Lonely Planet - The search for intercourse - Social intercourse and mental mushrooms.

In reflection upon a couple of recent threads and a request from Madhava in this section, I have started this topic to discuss the psychology of loneliness and the how and why of certain devotees who join this dicsussion board yet drag so much of the ISKCON baggage along with them.

As best I can decipher, Madhava represents an abject departure from ISKCON and the Saraswata doctrine of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami.

Personally, I find it to be a sort of rasabhasa to join this forum in all cengeniality, yet drag so much ISKCON baggage along with us.

As far as being an ISKCON man, I have to admit that I left ISKCON in 1981.
I spent a couple of years with the group of Srila Sridhar Deva Gosvami Maharaja, then I dropped out of the movement altogether. I don't have any plans at this time to ever join any institution of devotees again. I am due to fly to Manila in March and marry my Filipina sweetheart who has agreed to learn what I can teach her about devotion to Lord Krishna and adopt a vegetarian lifestyle.

I don't claim to be any sort of real devotee or Vaishnava at all.

What I do find to be a little tasteless and repugnant is the attempt of certain devotees of this forum to drag the ISKCON baggage along with them into this realm of siddha-pranali adherents.

Madhava and this forum represent the departure from ISKCON and all the ISKCON katha and ISKCON baggage. He is about the shedding of the dross that has become identified as part and parcel of Mahaprabhu's bhakti movement.

Coming to this forum should be about learning the brand of bhakti that is subscribed to and prescribed by Madhava and his guru's parivar.

It just seems so superfluous and irrelevant to come to this forum and drag all our ISKCON baggage along with us.

Madhava is a repisotory of a very particular brand of bhakti. Coming to this forum should be about learning from him what he has to teach. It should not be about telling tales of ISKCON intrigue and escapades.

This forum is getting too watered down and diverted from it's original intent. I am sure Madhava is a little bemused with all this small talk and ISKCON katha.

This forum should be preserved for it's unique and original quality and not made into a tabloid of ISKCON tales, no matter what section or what thread it appears on.

Dear Kesar Chandan-ji

There are plenty here in this forum, such as myself, that have had practically no contact with ISKCON. My personal contact is limited to a few friends. I have only ever seen an ISKCON guru once in my life! (I passed him in the hallway. I also didn't fall on my face offering davandats... oops!) That said, I have not found this board to be listing into the sea of ISKCON gossip.

For the most part, ISKCON topics are kept in the ISKCON area, and if I want to read them, I do. I have even posted a question or two there, usually on ISKCON history that I am interested in. ISKCON is a large movement that has affected many people's lives, for good or bad, and its no wonder that many internet Gaudiyas have an ISKCON background.

Also, many of the ISKCON topics are not pandering to petty gossip, but usually contain many members heartfelt feelings on their ISKCON experience. Personally, I found the thread on Tirtha das to be interesting, as I did know know much of the story behind him, and I found the presentation here to be straightforward and factual.

While our two main moderators are in India, topics may have become more 'loose' as of late, but I don't somehow think that means a dillution of this board's intent.

I think that going over Iskcon related topics and issues regarding their 'Guru's' and stupid GBC rules, the latest gossip etc., is like 'Beating a Dead Horse'.

namaskar,

bangli

KC - good idea for a topic. What I don't understand is:

This might be the reason I feel out of place here. I would love to find some community here, but find myself not-connecting with people - does it have to do with Iskon baggage - people seeing me and what I say through Iskon eyes....? I don't know - but want to find a way to break through it somehow and make some friends here. Mabe a section can be created for personal relationship building?

That's a good point, Kesar Chandan, although I probably wouldn't generalise and say everyone is carrying it. But I've noticed a few people with quite a lot of baggage around, and my first thought in these instances is that it's probably a good idea to deal with that first, before committing to a new religious experience of any sort.

I for one am quite happy with my ISKCON past. You read so many things about misled people - I for one know why I joined. It was purely for philosophical reasons. Having grown up in East Germany I was protected from too much religious indoctrination by Christians or anyone else and I always knew I wanted to worship God, become a nun, and serve. I had a phase of liking Jesus but I always knew God was a beautiful blue young man So it was all very simple.

It is a fact that I didn't have much to lose, at the time when I joined, so I did it as soon as the Berlin wall came down and I had access to temples. I consider many of the things I learned in bhakta program still very useful in daily life. Even the training I got from Asanga, my sankirtan leader, is still helping me sometimes in the jobs I do. I'm happy to know stuff about how the mind works, how pride creeps up on you, how the 3 gunas work... all that is something very few people know and I'm so thankful for it. Speak to a few "normal" people in Britain and you appreciate it so much more.

Ok so this is one of my hobby horses but there must be a reason why one in 6 people in Britain are now on antidepressants. And I'm not saying it won't ever happen to me, but all I'm saying is, without ISKCON it most likely would have happened a long time ago.

And yeah, like everyone else I also had really bad things happen to me in ISKCON, lost very much of my confidence and had to re-learn many social skills. But I've forgiven the people who did those things, mostly because I don't have the time to keep dwelling on the past and, over the years, worked hard to make peace with it. There were still one or two things I thought I might have to deal with through counselling but when I booked a counselling session, I was shown very clearly that I wasn't supposed to go... so I didn't in the end, and things seemed to have moved forward in those areas as well (relationship stuff, that was.)

So yeah, that was my little story. There's so much more to it obviously but my point, I guess, is that love and hate are just two different sides of the same coin, and both probably equally destructive when it comes to our experiences involving organised religion.

I certainly never meant to insinuate that ALL the regular members of this forum have come here with a suitcase full of ISKCON issues to sort through. I never said that.
All I am saying is that there are some new members in here who appear like a young doe who just walked onto the highway in front of a Mack truck - with eyes wide open to something they don't understand.

What I appreciate the most about Madhava is that he represents a departure from the ISKCON that was concocted and fabricated by certain powerbrokers who attempted to monopolize on access to and association with Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. In fact, a majority of the inconsistencies and anomalies characteristic of ISKCON were masterminded by a few BIG GUNS of the GBC and the guru elite. Of course, I understand that he also has issues with the founder-acharya and the entire Saraswata parivar.

Myself, I also have no real appreciation anymore for the ISKCON that was fabricated by the BIG GUNS of the GBC and guru elite.

I find something refreshing and captivating about Madhava's ideology. It sheds the tattered cloth of the ISKCON fiasco and begins anew with the basic principles of the goswamis.

what is meant by that?

ideology?

That means his ideals.

that happens all the time. internet forums are not "grade schools of life" where you learn things in an organized and systematic way. some have a suitcase of ISKCON issues, some have other type of baggage - seems like we all carry suitcases here lets try to keep our suitcases closed and keep our minds open...

If we are speaking of peope with "ISKCON baggage" as it were, we need to discern between those who come here to learn new things and compare it with that which they have learnt before, versus those who come to make obvious politics and arguments.

As far as I have seen, the latter have usually been indulged with for a while before having their argumentative threads closed whereas the former have often been asked by the moderators to seek the answers in previous threads where the relevant topic was discussed. In any case, I agree with Kesar Chandan's main idea that IGM topics should not overly be indulged in so much as that learning about GauDIya VaiSNavism in its original context is stifled.

I agree with Kulapavana-ji's summation; Suitcases closed, minds open. Sounds like quite a slogan.

.

The search for intercourse and mental mushrooms? Sounds like quite a party!

This is a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately, particularly with the big brouhaha about ex-ISKCON people moving away and the place (if there is one) of any IGM discussions here on GD. Maybe this post would be more appropriate in another thread (feel free to move it, O Saintly Moderators), but Gaurasundara, your comments fired off enough neurons in my poor little brain that I feel ready to tackle the subject here.

All of us have "suitcases", and at the risk of offending the non-Sanskrit-wallas, I've learned that they are rightly (no offense ) called saMskAras or impressions. Each of us has lived countless lives before this one, and all of them have left some mark on our subtle bodies, leading us to where we are today. In my case, since I'm not one of those past-life-hypnotism-regression people, I can't tell you how I was influenced when I was, say, the czar of Russia or an Incan peasant.

But what I do know, all too clearly, is that my initial exposure to GV thought and praxis in this life was through ISKCON and the books of ACBS. Because of this, I have certain pre-conceptions -- those saMskAras again, or the "suitcases" -- about GV siddhAnta. Fortunately, time (I was too young) and space (I lived far from any temple) prevented me from being hurt the way so many GD members were hurt. Thus, I don't have any issues to work through regarding ISKCON politics or misbehaviors in general. I was never sent out on the "pick", my kids were never molested in a gurukula, etc.

But again, what did happen is that I was led at least slightly astray in my understanding of what it means to be a follower of Rupa Goswami. At one time in my life, I believed that the material world was false, that vaidhI bhakti gradually led to rAgAnugA bhakti, and that re-establishing varNAzrama-dharma was important to spiritual progress.

My worry is that there are other, perhaps bigger, "bombs" waiting to go off in my misunderstanding of siddhAnta. It's bad enough that I was born in a Western, meat-eating body and spent so many wasted years with no thought or knowledge whatsoever of the beautiful pastimes of Radha and Krsna. What concerns me now is that my misunderstandings (to give IGM teachings the benefit of the doubt) could hurt my progress in the future.

This is why I particularly like reading the posts here on GD, and why I don't mind IGM topics. I don't care who murdered whom, or which of the Gang of 11 fell down most recently, but I do care when the pure philosophy of the Six Goswamis has been twisted because of "time, place, and circumstance" -- or whatever reason.

I need to know the truth in order to know the Truth. Unfortunately, I already have a "context" interfering with my correct understanding. I pray that the assembled Vaisnavas will have patience with me as I stumble toward a more authentic realization of our traditions. The archives are excellent, but they only go so far -- I know that as I learn more, I will learn more that conflicts with my IGM saMskAras and I'll be annoying somebody by bringing those questions up again. For this I apologize in advance and beg your forgiveness.

Dandavats,

Lancer

Great post, Lancer! I agree completely as I felt the same way when I first came here. Actually, what you say is precisely my position too and I think I said this somewhere else, that philosophical queries are fine and this is essentially what this forum is about. I suppose a good number of us learnt some things in IGM that need clarification and, who knows, maybe everyone will learn something too! This is in marked contrast to the gossipy topics about who fell down etc. as you rightly point out.

By the by, some time ago a member asked me in PM to give him some reading material of the major controversies re IGM-paramparA, siddha-pranali, rAgAnugA-bhakti and so on, and I dug up most of the immediately relevant threads. This PM is still sitting there in my 'Sent' folder, and if anyone wants this forwarded to them let me know.

I want to be clear that we are not moving away so we can talk a whole lot more about ISKCON, as that topic quickly expanded to include the other eclectic areas of this forum. If it comes up in context of our lives, sure, but we are not as a group caring much about current IGM politics since we are not intending to rejoin those groups. We are more interested in how we moved on in our spiritual life afterwards, whether we reached a new GV tradition or some other path entirely. IGM reformers are best directed to other sites than the one we're designing.

You make some good points and I hope you'll always be free to ask questions and get clarification regarding how what you were taught relates to your new GV path.

I left before the new ISKCON really took hold, so my kids didn't go to Gurukula and I didn't experience the worst of its history either. I have just learned about some events in the 80s and 90s recently and am still processing what I've learned. If it comes up I may comment but I do not have a goal of talking about IGM all the time!

We plan to stay involved in Gaudiya Discussions, but we'll be more likely to come here for the straight Vaishnava topics rather than fill up the bottom of your forum.

Blessed Be--

Tapati

Such an honest and well-said post Lancerji. As someone who is familiar with bombs going off in their spiritual pursuits, I would just like to offer a word of encouragement. At times I thought Krsna had left me. I wondered if I had wasted years of my life going down the wrong path.

I tend to think now that Sri Krsna uses those 'bombs' to destroy the barriers to our realization. I came to the conclusion my progression is up to Krsna. Looking back, the times I thought I was making the most advancement I was playing around on some mental idea of what I thought advancement was.

The times I felt Krsna had totally abandoned me, with no bona-fide guru, no sampradaya, no faith, no money etc.; at that time many of my preconcieved notions about Krsna were pounded to dust. I guess it's what they call tough-love. It's kind of liberating to reach the bottom of one's faith and ill-concieved undersatanding and find Krsna there smiling. Anyway, I was inspired by your post to share a bit, for whatever it is worth. I wouldn't worry much about your future progress being hurt by anything.

Also to second what Tapati says, the site would not be an IGM oriented site. Most of the people who are intrested in it are much farther away from IGM ideas and concerns than some seem to realize!

A lot of people find that a traumatic 'spiritual' experience is often the cause of opening the door to a new period in one's life. This concept of breaking and re-making is one that has always intrigued me. Sometimes it can be rather light (discovering and reconciling a perceived inconsistency) and sometimes it can hit all the way to the other extreme, viz. having one's faith shattered.

Free-associating on the concept of breaking-and-remaking... which has fascinated me as well. "Linear" and gradual growth have their value, but it seems like self-realization never comes without surviving a couple of earthquakes (of whatever nature).

1) Dabrowski's Positive Disintegration theory. One of the wisest insights into the dynamics of spiritual growth I have ever come across; Dabrowski was a Polish psychiatrist writing around the time of the WWII and after.

A link: http://www.star.qmul.ac.uk/~rmh/gdabrowski.html

2) A Golden Thought: "We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking, only to discover that it is God who is shaking them." (Charles West)

3) A song...

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in. (Leonard Cohen)

Interesting discussion going on here but I wanted to bring it back to some of the original points of Kesar. While he has found his soulmate in Krishna in the Philipines, I think we should encourage newcomers to the faith to seek their fullfilment in love and marriage from India as they will be there for the most part more genetically predisposed to Krishna bhakti.

A therapist friend of mine was fond of a quote, I don't know the source, but you might add the word spiritual in front of it in this context:

"Security is the rock you're clinging to as it rolls off the cliff!"

I seriously doubt there is such a thing as a genetic predisposition to Krishna bhakti. maybe there is a karmic or a cultural predisposition to religiosity, but not to Krishna bhakti.

Now that we are suddenly discussing my prized topic Leonard Cohen, how can i possibly not say something. Coincidentally, he lived down by my house, went to the same school, and spent a deal of time in a zen buddhist monastery as a monk. Here he is in this song describing the bombs that go off in there as they intentionally keep pulling the rug out from under you, and in life in general.

I met a woman long ago
her hair the black that black can go,
Are you a teacher of the heart?
Soft she answered no.

I met a girl across the sea,
her hair the gold that gold can be,
Are you a teacher of the heart?
Yes, but not for thee.

I met a man who lost his mind
in some lost place I had to find,
follow me the wise man said,
but he walked behind.

I walked into a hospital
where none was sick and none was well,
when at night the nurses left
I could not walk at all.

Morning came and then came noon,
dinner time a scalpel blade
lay beside my silver spoon.

Some girls wander by mistake
into the mess that scalpels make.
Are you the teachers of my heart?
We teach old hearts to break.

One morning I woke up alone,
the hospital and the nurses gone.
Have I carved enough my Lord?
Child, you are a bone.

I ate and ate and ate,
no I did not miss a plate, well
How much do these suppers cost?
We'll take it out in hate.

I spent my hatred everyplace,
on every work on every face,
someone gave me wishes
and I wished for an embrace.

Several girls embraced me, then
I was embraced by men,
Is my passion perfect?
No, do it once again.

I was handsome I was strong,
I knew the words of every song.
Did my singing please you?
No, the words you sang were wrong.

Who is it whom I address,
Who takes down what I confess?
Are you the teachers of my heart?
We teach old hearts to rest.

Oh teachers are my lessons done?
I cannot do another one.
They laughed and laughed and said, Well child,
are your lessons done?

-----------

Another Leonard Cohen song.
I think this song expresses one interesting probably unoffical way to look at Gaudiya Vaisnavism

Now I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor Fall, the major Lift

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

Your Faith was strong but you needed Proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you
She tied you
To a kitchen chair
She broke your throne, and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah

Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah

You say I took the name in vain
I don't even -know- the name
But if I did, well really, what's it to you?
There's a blaze of light
In every word
It doesn't matter which you heard
The holy or the broken Hallelujah

Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah

I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch
I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you

And even though
It all went wrong
I'll stand before the Lord of Song
With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah

Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is also a Rufus Wainwright version (who also lives in my town haha), that was recorded for some kind of movie that contains these extra lyrics.

Maybe I have been here before
I know this room, I've walked this floor
I used to live alone before I knew you

I've seen your flag on the marble arch
Love is not a victory march
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

There was a time you let me know
What's real and going on below
But now you never show it to me, do you?
And remember when I moved in you
The holy dark was moving too
And every breath we drew was Hallelujah

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

Maybe there's a God above
And all I ever learned from love
Was how to shoot at someone who outdrew you

And it's not a cry you can hear at night
It's not somebody who's seen the light
It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah

Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah

--------------

Aaahhh! Could this have been for the one-and-only Shrek?

And the lineage of the Pandavas from the Gods had nothing to with their martial prowess? Ha ha ha ha, Iskcon devotees, yah gotta love em!

In time when scientists know what to look for, they will be able to isolate the Krishna Bhakti Lata Bija gene and then with the use of stem cells, awaken the dormant love of Krishna within us all with dominant Krishna bhakti genes as opposed to the recesive Krishna bhakti genes more common in non-Bharata Varshans.

Sankirtan has more to do with gene therapy than it does to do with book distribution or preaching or street kirtans.

now I understand your avatar icon

I am sorry that I am commenting on this topic one page later.

Kesar Candan:



I agree with Anu's comment on the starting post, that it is better to deal with one's baggage first. Naturally the longer you wait and the older you get, the harder it is and the more bitter you sound. But you know what, I have seen people who don't even *realize* they have baggage that needs to be dealt with and still live in the looking glass. They can be much more unpleasant than the most disgruntled complaining devotee. Whoever has made even the smallest step on that long and winding road out of the bubble has my deepest respect and sympathy.

I certainly agree with that. There was a friend of ours who used to hang out with us on Istagosthi, and he came over with us when we all migrated to Namahatta. Over the course of time he realised that the content of all our internet discussions were invariably dealing with party politics and personal fights and so on, and he had some spiritual difficulties of his own.

He later came back after a 'rest period' and told us that, apart from going through the motions of almost losing faith in God etc., he had realised what he should discard and what he should continue to do. So he told us that the one thing that kept him on the straight path, as it were, was just simply to read of Krishna's pastimes. He didn't even care if Krishna was an actual divinity or a mythological person as he had become inclined to think; it was just the pastimes in the scriptures that still attracted him.

I kind of admired that. I don't know where he is now, but I admired his way of discarding the "chaff" and keeping the "wheat", he had understood that the essence of his attraction to God was actually the most important thing.

Also, I recently purchased a copy of St. John's 'Dark Night of the Soul' on Angrezi's advice. I haven't begun reading it yet but I have flicked through it and it certainly has a lot of illuminating insights that can explain a lot about how to deal with 'earthquakes' as and when they occur.

We, also need to understand that baggage comes in a couple of varieties. Mainly the mind has two kinds of baggage; the love baggage and the hate baggage. Coming to a forum like this with a bag full of animosity and enmity towards ISKCON is really no better than coming here with a bag full of attachment to a defunct institution and it's official gurus.
Personally, I think that sadhu sanga is a very personal and private affair and not necessarily something done in an institutional or ecclesiastical way. Corperate bhakti is a very poor substitute for sadhu sanga.

Negative feelings towards ISKCON is not really and improvement over sentimental attachment to the corperation.

Personally, the only viable principle I see in kali-yuga is kripa-siddhi.
I don't believe that sadhana-siddhi is really possible for the morbid creatures of kali-yuga. The dispensation of ahaituki-kripa is the only saving grace for the pathetic people of kali-yuga.
As such, I think that an avadhuta is more likely the recipiant of mercy than the sadhakas who are a little puffed-up with their own apparent saintliness. Being proud of being a sadhaka will undo any accomplishments that sadhana can offer.

The six goswamis were popular with the gentle sainly persons and the also the ruffians. The ruffians also recieved the causeless mercy of the Goswamis.

According to Sri Rupa Goswami, one can attain perfection simply the the glance, the well-wishes or the touch of the pure Vaishnava.

Personally, I think that sadhu sanga is a very personal and private affair and not necessarily something done in an institutional or ecclesiastical way. Corperate bhakti is a very poor substitute for sadhu sanga.

Personally, the only viable principle I see in kali-yuga is kripa-siddhi.
I don't believe that sadhana-siddhi is really possible for the morbid creatures of kali-yuga. The dispensation of ahaituki-kripa is the only saving grace for the pathetic people of kali-yuga.
As such, I think that an avadhuta is more likely the recipiant of mercy than the sadhakas who are a little puffed-up with their own apparent saintliness. Being proud of being a sadhaka will undo any accomplishments that sadhana can offer.



True KC,ive had a similar realization this past week or so I realized that I
was so caught up in dogmas I forgot what me brought to Krishna Bhakti realization, the method and the guru would be considered mayavadi as he was advaita,but the Ramana Maharshi- Nan Yar Who am I self enquiry-basically seems to work to calm mind so you are able to see beyond material plane into rasa lila.
So after researching further into Arunachala i found this Yogi ramsuratkumar
and honestly I dont know if I've ever felt so much relief, peace and nectar,well at least so far anyways. Its like I can just let go instead of being weighed down.So I wonder about the whole official sampradaya thing ,it seems Krsna can send any one anywhere at anytime and is not bound to official credentials or dogmas..