Matsya rasik seva - Interested in intimacy with Matsya?

From the beginning of the MatsyarAsalIlAparamarahasya:

If a topic gets closed, in all likelihood it means you shouldn't be starting a new topic on the same.

I apologize for my previous comment. Believe it or not I meant no disrespect, and do not feel my Lord was offended, yet it was pm material.

I apologize for my previous comments too.

Whoops Wait-a-minute... ha ha ..I guess I didn't make any comments here...

Duh...

Oh well... I apologize anyway...

I thought it was closed for reasons that my approach was considered disrespectful and not because the conjugal pastimes of the hidden avatara, Matsya were wanted to be kept hidden as for some reason, they were not appreciated by Gaudiya vaishnavas.

May I ask then as I have taken a more respectful approach, why the mysterious pastimes of Matsya are not discussed here and why they are to be kept hidden?

Why close it?

It is a fasinating topic indeed!

Because this is a concoction of yours, Babu, that has nothing to do with any scriptures that are supposed to be at the root of various relationships with Bhagavan.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

It should not be a novel idea to anyone that it is indeed important to keep a discussion board centered on Gaudiya Vaisnavism focused on topics related to Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Although this will involve topics which are outside of Gaudiya theology there should be a limit or tie in to the essence of the discussions at hand.

Maybe I have just missed something but "Matsya rasik seva" is not something related to Gaudiya Vaisnavism and I don't even know that it is related to anything other than someone’s fancy to stir things up for the sake of their own amusement.

Is there not another board where you can go to unleash such topics?

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I did not write the MatsyarAsalIlAparamarahasya.

Aspiring to be a minnow at Matsya's lotus fins, babu

I, personally, will welcome such a topic when we are up and running. In that way, perhaps we can perform a little service to the Vaishnavas who want their topics to be centered more directly around Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

gaudiya-repercussions.com

Although the forum is not ready yet we have a little intro page.

Incredible indeed..!

I confess, I am not sure why a serious topic about any incarnation of God would not be acceptable. I might agree that the humorous version was over the top for GD, but a serious discussion of Matsya might be interesting.

So if someone has a Matsya Shaligram Shila they are either not a Gaudiya, or must pretend Matsya is not a fish?

How should one perform manasi-puja?

Indeed. This kind of stuff would not be tolerated at any other 'VaiSNava' forums, so why here? This forum is not 'Easy Street' as many people might like to think. It is liberal in places, but not ridiculous.

While I certainly have my fun at the forums, I do think an exploration into anthropomorphism present in one's belief system laden with the personal human interaction with human imaged Gods is not something to be overlooked.

Have we chosen Krishna because He is such a pleasing image to our human standards and so if we were a fish, would not Matsya be the image we would choose?

Being careful not to dress God in our human conditioning is not a distraction but the core truth of our pursuit for Truth and Understanding.

I feel this topic to be most pertinent and sense that the resistance to a discussion of it may be its questioning the assumptions one has tethered their reality to.

personally and this is the truth, I would not love krishna any less if he has, as you say, "fish lips." I already explained to you my affection for Varahaswamy

And if it was my own concoction or creation, which it isn't, would it make it any less? Isn't all that we call scripture, pass through the minds of men and women to make its appearance one day on a page before us?

The parade of art, literature and music through the ages has been God dancing in our midst. Are you saying God only dances in the scriptures of India written by the most holy of people? We are all holy people. Verily, God only dances in our hearts and our imaginations and the love of that dance overflows from our hands and eyes and being into the world around us.

But the most glaring contradiction I see in you reasoning is why can't Bhagavan, the possessor of all opulences, have amorous pastimes as a fish? If He is Bhagavan, why is He limited to not having these super topmost loving pastimes as a fish? Why do you suggest God is limited? This is what bothers me and why I feel you have an anthropomorphic bias to not being able to consider that God, who is so much beyond the comprehension of our minds, has to appear as a human, and quite a hunk and superstud (to borrow the term from evakurvan) at that as Krishna for one to delight in these super topmost loving pastimes? Why not a fish?

I get a sense from your presentations at times that Krishna is the part. Krishna is not the part. Krishna is the whole. The true Krishna is the one we see in every flower, in the eyes of everyone we meet and the fish swimming in a pond.

peace bro, om shanti, babu

I would say and so are many others that the reason this topic is not being considered for exploration by yourself, Rasaraja and Madhava is not because it is superficial or "Easy Street" but because the very depth of its premise shines a light on actual superficiality. Indeed, that fact if it is true according to you that this to topic would not be tolerated on other "VaiSNava" forums is more of a statement about what has become vaisnavism to choose to express itself in such an unexamined light. Personally, I don't think this is true and this subject I think would be something that a serious and aspiring vaisnava would welcome to his faith for it goes to the root core of what is conditioning that binds us to the repetition of our miseries and blinds us from truly seeing Krishna.

Ridiculous is a relative term. Once you consider the ridiculous and understand it, you will see there are even more ridiculous things to consider. The path to God is really lots of fun. It really is.

If it looks like a fish, if it swims like a fish, if it sounds like a fish, its a duck.

Why the sudden narrowing of the focus of gaudiyadiscussions? Rama rasik seva and Gaura nagari bhavi are discussed here which aren't mainstream Gaudiya vaisnavism and now we can't discuss Matsya rasik seva. I did post this in "Other Vaisnava Traditions."

Yes you did miss something. The questions raised in a discussion of Matsya rasik seva is so deep to the core of what it means to be a Krishna bhakta that it appears to be unrelated to the extent of the ridiculous. The problem is not with the topic. The problem is with you.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

If you would like to provide us relevant information on this so called “Matsya rasik seva” from the Goswami’s literature then I am sure you will get a response. However since we all know this won’t be something that you can piecemeal together you can simply let this thread die and bring it to Gaudiya-Repercussions.com were Gaudiya Vaisnavism, in the context of what is actually presented by the Goswami’s, is not a concern.

Your points on other topics (i.e. Gaura nagari bhavi) would be valid except that at least those parties view the Goswami’s as relevant and derive some of their thoughts through the writings of the Goswami’s. Whether or not they can actually make a valid bridge in this regard has been much of the conversation. If you were to actually read those topics it would be clear that we ask for the same validation of their thought process. If it doesn't go through the Goswami's and isn't derived and supported by their presentation then it is not Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

It probably does fall outside of the gauDIya vaiSNava tradition as such, but devotion to Matsya does seem to be distinctly vaiSNava, and I do not see anything wrong per se with a rAsika approach to Matsya devotion. If someone wishes to explore that and create their own sAdhana for it, I can see no wrong with that. There would be a lot of images that one could use. The dark night of the soul could find expression in a salmon's trek upstream, etc.

Who is then writing of the commentaries..foremost in your good estimation..?

In the closest terms I can come up with for our human comprehension, if I were a CBS News researcher with fingerprints on the expose of G W Bush's National Guard service, I would be fired.

It was me who wrote the "Introduction to the MatsyarAsalIlAparamarahasya" and sent it to Babu for fun. All mental concoction, nothing bona fide.

Well, I did post this in OTHER VAISHNAVA TRADITIONS where the criterion for posting on subject matters is "Discussions on other Vaishnava-sampradayas and Gaudiyas other than the Rupanuga-tradition should go here. This includes for example Madhva, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Gaura-nagari, Radha-vallabhi and those going their own ways." As this is about other vaisnava traditions where it is not a requirement that they match or are influenced by the Goswamis' understandings, why not?

So yes, I will let this thread die and only answer responses that come up as they may as it seems like this topic is like a fish out of water here.

Hopefully, no ones actions here were ego driven in themselves wanting to be The Big Fish as we all know Matsya is The Big Fish.

Aspiring to be a minnow at Matsya's lotus fins, babu

Hey watch it, no fun allowed..

It was funny however to see how some got so 'freakin' up tight at it...

Which goes to the heart of the contextual discussion of we can love God as Krishna cuz he looks human but the fish concept is too far out.

It is common knowledge in vaiSNava (gauDIya [?]) circles that a "personal" aspect of god is never without his/her devotees. If x is a form of God => x has devotees.

nAham vasAmi vaikuNThe yoginAM hRdaye na cha, mad bhaktA yatra gAyanti tatra tiSThAmi nArada

Radhe Radhe!

That would be a great point if indeed "Matsya rasik seva" was a Vaisnava tradition. So naming different Sampradayas was rather pointless as your original post is indeed a joke and we all are well aware that such a tradition doesn't exist.

Spare me the reasoning that since Matsya is indeed Krishna that there must be a tradition or Sampradaya that practices anything resembling "Matsya rasik seva".

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

It was a clever piece of imitation, Elpis. I was wondering where it came from.

At any rate, there is really no tradition behind this, and I doubt Babu is sincerely interested in pursuing this mood. If I'm wrong, I'll buy him a snorkel and wish him all the best in pursuing the mood in all earnestness.

Actually it wasn't a joke as I wasn't aware that the scripture in question was not of ancient lore but a recent descent from On High into the mind of Elpis. He emailed me the piece as per my interest in Matsya rasik seva and I then posted it. Btw, I don't think its source as being from the heart and mind of Elpis detracts one bit from its obvious divine inspiration.

And you say the tradition does not exist? One is a majority with God.

Yah, a snorkel would be nice. Thanks! Would you like an aquarium? I think you might see the other side of this discussion with some fish appreciation. Fish are really cool!

From the the Matsya AngRezI puRana:

Once my Lord spoke of His life as a fish,
such a story I could not miss

Plying the waters with Devi aside,
Instead of nikunj, in caves did they hide

To love is to love
As fish or a man,
Or must we think
He only swam?

Alas, some choose not to see
what bliss is in a fish such as He,
To limit is indeed the only sin,
whether He of divine fur, feather, or fin.

If you honestly profess to follow the path (even if your own) of Matsya-rasika-upasana, then it would be welcome if you focused on its parallels with Gaudiya Vaishnavism, whether on its historical development or its theological premises.


If you are, on the other hand, only interested in exploring the details of that particular mode of worship, then I would kindly recommend that the topic be placed into some other forum specialized for such topics. If such a forum does not exist, you may want to consider teaming up with some other sampradayas who are for example into snouting with Varaha for the purpose of relishing the nectar of your chosen deity. This is, however, not relevant for Gaudiya Discussions.

Somehow I feel there's a condescending attitude towards varAha worshippers in the above statement. I mean, varAha is one of the viSNumUrtis I feel attracted to and genuinely consider Him more than a snouting hog. How would you feel if it be told that only a matter of fact was being conveyed when it was said that "you may want to consider teaming up with some other sampradayas who are for example into adultery with Krishna for the purpose of relishing the nectar of your chosen deity."

The point I am making is that being fishy with Matsya is the same as snouting with Varaha. I consider both these ideas disrespectful, at least in the current line of thought explored in this thread.

The thing that bothered me most about the thread is not that the suggestion of a rasik seva to either of these would be bad, but when I see matsya referred to as "ol' fish lips" that is where I feel very strange- Mastya is as much Krishna to me as venugopala swamy, and Varahaswamy is so merciful and more than worthy of our love...

But a boar snouts around which is specifically why the Lord appeared as Varaha was to snout around and find the earth that had become lost in the mud and so how is it disrespectful to say that Varaha snouts around? Tis its nature.

In your understanding, you have taken on the female form of a gopi assistant of Radha and so how far fetched is it then or disrespectful is it swim with Matsya?

There is a fishy understanding here and for different reasons, its both of ours.

I apologize then if my comments bothered you or anyone but still there is an anthropomorphic aspect to this thread that folks are not stepping forth and considering. Still, I would imagine if one was a fish with fish lips, one would find Matsya's fish lips divinely intoxicating.

And so in your appreciation of Varahaswamy, would it be so unfathomable to a assume a boar form to make the service and association with Him more relishable and to do some snouting around? Yes, I know the Lord is above all activities but He takes on activities to bring pleasure to Himself and His devotees and never could it be considered that any activity would be a step down. Heck, I even consider it an honorable thing for a boar to snout around.

I have no problems with you "sounting around" or "swimming with" God. In my heart of hearts (speaking for myself only), however, I prefer to sing the hymns of sAmaveda to Him. I find this as providing Him great pleasure whether in the form of varAha or matsya. I am not very concerned about the anthropomorphic aspect of the episode.

Any way, the suggestion of "snouting with varAha" came across as if, to others, that seemed to be the only (not so dignified) activity possible with varAha. Of course, varAha makes grunting sounds and I have seen explanations of this in other sampradAyas with deep mystical significance. I was simply referring to the fact that "snouting" was not a word that could adequately describe varAha's lIlA, just as "adultery" cannot indicate the true nature of kRSNa's relationship with the gopIs.

And this is precisely why humans are spontaneously attracted to a human-like form of God; narakrti param brahma.

Babu's idea is interesting though; after all, contemplation of Matsyadeva would allow the little fishies a chance to break free from bhava-sagara, literally.

Excuse-me if I'm juping in here, I'm just buying it for the sake of peace and no-institutionalism.
===========================

Madhava-ji,


Are you playing some kind of "Batman and Robin"?
If not, why so much policies nowadays?

This Site used to be all about Raganuga and Freedom. What is happening?
Not to say, of course, the topics that you are just baning even without providing a single notice (PM)... Forgive my language in here, but seriously that is authoritarianism, dictatorship and so forth, if you may.


Lets be polite and normal to let everyone else express themselves because if someone out there (or the M.T.) does not like the topic, in my opinion, they do have two choices, either to come out with something better or remain silent. Don't you think it is better then just pushing a deleting buttom?

Again, I do appreciate and understand the Holly-Dhama-effect, but don't you think it is too yearly for this wallah-puritanic?

================================================

Please, do not stress yourself so much!

Radhe-Radhe!

No Hari Saran, I am not playing Batman and Robin. I am trying to ensure that this site will be favorable for the bhajan of practicing Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

This site was never about "raganuga and freedom" in the sense of "anything goes, let's be spontaneous". Raganuga has little to do with cooking a new-age-ish kichari with ingredients from all the three worlds.

If you believe I am having issues with authoritarianism, dictatorship and so forth, perhaps you can PM me and we can discuss that in private.

I don't think that Madhava is dictator at all. There are so many Forums around about Wicca, Paganism and different New Age Forums with many topics. Why not joining them? If i have my say of current state of Prog Rock i will write that on Prog Rock Forum, insted on Gaudiya Discussions.
This is Forum which follows in the footsteps of Six Goswamis, so why to bring inside some other stuff which absolutely doesn't have even any connections with the name of the Forum? Can you go on the Mediterranean cooking Forum to start topic about Kosher food or Rap music?

I like Kichari being offered to our Sri Giridhari Lal , so that He can see all the vegetables inside, and not that everything is being overcooked looking like a big yellow mash.

Here examples:
Main Entry: free·dom
Pronunciation: 'frE-d&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another

i will say that probably Hari you were thinking rather of this word:
EASE, FACILITY e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken f : boldness of conception or execution h
FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated

Can we get this topic back to Lord Matsya. He is The Big Fish and He should be glorified. Is this because some of you have subtle desire to be The Big Fish? Look deep into your hearts my friends.

Aspiring to be a minnow at His lotus fins, babu

Yes Babu, go back. After all I was just trying to say hello, anyway...

Please excuse-me if somehow it sounds impolite, it is just my poor English, I wish I could select better words.
==========================================

Thanks!

I repeat, I do appreciate the attempts to keep this web space for topics exclusively about GD, nevertheless, I also consider to be polite that if in case of a topic "has" to be deleted the MT have at least to inform the sender by sending over a PM note explaining why such and such post will be removed, if not that is totally arbitrary!

If you really will consider everything that is not according to the Gosvamis's version to be off topics you probably will spend a good amount of time trying to clean up all the old GD archives. Do not take me wrong, but topics other than genuine GD has been floating over here for long time and now that you great guys are getting shaped-up by the Holly Dhama you think everybody else have to accept the new-born-again-style and lets burn everything else, right?

As far Bhajan I really think it is very kind of you (MT) to try to let others to get some access into the beauty of that Realm, but again you have to realize that there is a community of devotees with different necessities that may take shelter in this web space with variety expectations and naturaly expect that their opinion to be respected, too.

In other words, if you are really seeing that out there is a devotee's community the very first thing is you can't impose a strict line of thought, however, you can and are very welcome to share what you may think is good for others. Otherwise, GD will be no better than any other doctrinal path with GBC and all that institutional things.


Radhe!