removed or a cavity filled...it hurts. This business can be the same, can't it...cutting words are sharp...but when spoken by the Vaishnava to cut away decaying sentiments....I mean ouch!

At anyrate... I really appreciate the apology...and I too am sorrry if I posted some nonsensical stuff

Radhe!

I too like to go to ISKCON Sunday feasts, and as long as I can find something to enrich my spiritual life with (like bhajans, lecture,...) and as long as nobody comes up to me and blows out some blasphemous things, why not go there?

I don´t think that it should be like nabadip said: Don´t go there, they are all in maya, they do everything wrong, etc...
Basically the human being is social and as an aspiring devotee I do not have much choice in choosing my sanga.
Of course if one is that advanced that one can live on books and bhajan alone, then one can stay away from "inferior" grounds.

Dear Sri Jiva, I like your attitude very very much and I too take only the good things. I was fanatic long enough, and it brought me nowhere.

Although I disagree with certain philosophical points, still I like to visit our local ISKCON-temple. And I like to offer my obeisances there too.
If I see them as "lower", "inferior", I take the arrogant position.
That doesn´t mean that I accept all what they say or do.
Its all about inner attitude...I can find thousands of faults everywhere....

And honestly, I never heard my Gurudeva say that we should not go there.
To go there is one thing, to accept and to hear offences is another.
I made the rule for me that I will immediately leave whenever they start to offend my family (Guru-bhais, Guru-lineage).

I talked to the temple president and he even allowed me to cook the Sunday Feast there and to give Bhagavatam-class in the morning.

I think you know well that I did not say that. I could not have, since that is Iskcon-language and narrow-view.

What I said is that it appears as insane to interpret a repeated thrashing by some so-called bhakta in a humble manner, rather than taking it straight by what it says. Everything is open to interpretation, obviously. But if God is supposed to be present in such dealings, is showing some sign, why not read it the obvious way? Why force it around to suit your own deeper (or superficial) desires?

I personally do not have much against visiting an Iskcon temple now and then. In Zürich they have Hansadutta's small Jagannath trinity which I love to see, and they have Gaur-Nitai which I served way back. It's also kind of nostalgic to watch their carneval, when they display "vedic" rituals in their super-brahminical fashion. There is a feeling of Indian Fair there at the Sunday Feast with all these smells from the kitchen, the temple-room, not to speak of the sights with all the Tamils visiting. Sure, they are all nice people including the devotees, and I am reminded of my own temple-days there, the simplistic world-view, knowing all the answers and all. It was easier, when Krsna Candra was still there who kind of headed the temple and had all kinds of traditional books in the library (even though labeling them "unauthorized"...) He welcomed diversity, so for him the presence of a traditional Gaudiya was an opportunity to show and apply a wider horizon. He was later kicked out for a similar transgression.

Back to brajamani: An option for you, if you are entirely attached to going there, is to go and associate with your friends and leave the very moment that this guy starts to misbehave toward you. If he sends you e-mails and other stuff, I'd print them out and bring them to the temple, and put them on a message-board or whatever: make things public in a non-aggressive way. if your message is missing the next day or Sunday, replace it. Address the situation, but do not address the person or argue with him until he comes to you to apologize. Ignore him entirely, and leave when he starts his thing. At some point of time the community will have to take care of him. He puts them all to shame. How can they tolerate that a bhakta is being blasphemed in front of their eyes?

Take heart. All will be well.

Jai Nitai.

It is a really nice to see extending help and advice by fellow vaishnava here. This is called community. I really appreciate tarunji's view and also pracrtical suggestion by Navadwip Ji.

Yeah, I am sorry, but your post sounded a little heavy.
Please take no offence.


Krishna Chandra is a very good friend of mine. I will see him soon.

Jaya Sri Sri Gaura Bhakta Vrnda!

I will engage my anger against the enemies of Krishna's devotees!

Lalita Das' Curse: "Let this offender's pride be cruched by Sri Sri Gaura Bhakta Vrnda's compassion, let his heart be melted by the fire of Sri Sri Gaura Bhakta Vrnda's love, let his only desire be to serve the same Sri Sri Gaura Bhakta Vrnda he has offended, and let the fate of this offender become my own!"

Dear Brajamani,

I'm sorry to hear of your recent trouble. I know that you are sincerely engaged in service and it is disturbing to think that someone would try to disrupt it. It sounds to me like someone might be a little envious of you. I think that the devotees here have given some good advice. I am not sure how I could really add to it. I don't know much of anything about anything at all.

What would I do? Hide. I'm not saying that is what you should do, but I am the kind of person who always tries to follow the path of least resistance. If something is a disturbance, I just go away from it. Fin. You seem different, though. I think you really like to work with Doyal Nitai Das and do some good seva with him. I wouldn't imagine you running away. If the situation is as serious as it sounds, though, I would hope that Doyal Nitai Das is taking it as such.

If someone was disrespectful to one of my friends, they would definitely NOT be welcome in my house. If they threatened one of my friends... Well, they better not even think about it, unless they want some of my foot dust on their ass! Krishna's mercy might have to descend in the form of a knucke sandwich!

But seriously, I don't see much you really can do besides go on serving with a straw between your teeth. If this person continues harassing you (or any person), Doyal Nitai Das should kick him out with no hesitation. If he doesn't, he is only enabling the situation.

Your servant,
Lalita Das

brajamani,

I apologize if I didn't give a more serious response to your situation here...

Good for you that others came forth with some worthwhile thoughts on the matter.

namaskar,

jijaji

Thank you nabadip, I will take your advise as well for it is full of good recomendations, especially which I have bolded in your quote. Our Bhramin is a people pleaser, he chastized this devotee, however the devotee did indeed send about a dozen more emails that were downright immature...one saying that he knows well that he has made an offense but will never apoligize to me. He also physically threatened me. What I will prolly do is timline all the emails and then post them on our own forum for the congregation to see (only if logged in as to keep it in the group).

radhe radhe,
brajamani

Oh dude its cool, I always liked your sense of humor


brajamani

Radhe Radhe!

At one point my wife and I managed ACBSP and ISKCON's first temple at 26 Second Avenue in NYC for about 6 years. One thing I learned during that period is that one must, as a Manager, look at for the welfare of one's congregation. You cannot and should not be a "people pleaser" especially when an issue is that of Vaisnava aparadha. I would encourage DN das to understand that his service is not to facilitate everyones fancy but to facilitate serve to the Vaisnavas, Sri Guru, Sri Gauranga and Sri Yugal Kishora. That means making decisions based on facilitating such service to and for his congregation. If he allows activities such as you described to go on then he will be involved in the offense. I know you said he chastised this bhakta but he must make it stop by either further counsel or removing this bhakta from his congregation. He should also then present such decisions to the congregation in hopes of easing their mind and how they view you.

Rasaraja dasa

Thats right I remember you mentioning 26 ave.

I told him a number of times and forewared to him all the emails and threats and he didnt say anything further. He just wants peace yet I want him to grows some 'you know what' and deal w/ it.

It is indeed serious aparadha but DN just does not get it even though Im trying to love it into him to show him this hurts everyone. This offender has done this before and basically has a history of being a jerk to well, basically everyone. Gopa Kumar, formally from New Vrindaban said the bramacharis would run at his site because he was so full of freaky baggage when he visited them.

Thanks yuo for your input..especially since you have some experience in running a group.

radhe!
brajamani

Ah such wonderfull words straight for the poet himself, so kind.



Now this is an insight



Thats how I feel Ji!



Thank you so much for your input, I miss you so much at class, please come back and we will do bhajan just after prasadam.


bri

Thank you,

Jai Sri Krishna,



jijaji

Radhe Radhe!

Just forward him my response since I was his Senior Godbrother !

In all seriousness he really needs to understand the depth of how this will effect his spiritual life and those of his congregation. This is not to be taken lightly and should be faced head on. Personally we had to do this on many occasions even with Senior disciples of ACBSP as it was both our service and for the protection of all of those in our congregation. Believe me when you cmbine the atmosphere of 26 Second Avenue and the dynamic of dealing with such issues with ACBSP's disciples it was never fun nor easy but it is the duty of one in such a position.

Rasaraja dasa

Case closed

OK!