Fall of the jiva - What's the conclusion?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Aug. 15 2002,11:09)

This is nice sloka.

“The Vedic reciters, or the personified Vedas, sing thus: “O unconquerable Lord, You are the Supreme Personality. No one is equal to You or greater than You. No one can be more glorious in his activities. All glories unto You! All glories unto You! By Your own transcendental nature You fully possess all six opulences. As such, You are able to deliver all conditioned souls from the clutches of maya. O Lord, we fervently pray that You kindly do so. All the living entities, being Your parts and parcels, are naturally joyful, eternal and full of knowledge, but due to their own faults they try to imitate You by trying to become the supreme enjoyer. Thus they disobey Your supremacy and become offenders. And because of their offenses, Your material energy has taken charge of them. Thus their transcendental qualities of joyfulness, bliss and wisdom have been covered by the clouds of the three material qualities. This cosmic manifestation, made of the three material qualities, is just like a prison house for the conditioned souls. The conditioned souls are struggling very hard to escape from material bondage, and according to their different conditions of life they have been given different types of engagement. But since all engagements are based on knowledge supplied by You, the conditioned souls can execute pious activities only when You mercifully inspire them to do so. Therefore, without taking shelter at Your lotus feet one cannot surpass the influence of material energy. Actually, we, as personified Vedic knowledge, are always engaged in Your service by helping the conditioned souls understand You.’ ”

This passage actually draws the idea from Bhagavata 10.87.15, although not an exact translation. What you have presented is the bhavanuvada of Bhaktivedanta Swami from his Krishna Book, with considerable elaboration on the verse not found in the original verse of the Bhagavata. This verse appears in the early part of the 87th chapter when the srutis begin to offer their praise to the Lord. Below is the original Sanskrit with a rather literal translation.

zrI-zrutaya UcuH
jaya jaya jahy ajAm ajita doSa gRbhIta guNAM
tvam asi yad AtmanA samavaruddha-samasta-bhagaH
aga-jagad-okasAm akhila-zakty-avabodhaka te
kvacid ajayAtmanA ca carato ’nucaren nigamaH ||14||
The srutis said, “Victory, victory to you, O one unconquered by faults, O you who impregnate this world with the modes of nature, O you who are completely aloof if your original position, perfect in all mights, the source of all energy for the sun, the universe and all inhabitants of this world, O illuminator, O You who Yourself occasionally sport with Your mundane energy, O one appreciated by the Vedas, please dispel the illusion of this world!”

To point out that the passage about the conditioned souls and so forth comes from Bhaktivedanta and is not presented in Bhagavata in this context, I'll also present the following verses.

bRhad upalabdham etad avayanty avazeSatayA
yata udayAstam-ayau vikRter mRdi vAvikRtAt
ata RSayo dadhus tvayi mano-vacanAcaritaM
katham ayathA bhavanti bhuvi datta-padAni nRNAm ||15||
"O great one, who is perceived and understood as the foundation of this world in its generation, transformation and dissolution, just as the clay is transformed (remaining unchanged in essence)! Because of this the sages have placed You in their minds, words and deeds. How could the footsteps of men fail to touch the earth on whic

h they live?"

iti tava sUrayas try-adhipate ’khila-loka-mala-
kSapaNa-kathAmRtAbdhim avagAhya tapAMsi jahuH
kim uta punaH sva-dhAma-vidhutAzaya-kAla-guNAH
parama bhajanti ye padam ajasra-sukhAnubhavam ||16||
"Thus, O master of the three modes of nature and the entire universe, the pious men, having forgotten all miseries, dive into the ocean of nectarean narrations about You which eradicate one from all contamination. Again, what can be said of those superhuman beings who have dispelled the influence of time and the modes of nature from their minds, and who are engaged in worshiping You in your eternal realm, in which ceaseless joy is experienced!"

These verses in fact prove to be a complete antithesis of the theory of falling down from the spiritual world. If the pious men forget all miseries while remembering the infallible Lord in whose presence all illusion vanishes, then what to speak of those superhuman beings who have dispelled all illusion from their minds and who are completely absorbed in worshiping the Lord in his eternal abode! How could illusion ever overcome them?

Thanks for referring us to these verses Kailash, they are indeed very nice!

King Yudhisthira inquires from Sri Narada in the Seventh Book of Srimad Bhagavata:

What kind of, and whose curse was it that prevailed even against the servants of Lord Sri Hari? The incarnation of those exclusively devoted to Sri Hari (Jaya and Vijaya) appears as something incredible. Be please to narrate the episode connected with the corporeal existence of the denizens of Vaikunthapura, devoid as they are of a material body, mind, senses as well as life breath.

(SB 7.1.33-34)

Narada then begins to narrate the story of Jaya and Vijaya. The point here is that Yudhisthira was quite suprised that a resident of the spiritual world would fall to the material world to take on a material body, mind senses and so forth. In other words, souls don't fall from the spiritual world, unless the will of the Lord is involved to enact a lila. In Vaikuntha the bodies and mind of the residents there are made entirely of the Lord's own spiritual nature. How can there be any room for the most smallest degree of infiltration of misuse of free will?

There is no tatastha region as such.Tatastha is what the jiva is constitutionally and nothing else.Jivas are tatastha and they are conditioned anAdi (see Madhavananda's post above) .Even while in conditioned or liberated state,they are still tatastha.

QUOTE(jiva @ Aug. 16 2002,16:44)

When the jiva attains vastu-siddhi and is further transferred into aprakata-lila, the essential quality of being tatastha, in other words, being between the two energies, is no longer there, and the jiva, although originated from tatastha, can no longer be considered ontologically tatastha, since it has now become permanently situated in and obtained the qualities of svarupa-sakti. Of course it is still considered tatastha on account of its origin, though no longer possessing the quality of tatastha.

I am posting some further references on the subject matter. The following set of references are drawn from "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall". Comments in between the verses are mine.

As we have already discussed, the bondage of the living entity is anadi, without a beginning. Mandukyopanisad 1.16 states:

anAdi mAyayA supto yadA jIva prabudhyate
ajam anidram asvapnam advaitaM budhyate tadA

“When the jIva wakes from sleep which is caused by the beginningless illusion or ignorance, then he realizes that he is unborn, and free of sleep, dreams, and dualism.”

Bhagavad-gita 13.20 states:

prakRtiM puruSaM caiva
viddhy anAdI ubhAv api
vikArAMz ca guNAMz caiva
viddhi prakRti-sambhavAn

“You should know that both the material nature and the living entities are beginningless, and the consequent transformations of the three modes of nature are born of material nature too.”

Visvanatha comments on this verse:

mAya-jIvayor-api mac-chaktitvena anAditvAt tayoH saMzleSo’py anAdir iti bhAvaH

“The material energy and the living entities, being My energies, both are beginningless, and their mutual embrace is also beginningless.”

VedAnta SUtra 2.1.35 states:

na karmAvibhAgAd iti cen nAnAditvAt

“If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality seen in the world, arguing that everyone had the same karma at the beginning of creation, this is not true because karma is beginningless.”

Baladeva VidyAbhuSaNa comments on this sUtra:

karmaNaH kSetrajJAnAM ca brahmavad anAditva- svIkArAt. pUrva-pUrva-karmAnusareNottarottarakarmaNi pravarttanAt na kiJcid dUSaNam smRtiz ca:

puNya-pApAdikaM viSNu karyet pUrvakarmaNA
anAditvAt karmaNaz ca na virodhaH kathaJcana

karmaNo’nAditvenAnAvasthA tu na doSaH prAmANikatvAt.

“VyAsa has accepted that karma and the jIvas are beginningless, just like Brahman. Thus there is no fault, because subsequent karma is inspired by the past karma. The SmRti confirms this:

‘Lord ViSNu makes the living entities do good or bad acts according to their past karma. There is no contradiction in this because karma has no beginning.’

If someone objects, that if karma is beginningless, then it has the defect of infinite regress, we say that is not so, because the scriptures say so.”

ViSNu-rahasya further describes the condition of eternal bondage in its fifth chapter:

anAdi-karmaNA baddhA jIvA nityaM hy anantazaH
liGga-deha-yutAH sarve patitA murcchitA iva
yadi te sthUla-dehena yUtA na syur ime’khilAH
kathaM karmANi kurvIran viSNu-bhakti-parAGmukhAH
apURNa-bhaktayaste vA kathaM mokSam avApnuyuH

“The jIvas, bound by beginningless karma, are eternal and countless. They lie wrapped in subtle bodies as in a state of unconsciousness. They are not devoted to Lord ViSNu and if they are not given a gross body how can they engage in karma or bhakti? And being devoid of bhakti how can they attain liberation?”

Caitanya Caritamrita 2.22.10-12 explains that there are two categories of vibhinnamsa-jivas (the Lord’s separated expansions):

sei vibhinnAMza jIva—dui ta’ prakAra
eka—nitya-mukta’, eka—nitya-saMsAra’

“The living entities are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.”

‘nitya mukta’—nitya kRSNa-caraNe unmukha
‘kRSNa-pAriSada’ nAma, bhuJje sevA-sukha

“The eternally liberated living entities are always faced towards the feet of Sri Krishna. They are known as His associates, and they relish the happiness of serving Him.”

‘nitya-bandha’—kRSNa haite nitya-bahirmukha
‘nitya-saMsAra’, bhuJje narakAdi duHkha

“The eternally bound living entities have been eternally opposed to Krishna. They rotate forever in the cycle of birth and death, suffering the miseries of hellish existence and so forth.”

Jiva Gosvami also describes these two categories in his ParamAtma-sandarbha (47):

tadevamananta eva jIvAkhyAs taTasthAH zaktayaH. Tatra tAsAM vargadvayam. Eko vargo’nAditaH eva bhagavadunmukhaH, anyas tvanAditaH eva bhagavat-parAGmukhaH-svabhAvatastadIya jJAna-bhAvAt tadIya-jJAnAbhAvAcca.

“In this way the marginal energies called jIvas are unlimited. They have two classes. One class is devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi) and the other is not devoted to the Lord beginninglessly (anAdi). This is because the former class of jIvas naturally have knowledge of the Lord and the second class of jIvas naturally do not have knowledge of the Lord.”

He repeats the same in his Priti-sandarbha (1):

atha jIvazca tadIyo’pi tajjJAna-saMsargAbhAva-yuktatvena tan-mAyA-parAbhUtaH sannAtma-svarUpa-jJAna-lopAn-mAyA-kalpitopAdhyAvezAc-canAdi-saMsAra-duHkhena sambadhyate iti paramAtma-sandarbhAdAveva nirUpitam asti.

“Although the jIva is part of the Lord, he is devoid of knowledge about Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by mAyA. This being so, he is united with the beginningless material miseries because the knowledge of his svarUpa is covered and he is absorbed in the upAdhis, designations, created by mAyA. This was explained in the ParamAtma-sandarbha.”

The Bhagavata (3.7.10) states:

yad arthena vinAmuSya puMsa Atma-viparyayaH
pratIyata upadraSTuH sva-ziraz chedanAdikaH

“Thus the living entity, acting in meaningless ways, lives in misapprehension over his real identity, just like a man who observes his own head being cut off.”

Visvanatha comments:

tatra bhagavataH pRSTha-sthitayA anAdyavidyayA tamaH svarUpayA anAdi-vaimukhya-rUpa-bhagavat-pRSThasthAnAM jIvAnAM jJAnam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvaM kAraNaM nApi prayojanaM kim apy asti.

“Avidya (ignorance), which is anadi, is situated on the backside of the Lord and has the nature of ignorance. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the backside of the Lord and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered.”

Bhagavad-gita (7.27) states:

icchA-dveSa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bhArata
sarva-bhUtAni sammohaM sarge yAnti parantapa

“O descendant of Bharata, O conqueror of enemies, all living entities are born into delusion, bewildered by the duality of desire and hatred.”

In his commentary, Visvanatha points out how desire and hatred arise from the karma from the previous creation:

tvan-mAyayA jIvAH kadArbhya muhyantItyapekSAyam AhH iccheti. sarge jagat-sRSTyArmbhakAle sarvva-bhUtAni sarve jIvAH sammohayanti, kena? PrAcIna-kamodbuddhau yavicchAdveSau.

“If someone asks, ‘Since when are the jIvas bewildered by Your mAyA’, the Lord speaks the current verse. At the beginning of the creation all jIvas become bewildered. By what? By the desire and hatred which springs from the karma performed in the past.”

Thus it is easily understood that karma must be beginningless, since there has been no creation during which the living entity would have been born without the dualities of desire and hate. If a living entity is born without being delusioned, he is liberated, and consequently not fallen. Baladeva confirms in his comments on the first verse of the Bhagavad-gita (1.1) that the karma of the living entities is beginningless:

tasyAM khalvIzvara-jIva prakRti-kAla-karmmANi paJcArthA varNyante; teSu vibhu-samvidIzvaraH, aNusaMvij-jIvaH, sattvAdiguNa-trayAzrayo dravyaM prakRtiH, traiguNyazUnyaM jaDa-dravyam kAlaH, puM-prayatna-niSpAdyam adRSTAdi-zabda-vAcyaM karmmeti. TeSAm lakSaNAni-eSv-IzvarAdIni catvAri nityAni jIvAdIni tvIzavazyAni karmma tu prAgabhAva-vat anAdi vinASi ca.

“In Bhagavad-gItA five subjects are described—the Lor

d, the jIva, material nature, time and karma. Out of these the Lord is the supreme conscious being. The jIva is the atomic conscious being. PrakRti is the object which is the shelter of the three modes, beginning with sattva. Time is an inert object which is devoid of the three modes. That which is accomplished by human effort and is designated by such words as adRSTa is karma. Their characteristics are as follows: Out of these five the first four—the Lord, the jIva, time, and prakRti—are nitya, or eternal (with no beginning or end). The jIva, time, and prakRti are under the control of the Lord. Karma is without beginning, anAdi, but has an end (vinAzI), just like pre-non-existence, prAgabhAvavat.”

Sometimes it is considered that curiosity awakens in a resident of the spiritual world to taste something he has not experienced, and this is the seed of falling down. Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 2.1.290 rules out the possibility of their being more attached to their own interest than to that of the Lord:

Atma-koTi-guNaM kRSNe premANaM paramaM gatAH
nityAnanda-guNAH sarve nitya-siddhA mukundavat

“All the eternally perfected devotees have eternal and blissful qualities just like Lord Mukunda. Their supreme love for KRSNa is millions and millions of times more than their love for their own self or body.”

Moreover, Raghunatha Das Gosvami explains the vision of the devotees of the Lord in his Vraja Vilasa Stava 39:

tRNIkRtya sphAram sukha-jalAdbhi-sAraM sphuTamapi
svakIyaM premNA ye bhara-nikara-namrA mura-ripoH
sukhAbhAsam zAzvat prathayitum alaM prauDh-kutukAd
yataste tAn dhanyAn param iha bhaje mAdhava-gaNAn

“We worship the greatly fortunate devotees of Lord MAdhava who consider the ocean of their own happiness as a blade of straw, and who are humble because of love for KRSNa, the enemy of the Mura demon. By their supreme love dalliances, they eternally exhibit that material pleasure is only a shadow of pleasure, and pleasure in kRSNa-prema is an ocean.”

Indeed, to consider that the eternal associates of the Lord would place their own interest before the Lord’s is unimaginable. Baladeva writes in his Govinda Bhasya on VedAnta SUtra 4.4.22:

na ca sarvezvaraH zrI hariH svAdhina muktaM svalokAt-kadAcit pAtyitumicchet mukto vA kadAcit taM jIhased iti zakyaM saGkitum.

“One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord.”

Sometimes it is proposed that what appears to us as having fallen since time immemorial is but a fraction of a moment in the time of Goloka, and thus there is simultaneously falling and non-falling. However, Sarupa states in the Brihat Bhagavatamrita 2.6.369:

ato vraja-strI-kuca-kuGkumAcitam
manoramaM tat-pada-paGkaja-dvayam
kadApi kenApi nijendriyAdinA
na hAtum Ize lava-lezam apyaham

“Therefore, I am unable by any of my senses to give up the beautiful lotus feet of Lord KRSNa which are smeared with kuMkuma from the breasts of the Vraja damsels, even for a fraction of a moment.”

The following excerpts are from another comprehensive document on the subject matter. There is some repetition from the previous post, my apologies.

The origin of the jiva is not the spiritual, but the material world:
It is said in Srimad Bhagavata—

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoH sattvaM ca mizraM na ca kAla vikramaH
na yatra mAyA kim utApare harer anuvratA yatra surAsurArcitAh (2.9.10).

“In Vaikuntha there is no mode of passion, darkness or mixed goodness, there is no power of time, and no maya (who can pull a devotee out of the spiritual sky).”

In Srimad Bhagavata 4.28.52 it is mentioned that the jiva was with God, but according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti in his ‘Sarartha Darsini’-commentary the jiva here only merged with Him as Mahavisnu during the universal dissolution. Sri Jiva Gosvami declares the same in his comment on Srimad Bhagavata’s verses 4.28.54 and 64:

svasthaH prAdhAnikAveza rahitaH san tad vyabhicAreNa pUrvam IzvarAkhya haMsa bahirmukhatayA naSTAM tirohitAM smRtiM jAnAsi api kiM sakhAyaM mAm iti api smarasi cAtmAnam avijJAta sakham ityatra pUrvoktaM sakhyAnusandhAnam punar Apa iti. atra punaH zabdena smRti zabdena tad vismRter nAzAdi khaNDanaM vivakSitam kintu anAdyAvRtasyApi sakhyasya svAbhAvikatvAd anAditvam ityeva kRta hAnya kRtAbhyAgama prasaGgAt

“Being svasthah means ‘being free from the possession of material nature” tad vyabhicarena means ‘not devoted to the swan called isvara’. Because of this the memory was lost - nastam. punar apa means ‘regained the consciousness of friends’ as was stated in words such as janasi kim sakhayam mam (4.28.52). Here the use of the words ‘punah’ and smrtih are used to indicate the disappearance or destruction of forgetfulness. But that forgetfulness is certainly beginningless although the friendship, which is also covered without beginning, is natural.”

In Srimad Bhagavata 4.29.70 it is said: nAhaM mameti bhAvo’yaM puruSe vyavadhIyate yAvad buddhimano’kSArtha guNa vyUho hyanAdimAn ‘The feeling of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ (with regard to the physical body), inherent in the jiva, does not cease, so long the subtle body - which consists of the intelligence, the mind etc., and which exists since beginningless time - remains.”

In Srimad Bhagavata 5.26.3 it is said: hyAnAdyavidyayA kRta kAmAnAM, due to ignorance, the living beings have been cherishing lusty desires since beginningless time.”

In Srimad Bhagavata 6.5.11 bhU kSetraM jIva saMjJaM yad anAdi nija bandhanam. “The earth is a field known as the jiva who has been conditioned since beginningless time”, and Srimad Bhagavata 11.2.37 bhayaM dvitIyAbhinivezataH syAd IzAd apetasya viparyayo’smRtiH, the apeta, or turning away from God by the jiva is anadi, beginningless and that also counts for fear bhaya. asmrti means, according to Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti, not forgetting Krsna, but the own spiritual nature. viparyaya means taking something for what it isn’t, like identifying oneself with the body, which one is not.

Srimad Bhagavata (11.11.4) says: ekasyaiva mamAMzasya jIvasyaiva mahAmate; bandho’syAvidyayAnAdir vidyayA ca tathetaraH Sri Krsna tells Uddhava: ‘Although I am one, O highly intelligent one, it is in relation to the jiva alone, which is a reflection of Mine, that bondage has existed from beginningless time.”

Srimad Bhagavata 11.11.7 yo’vidyayA yuk sa tu nitya-baddho vidyAmayo yaH sa tu nitya muktaH — “The ignorant soul is eternally bound and the soul filled with knowledge is eternally free.”

And Vedanta Sutra 2.1.35: na karma vibhAgAd iti cennAnAditvAt “If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality within the world, because everyone must have had the same karma in the beginning of creation, then that is not true, for karma is beginningless.”

The Upanisads say: bhogArtham sRSTir ityanye krIDArtham iti cApare devasyaiSa svabhAvo’yam Apta kAmasya kA spRhA “Some say that He created the world for His enjoyment and others say for His play. That is simply His nature. He is, after all, Self-satisfied - which desires has He left to fulfill?”

In the Padma Purana, Uttara Khanda, Lord Siva tells His wife Parvati: krIDArthaM deva devena sRSTA mAyA jaganmayI - “The God of Gods has created this worldly illusion for His play.”

prabhu kohe sab jIva mukti yabe pAbe; ei to brahmANDa tabe sab zUnya hobe.
haridAsa bole ‘tomAra yAvat martye sthiti; tAvat sthAvare jaGgama sarva jIva jAti.
sab mukti kori tumi vaikuNThe pAThAibe; sUkSma jIve punaH karme udbuddha koribe.
sei jIva hobe ihA sthAvara jaGgama; tAhAte bhoriye brahmANDa jeno pUrva sama

“Mahaprabhu said: “If all the conditioned souls would attain liberation the world would become empty.” Haridasa replied: “As long as You are in this mortal world You will liberate all the mobile and immobile creatures and send them to Vaikuntha. Then You will again engage subtle (dormant, new) living entities in further fruitive activities, and these mobile and immobile living entities will fill the world up like before” [C.C. Antya 3,77-80]

This is in line with Visnu dharmottara Purana (1.81.12): ekaikasmin nare muktiM kalpe kalpe gate dvija; abhaviSyajjagacchUnyaM kAlasyAder abhAvataH “Because time has no beginning, the world would be empty by now if only one person per kalpa had been liberated.” Markandeya answers: (1.81.13) jIvasyAnyasya sargena nare muktim upAgate; acintya zaktir bhagavAn jagat pUrayate sadA “When someone is liberated, the Supreme Lord, who has inconceivable potency, creates another jiva and and thus always keeps the world full.”

Priti Sandarbha 1: atha jIvazca tadIyo’pi tajjJAnasaMsargAbhAva-yuktatvena tan mAyA parAbhUtaH sannAtma svarUpa jJAna lopAn mAyA kalpitopAdhyAvezAccanAdi saMsAra duHkena sambadhyate......paramAtma vaibhava gaNane ca tat taTastha zakti rUpAnAM cid eka rasAnAm apyanAdi paratattva jJAna saMsargAbhAva mAyA tad vaimukhya labdha cchidrayA tan mAyayAvRtasva svarUpa jJAnAnAM tayaive sattva rajas tamomaye jaDe prAdhAne racitAtma bhAvAnAM jIvAnAM saMsAra duHkaM ca jJApitam “Although the jiva is part of the Lord, he is without knowledge of Him and this deficiency has no beginning. Because of this he is covered by maya. Thus he is united with the beginningless material miseries because his knowledge of his svarupa is covered and he is absorbed in false designations......From beginningless time he is bereft of knowledge of the Supreme truth and thus he has attained the fault of aversion towards God, whose maya covers over his knowledge of his constitutional position and fills him with feelings created by maya.”

Bhakti Sandarbha 121 says: muktA api prapadyante punaH samsAra vAsanAm yadyacintya mahAzaktau bhagavatyaparAdhinaH. “Offenders to the Lord will again get material desires, even if they are liberated souls.” Here the word ‘again’ proves that this verse does not apply to eternally liberated souls who fall from the spiritual world. The offenders mentioned here are mayavadis that are described in Srimad Bhagavata 10.2.32. Aruhya kRcchreNa paraM padaM tataH patantyadho’nAdRta yuSmad aGghrayaH. But this does not count for the bhaktas, as is described in the next verse 10.2.33 tathA na te mAdhava tAvakAH kvacid bhrazyanti mArgAt tvayi baddha sauhRdAH. Srila Jiva Gosvami comments: yathA pUrve ArUDha parama pAdatvAvasthAto’pi bhRzyanti, tathA tAvakA mArgAt sAdhanAvasthAto’pi na bhRzyanti, kim uta mRgyAt tvatta ityarthaH “mayavadis fall down even from the stage of perfection, but even in the stage of sadhana Your devotees do not fall down, what to speak of after attaining You?”

Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti’s commentary on Srimad Bhagavata 3.7.10 — tatra bhagavataH pRSTha sthitayA anAdyavidyayA tamaH svarUpayA anAdi vaimukhya rUpa bhagavat pRSTha-sthAnAM jIvAnAM jJAnam yal lupyate tasya na vastutvam kAraNam nApi prayojanaM kim apy asti “Ignorance, which is beginningless, is situated on the Lord’s back. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the Lord’s back and are non devotees. Their non devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered.”

Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti’s commentary on Srimad Bhagavata 10.87.32 also shows no jivas that have fallen from the spiritual world: te ca meghopamayA avidyayA AvRtA baddha jIvA eke anye bhaktimajjJAnena tad AvaraNonmuktA mukta jIvAH anye kevalayA pradhAnIbhUtayA vA bhaktyA tadAvaraNonmocita prApita cid Anandamaya bhajanopayogi zarIraH siddha bhaktA anye avidyA yoga rahitA eva nitya pArSadA iti caturvidhAH — “There are four types of jivas: 1. baddha— those under the influence of the avidya potency. 2. mukta— those liberated from the covering of avidya through bhakti, but who have not yet attained a spiritual body. These are also called jivanmuktas or liberated while living in the material body. 3. siddha— Those who have attained a siddha deha on the strength of bhakti. These are called baddha muktas or those liberated after being in bondage. 4. nitya parsadas— Those eternally free from contact with ignorance. They are also called nitya siddhas or nitya muktas.”

In his comment on Bhagavad Gita 13.20 Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti declares that the conditioning of the conditioned souls is beginningless— mAyA jIvayor api macchaktitvena anAditvAt tayoH saMzleSo’py anAdir iti bhAvaH. “Illusion and the conditioned souls are both My energies. They are both beginningless and they have been interconnected since beginningless time as well.” The word dvesa in Bhagavad Gita 7.27 does not mean envy of Krsna, for you cannot be envious of someone you don’t know. In Brhad Bhagavatamrta Sarupa calls himself a newcomer, ‘nutna’ (dUre’stu tAvad vArteyaM tatra nitya nivAsinAm; na tiSThed anusandhAnaM nUtnAnAM mAdRzAm api, B.B. 2.6.359) 2.6.366 tallokasya svabhAvo’yaM kRSNa saGgaM vinApi yat; bhavet tatraiva tiSThAsA na cikIrSA ca kasyacit — “Nobody desires to leave Goloka.”

Assuming that previously fallen jivas that return to the spiritual world are superior to those who have stayed, because they are shocked by their experience, is a speculation and an offence to the nitya muktas, as if it is better to fall down than to stay and as if the ‘returners’ can anyway remember their ordeal in the material world when they return. That would make devotion out of fear of punishment greater than spontaneous loving devotion, and would really make the spiritual world into a concentration-camp. Regarding free will, this is gradually given up in the course of surrender. A siddha bhakta will never misuse this free will because his surrender is irreversible. When the sadhana siddha jiva attains the spiritual world he remembers nothing of the material world, for his subtle body has been dissolved through the transcendental process of bhakti.

Regarding the fall of Jay and Vijay: The feeling of enmity they acquired for the Lord was not because of the Kumaras’ curse, but by the will of the Lord. Even so, the Lord did not consider them His enemies. He just wanted to enjoy fighting with them. One should not think that Jay and Vijay chose to become the Lord’s enemies so that they could finish the curse quickly, because great devotees like them do not desire even salokya mukti without bhakti. And with bhakti they are willing even to go to hell (Sr.Bhag. 3.15.48 - nAtyantikaM vigaNayanty.) They wanted to please the Lord by fighting with Him, but they did not literally chose to become the Lord’s enemies so that they could give pleasure to Him. Such a desire is undevotional. Srila Jiva Gosvami says that their inimical feelings were not real bu

t feigned (abhasa). They entered into demoniac bodies but remained untouched within.

Regarding Citraketu, although he offended Parvati-devi, he did not fall into material life. Even in a demon’s body, as Vrtrasura, he recited wonderful prayers to the Lord.

Concluding: there is no scriptural evidence for the jivas falling from the spiritual sky, it is not supported by our acaryas, nor by those of any other sampradaya, the spiritual world would not be Vaikuntha, the fearless abode, nor would it be free from maya.

Another consideration besides the extensive scriptural evidence is that no-one anywhere, whether Gaudiya Matha, Babajis, Gosvamis, Sri Sampradaya or wherever, considers that anyone falls from the spiritual world -- besides some of the followers of Bhaktivedanta Swami. Even they are not in agreement over this. I am now posting some statements from Bhaktivedanta in regards to whether people fall down from Vaikuntha or not.

“Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.29, purport)

“The jiva potency, or the ksetrajna-sakti of the Lord, has the tendency to be overpowered by the external potency, avidya-karma-samjna, and in this way he is placed in the awkward circumstances of material existence. The living entity cannot be forgetful of his real identity unless influenced by the avidya potency.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.7.5, purport)

“The living entities in the material world are forgetful of their eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This forgetfulness is called avidya, or nescience. The avidya-sakti, the avidya potency of the material world, provokes fruitive activity. Although this avidya-sakti (material energy, or nescience) is also an energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is especially intended to keep the living entities in a state of forgetfulness.”

(Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya 6.154, purport)

“The word dhama is significant. Dhama refers to the place where the Supreme Personality of Godhead resides. In the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.1.1) it is said, dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyam param dhimahi. In the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no influence of material energy (dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam).”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.17, purport)

“From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamaya, not mahamaya. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.1.35, purport)

“The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26, purport)

“Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there. All these incidents, therefore, were designed by the Lord Himself for the sake of His pastimes in the material world. Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval. Otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuntha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse. The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: "All glories unto you." A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.29, purport)

“This incident, therefore, proves that those who have once entered a Vaikuntha planet can never fall down. The case of Jaya and Vijaya is not a falldown; it is just an accident.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.12, purport)

“Even if on

e reaches the post of Indra, Candra, or any other demigod, he must be dissolved at a certain stage. A devotee is never interested in such temporary pleasure. From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.15.48, purport)

“A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.19, purport)

“There are Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual world, and there are devotees who are all liberated. These devotees are aksara, which means they do not fall down into the material world. They remain in the spiritual world of the Vaikunthas.”

(Teachings of Lord Kapiladeva, verse 6)

“This ordinary living being is of two kinds-nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other is eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.11.12, purport)

“The expansions of His separated forms are called living entities, and these living entities are classified according to the energies of the Lord. They are divided into two classes-eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature, and therefore they do not have any experience of material life. They are eternally engaged in Krsna consciousness, or devotional service to the Lord, and they are counted among the associates of Krsna.”

(Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 10)

“The living entities are divided into two categories-the eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy. This is described in Bhagavad-gita: daivi hy ena guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya "This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome." (Bg. 7.14) The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy.”

(Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya 22.15-15, purport)

“Amongst the devotees of the Lord there are several divisions, mainly nitya-siddhas and sadhana-siddhas. The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere, even though they sometimes come onto the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. The sadhana-siddha devotees are chosen from the conditioned souls.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.3.26, purport)

“The fact is that those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in one of the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing over many places across this earthly planet, so krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continuously, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.”

(Krishna-book, Chapter 28)

In concluding, to leave you all with a puzzled smile, I'd like to present the GBC's resolution in this regard, as it appears in ISKCON Laws (1997, 28.3/1):

Vaikuntha is that place from which no one ever falls down. The living entity belongs to Lord Krsna's marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). On this we all agree. The origin of the conditioned life of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore best answer questions about that origin by repeating the answers Srila Prabhupada gave when such questions were asked of him:

“The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (see Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

No ISKCON devotee shall present or publish any contrary view as conclusive in any class or seminar or any media (print, video, electronic, etc.).

Go figure.

Intrigued by Jiva Goswami's verse 47 in Paramaatma-sandarbha where he is mentioning two types of tatashtah-shakti-jivas
(tadevamananta eva jiivaakhyaas tatasthah shaktayah. Tatra taasaam vargadvayam. Eko vargo'naaditah eva bhagavadunmukhah, anyas tvanaaditah eva bhagavat-paranmukhah-svabhaavatastadiiya jnaana-bhaavaat tadiiya-jnaanaabhaavaacca.) I approached one time Pandit Shri Anantadasa Babaji to ask him some clarification and he told me that the nitya-baddha-tatashtah-shakti-jivas have been under the influence of the material energy since beginningless time and the nitya-siddha-tatashtah-shakti-jivas have been in the spiritual world since beginningless time. When I asked him to give me some exemples of nitya-siddha-tatashtah-shakti-jivas he named some of them of which I can only remember Jaya and Vijaya.

Jai Radhe Krishna!

Madhavananda Prabhu ... I'd love to be with you in the picture (on the right side! )

Some queries regarding the nitya-siddhas and nitya-baddhas:

1) The word nitya-baddha indicates that the jiva is eternally in bondage.. Does this mean that his bondage will never end? Or does this only indicate that the bondage is beginingless but will end in future?

2) Regarding the fall of Jaya/Vijaya.. If we say that it's Lord's lila then people start finding excuse in doing whatever they want to say that whatever they are doing is also a part of His lila... Comments please .. ?

3) Jaya/Vijaya became Hirankashyapu and Hiranyaaksha. Is'nt it? And they caused trouble to so many saintly jivas...Did the All Merciful and All Loving attractor of Gopis Sri Krishna really want this
:withstupid:

Dear Prabhus Please enlighten this ignorant soul with the light of your scriptural knowledge...

Hari Hari....

QUOTE

1) The word nitya-baddha indicates that the jiva is eternally in bondage.. Does this mean that his bondage will never end? Or does this only indicate that the bondage is beginingless but will end in future?

There is certainly an end to the bondage. The idea is, "we have been in bondage since time beginningless". This is the import of "nitya-baddha".

QUOTE

2) Regarding the fall of Jaya/Vijaya.. If we say that it's Lord's lila then people start finding excuse in doing whatever they want to say that whatever they are doing is also a part of His lila... Comments please ..

If Vishnu comes and slays them in the end, then we sing their praise. As for the case of Jaya and Vijaya, this is related in the Bhagavata. I doubt people considered their deeds a part of Vishnu's lila during their presence, nor did they consider it as such themselves, being covered over by the illusion of Vishnu.

QUOTE

3) Jaya/Vijaya became Hirankashyapu and Hiranyaaksha. Is'nt it? And they caused trouble to so many saintly jivas...Did the All Merciful and All Loving attractor of Gopis Sri Krishna really want this

Yes, they were "cursed" to take three births as demons, namely as Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu with Varahadeva and Narasingha, Ravana and Kumbhakarna with Ramacandra, and Sisupala and Dantavakra with Sri Krishna. After this, they took an additional birth as Jagai and Madhai to be delivered by Sriman Nityananda Raya.

His pastimes have many aspects to them, as He accomplishes many tasks at once in His pastimes. Simultaneously He fulfills his own divine desires, brings joy to His devotees, vanquishes the demoniac class of men, establishes the religious principles and bestows the results of both pious and sinful activities to the living entities in this world. As for the anxiety it caused to His saintly devotees, this was to purify them from any remaining impurities, as well as to increase their attachment to and depencence upon Him.

Quote Som:'' The word nitya-baddha indicates that the jiva is eternally in bondage.. Does this mean that his bondage will never end? Or does this only indicate that the bondage is beginingless but will end in future?''

There are four types of activities or objects,nitya,anitya,anAdi and ananta.

Nitya are those which have no beginning and no end,like Krsna.
Anitya are those which have a beginning and end,such as the body.
AnAdi are those which have no beginning but have an end,such as the material conditioning of the jiva.
Ananta are those which have a beginning but no end,such as the liberation of a jiva from the material world.

When the jiva is called nitya-badha it actually means anAdi baddha,otherwise he could never achieve liberation.Philosophers sometimes use the word nitya for anAdi because people are more familiar with it.

Jai Radhe!

Thanks very much Prabhus for your enlightening answers!

QUOTE

As for the anxiety it caused to His saintly devotees, this was to purify them from any remaining impurities, as well as to increase their attachment to and depencence upon Him.

I agree with you fully here Madhavananda Ji!

Some more queries please..

QUOTE

I doubt people considered their deeds a part of Vishnu's lila during their presence, nor did they consider it as such themselves, being covered over by the illusion of Vishnu.

How can a Jiva know what kind of cover He is in? For example Jaya and Vijaya came to fulfill the wish of the Hari.. Taking this as an instance can't people say that they are also here to fulfill the wish of the Keshava like Jaya and Vijaya and they can't come out of the illusion as Vishnu himself wanted this.
?

In fact one of my friends (not a pure devotee - of course!) told this during our discussion

That's the reason for this stupid question...
:withstupid: again!

Hari Hari...

QUOTE

Tell your friend that I am a self realized sage who is an incarnation of a wisdom tree in the spiritual world and I can read from the subtle cosmic books in the ether that he is a regular baddha-jiva just like the rest of the folks out there.

I don't think he is one of those one-in-a-zillion persons who might be so. The very proof of it is that he is asking about this. One who is placed in illusion because of the specific desire of Vishnu is not aware of it.

QUOTE(Som @ Aug. 20 2002,02:18)

People can say that,but it will not help them.

Visnu or anyone else did not put the jivas in illusion. They are in illusion anAdi.Try to understand word 'anAdi'.It is very important.

The inimical feelings of Jaya and Vijaya were not real but only a shadow (abhasa).They entered into demoniac bodies but remained untouched within.They remained devotees.

Also,Krsna generates distaste for materialistic activities in his devotees(SB.6.11.23).

You can ask your friend about his taste/distaste.

sa yad ajayд tv ajдm anuзayйta guлдаз ca juсan
bhajati sarьpatда tad anu mеtyum apeta-bhagaщ
tvam uta jahдsi tдm ahir iva tvacam дtta-bhago
mahasi mahйyase ’сцa-guлite ’parimeya-bhagaщ

"The illusory material nature attracts the minute living entity to embrace her, and as a result he assumes forms composed of her qualities. Subsequently, he loses all his spiritual qualities and must undergo repeated deaths. You, however, avoid the material energy in the same way that a snake abandons its old skin. Glorious in Your possession of eight mystic perfections, You enjoy unlimited opulences." SB

**he loses all his spiritual qualities

(sat, cit, ananda?)

**You, however, avoid the material energy

Lord in brahman? Soul fall, Lord not?

The translation is wrong.

**other words, souls don't fall from the spiritual world,

**tatastha

Am answer late, it is write about this so many.

Am take you citation from SBT. No needs citation this is simple logic. Lord go some souls in material world? What needs? Him it is needs? He dewelop souls? Souls burn? Souls dewelops?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Aug. 22 2002,09:19)

Am take you citation from SBT. No needs citation this is simple logic. Lord go some souls in material world? What needs? Him it is needs? He dewelop souls? Souls burn? Souls dewelops?

I assume SBT refers to either Bhaktivinoda or Bhaktisiddhanta. There are no references in this thread from either of them.

Unfortunately logic is a fallacious tool for exploring that which is beyond our comprehension, and it becomes particularly fallacious when it goes against the verdict of the scriptures (ie. "citation"). "Citation" is our ultimate pramana, and logic which explains and supports the "citation" is acceptable, whereas logic which goes against the "citation" is fallacious, since it does not deduct its pattern of reasoning from a transcendent source.

The manifesting of baddha-jivas is a part of the Lord's sristi-lila (pastime of creation). The multi-aspected Absolute Truth rejoices variety in various ways. If someone argues, "He is cruel", to that we respond, "He is cruel to Himself only, for the souls are parcels of His potency." This variety facilitates the experience of ultimate joy.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Aug. 22 2002,14:04)

QUOTE(kailasa @ Aug. 22 2002,09:19)

Am take you citation from SBT. No needs citation this is simple logic. Lord go some souls in material world? What needs? Him it is needs? He dewelop souls? Souls burn? Souls dewelops?

**The translation is wrong.

This is nice citation from sastra.

Take you translations. She is wery open sense.

QUOTE

Take you translations. She is wery open sense.

I am sorry, but I do not understand at all what you are trying to express.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Aug. 30 2002,09:04)

sa yad ajayд tv ajдm anuзayйta guлдаз ca juсan
bhajati sarьpatда tad anu mеtyum apeta-bhagaщ
tvam uta jahдsi tдm ahir iva tvacam дtta-bhago
mahasi mahйyase ’сцa-guлite ’parimeya-bhagaщ

"The illusory material nature attracts the minute living entity to embrace her, and as a result he assumes forms composed of her qualities. Subsequently, he loses all his spiritual qualities and must undergo repeated deaths. You, however, avoid the material energy in the same way that a snake abandons its old skin. Glorious in Your possession of eight mystic perfections, You enjoy unlimited opulences." SB

Madhava
Webservant

The translation is wrong.

*********

You right trnslations please.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Aug. 30 2002,09:04)

For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval.

Since Kеслa is not subject to birth, death, old age or disease, and since we are part and parcel of Kеслa, we also are not subject to birth, death, old age and disease, but we have become subject to these illusory problems because of our forgetfulness of Kеслa and our position as His eternal servants (jйvera ‘svarьpa’ haya—kеслera ‘nitya-dдsa’).

sarva-bhьtдtma-bhьtдya
kеслдyдnanya-darзine
deyaа здntдya pьrлдya
dattasyдnantyam icchatд

SYNONYMS

sarva—of all; bhьta—beings; дtma—the Soul; bhьtдya—who comprises; kеслдya—to Lord Kеслa; ananya—never as separate; darзine—who sees; deyam—(honor) should be given; здntдya—to the peaceful; pьrлдya—perfectly complete; dattasya—of what is given; дnantyam—unlimited increase; icchatд—by him who desires.

TRANSLATION
Anyone who wishes the honor he gives to be reciprocated infinitely should honor Kеслa, the perfectly peaceful and perfectly complete Soul of all beings, the Supreme Lord, who views nothing as separate from Himself.

According to Зrй Nдrada Paпcarдtra,
yat taцa-sthaа tu cid-rьpaа
sva-saаvedyдd vinirgatam
raпjitaа guлa-rдgeлa
sa jйva iti kathyate

“The marginal potency, who is spiritual by nature, who emanates from the self-cognizant saаvit energy, and who becomes tainted by his attachment to the modes of material nature, is called the jйva.’’

Although the jйva soul is also an expansion of Lord Kеслa, he is distinguished from Kеслa’s independent Viслu expansions by his constitutional position on the margin between spirit and matter. As the Mahдvarдha Purдлa explains,

svдазaз cдtha vibhinnдазa
iti dvidhд зa iсyate
aазino yat tu sдmarthyaа
yat-svarьpaа yathд sthitiщ
tad eva nдлu-mдtro ’pi
bhedaа svдаздазinoщ kvacit
vibhinnдазo ’lpa-зaktiщ syдt
kiпcit sдmarthya-mдtra-yuk

“The Supreme Lord is known in two ways: in terms of His plenary expansions and His separated expansions. Between the plenary expansions and Their source of expansion there is never any essential difference in terms of either Their capabilities, forms or situations. The separated expansions, on the other hand, possess only minute potency, being endowed only to a small extent with the Lord’s powers.”

yat taцa-sthaа tu cid-rьpaа
sva-saаvedyдd vinirgatam
raпjitaа guлa-rдgeлa
sa jйva iti kathyate

“The taцa-stha potency should be understood as emanating from the Lord’s saаvit [knowledge] energy. This emanation, called the jйva, becomes conditioned by the qualities of material nature.”

Hlдdinй is His aspect of bliss; sandhinй, of eternal existence; and samvit, of cognizance, which is also accepted as knowledge.

The essence of the samvit potency is knowledge that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Lord Kеслa. All other kinds of knowledge, such as the knowledge of Brahman, are its components.

“The three portions of the spiritual potency are called hlдdinй [the bliss portion], sandhinй [the eternity portion] and samvit [the knowledge portion]. We accept knowledge of these as full knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

PURPORT

To acquire knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one must take shelter of the samvit potency of the Supreme Lord.

Similarly in the spiritual world, although the spirit is one, there are also varieties, saаvit... There are... These three qualities, there it is known... What is that called? Now, just now I forget. Saаvit sandinй. Sandinй saаvit. That is described in Caitanya-caritдmеta, there also, varieties. So the Mдyдvдdй philosophers, they have no information of the spiritual world.

In Зrйmad-Bhдgavatam (11.2.45), the symptoms of a topmost devotee are described as follows:

sarva-bhьteсu yaщ paзyed
bhagavad-bhдvam дtmanaщ
bhьtдni bhagavaty дtmany
eсa bhдgavatottamaщ

“The advanced devotee sees that all living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Everyone is in Kеслa, and Kеслa is also within everyone. Such a vision is possible only for a person who is very advanced in devotional service.”

Thus every living being is struggling hard in this material nature. Actually the living entity is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and when he surrenders unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he attains release from the ocean of birth and death. The Lord, being very kind to fallen souls, is always anxious to get the living entity out of the ocean of nescience. If the living entity understands his position and surrenders to the Lord, his life becomes successful.

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kеслa because he is the marginal energy of Kеслa and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kеслa has three varieties of energy.

Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul.

kеслa bhuli’ sei jйva anдdi-bahirmukha
ataeva mдyд tдre deya saаsдra-duщkha

SYNONYMS

kеслa bhuli’—forgetting Kеслa; sei jйva—that living entity; anдdi—from time immemorial; bahiщ-mukha—attracted by the external feature; ataeva—therefore; mдyд—illusory energy; tдre—to him; deya—gives; saаsдra-duщkha—miseries of material existence.

TRANSLATION

“Forgetting Kеслa, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [mдyд] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.

kеслam enam avehi tvam
дtmдnam akhilдtmanдm
jagad-dhitдya so ’py atra
dehйvдbhдti mдyayд

SYNONYMS

kеслam—in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; enam—this; avehi—just try to understand; tvam—you; дtmдnam—the soul; akhila-дtmanдm—of all living entities; jagat-hita-ya—the benefit of the whole universe; saщ—He; api—certainly; atra—here; dehй—a human being; iva—like; дbhдti—appears; mдyayд—by His internal potency.

TRANSLATION

“ ‘You should know Kеслa as the original soul of all дtmдs [living entities]. For the benefit of the whole universe, He has, out of His causeless mercy, appeared as an ordinary human being. He has done this with the strength of His own internal potency.’

The Supreme Personality of Godhead has three kinds of internal potency, namely, the hlдdinй-зakti, or pleasure potency, the sandhinй-зakti, or existential potency, and the samvit-зakti, or cognitive potency. In the Viслu Purдлa (1.12.69) the Lord is addressed as follows: “O Lord, You are the support of everything. The three attributes hlдdinй, sandhinй and samvit exist in You as one spiritual energy. But the material modes, which cause happiness, misery and mixtures of the two, do not exist in You, for You have no material qualities.”

In his thesis Bhagavat-sandarbha (103), Зrйla Jйva Gosvдmй explains the potencies of the Lord as follows: The transcendental potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by which He maintains His existence is called sandhinй. The transcendental potency by which He knows Himself and causes others to know Him is called samvit. The transcendental potency by which He possesses transcendental bliss and causes His devotees to have bliss is called hlдdinй.

The Lord and His devotees simultaneously perceive the hlдdinй potency directly by the power of the samvit potency.

When it is predominated by the sandhinй potency, it is perceivable as the existence of all that be. When predominated by the samvit potency, it is perceived as knowledge in transcendence. And when predominated by the hlдdinй potency, it is perceived as the most confidential love of Godhead. Viзuddha-sattva, the simultaneous manifestation of these three in one, is the main feature of the kingdom of God.

“ ‘The Supreme Personality of Godhead is sac-cid-дnanda-vigraha. This means that He originally has three potencies—the pleasure potency, the potency of eternality and the potency of knowledge. Together these are called the cit potency, and they are present in full in the Supreme Lord. For the living entities, who are part and parcel of the Lord, the pleasure potency in the material world is sometimes displeasing and sometimes mixed. This is not the case with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, because He is not under the influence of the material energy or its modes.’

After nirvдлa, or material cessation, there is the manifestation of spiritual activities, or devotional service to the Lord, known as Kеслa consciousness. In the words of the Bhдgavatam, svarьpeлa vyavasthitiщ: this is the “real life of the living entity.” Mдyд, or illusion, is the condition of spiritual life contaminated by material infection. Liberation from this material infection does not mean destruction of the original eternal position of the living entity. Pataпjali also accepts this by his words kaivalyaа svarьpa-pratiсцhд vд citi-зaktir iti. This citi-зakti, or transcendental pleasure, is real life. This is confirmed in the Vedдnta-sьtra (1.1.12) as дnanda-mayo ’bhyдsдt. This natural transcendental pleasure is the ultimate goal of yoga and is easily achieved by execution of devotional service, or bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga will be vividly described in the Seventh Chapter of Bhagavad-gйtд.

“The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions.

PURPORT

The internal potency of the Lord, which is called cit-зakti or antaraмga-зakti, exhibits variegatedness in the transcendental Vaikuлцha cosmos. Besides ourselves, there are unlimited numbers of liberated living beings who associate with the Personality of Godhead in His innumerable features. The material cosmos displays the external energy, in which the conditioned living beings are provided all liberty to go back to the Personality of Godhead after leaving the material tabernacle.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 02 2002,10:33)

The translation is wrong.

*********

You right trnslations please.

sa yad ajayA tv ajAm anuzayIta guNAMz ca juSan
bhajati sarUpatAM tad anu mRtyum apeta-bhagaH
tvam uta jahAsi tAm ahir iva tvacam Atta-bhago
mahasi mahIyase ’STa-guNite ’parimeya-bhagaH
“Because of the influence of the material energy, he (the living entity) is in close contact with its qualities, and assuming them, he shares its qualities, adopting its forms, and consequently meets with death, deprived of good fortune. You, however, leave it aside just as a snake discards its skin, being endowed with all good fortune. You are mighty with your eight qualities of immeasurable majesty.”

The idea that the material nature attracts the living entity from a transcendent position under her control is nowhere implied in the original text.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 02 2002,10:34)

For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval.

...

The internal potency of the Lord, which is called cit-?akti or antara?ga-?akti, exhibits variegatedness in the transcendental Vaiku?ha cosmos. Besides ourselves, there are unlimited numbers of liberated living beings who associate with the Personality of Godhead in His innumerable features. The material cosmos displays the external energy, in which the conditioned living beings are provided all liberty to go back to the Personality of Godhead after leaving the material tabernacle.

Please try to post only references which are clearly relevant to the discussion. Please also give a reference to the source of the passages you quote. It will also be good if you can strip out those Russian letters and replace them according to Harvard-Kyoto or just have regular letters on their place. They render much of the Sanskrit practically unreadable.

Dear Kailasaji,
We know English is not your first language, but I find it very difficult to understand what you are trying to prove. Can you try a bit more to be to the point.

QUOTE

PURPORT

To acquire knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one must take shelter of the samvit potency of the Supreme Lord.

Similarly in the spiritual world, although the spirit is one, there are also varieties, samvit... There are... These three qualities, there it is known... What is that called? Now, just now I forget.

Texts like this are not very helpful.

Having examined the lengthy text above, it appears as if it is stitched together from here and there from the Vedabase of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami without any references to what is what. For example, in the passage above, the "Purport" and the first sentence is from ACBS's commentary on CC 2.8.159, and following sentences are from a lecture on SB 2.9.13 given in 1972.

When the relevance of a passage is not clear, it is a good idea to take the time to write one sentence explaining why it is relevant. One thing you may also want to consider in your future postings is that we can't take the writings of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami as prominent evidence over the writings of the predecessor acaryas and particularly the six Gosvamis.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 02 2002,15:03)

Kеслa, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the cause of everything. In the Brahma-saаhitд it is clearly stated that Kеслa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes. Even the millions of incarnations are only His different expansions. Similarly, the living entities are also expansions of Kеслa.

Therefore the jйva-prakеti is called superior because the jйva has consciousness which is similar to the Lord’s. The Lord’s is supreme consciousness, however, and one should not claim that the jйva, the living entity, is also supremely conscious. The living being cannot be supremely conscious at any stage of his perfection, and the theory that he can be so is a misleading theory. Conscious he may be, but he is not perfectly or supremely conscious.

This is the beginning of the instruction by the Lord to the living entities who are bewildered by the influence of ignorance. Removal of ignorance involves the reestablishment of the eternal relationship between the worshiper and the worshipable and the consequent understanding of the difference between the part-and-parcel living entities and the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

The living entities belong to the superior nature, as it will be revealed in the Seventh Chapter. Although there is no difference between the energy and the energetic, the energetic is accepted as the Supreme, and energy or nature is accepted as the subordinate. The living entities, therefore, are always subordinate to the Supreme Lord, as in the case of the master and the servant, or the teacher and the taught. Such clear knowledge is impossible to understand under the spell of ignorance, and to drive away such ignorance the Lord teaches the Bhagavad-gйtд for the enlightenment of all living entities for all time.

*********

As this translation wrong, could not you give correct translation. Allegory there is used, therefore as it seems to me to deform sense told difficultly enough.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 02 2002,15:09)

Please try to post only references which are clearly relevant to the discussion. Please also give a reference to the source of the passages you quote.

OK.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 05 2002,10:23)

***kеслa bhuli’ sei jйva anдdi-bahirmukha
ataeva mдyд tдre deya saаsдra-duщkha

SYNONYMS

kеслa bhuli’—forgetting Kеслa; sei jйva—that living entity; anдdi—from time immemorial; bahiщ-mukha—attracted by the external feature; ataeva—therefore; mдyд—illusory energy; tдre—to him; deya—gives; saаsдra-duщkha—miseries of material existence.

TRANSLATION

“Forgetting Kеслa, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [mдyд] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.

***

It is right translations? Or wrong?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 05 2002,10:26)

Soul it is cit sakti, you undrstand?

QUOTE

As this translation wrong, could not you give correct translation.

The translation I gave above of Bhagavata 10.87.38 is about as literal as it gets while maintaining readability. Is that the translation to which you refer? I must apologize, but I did not exactly understand you.

QUOTE

anAdi—from time immemorial

...

It is right translations? Or wrong?

The very literal meaning of the word "anAdi" is "having no beginning, existing from eternity". That which has been without a beginning is certainly something which is "since time immemorial".

QUOTE

Soul it is cit sakti, you undrstand?

Not quite. Soul is tatastha-sakti-prakasa, a manifestation of the marginal energy. Cit-sakti refers to either the entire antaranga-sakti or its feature of consciousness.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 05 2002,10:35)

QUOTE

Soul it is cit sakti, you undrstand?

Not quite. Soul is tatastha-sakti-prakasa, a manifestation of the marginal energy. Cit-sakti refers to either the entire antaranga-sakti or its feature of consciousness.

Means word samvit?

Anadi it is cildris arguments. God enjoy send soul in material world?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 05 2002,10:21)

kеслam enam avehi tvam
дtmдnam akhilдtmanдm
jagad-dhitдya so ’py atra
dehйvдbhдti mдyayд

SYNONYMS

kеслam—in the Supreme Personality of Godhead; enam—this; avehi—just try to understand; tvam—you; дtmдnam—the soul; akhila-дtmanдm—of all living entities; jagat-hita-ya—the benefit of the whole universe; saщ—He; api—certainly; atra—here; dehй—a human being; iva—like; дbhдti—appears; mдyayд—by His internal potency.

TRANSLATION

“ ‘You should know Kеслa as the original soul of all дtmдs [living entities]. For the benefit of the whole universe, He has, out of His causeless mercy, appeared as an ordinary human being. He has done this with the strength of His own internal potency.’

****

It is right translations?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 02 2002,10:33)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Aug. 30 2002,09:04)

As this translation wrong, could not you give correct translation. Allegory there is used, therefore as it seems to me to deform sense told difficultly enough.

QUOTE

Anadi it is cildris arguments. God enjoy send soul in material world?

It is not a childish argument. "Without a beginning" is the meaning of the word.

Think about it -- if the bondage is beginningless, was there ever a time when God sent the soul into the material world?

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 05 2002,11:03)

Think about it -- if the bondage is beginningless, was there ever a time when God sent the soul into the material world?

“Forgetting Kеслa, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. ...

It is all right?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 05 2002,10:59)

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 02 2002,10:33)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Aug. 30 2002,09:04)

sa yad ajay? tv aj?m anu?ay?ta gu? ca ju?an
bhajati sar?pat? tad anu m?tyum apeta-bhaga?
tvam uta jah?si t?m ahir iva tvacam ?tta-bhago
mahasi mah?yase ’?a-gu?ite ’parimeya-bhaga?

"The illusory material nature attracts the minute living entity to embrace her, and as a result he assumes forms composed of her qualities. Subsequently, he loses all his spiritual qualities and must undergo repeated deaths. You, however, avoid the material energy in the same way that a snake abandons its old skin. Glorious in Your possession of eight mystic perfections, You enjoy unlimited opulences." SB

As this translation wrong, could not you give correct translation. Allegory there is used, therefore as it seems to me to deform sense told difficultly enough.

What do you mean? Look at the third posting of the third page, I gave you a rather literal translation there.

sa yad ajayA tv ajAm anuzayIta guNAMz ca juSan
bhajati sarUpatAM tad anu mRtyum apeta-bhagaH
tvam uta jahAsi tAm ahir iva tvacam Atta-bhago
mahasi mahIyase ’STa-guNite ’parimeya-bhagaH

“Because of the influence of the material energy, he (the living entity) is in close contact with its qualities, and assuming them, he shares its qualities, adopting its forms, and consequently meets with death, deprived of good fortune. You, however, leave it aside just as a snake discards its skin, being endowed with all good fortune. You are mighty with your eight qualities of immeasurable majesty.”

QUOTE

Allegory there is used, therefore as it seems to me to deform sense told difficultly enough.

I am very sorry Kailash, but I can't make any sense out of this sentence of yours. Yes, there is an allegory employed in the second half of the verse. Is it unclear to you?

I find it hard to follow what you're trying to express in this thread. Could you help me out by telling what you're trying to express? Are you trying to argue that people fall from the spiritual world, or where are you heading at? I admit, I am puzzled.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 05 2002,11:09)

Open Caiyanya Caritamrita, in right translations, or take yors translations/ If you speak wrong, take right? Am not andestend anoters letters, late am read and answer. Exuse, humble obeisances(?), humble dandavat

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 05 2002,11:08)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 05 2002,11:03)

Think about it -- if the bondage is beginningless, was there ever a time when God sent the soul into the material world?

“Forgetting K?a, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. ...

It is all right?

kRSNa bhuli sei jIva anAdi-bahirmukha means that the living entity's forgetfulness of Krishna is without a beginning. A very clear and direct understanding of this sentence.

[quote=Madhava,Sep. 05 2002,11:09][quote=kailasa,Sep. 05 2002,10:59][quote=kailasa,Sep. 02 2002,10:33][quote=Madhava,Aug. 30 2002,09:04][/quote]
sa yad ajay? tv aj?m anu?ay?ta gu? ca ju?an
bhajati sar?pat? tad anu m?tyum apeta-bhaga?
tvam uta jah?si t?m ahir iva tvacam ?tta-bhago
mahasi mah?yase ’?a-gu?ite ’parimeya-bhaga?[/quote]
OK, am home print original texsts.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 05 2002,11:17)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 05 2002,11:09)

I think I need a translation for Kailashji's writings.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 05 2002,11:21)

I think I need a translation for Kailashji's writings. :cool:

May be speak on sanskrit?

Mam mana bhva mad bhakto.

Ok/ anadi am sell for samvit. Samvit it is cit sacti. Samvit only all, not only jiva, but jiva same nature.

QUOTE

May be speak on sanskrit? Mam mana bhva mad bhakto.

That would be wonderful.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 05 2002,11:41)

I am sorry, but in club not knowing English and without the interpreter it is difficult to be guided.

TRANSLATION

“Forgetting Kеслa, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [mдyд] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.

CC. Madhya 20.117

TRANSLATION

“ ‘You should know Kеслa as the original soul of all дtmдs [living entities]. For the benefit of the whole universe, He has, out of His causeless mercy, appeared as an ordinary human being. He has done this with the strength of His own internal potency.’

CC. Madhya 20.162

God enjoy send soul in material world?

In a basis of the material world the desire of soul, instead of God lays. Undoubtedly that all souls fall here from the spiritual world, as their situation IS NOT ABSOLUTE. On yours it turns out what the souls were born in the material world? The god is perfect to it(him) not what for to send soul in the material world. What for it is necessary to him? But if the SOUL wants to simulate the God, for this purpose he and is created. You have not noticed what here all are engaged only in one - imitation of the God? The people want to create, to operate, to be beautiful, to have THE opinion? Or it not so? It is THEIR desire, in it there is NO desire of the God.

As the soul is a part of the God, and the God corrects by everything, and some as have such desire. Anadi means that very much for a long time. Anadi as means that the soul CAN And NOT COME BACK in the spiritual world. Or can not? She(it) can also many not come back. The god would want that they have returned, but if they DO NOT WANT, they remain here, Krisna respects tiny independence of soul.

By and large soul does not fall from the spiritual world, because she(it) here by nothing Influences. You also have not fallen in this sense.

"About your question: The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness is called Maya. There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use the moon appears to be changing, but in fact the moon is always the same. So as eternal servitors of Krishna--our constitutional position--we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. K.C. gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position. Please therefore, continue to chant faithfully, and Krishna will reveal Himself, by His Causeless Mercy, and you will know everything automatically. I shall, of course always be ready and anxious to answer any question you have."

Samvit means as a spiritual body, samvit means that you ALREADY HAVE relation, but they it is simple FOR YOU are latent, but pure devotee sees your ETERNAL attitudes with the God. Eternal means not having beginnings and not having of the end, how you consider?

"... The soul is a particle of consciousness. When she makes offence, turning away from service Krisna, she gets under authority maya. (and so on)..."

Brahma samhita 44. The comment SBT

"We search here for that have lost when participated in lilas Vaikuntha."

Premapradipa. SBT

“Forgetting Kеслa, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [mдyд] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.

CC. Madhya 20.117

Very clear sense - "Forgetting Kеслa, the living entity has been attracted ..."- Having forgotten the God the soul also was attracted maya. Answer even on one question -

***** God enjoy made soul in material world anadi? ***** It is perfect?

**When the relevance of a passage is not clear, it is a good idea to take the time to write one sentence explaining why it is relevant. One thing you may also want to consider in your future postings is that we can't take the writings of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami as prominent evidence over the writings of the predecessor acaryas and particularly the six Gosvamis.

**we can't take the writings of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami

I accept the letters AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, all statements in them base on sastra, it not the letters on village to the grandmother. Why you accept Goswamis and do not accept Prabhupada?

God speaks you - "soul is eternal", sastra speak - soul samvit sakti? That Goswamis write what soul it sat sakti? She sat sakti, and later receives cit sakti?

Your translation of a word anadi not means only "beginningless", please examples -

advitйya-rьpa, satya anдdi mahattva
tathдpi ‘ananta’ haya, ke bujhe se tattva?

“The Lord is glorified as one without a second and as the supreme truth who has no beginning. Therefore He is called Anantadeva [unlimited]. Who can understand Him?

(Caitanya-bhдgavata Дdi-khaлтa)

Anadi can specify eternity as. Or can not?

**kRSNa bhuli sei jIva anAdi-bahirmukha means that the living entity's forgetfulness of Krishna is without a beginning. A very clear and direct understanding of this sentence.

Has forgotten means "knew"? Or I again was mistaken?

the soul Means is in a hell anadi, and why she there is?

The soul it is not simple brahman - sat, soul it - sat, cit, ananda. It is correct? She not is sat, and then becomes also cit. She is eternal sat, cit, ananda. Goswami speak what the soul is energy sat, and then she becomes cit, so the God her "growth" in the material world?

***You, however, leave it aside just as a snake discards its skin, being endowed with all good fortune.

The soul falls, but the God remains, just as the snake creeps out from a skin. She creeps out from a skin, is present in view of what soul it always part of the God. An example with the snake and its(her) skin therefore is given. The snake does not lay in far from a skin. The soul falls, but the God remains is constant, just as snake, though she creeps out from the skin does not vary. Here sanskrit at all so is important, whether you saw how the snake changes a skin?

Зrйla Viзvanдtha Cakravartй interprets the first words of this prayer, jaya jaya, to mean “please reveal Your superexcellence.” The word jaya is repeated out of either reverence or joy.
“How should I reveal My excellence?” the Lord might ask.
The зrutis answer by requesting Him to mercifully destroy the ignorance of all living beings and attract them to His lotus feet.
The Lord says, “But Mдyд, who imposes ignorance on the jйvas, is full of good qualities [gеbhйta-guлдm]. Why should I oppose her?”
“Yes,” the Vedas answer, “but she has taken on the three modes of nature to bewilder the conditioned souls and make them falsely identify with their material bodies. Her modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, moreover, are tainted [doсa-gеbhйta] because You are not manifest in their presence.”
The зrutis go on to address the Lord as ajita, implying that “only You cannot be conquered by Mдyд, whereas others, like Brahmд, are defeated by their own faults.”
The Lord responds, “But what proof do you have that she cannot conquer Me?”
“The proof lies in the fact that in Your original state You have already realized the perfection of all opulences.
At this point the Lord might object that merely destroying the ignorance of the jйvas will not suffice to bring them to His lotus feet, since the jйva soul, even after his ignorance is dispelled, cannot attain the Lord without engaging in devotional service. As the Lord states in His own words, bhaktyдham ekayд grдhyaщ: “I am attainable only through devotional service.””

QUOTE

I accept the letters AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, all statements in them base on sastra, it not the letters on village to the grandmother. Why you accept Goswamis and do not accept Prabhupada?

I think you are in the wrong place to debate the Goswamis. Why do you accept the words of Prabhupada over the words of the Goswamis?

prabhu ajnaya kaila saba sastrera vicara
vrajera nigudha bhakti karila pracara

The Goswamis carried out the preaching work of devotional service on the basis of an analytical study of all the confidential Vedic lieratures. This was in compliance with the order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can understand the most confidential devotional service of Vrndavana.
(C.C. Madhya-lila 1.34)

QUOTE

I accept the letters AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, all statements in them base on sastra, it not the letters on village to the grandmother. Why you accept Goswamis and do not accept Prabhupada?

You have the right to believe so. However, since we are not followers of Bhaktivedanta Swami, you cannot expect us to accept his view over the views of the sampradaya acaryas when the two seemingly differ. I could also say that you should accept the conclusion of any acarya from any traditional parivar or from any branch of the Gaudiya Math, where they all say that the soul never fell from Vaikuntha or Goloka, since their conclusion is based on sastra. Would you agree?

QUOTE

"We search here for that have lost when participated in lilas Vaikuntha."

Premapradipa. SBT

All these references are pretty much useless unless you quote them with the original Bengali or Sanskrit. God only knows the percentage of mistranslated sentences among all translations of Gaudiya granthas.

QUOTE

God speaks you - "soul is eternal", sastra speak - soul samvit sakti? That Goswamis write what soul it sat sakti? She sat sakti, and later receives cit sakti?

As far as I have studied, the soul is tatastha-sakti-prakasa, a manifestation of the marginal potency. If you can present statements where the soul is said to be manifest of another potency, feel free to quote them. However, please quote them with the original Sanskrit or Bengali.

QUOTE

Answer even on one question -

***** God enjoy made soul in material world anadi? ***** It is perfect?

Try to understand that there has never been a time when God made the soul.

QUOTE

Your translation of a word anadi not means only "beginningless", please examples -

advit?ya-r?pa, satya an?di mahattva
tath?pi ‘ananta’ haya, ke bujhe se tattva?

“The Lord is glorified as one without a second and as the supreme truth who has no beginning. Therefore He is called Anantadeva [unlimited]. Who can understand Him?

(Caitanya-bh?gavata ?di-kha?a)

Anadi can specify eternity as. Or can not?

The Lord is here called anAdi. He has no beginning. In other words, He has eternally existed. What was the purpose of this example?

QUOTE

Has forgotten means "knew"? Or I again was mistaken?

Yeah, mistaken.

Instead of arguing over translations and interpretations of interpretations, you would do well to re-read the second page of this thread starting right here and think about it.

QUOTE(Radhapada @ Sep. 06 2002,11:51)

QUOTE

I accept the letters AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, all statements in them base on sastra, it not the letters on village to the grandmother. Why you accept Goswamis and do not accept Prabhupada?

I think you are in the wrong place to debate the Goswamis. Why do you accept the words of Prabhupada over the words of the Goswamis?

Not over, am not write this.

**Why you accept Goswamis and do not accept Prabhupada?

Why?

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

However, since we are not followers of Bhaktivedanta Swami, you cannot expect us to accept his view over the views of the sampradaya acaryas when the two seemingly differ.

Am take you citations from sastra.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

any acarya from any traditional parivar or from any branch of the Gaudiya Math, where they all say that the soul never fell from Vaikuntha or Goloka, since their conclusion is based on sastra. Would you agree?

No.

SASTRA speaks about this. Krisnadasa Kawiraja. Would you agree? He is - any acarya?

QUOTE

**Why you accept Goswamis and do not accept Prabhupada?

Why?

Why you accept Bhaktivedanta Swami and not accept Jiva Gosvami, Visvanatha Cakravarti, Baladeva Vidyabhusana and the rest of the sampradaya acaryas? Take your time and read again the references I posted from Bhaktivedanta Swami (read them here) and consider whether there is an actual contradiction between him and the Gosvamis or merely unacquaintance with his teachings on your part. It is very clear from the references he presents that nobody falls from the spiritual world.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

Tatastha is sat sakti?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,04:43)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

No.

SASTRA speaks about this. Krisnadasa Kawiraja. Would you agree? He is - any acarya?

I already told you Kailash, anAdi means that which has no beginning. The forgetfulness of the jiva is without a beginning.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,04:45)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

Tatastha is sat sakti?

You tell me that.

Tatastha-sakti is tatastha-sakti. Sat, Cit and Ananda (sandhini, samvit and hladini) are the tree divisions of antaranga-sakti. Bahiranga-sakti is divided in eight and further twenty-four subdivisions. Tatastha-sakti is between the two.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

Try to understand that there has never been a time when God made the soul.

Ok. He is anadi send jiva in material world it is perfection?

[quote=Madhava,Sep. 07 2002,04:46]SASTRA speaks about this. Krisnadasa Kawiraja. Would you agree? He is - any acarya?[/quote]
I already told you Kailash, anAdi means that which has no beginning. The forgetfulness of the jiva is without a beginning.[/quote]
He is tape - soul attracted. attracted.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,04:49)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

Try to understand that there has never been a time when God made the soul.

Ok. He is anadi send jiva in material world it is perfection?

Yes, He is anAdi, the bondage of the jIva is anAdi, the material world is anAdi. That is perfect.

I hate to start repeating references I already posted, but I'll do it anyway since it appears you never read them. The bondage of the jIva is anAdi.

Bhagavad-gita 13.20 states:

prakRtiM puruSaM caiva
viddhy anAdI ubhAv api
vikArAMz ca guNAMz caiva
viddhi prakRti-sambhavAn

“You should know that both the material nature and the living entities are beginningless, and the consequent transformations of the three modes of nature are born of material nature too.”

Visvanatha comments on this verse:

mAya-jIvayor-api mac-chaktitvena anAditvAt tayoH saMzleSo’py anAdir iti bhAvaH

“The material energy and the living entities, being My energies, both are beginningless, and their mutual embrace is also beginningless.”

VedAnta SUtra 2.1.35 states:

na karmAvibhAgAd iti cen nAnAditvAt

“If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality seen in the world, arguing that everyone had the same karma at the beginning of creation, this is not true because karma is beginningless.”

Baladeva VidyAbhuSaNa comments on this sUtra:

karmaNaH kSetrajJAnAM ca brahmavad anAditva- svIkArAt. pUrva-pUrva-karmAnusareNottarottarakarmaNi pravarttanAt na kiJcid dUSaNam smRtiz ca:

puNya-pApAdikaM viSNu karyet pUrvakarmaNA
anAditvAt karmaNaz ca na virodhaH kathaJcana

karmaNo’nAditvenAnAvasthA tu na doSaH prAmANikatvAt.

“VyAsa has accepted that karma and the jIvas are beginningless, just like Brahman. Thus there is no fault, because subsequent karma is inspired by the past karma. The SmRti confirms this:

‘Lord ViSNu makes the living entities do good or bad acts according to their past karma. There is no contradiction in this because karma has no beginning.’

If someone objects, that if karma is beginningless, then it has the defect of infinite regress, we say that is not so, because the scriptures say so.”

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

He is sai cit ananda only may be two situations. soul is eternal, form soul is eternal, relations etrnal, you agree?

If you can present statements where the soul is said to be relations not etrnal, feel free to quote them.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

The Lord is here called anAdi. He has no beginning. In other words, He has eternally existed. What was the purpose of this example?

anadi means eternal too you agree?

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

Instead of arguing over translations and interpretations of interpretations, you would do well to re-read the second page of this thread starting right here and think about it.

Ok. Am read late, am not have time early, exuse.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,05:00)

anadi means eternal too you agree?

Adi means beginning, and anAdi means that which has no beginning. Monier-Williams Sanskrit dictionary has the following entries under the word anAdi: "having no beginning", "existing from eternity". Cappeller dictionary has "having no beginning".

The word anAdi particularly signifies something which has no beginning. Something which is anAdi may come to an end, such as is the case with the bondage of the jiva. Yes, the word anAdi may also be used in the sense of "eternal", although it is not its exact meaning.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,04:44)

Why you accept Bhaktivedanta Swami and not accept Jiva Gosvami, Visvanatha Cakravarti, Baladeva Vidyabhusana and the rest of the sampradaya acaryas?

Am not told this.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,04:57)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 06 2002,13:40)

Kailasa, it appears that you cannot write English properly. I also suspect that you may not understand English properly. Also you do not know either Sanskrit or Bengali to understand the original verses. What, then, is the point in presenting endless incoherent arguments?

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,04:44)

Take your time and read again the references I posted from Bhaktivedanta Swami (read them here) and consider whether there is an actual contradiction between him and the Gosvamis or merely unacquaintance with his teachings on your part. It is very clear from the references he presents that nobody falls from the spiritual world.

Ok, late.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,05:14)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,04:44)

Why you accept Bhaktivedanta Swami and not accept Jiva Gosvami, Visvanatha Cakravarti, Baladeva Vidyabhusana and the rest of the sampradaya acaryas?

Am not told this.

Then go ahead and read what they have written in this regard. I have presented their writings on the second page of this thread.

Did you read and understand it all?

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,04:53)

Yes, He is anAdi, the bondage of the jIva is anAdi, the material world is anAdi. That is perfect.

He is no power made jiva liberated anadi?

This is secret plan?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,05:25)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,04:53)

Yes, He is anAdi, the bondage of the jIva is anAdi, the material world is anAdi. That is perfect.

He is no power made jiva liberated anadi?

This is secret plan?

Yeah, this is very secret and mysterious.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,05:17)

Am understand you wery well. Sastra not dry speculations. Soul fall, soul not fall. You one with God, you not one with God for example. If you take one part sastra it is not correct. Reason means understanding many acintya tattva it is right?

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,05:27)

Yeah, this is very secret and mysterious.

This is not true. If you follow not understand true, may be for you wery well situations? It is not goswami it is speculations.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Aug. 17 2002,06:27)

If you can present statements where the soul is said to be relations not etrnal, feel free to quote them. cool:

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,05:51)

Spiritual world not have material time.

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,05:51)

QUOTE(Madhava @ Aug. 17 2002,06:27)

If you can present statements where the soul is said to be relations not etrnal, feel free to quote them. cool:

The word "relations" does not mean anything that would make any sense in this sentence.

I suggest you get someone to help you with your English expression, otherwise this discussion does not go anywhere.

QUOTE

This is not true. If you follow not understand true, may be for you wery well situations? It is not goswami it is speculations.

This does not make any sense. Please do understand that we have no idea what you're trying to say here.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,05:58)

Soul have eternal relations with God?

( may be it is right English? ) om tat sat.

Soul ( jiva ) have eternal ( sat ) relations ( swarupa ) with God ( Bhagavan)?

Yes. The soul has an eternal relationship with God.

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,06:06)

Yes. The soul has an eternal relationship with God.

My dandavats.

Shi is fall, shi is not fall, all right?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,06:21)

About your question: The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness is called Maya. There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use the moon appears to be changing, but in fact the moon is always the same.

The spirit souls do not fall from the spiritual world, not superficially, artificially, mechanically, whimsically or in any other way.

Baladeva comments on VedAnta SUtra 4.4.22:

na ca sarvezvaraH zrI hariH svAdhina muktaM svalokAt-kadAcit pAtyitumicchet mukto vA kadAcit taM jIhased iti zakyaM saGkitum.

“One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord.”

Bhaktivedanta Swami presents his conclusion:

“The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26, purport)

:cool:

QUOTE(Madhava @ Sep. 07 2002,07:01)

Bhaktivedanta Swami presents his conclusion:

“The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.”

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26, purport)

:cool:

You take SP?

QUOTE(kailasa @ Sep. 07 2002,07:06)

You take SP?

Srila Prabhupada bona fide guru?

I told you his conclusion. That's all. Do you accept it?

I think we are all very happy with the conclusion that no-one falls from Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode of the Lord.

Case closed.

I am opening this thread again since I have found some interesting references on the subject matter from the Sat-sandarbha. Let us see when I get the time to get them translated and posted here.

However, if Sriman Kailasa considers re-participating in the discussion, let me note that we only welcome opposing views when they are presented along with proper scriptural citations along with the original Sanskrit or Bengali text, and have not been cited before. Other entries will be promptly removed.

The following exchange (copied from another forum) may be of interest. I have also found something very interesting in the Bhagavat Sandarbha, Anucchedas 63, 64 and 65. More on that later on.

QUOTE

The theory of neutral position calls for scriptural support. There is no support for it in the Gosvami's writings or in the Vedanta Bhasya of Baladeva as far as I am aware of. They consistently present the bondage of the jiva as beginningless.

This issue is discussed in depth in Sri Brahma Samhita. In his commentary to Brahma Samhita, Sri Jiva Goswami says:

In Sri Narada-pancaratra it is said:

"The individual soul is spiritual and conscious. It lives on the border between the spiritual and material worlds. It can leave that border, enter the material world, and become contaminated by the modes of nature. That is the situation of the soul."

The original text (from Jiva's commentary on verse 21) is as follows:

yat-taTasthaM tu cid-rUpaM sva-saMvedyAd vinirgatam |
raJjitaM guNa-rAgeNa sa jIva iti kathyate || iti nArada-paJcarAtrAt |

The translation you have presented is from Kusakratha's edition, and with all due respect, is not very precise. A rather literal translation would be as follows:

"That which emanates from the tatastha, which has a spiritual form of self-cognizance, and which is coloured by attachment to the gunas, is known as the jiva."

Living on the border, leaving the border, and becoming something are not a part of the original verse in question.

The fact that the jivas have been emanating from the tatastha since beginningless time is further described in the 20th verse. The original Sanskrit (verse and commentary) runs as follows:

yojayitvA tu tAny eva praviveza svayaM guhAm |
guhAM praviSTe tasmiMs tu jIvAtmA pratibudhyate ||20||

atha tRtIyam Aha yojayitveti | yojayitvA tad yojanA-yoga-nidrayor antarAle ity arthaH | guhAH virAD-vigraham | pratibudhyate pralaya-svApAj jAgarti || 20 ||

Jiva states that the living entities are awakened from the sleep into which they entered at the end of the previous pralaya (devastation). Thus the cycle of manifestation is eternal. Vedanta Sutra (2.1.35) further discusses the cycle of karma as follows:

na karmAvibhAgAd iti cen nAnAditvAt

“If someone says that the theory of karma cannot explain the inequality seen in the world, arguing that everyone had the same karma at the beginning of creation, this is not true because karma is beginningless.”

Baladeva VidyAbhuSaNa comments on this sUtra:

karmaNaH kSetrajJAnAM ca brahmavad anAditva- svIkArAt. pUrva-pUrva-karmAnusareNottarottarakarmaNi pravarttanAt na kiJcid dUSaNam smRtiz ca:

puNya-pApAdikaM viSNu karyet pUrvakarmaNA
anAditvAt karmaNaz ca na virodhaH kathaJcana

karmaNo’nAditvenAnAvasthA tu na doSaH prAmANikatvAt.

“VyAsa has accepted that karma and the jIvas are beginningless, just like Brahman. Thus there is no fault, because subsequent karma is inspired by the past karma. The SmRti confirms this:

‘Lord ViSNu makes the living entities do good or bad acts according to their past karma. There is no contradiction in this because karma has no beginning.’

If someone objects, that if karma is beginningless, then it has the defect of infinite regress, we say that is not so, because the scriptures say so.”

QUOTE

If you read Sri Brahma Samhita in depth you will see Sri Jiva Goswami does quote scriptures to support his presentation that the soul has arisen from a marginal position.

There is no debate over whether the jiva originates from tatastha or not. It is well known and established that the jiva is a manifestation of tatastha-sakti. The question is whether there was ever a first time when the jiva entered this world. My answer is no, since the bond between jiva and prakriti is beginningless and the cycle of karma is beginningless as well.