Week 3 - Diksa -

Some discussion ideas:

What exactly is diksa?
Jiva Goswami's Bhakti Sandarbha quote vs the 'formality' of initiation.
Transmision of diska via parampara.

Again, just some discussion ideas I had. I'll elaborate on them some more.

This is a little out of scope, but does the siddha-pranali correspond one to one with a particular diksa parampara? And if so, is it safe to assume that it is the diksa that makes a guru a member of a particular siddha-pranali?

Yes, exactly so. Diksha-guru is one, siksha-gurus are many. Diksha-guru offers us the seed of our sambandha in the form of the mantra, establishing us on the the tangible path towards a specific relationship.

The section of Prema Bhakti Candrika from the 55th verse on contains a lot of relevant material.



For me, this concept blew apart my conception of diksa. As did taking diksa itself! In that little piece I wrote about receiving mantra from Baba I tried to express the overwhelming sense I had that the mantras were live, that I wanted to know these "people" and that sense permeates the sadhana we have been given right down to the smallest details. It is profound personalism. It's...yeah, raganuga bhakti!

[Need to take a break lest I float away on my reverie. And I guess I should catch up on my homework and do the actual reading. ]

You aren't supposed to chop that Sanskrit passage out -- you are supposed to know learn that one by heart!


Important terminology, too. An extremely important passage.

This one, along with the definition of diksha, is going to be in our final exam of Guru-tattva-vijnana...

On page 15, Babaji speaks of the Lord entering the disciple's body, mind and prana via the diksa-mantra to purify the material body, quoting a verse from CC to support the point.

How exactly does sound (sabda) purify the material elements and make them suitable for seva, even if the sabda in question is a diksa-mantra? Essentially, what is it about a diksa-mantra that makes it powerful enough to transform material faculties and spiritualise them?

Again on page 15, Babaji speaks of "many obstacles and defeats on their spiritual paths" for those who do think Harinama alone is sufficient and diksa is unnecessary. From the context of the entire paragraph I understand his point, but what precisely is meant by obstacles and defeats? Any examples, please?

As was pointed out earlier, the mantra is a nAmAtmika-mantra and essentialy nondifferent from the Lord himself. Through association with the Lord in his sound form in a devotional manner, the very being of the sAdhaka is brought under the auspices of the svarUpa-zakti, thus essentially spiritualized.

On page 14, Babaji speaks of the jiva's beginningless ignorance. He quotes a verse from CC (jIvera svarUpa hoy) to show how the jIva is actually KRSNa-dAs, and later mentions the forgetfulness of a relationship with Sri Hari.

If we have been averse to the Lord since beginningless time, how do we know that we are essentially KRSNa-dAs? We may say that the constitutional position (svarUpa) is like that, but how do we know?

I still AM blown away by the memories of that "ear-transmission", and I still have that incredible "alive"-feeling too, like Braja, right, overwhelming.

And what a nectar to chant these mantras...special thanks to Madhavaji for giving me some advice on what to meditate on !

More and more I seem to get to KNOW the people "in" these mantras. Like building a relationship...

As Baba points out, it would be a nAmAparAdha, aparAdhas beginning with guror avaJja and sAdhu-ninda. The obstacles arising from nAma-aparAdha are described in numerous scriptures and are a bit too elaborate a topic for this thread; would you like to start a new thread in the general public area exploring this?

Thanks, I understand that. But I am asking exactly how does an element like sound (whether spiritualised or materialised) which is intangible have an effect on the all the physical faculties of the sAdhaka? Babaji mentions three particular faculties; Body, mind and prana (life airs). What processes are at work where an "intangible" element has a transformative effect on physical (tangible) materials?

NAmAtmika-mantra? Are you referring to mahA-mantra? I thought Babaji was speaking about dIkSa-mantra?

Again, a rather elaborate topic for the scope of this thread. How do we discover certainty in religion and in the words of the scriptures? A new thread, please.

We aren't talking about an element like sound. The sound in question is nondifferent from Bhagavan. yo mantraH sa guruH sAkSAd yo guruH sa hariH svayam (HBV 4.352 / Vamana-kalpa) - That mantra is directly the guru, and that guru is directly Hari.

The fact of the Lord's manifesting in the form of a sound is not relevant with regards to the purificatory effect, since this is an immaterial phenomena.



You haven't been reading carefully. Read this again.

Haha ok sure!

I thought this was a nice paragraph:


brahmANDa brahmite kona bhAgyavAn jIva
guru-kRSNa-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bIja (CC)

Yes, spiritual sound, I know. Even so, how does a sound have a physiological effect? What are the biomechanics that are at work?

We can say that the mantra has a purifying effect on the mind etc. due to its power, but how does it work on the body? And prana?

The svarUpa-zakti that descends upon contemplation on the sound has a wholistic transforming effect on the entire being of the sAdhaka, all levels included. There are no biomechanics at work any more than there are when you offer bhoga to Thakurji and take the spiritualized prasAd.

I know you're into "finding biological evidence of spiritual concepts", however I believe here the pursuit is a bit misplaced. You won't be able to look up the status of your body by screening through your DNA. "Ah hey there's the V-base, for Vishnu, paired with the B-base, for Bhakti!"

As a complete site note/off topic/adding nothing to the conversation, this question gets to the heart of many 'new age' ideas of 'harmonies' and 'vibrations'. I tend to think it is a much more subtle effect at work.. its not like we can run a kirtan through a oscilliscope & say 'Oh look, there's the transformative vibration! Its a good kirtan'

While that may be so, I was specifically thinking of that anecdote of Akincana Krsnadas Babaji whose heartbeat took the form of the mahAmantra when heard by a doctor via sthetoscope. I have heard several other anecdotes over the years and even met one or two doctors who were witness to similar spiritual experience, though not necessarily Gaudiya. In the case of AKD, while it was hari-nAma and not dIkSa-mantra that was present, it is indeed a mystery how such a biological staple like a heartbeat becomes so transformed. But apart from that, it was Babaji's terms that caught my attention; body, mind and life-airs. I suppose we all have heard similar things like that in other sastric verses, so it would be something to investigate I believe.

Kirtan through oscilloscopes, why not though? I think some years back Dhira Krsna das (or someone) of ISKCON carried out a scientific study as part of a university that analysed the effects of Hare-Krsna-mahAmantra on the mind. The results of the study were published in BTG as well as a couple of other scientific magazines. The basic premise as far as I recall was that, yes, japa does have a calming and beneficial effect on the mind and is a good stress-killer and so on. But we knew that anyway!

It is well-known that meditation has a calming effect on the mind and any scientific studies can easily back that up.

[DIGRESSION]Actually the head of my Psychology Dept. recently used meditation scenatio to impress upon us the effects of meditation for relaxation. He ("correctly") concluded that there is no significant increase in relaxation by means of meditation than any other relaxing activity such as watching TV. I told him that it is all dependent on the subject matter of the meditation itself as well as a question of the absorption of the meditator in his meditation.[/DIGRESSION]

However, meditation is a function of the mind whereas japa (either of hari-nAma or dIkSa-mantra) is an oral and audiological activity. I do strongly believe in the biological basis of behaviour and the analysis and effect of external (spiritual) practices on consciousness. I think this is going to become something of a specialist field for me and I'm contemplating a full-blown study of it as my final-year project at universty, hopefully.

Baba's comments about how the chanting of dIkSa-mantras as well as that supporting quote from CC do pique my curiosity as to precisely what mechanisms are at work in order to make the body "suitable for the service of the Lord". as Babaji eloquently puts it.

Without descending into matters of politics, I've been thinking on this point lately in regard to some of the participants at GD and also in regard to certain movements. There is incredible power in bhakti, especially so in pancha-anga bhakti, the five primary forms. We can see this very clearly in different ways--how ISKCON rose up with little grounding in Gaudiya siddhanta, how Vrindaban overflows with so many different individuals and groups, how some people manifest a great attraction to Bhagavat-katha without recourse to a parampara, regular sadhana, etc.

Their paths may take them far and are certainly worthy of utmost respect but as followers of Mahaprabhu and Sri Rupa-Raghunatha, we're seeking the complete package, knocking on the door of the castle as the right kind of beggar. And what does it mean when we submit to these ways instituted by our Gaudiya acaryas? It means that they become responsible for us, we are theirs.

We've just heard how at the time of diksa, Krsna accepts us on the same level as himself--imagine what this means! We are no longer anguished religionists or philosophers trying to control our senses, develop knowledge, pull ourselves up form the sludge: we've been offered a place in the company of the saints and Mahaprabhu and our dear Sri Radhika. And what did we have to pay for this? Two anas and a little humility!?

That was just beautiful, Brajaji. That hits the spot and puts everything into perspective.

Radhe Radhe!

Very deep insights Braja... I also really enjoyed the begger analogy. I would add to it but I think I would just mess it up!

Rasaraja dasa

Very interesting

Regarding "infusion", for those interested with original terminology, the word saJcAra is commonly used in this context. hRdaye cid-vRtti bhaktir saJcAra kare...

Regarding more about "physical" effects about dIkSa, Madhava and I (and others) have had brief discussions on this subject at other forums, which are altogether not appropriate for posting links here. Is there any place here where the topic was discussed?

I forgot to reference the CC quote that Babaji Maharaja quotes: sei deha korena tAra cid-Anandamoy, aprAkRta dehe tAra caraNa bhajoy. This is a direct statement from Mahaprabhu about how the dIkSa is powerful enough to have a (gradual and long-term?) effect on even the physical body. For some, the term "spiritualised body" may make more sense. So this is what I was actually getting at; how does (spiritual) sound, zabda, in the form of dIkSa-mantras effect this change in the physical body? This happens combined with sAdhana, yes of course, but it is clear that the dIkSa is a predominant factor.

Let's also remember the previous verse, it explains the concept.



The spiritualization, therefore, is directly connected with Atma-samarpaNa. As you selflessly offer your body, mind and your very life-air to the service of the Lord, they become spiritual.

When I inquired from Baba as to whether this took place all at once, he said that it depended on the Atma-samarpaNa, which in the case of most people comes about gradually. Of course, a devotee with very fine samskaras of Atma-samarpaNa from the past could also experience the effects instantly.




I've been trying to spell this out in many different ways. I'm at loss as to in how many other ways I can possibly do it. The factor of sound or smell or taste or vision is irrelevant, the medium is irrelevant; the spiritualization takes place on account of engagement in sAdhana, spiritual activities that invoke the presence of svarUpa-zakti, which in turn spiritualizes all that is engaged in service.

The Atma-samarpaNa is the defining factor in the spiritualization of the aspirant's entire being. Without that, no amount of zabda, sparza, rUpa, rasa or gandha are going to help you spiritualize your entire being. Atma-samarpaNa is the mechanism at work.

Ah yes, now I see. Thank you. So even chanting of the powerful and potent dIkSa-mantras will not work or effect any realisation if the sAdhaka is not 'surrendered' enough. I was all along thinking of a Gopa Kumara type of scenario where he attained all of his achievements by meditting on the mantra alone without the guidance of a guru unfortunately (have I got that wrong?). So if it becomes a question of Atma-samarpaNa when referring to Gopa Kumara or us ordinary souls, then I suppose the question then becomes: in what way does the physical body react to this (Atma-samarpaNa)?

Here I am thinking of things such as the aSTa-sattvika-vikAras, Sri Narottam's divine form melting into milk, and so on. While Sri Narottam's case is beyond the reach of us ordinary souls, the aSTa-sattvika-vikAras would be a more appropriate consequence and more likely to happen.

Perhaps this particular thread of discussion is a bit beyond the scope of dIkSa-mantras, but I am trying to relate it to Babaji Maharaja's statement about the Lord's entering the heart of the devotee "in the form of the mantra to make his body, mind and life-airs transcendentally suitable for serving the Lord." This doesn't just work alone as surrender is also necessary. I hope I've got it right now.

As explained in the diksha-mantra thread, the diksha-mantras are there to aid in the process of Atma-samarpaNa. If the samarpaNa isn't there, it means the meaning and purpose of the mantra isn't understood, and if the meaning of the mantra isn't understood, how can mantra-siddhi possibly be attained?



This is a rather elaborate topic that would merit (or rather, demands) a separate thread. Would you like to start one in the "Philosophy and Theology" section with a short introduction?

A dazzling smile on the face
Specially if one awakes-up
for mangalarati.
Radhe-Radhe!

On page 14, in the section on Diksa, Babaji Maharaja writes:



The way I am reading this is that the ignorance and illusion is a result of aversion to the Lord. By why would the jiva be averse to the Lord if it weren't already in illusion and ignorance? If it is the other way around and ignorance and illusion are there from the "beginning" (thus causing the aversion), why are some jivas "naturally" ignorant and in illusion?

Radhe-Shyam!

Re diksa: I have heard that the mantras are spoken into one ear for men and another ear for women.

Is this so in the traditional line, and if so, why?

We both received the mantras through the right ear.

I believe what you're after is somehow related with the Brahma-gayatri innovation and some related rules.

I found some material online saying that the ancient Bhagavatam commentator Sridhara Swami's words on Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.25.51 were that the right ear is "stronger and first" and is thus meant for hearing the karma-kanda section of the Veda, whereas the opposite is true of the left ear; and that the left ear, being second, is better suited for hearing the spiritual conclusions of Vedanta. Not sure what this really means....

Another question - apologies in advance as I expect this is covered somewhere on the Gaudiya.com site. But I am confused as I have read different things about this in different postings on Gaudiya Discussions:

Is diksa in the traditional line the same thing as siddha-pranali?

If they are different, are they sometimes given at the same time?

What is the qualification for each?

If diksa only (without siddha-pranali) is given, does the practitioner embark on asta kaliya lila smaranam - or does that wait until after siddha-pranali is given?

If that ear is stronger and first, then is it not befitting to hear the mantra with the better ear, to sacrifice the mundane use of the ear in favor of diksha and the subsequent atma-samarpan?



No, they aren't the same thing. Diksha means receiving the diksha-mantras, siddha-pranali means receiving information about the details of one's own siddha-svarupa and the siddha-svarupas of one's predecessors.



This depends largely on the initiate. Sometimes they are given on the same day, sometimes they may be separated by a good many years. However, generally they aren't given at the diksha-ceremony, but after it, even if they are given "at the same time".



For diksha - a sincere desire to worship Krishna, a willingness to embark on the path of bhakti, and a willingness to cut back on the mundane aspects of one's life in favor of Krishna-bhajana. For siddha-pranali - the same as for raganuga-bhakti.



Though some kind of smarana may of course be done at any time, generally one only gets into it after siddha-pranali, which establishes the sadhaka in a particular role with particular relationships, clarifying one's relationship with the lila.

Thanks Madhavaji: concise and clear replies. I do appreciate very much your consistent and reliable engagement with dunderheads like me via this site!