Discussions on the doctrines of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Please place practical questions under the Miscellaneous forum and set this aside for the more theoretical side of it.
Misconceptions on siddha-pranali -
Advaitadas - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:15:00 +0530
I just found this interesting thread on siddha pranali in the archives of the Audarya Fellowship Forum, April-May 2002
http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001200.html Citta Hari
(Member)
04/08/02 04:24 PM
Re: Siddha Pranali
Quote:
"The one thing they are not going to really have an answer for is why Bhaktivinode Thakur supported siddha pranali and advocated it, if it is not to be followed."
There is nothing wrong with siddha-pranali per se; as Rati mentioned, Bhaktivinoda did follow it. But BSST placed emphasis on the acintya-sakti of harinama (kirtana) to reveal one's svarupa as opposed to telling neophytes who were still predominantly under the influence of the gunas and thus who could not sit and meditate to sit and do lila smaranam. The validity of the practice of siddha-pranali-diksa is not in question, rather the adhikara of those receiving is the central issue, which is why Bhaktivinoda taught:
adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave/
viparyaya buddhi janme saktira abhave//
"The intelligence of one who thinks of his siddha-deha without first acheiving elegibiltiy becomes bewildered."
And we find in his Bhajana-rahasya that he advises acquaintance with the siddha-deha at asakti, drawing attention to the words ayi nandatanuja kinkaram, where Mahaprabhu first speaks of a spiritual identity.
But Visvanatha seems to give licence for raganuga bhakti in Raga-vartma-candrika wherein he mentions that "In the following section it will be shown how a raganuga bhakta goes through the stages of anartha-nivrtti, etc., after which he arrives at the stage of prema, whereupon he achieves direct attainment of his desired object."
However, in Bhakti-sara-pradarsini (1.2.291-2), Visvanatha mentions that to practice raganuga bhakti one must have attained the stage of nistha.”I question the sources Citta Hari has had for this last claim. After reading the Bhakti Sara Pradarshini Tika of Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.2.291 I found the following text-
ragatmika bhaktau eka-nistham yesam -those who are exclusively fixed in ragatmika bhakti
tesam vrajavasinam -of those nitya siddha vrajavasis
sri krsne yo bhavas -that feeling they have for krsna
tat sajatiya bhavaptaye ludbdha -who are greedy for attaining the same feeling.
Flowing English style – “It is the greed of those who desire to attain the same feelings for Krsna as the Vrajavasis, who are exclusively fixed in ragatmika bhakti.
The word eka nistha does not refer to the raganuga aspirant but to the nitya siddha vrajavasis.
The word nistha is otherwise nowhere to be found in Visvanatha’s tikas of either verse 1.2.291 or 1.2.292. Perhaps another unfortunate example of misrepresentation of the Gosvamis teachings?
Madhava - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:11:45 +0530
I've heard this interpretation before, too. I recall reading it in the writings of Vraja Kishor Das, who translated the first division of Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu. They make an amazing misinterpretation of the "rAgAtmikAika-niSThA ye vraja-vAsi-janAdayaH" verse. appearing right in the beginning of Rupa's delineation of adhikara for raganuga-sadhana. It is ludicrous to claim that the sadhaka should be fixed in ragatmika-bhakti to be qualified to practice raganuga-sadhana! teSAM bhAvAptaye lubdho bhaved atrAdhikAravAn - Is it not obvious that the verse speaks of the Vrajavasis as ragatmika-nistha, adn the adhikarivan as the one who becomes greedy to attain the same? It is a far fetched idea to extend the "niSTha" to the lobha of the adhikarivan. If the tikakaras say this, then I stand to be corrected; however, as far as I am aware of, they don't. BRS 1.2 with three tikas should be available in the Grantha Mandir soon.
How amusing that he quotes Visvanatha's RVC 2.7 and makes the same mistake which appeared in our edition and all the other editions, too! We'll fix it for the next edition, and it'll be available in our online errata in a moment, as I get the krishnacaitanya.com forums back online.
Advaitadas - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:41:37 +0530
Who is Vraja Kishor Das?
Regarding the tikakaras, the phrase-for-phrase translation I gave of Visvanatha's tika is clear enough. Jiva Gosvami gives no tika to verse 291, but his tika of verse 292 is similarly interesting - tat tad bhavadi madhurye sri bhagavatadisu siddha nirdesa sastresu srute sravana dvara yad kincit anubhutu sati yacchastram vidhi vakyam nopeksate. "Those who hear only slightly from shastras like Sri Bhagavata, that ascertain siddhi, about the sweetness of the feelings of the Vrajavasis, will not wait for the words that point out the rules," etc. The words yad kincit, only slightly, are interesting. That means that the threshold of lobha is not as high as is often suggested.......
Mina - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:45:26 +0530
Just wanted to point out that he refers to siddha pranali as diksha. It is not diksha - it is a practice. The transmission of gayatri mantras is what constitutes diksha. Diksha has a correlation with puja, but not with siddha pranali. However, the practice of lila smarana is prescribed post diksha and not before. Also, it is never presented as a requirement, since chanting the maha mantra is sufficient in itself.
So there are two misconceptions right there. I am sure we could count up some more as well.
Tamal Baran das - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 07:16:34 +0530
QUOTE(Advaita Das @ Aug 8 2003, 10:11 PM)
Who is Vraja Kishor Das?
He left almost in total Gaudiya Vaishnavism.He is no more devotee.Used to be my good friend in Iskcon days.He ran Bhakti Sastri courses in USA,Towacco,New Jersey.
Madhava - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 12:24:15 +0530
Advaitadas - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 12:47:55 +0530
QUOTE
Who is his Guru? I just checked his 'tika' of BRS 1.2.291, it seems that this is the source Cittahari was quoting, but as I quoted above, Visvanatha, and Rupa also, in the mula sloka itself, speak of the ragatmika nitya siddha brajavasis as eka nistha, not of the candidate. Rupa Gosvami elsewhere wrote that raganuga bhakti means following the ragatmikas, not BEING a ragatmika. ahamgropasana is also not possible here, because that was also condemned by Rupa. I wonder what were Vrajakishora's sources for his English purport......
Guest - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 12:56:38 +0530
QUOTE
Also, it is never presented as a requirement, since chanting the maha mantra is sufficient in itself.
While that may be true for the very beginner, Sri Ananta Das justly writes this comment on Vilap Kusumanjali -
The neophyte devotee should cast all sensual thoughts out of the mind and meditate on these services with a pure heart. Sripada Ramanujacarya says bhavati ca smrter bhavana prakarsa darsana rupata: "When meditation becomes intense it will flow like a stream, free from all other, disturbing thoughts, and the sadhaka will experience it as a genuine transcendental perception." Lord Krsna Himself has also sung the glories of smarana in His Bhagavad-Gita (8.14):
ananya ceta satatam yo mam smarati nityasah
tasyaham sulabhah partha nitya yuktasya yoginah
"O Partha! For the mystics who always remember Me with undivided attention and concentration I am easily attained!" According to Sri Sanatana Gosvami Hari-nama sankirtana helps the sadhaka to achieve swift success in the practice of smarana:
sankirtanad dhyana sukham vivardhate dhyanac ca sankirtana madhuri sukham
anye'nya samvardhakatanubhuyate'smabhis tayos tad dvayam ekam eva tat
(Brhad Bhagavatamrta 2.3.153)
"As a result of sankirtana the joy of meditation increases and as a result of meditation the sweetness and the joy of sankirtana increases. In this way the two invigorate Each other, and it is experienced as if they are not two separate activities, but only one."
Tamal Baran das - Sat, 09 Aug 2003 17:12:20 +0530
QUOTE(Advaita Das @ Aug 9 2003, 07:17 AM)
QUOTE
Who is his Guru? I just checked his 'tika' of BRS 1.2.291, it seems that this is the source Cittahari was quoting, but as I quoted above, Visvanatha, and Rupa also, in the mula sloka itself, speak of the ragatmika nitya siddha brajavasis as eka nistha, not of the candidate. Rupa Gosvami elsewhere wrote that raganuga bhakti means following the ragatmikas, not BEING a ragatmika. ahamgropasana is also not possible here, because that was also condemned by Rupa. I wonder what were Vrajakishora's sources for his English purport......
Vraj Kishors Guruji was Dhanurdhara Swami.Dhanurdhar was taking siksa from Narayan Maharaja before,so his ultimate source is Narayan Maharaja.
Dhanurdhar wrote Waves of devotion book,which is some kind of a commentary on BRS.I have never read it myself completely,although whenever i was studying Bhakti Sastri in Iskcon,the teacher was urging us how this book is great and that we have to get it ,and we went through some parts of the book during our studies.