Discussions on other Vaishnava-sampradayas and Gaudiyas other than the Rupanuga-tradition should go here. This includes for example Madhva, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Gaura-nagari, Radha-vallabhi and the such.
Rama's rasik sampradaya - Sita-Rama Yugal-seva - sounds familiar?
angrezi - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:43:30 +0530
The
rasik worshippers of Sri Rama, trace their tradition back to its founder Agradas who resided at Galta, near modern day Jaipur in the 16th century. His
dhyan-manjari is a famous paddhati among rasik Rama bhaktas describing the Yugal-seva of Sita-Rama in the divine city of Saket, yet many such manuals were composed after giving different interpretation of the eight-fold royal and conjugal pastimes of Sita-Rama. The popularity of the rasik traditions peaked in the 18th and 19th centuries but is still quite common as evident of the modern day popularity Kanaka Bhavan Mandir, the most famous shrine in Ayodhya, that is modeled on the 'House of Gold' mentioned in rasik texts, complete with Sita-Rama's oppulent bed chamber.
From The Secret Life of Ramachandra of Ayodhya by Philip Lutgendorf:
QUOTE
The training of the rasik adept involves total identification with his assigned body...To assist in identification with the new body and cultivation of its bhava, the initiate is provided a wealth of contextual identification... The manasi-puja of Sita-Rama follows the astayam cycle of daily worship in Vaisnava temples and ultimately in royal courts.
QUOTE
The climax of this meditative foreplay is said to be the experience of tat-sukh -- a vicarious tasting of the pleasure shared by the divine couple in their union, as witnessed by attendant sakhis and manjaris.
Sound familiar?
Satyabhama - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:11:23 +0530
This makes soooo much sense to me! It feels (would feel) so natural to be a manjari of Seeta!
More please!
angrezi - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:34:23 +0530
QUOTE
Ram rasiks focused on a single phase of their Lord's story-the idyllic period when the newly married Ram and Sita, having returned from Sita's home city of Mithila, enjoyed each other's company amidst the palatial comforts of Ayodhya. Although this period is generally held to have lasted some dozen years, it recieves no elaborate treatment in the Ramayana. This neglect did not, however daunt Ram's rasik devotees, who in their songs and meditations delighted in endlessly elaboratiing on thr pleasures of this idyllic interlude, which precedes the beginning of what is usually regarded as the "real" story of the Ramayana.
...the city of Ayodhya was re-visioned as the eternal realm of Saaket-lok. There the supreme Godhead, known to other traditions as Parabrahma, Isvar, or Sri Krsna, resided eternally inhis ultimate form or svarup as sixteen year old Ramachandra and his parasakti Sita.
The greatest splendor radiated from the city's center, at which lay the immense Kanak Bhavan-the palace presented to Sita on her marriage to Ram. Like the city the palace too was foursquare and many gated containing a labyrinth of chambers and passages oriented around a central courtyard which contained the most beautiful of gardens. At the center of this gardenstood a dias in the shape of a thousand petaled lotus, and the heart of the lotus a gem-studded throne-couch. Upon this couch was was enacted the supreme mystery: the eternal union of the two divine principles in human form, worshipped and served by their intimate attendants who could alone gain entry into this inner sanctum.
Gaurasundara - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:50:15 +0530
Thanks, Angrezi-ji, for this extremely interesting information. With the greatest respect it sounds very familiar, and can even be seen as a copy of GauDIya methodology. It leaves me wondering if there is an unbroken paramparA of gurus that support these ideas and disseminate them?
Where did you get this from? I mean to ask, is Lutgendorf's work a sort of academic treatise alone? Would the Rama-rasiks have their own scriptures and lore like the GosvAmIs have? Just curious.
Gaurasundara - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:39:22 +0530
By way of interest, it appears that these Ram-rasiks are not the only ones to view Rama in a rasika way. One of the prominent AzhvArs of ZrI VaiSNavism penned a hymn that addresses Rama through the viewpoint of a "heroine's" plaintive cry:
The words of the girl pining for RAma:My heart, even you are not on my side!The long night
stretches out like an aeon
without break of dawn.
If my KAkutstha with his shining, angry bow
does not come,
I shall kill myself,-- I don't know how.
I've been born as a woman,sinner that I am.
Even the sun does not rise;He hides his face,
refusing to see such grief.- NammAzhvAr (
TiruvAymoLi 5.4.3-4)
Satyabhama - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:49:17 +0530
It seems that in the alvars' hymns any of the avatars are fair game because they are all Sriman Narayana. Even when Andal is pining for Krishna in Nacchiyar Thirumozhi, she tells Krishna that He should not torture women thus, and starts calling Him "Rama" to remind Him of his previous more "gentlemanly" incarnation!
I also like Tirumangai azhvar's verses in Periya Thirumozhi, where the nayika's mother is worrying about Krishna's relationship with her young daughter. She remembers, "This is the same Guy who cut the nose off the asura woman (Surpanaka)! And now my young, tender daughter is walking away from me, holding His hand and talking sweetly... she has no idea of the possible consequences..."
angrezi - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:01:29 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Feb 16 2005, 07:20 PM)
Thanks, Angrezi-ji, for this extremely interesting information. With the greatest respect it sounds very familiar, and can even be seen as a copy of GauDIya methodology. It leaves me wondering if there is an unbroken paramparA of gurus that support these ideas and disseminate them?
Where did you get this from? I mean to ask, is Lutgendorf's work a sort of academic treatise alone? Would the Rama-rasiks have their own scriptures and lore like the GosvAmIs have? Just curious.
Hmm, an unbroken parampara?...that indeed seems to be the million dollar question for Gaudiyas as well. Did Mahaprabhu himself give the manjari-sadhana that flows through the pranali, since he is the founder of the sampradaya? I'm not really sure.
Your opinion coincides with the scholars who all say that the Rama-madhurya is a copy of the Gaudiya bhajan of the day. The Rama-rasiks are technically members of the Ramanandi branch of the Sri sampradaya.
This is the first essay I've read specifically on this subject, though I've heard of its existence, so I know very little. I just thought is was interesting that it is so close to Gaudiya bhajan yet, even after living several years in Hindustan, I knew nothing about it.
Texts include:
Dhyaan-manjari -Agradas
Ras pancaadhaayii -Nanddas
Bhusundii Raamaayana -unknown (an esoteric re-write of the Ramayan)
Rasik prakaas bhaktamaal -unknown
Siitaayan - Rampriya Saran
Raamalingaamrta - Advait of Banaras
Agastya Samhitaa -unknown
I'm sorry I'm too inexperienced and slow at typing to give this in HK (I'm lazy).
Satyabhama - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:10:59 +0530
QUOTE
The Rama-rasiks are technically members of the Ramanandi branch of the Sri sampradaya.
You are a treasure trove of information, angrezi... please do you know of any srivaishnava texts for rasik worship of sri sri Alamelumangapati Srinivasa Govinda? Pleeeeeease?
Elpis - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:39:00 +0530
QUOTE(angrezi @ Feb 16 2005, 04:13 PM)
The rasik worshippers of Sri Rama, trace their tradition back to its founder Agradas who resided at Galta, near modern day Jaipur in the 16th century. His dhyan-manjari is a famous paddhati among rasik Rama bhaktas describing the Yugal-seva of Sita-Rama in the divine city of Saket, yet many such manuals were composed after giving different interpretation of the eight-fold royal and conjugal pastimes of Sita-Rama.
I have seen, in a collection in Denmark, a manuscript which may belong to this tradition. The text started out with explaining why RAma, who had taken the vow of having only one wife, was dancing with many women. I may even have a picture of a few pages of the manuscript somewhere.
Satyabhama - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:44:25 +0530
QUOTE
explaining why RAma, who had taken the vow of having only one wife, was dancing with many women.
*faint* Wow! Sri Rama? Well that is fine, ok with me but it is so mind blowing that there are these rasik traditions with manuals and
detailed instructions for worship of Rama, but no such tradition for those who want to be wives or girlfriends of Krishna, which seems so much more natural, given the details of Krishna's life!
(and if there is such a tradition, I am having a hard time finding it!)
Elpis - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:48:42 +0530
QUOTE(Satyabhama @ Feb 17 2005, 01:14 PM)
Well that is fine, ok with me but it is so mind blowing that there are these rasik traditions with manuals and detailed instructions for worship of Rama, but no such tradition for those who want to be wives or girlfriends of Krishna!
(and if there is such a tradition, I am having a hard time finding it!)
Why don't you write your own manual? You know what you desire, so put it into words in a systematic way.
Satyabhama - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:51:37 +0530
QUOTE
Why don't you write your own manual? You know what you desire, so put it into words in a systematic way.
That is a very good idea
Hmm... doesn't feel right writing in english though.
I had thought of that...
Actually, I know of a few others who desire the same kind of "manual" I would be so so surprised if there is not already something out there.
Elpis - Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:56:17 +0530
QUOTE(Satyabhama @ Feb 17 2005, 01:21 PM)
QUOTE
Why don't you write your own manual? You know what you desire, so put it into words in a systematic way.
That is a very good idea
Hmm... doesn't feel right writing in english though.
I had thought of that...
Actually, I know of a few others who desire the same kind of "manual" I would be so so surprised if there is not already something out there.
I am sure that there are such manuals out there. However, writing one yourself would give you precisely what you want. You have the sentiments needed to do it, so why not? If English does not feel right, I could help you put it into Sanskrit verse. Well, that would probably have to be after I finish my dissertation
angrezi - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:10:04 +0530
QUOTE(Satyabhama @ Feb 17 2005, 01:21 PM)
QUOTE
Why don't you write your own manual? You know what you desire, so put it into words in a systematic way.
That is a very good idea
Hmm... doesn't feel right writing in english though.
I had thought of that...
Actually, I know of a few others who desire the same kind of "manual" I would be so so surprised if there is not already something out there.
It seems someone will have to start writing in English sooner or later. Many of the more esoteric bhakti traditions of India were recorded in local dialects. Surdas wrote in Braja-bhasa, some Rama-rasiks wrote in the Avadhi dialect of Hindi, and one could assume Mithila as well, Hari-dasas of Karnatika in Kannada, etc. etc.
Someone needs to carry the torch Satya! We've nominated you!
Satyabhama - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:15:44 +0530
QUOTE
Someone needs to carry the torch Satya! We've nominated you!
Alright then!
Satyabhama - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 00:19:47 +0530
QUOTE
If English does not feel right, I could help you put it into Sanskrit verse. Well, that would probably have to be after I finish my dissertation
Oh! Yes yes yes that would be great! I'm sure it would take me quite some time to put something together anyway since I am thinking specifically about Dvarakanath and Venkateshwara here... I want to research Venkatanatha's worship in Tirupati, the timings of his worship, the different sevas, as well as trying to find translations of some of Annamayya's more obscure sringara sankeerthanas which could be so helpful!... and of course reading these texts like govinda lilamrta, as well as these "manuals" of the "rama rasiks" if I can get ahold of them.
Lots of research to be done, and on top of that I have to finish my BA fairly soon!
Thank you Elpis!
Tapati - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:35:25 +0530
This is fascinating; I always had an affection for the pastimes of Sri Ramachandra. I named my son Lakshmana (he had an older half brother named Rama). I was reading the Ramayana when I was carrying him.
I agree, Satya, you have to write the book. Who better?
Madhava - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:36:41 +0530
I'm fairly sure the Nimbarka-sampradaya has manuals for this, they are into smarana, astakaliya-lila and sakhi-bhava. They aren't into parakiya-rasa though, that seems to be the exclusive domain of the Gaudiyas.
Satyabhama - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:39:31 +0530
QUOTE
I'm fairly sure the Nimbarka-sampradaya has manuals for this, they are into smarana, astakaliya-lila and sakhi-bhava. They aren't into parakiya-rasa though, that seems to be the exclusive domain of the Gaudiyas.
I am OK with the svakiya rasa!
But what about Venkatapati? I would have a *lot* of trouble prying my fingers off of the corner of His dhoti.
I have had a kind of realization lately that if I am going to be "ekantic" I had better focus my worship on Venkatesh, because He really has everything I'm looking for: I can see Venu Gopala in Him and I also see Dvarakanath in Him... Geez, even Haumanji is there in Tirupati you know, so Ramacandra is also there in Him! (we know how "ekantic" Hanumanji is!) And beyond all this, there is something so special about Venkateshwara Himself...
Anyway I am going to email the people at "Golok Dham" and try to find out more... I am having a HECK of a hard time researching Nimbarka Sampradaya! Maybe if I spend some time learning about this svakiya setup in Goloka, I might be able to be attracted to this group.
Kalkidas - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:35:31 +0530
QUOTE(angrezi @ Feb 17 2005, 08:31 PM)
The Rama-rasiks are technically members of the Ramanandi branch of the Sri sampradaya.
This one?
http://www.shriramanandasampraday.org/sampraday.htm
angrezi - Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:49:58 +0530
QUOTE(Kalkidas @ Feb 17 2005, 06:05 PM)
QUOTE(angrezi @ Feb 17 2005, 08:31 PM)
The Rama-rasiks are technically members of the Ramanandi branch of the Sri sampradaya.
This one?
http://www.shriramanandasampraday.org/sampraday.htmYes, seems to be.