Other topics, (iskcon), moving away! - a new home for non traditional content

I think Madhava has pretty much stated that such issues come up because many of us have a shared history with ISKCON at some point. It's going to come up even in casual conversation sometimes, for that reason alone. Are we supposed to chop off 5, 10, 15 or more years of our lives? Whenever we need to refer to that period, and where we lived, are we to say, "Oh, back when I lived in (censored) and we believed (censored) I thought, (censored), but now I've learned that it was actually (insert new philosophical understanding or insight here)."

Or, "Can I ask you about (philosophical issue)? Because back in (censored) I was taught this, but you seem to be saying (that), and I want to understand where the discrepancy lies."

Or, "I'm still trying to recover from living in (censored) and its effect on my ability to be loving and natural with my family. Do you have any suggestions?"

Or, "Did you know (insert name here)? I used to know him back in Chicago (censored) but I haven't seen him in years. Last I heard he was with the (censored censored censored)."

And of course, let's all abandon our natural curiosity about what happened to the person who killed people we knew on the advice of a madman. Censored. Censored. Censored.

Some people will even "snap" at someone for innocently using the terminology for devotional topics that they learned in ISKCON. We can only use the vocabulary we have. A gentle correction is far more effective than a sarcastic snarl.

I've been out of ISKCON for 26 years. For a number of those years when I was first out I didn't want to hear about it at all. It was too painful. I cut off all contact, to the point where I don't know what happened to old and dear friends from that era. Of course many of us scattered. I so blanked out that period that in some cases I can't even remember names. I was so disaffected that I wouldn't allow Indian themed decorations in my home! Now I have woken up and found that I threw out the baby with the bathwater, and lost what was good along with what was bad. I am trying to find some balance and reframe those years for myself. Perhaps as my life winds down I am simply becoming one of those old folks who sits on the porch and reminisces.

I don't want to sit around all day talking about ISKCON, but if the subject comes up and touches something I'd like to remember or explore I may join in. I think it's very artificial to assume it's never going to come up. And in my heart of hearts, I wish ISKCON redemption also, however unlikely I think that's going to be.

I understand people are in all different stages of dealing with the whirlwind impact that ISKCON had on their lives and it may be painful for some to even see the name of the "ghetto" down there near the bottom of the main page, but please have some tolerance and compassion for those who feel a need to "process" their feelings and thoughts about it. They may not want to go to another site and read about it all the time.

(edited to reflect growing expansion of this thread to encompass all of the topics in the lower, non-raganuga portion of the board. edited again to reflect solution of moving non raganuga topics to a new forum entirely to help both parties in this discussion. blessed be)

Fanaticism is fanaticism, whether pro-x or anti-x. I find the middle-way of the Buddha is the way to go.
Indeed Tapati is right, it's a little artificial to skirt the topic when many of us spent so much time in that institution.
If we want to get really strict GD should not allow non-Gaudiyas (such as me) on the site; that would be the next logical step .

I'm still trying to figure out if I'm modern or traditonal ...

Retro, baby, it goes with everything!

This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder how many of the active members of Gaudiya Discussions are actually Gaudiyas? I know I am not...

Gee, maybe we should take a poll!

If you're traditional, you follow the Eight Fold Path and if you're modern, you read Krishnamurti. Different Buddhas for different times.

About this Iskcon stuff, I think for quite a few people, its an addiction and within the drama and intrigue and psuedo philosophy of it all, they have become totally conditioned by it and they cannot see beyond the walls of the box they have built around themselves.

Its something I've done and I've let go. I find it all as well as the people who practice it to be really quite boring.

I would also be curious.

Back on topic:
I think it is not just an accident that members feel the need of an ISKCON topic to start. It is good that we have a separate place to do so - this is accomodation to those who fit well here at GD and don't want to venture on other, far less peaceful forums, whenever they vent a little.

I went this morning to beg madhukari in my underwear, with my japa mala in hand, around my apartment complex.

At the advice of the local police I've now decided to forgo the traditional for the modern route.

(babu)

...and if you are postmodern, read Jagat!

OK, I was told about this topic and since it is a reply to my post on another thread I may as well reply to it. So here goes:


True. Some of us still attend ISKCON temples to associate with devotees, take darshan of the Deities and eat mahA-prasAd. That does not mean we have to talk about it ad infinitum. The fact that we have all been children at some point does not mean we should constantly talk about our childhoods, unless you are a developmental psychologist, maybe!


Nobody expects anyone to chop off a part of their lives. However, I must reiterate that this is one tiny corner of the internet universe which is dedicated to traditionalist topics. Here's a small sample of the type of things that used to be discussed in the early days. I think it was Braja who once rightly said that there is so much nectar in the archives that it would not be an error to suggest that we can just sit down and read the archives. When there are such great topics that offer new realisations every time we read them, and when there are so many other places to discuss IGM topics, why contaminate the atmosphere with veritable irrelevance? I say irrelevance, because it is becoming increasingly obvious that most of the IGM topics offer little or no substantial spiritual content.

What do you think would happen if a TeGkalai entered a Vadakalai forum and constantly brought up TeGkalai topics? What would Vadakalais say if a sub-forum was opened to discuss TeGkalai subjects?


Again, this has been done time and time again here, and everything is there in the archives. I will again be the first to admit having done this [Fall of jiva, anyone? ] and I appreciated the patience with which everyone answered my questions. I don't personally see any problem with philosophical questions being addressed since that is also what this forum is for, but this doesn't mean that people should be persistent enough to keep asking such IGM-centric questions, because the answers are all around and are hidden in plain view. They can be found if one looks hard enough.


That's called therapy, and people pay good money for that!


That topic was started by a friend and I do not wish to criticise him because I feel that I understand his heart. But from an objective point of view, did it offer any substantial spiritual content? Some people here knew Sulochana personally. I only knew him through what was written of him on the net, and I didn't know who Tirtha was until further comments were made. Yes it is a sad story, but must it be discussed here? Those of us who are more than familliar with Puranjana's ravings (especially those of us who are exceptionally fortunate enough to be blessed with his spam) will know that it harbours some of the most un-VaiSNava rhetoric and spewing of vitriolic and bilious hatred. Puranjana's "literature" can also be found everywhere, as well as the ultra-hateful rhetoric of the other warring factions. Thanks to Puranjana, Sulochana's name has been attached to this hatred and it is sometimes no longer possible to distinguish between the two.

Again, substantial spiritual content? No, that topic just brewed anger, bad memories, and a few harsh words as well as misunderstandings. Why start and engage in such topics that promote bad feelings and create a bad atmosphere that leaves a bitter taste in your mouth? Most of the people here used to hang around at famous ghettos like Istagosthi, and we left precisely because we wanted to get away from the constant nastiness and mud-slinging that took/takes place over there. Many of us found calm refuge in this quiet and peaceful place, and so any jealous guardianship is understandable in my view.


Well I don't know anything about that. I don't recall having done this to anyone. However, you gotta love it when someone comes in and says something like "Haribol you stupid rascals, give up your prAkRta-sahAjiyA nonsense and come back back to Prabhupada's ISKCON", or when someone comes in screaming that the "sahAjiyA bAbAjIs should be BOYCOTTED!"


Unfortunately the sad fact is that it will come up time and time again. The history of this forum shows that clearly, and it will certainly continue. Some like Jagat enjoy undertaking sociological analyses of ISKCON and related issues and sometimes gets criticised by his peers for doing so. I personally feel that it is ultimately inconsequential since the various hierarchical structures and business models that ISKCON employs are more or less negligible in the traditional context.
The most important reason why IGM topics should not generally be allowed in here is precisely because of the bad experiences some have had within that institution. It stirs up bad feelings and bad memories, disagreements and misunderstandings, harsh words and malevolent debate, offences are made. This has happened every time without exception - and all for what?

I don't have any access to Madhava's thoughts, but I have seen many instances where participants were gently nudged and informed that this was not a place to discuss IGM and its related issues. But people do not listen and continue to do exactly that, either because they are new and haven't bothered to check the archives or read the rules, or maybe they do actually come here to kick up a fuss just for the fun of it. So perhaps Madhava decided that he should create a sub-forum and be done with it so that people could talk to their heart's content. As I said earlier, I was initially appalled that this sub-forum was created until I realised that it is a necessary evil. I understand it, but I don't have to like it.

This is what I feel Kshamabuddhi and bangli were getting at; it is getting boring and repetitive to see these topics raked up again and again in a forum that has nothing to do with IGM topics, and that perhaps some time should be devoted to getting back to discussing the matters at hand.

Nah, there would be no point in that. How else would we attract nonbelievers and aggressively convert them?


I wonder what MahAprabhu thinks?

I am just curious if you think someone like me, who is in ISKCON, should not post questions, but should rather read the archives only?

I think posting questions, with a genuine interest in the topic, is alot more personal than just reading what others asked....even if it is the same question that has been hashed and rehashed for it is me telling you, "hey, I joined, I am interested, I may not fit as of yet, but I am hear, nice to make your aquaintence"

I will be the first to admit that I did not do alot of investigation when I first joined, and probably still haven't "got it" yet about what GD is and for who it is for...and probably came off quite ISKCONish, and may still (if I do, it is not my intent...I am trying to keep that in check) but I tell you, I have had the best forum experience I have ever had here, like everyones input, and have learned quite a bit.

I am at a point right now though where I am confused as what to do from here...if I am still welcomed, or if it is like, "well? you found out, now g'day Srijiva!...anytime now" because there may be some stigmatism put apon me for going to an ISKCON temple...etc... and what the hay, anyways...it took what it took for everyone to get where they are at...and this is a good thing, right?

I agree that you didn't get anything spiritual out of that topic. However, it gave me an opportunity to work harder at not judging, examining the two inclinations of my lower and higher selves, and check my hypocrisy. I go around saying that redemption is possible even for the biggest demon in the lowest hell, then I am suddenly confronted with the reality of my young friend's father's murderer. And I have to realize, "Oh, yeah, this means him too. Whether I like it or not."

Sulochana wasn't his only victim, btw. Chakradhari is the father I speak of.

In any event, something that may not seem spiritual (and what defines spiritual could be a whole other topic) may still bring about spiritual realizations or progress. Additionally, if this is not an issue for you and you have already reached the pinnacle of realization when it comes to the topic of redemption, the urge for revenge, etc., it may seem useless to you while others get some good out of it that you don't recognize. There's no way you can know how any particular topic affects others.

As for inviting other groups to speak on your forum, if Pagans, who were once burned at the stake by Christians, can invite them to their forum, I think the Gaudiya Vaishnavas here can be equally gracious. That's how peace starts, with an olive branch.

Thus Jagat asked this pagan to come and join in the conversation.

I hesitate to make a comment that might be perceived as hurtful, but sometimes I feel that some people on this site may be lonely, and may want to socialise a bit here and to discuss the old days in ISKCON and the impact that has had on them in various ways. Nothing wrong in that, we are all human, and I myself have plenty of war stories, non-vaishava interests and other varied things to talk about and I don't see why we shouldn't use this site to find kindred souls and communicate with them via PM on such topics. But I'm not sure of the need to have all this material posted in public threads.

Personally I feel that for those that come here urgently seeking deep spiritual discourse (disclaimer - I am not such a person, but I do think some people coming here are!) the creation of ISKCON-focussed threads may seem like a distraction. I also feel the same about overly light-hearted and chatty topics - not because I don't like them (I often do) but rather because that kind of interaction can be found all over the internet in a million forums, whereas this is the only place devoted to raganuga bhakti topics.

So I would humbly ask that perhaps the relative scarcity of online "space" for raganuga discussions could be considered by those wishing to post material on this site?

Like Gaurasundara I also appreciate the spiritual depth of the older topics here. Perhaps those members who want to see more serious raganuga material could look through the topics that are still open and post something on a topic that interests them, with the aim of trying to get some enlivening discussions going? I will try to do that over the coming days, and if anyone wants to they can do the same.

Just my 2 cents worth

The great thing about the computer mouse as opposed to the furry kind, is that it will only go exactly where you want it to go...

(I actually like the furry kind too, just not digging through my box of oatmeal, and nibbling my chocalate )

If people want to see stuff that is more rasik than is currently being posted, by all means post it ! It's not that the IGM section is to blame.

with all it's obvious problems, most of us would not be here if it was not for Iskcon

Iskcon is the cause of all causes? The Iskcon and the omega?

Yes, Iskcon is a reference point but do we have to stay stuck there forever?

The point the lot of us are trying to make is that there is really a whole lot more to life than Iskcon. Being that some here are stuck there, it may be hard to see but believe me, its true.

A separate but related issue is the notion that social or "fun" topics are just a distraction and most of that "getting to know you" stuff should be in private messages. While I do a brisk business in private messages I also think there is value in such topics where a bunch of people who might not think to PM each other interact and learn something new. In fact, PMs are often generated by such topics, or such is my experience.

I think it is along the lines of the reason we have a profile, not in the sense of placing ourselves in a tradition, but rather in reminding those we discuss issues with that we are real live people with hobbies, a sense of humor, a few shared interests, and more commonality than it might seem from our religious stance. We have some sweet or lighthearted interactions, develop some postive good will, and then when we're discussing some touchy and heartfelt spiritual issue we'll remember that the opponent arguing against us shares some of our other interests or ideals. It's called building community.

Why do you have parties rather than only invite one friend at a time to your house, if not to enjoy the interaction of many where jokes and ideas flow and good will is felt towards all? Yes, we can and do enjoy these interactions elsewhere, but I feel that there is real value in enjoying them here. Otherwise, it may become as artificially dry as the dreaded organization we don't want to name.

Let's put the personal back into personalist!

Blessed Be--

Tapati

Personalist is such an Iskcon term, I am sorry, no one outside themselves use it as far as I know. Can anyone here confirm if GM even use it..?
Also why are you so 'pro-personalist' Tapati if your no longer a GV and don't even believe in it anymore..?

The third issue that comes up is the relative lack of space for discussion among members of the Rupanuga tradition who practice raganuga bhakti.

I am not sure what they mean. Is it that there are not multiple forums? Are there enough who practice this tradition in the West who want 5 or 6 forums on it? Is it that there is frustration that other traditions have more web sites? Is there an assumption that they are enjoying all of these many web sites while you only have one?

The site itself is quite large for a forum, compared to some I've seen, and there appears to be plenty of room here for any number of topics based on your tradition. If the owners and moderators wish it to be solely topics concerning your tradition, they have that right and that capability. They can set any limit they want, and they have chosen to make it a little more open than that. If they really didn't want anyone from ISKCON to come here, they could easily make that happen. However, it would become a much smaller forum than it is.

If that is what you wish for, you can certainly lobby in PMs for them to close this site to the riffraff.

When some of you repeatedly post that wish in the public forum, you just serve to make those of us who don't share your tradition feel unwelcome. It is strange for me to have one of the moderators invite me here, only to have others here imply that I am not really welcome unless I can only stick to topics concerning a religion that I have no texts for and a branch that I am not familiar with. My posting elsewhere was well known when I was invited, and there must have been something in it that appealed to Jagat for him to ask me here. I know that others here appreciate my heretic ways as well. (Although those are perhaps likewise people who might be dismissed from a traditionalist only forum.) It was precisely this attitude that made Openmind conclude that he wasn't wanted or needed here.

If the issue is money for this space (and working for an internet service provider I can understand that) I will be happy to help bear the cost for the heretic portions of this forum.

Or perhaps the renegade Bhakta sampradaya* will form its own forum that will be open to all the heretics that are unwanted everywhere else. If I knew how to do the technical end I'd do so, since I have plenty of web space.

*(See Liberal non-literalist Vaishnavism topic at Istagosthi.)

As I've stated repeatedly, it is one of the concepts I retained and brought with me to my Pagan path.

My understanding is that even the "Other Traditions" threads are intended to be explorations and consideration of those traditions from the persective of the above category of "people who share an interest in the teachings and the tradition of Sri Caitanya, the Six Gosvamins and the subsequent great teachers, such as Narottama Das and Visvanatha Cakravartin."

Or am I wrong, and is this site changing into something like Belief.net, which describes itself as


I don't at all want to discourage anyone from coming here, particularly kind and thoughtful persons. But I do personally feel the site needs to maintain a clear vision of its purpose. Of course if many many people join, perhaps the statement of purpose will need to be reconsidered. But at present that has not been done.

Being invited to visit someone's home, does not mean you can move in and redecorate it to your own tastes!

Oh, I am not intending to redecorate. But having allowed other topic areas, and having up front discussed with Madhava where or if I should post, and being told I could keep non-GV topics in the lower end of the board, I feel like it's unfair for anyone other than the moderators to indicate that I and others like me ought to stop talking about other things.

The Christians on the pagan board also said to the moderators, we try to keep our talk of Christian issues to a minimum out of respect as being invited guests, and were told that they were welcome and that is why they have an interfaith topic.

I think there's a difference between being a completely interfaith forum and being a forum primarily dedicated to one faith and welcoming a few others who are interested in reading those topics (which I do) and may want to also discuss various issues from their perspective or as it relates back to the primary tradition.

How that mix works out is up to the moderators. I am only pushing back today because of the criticism of what seemed to me like a few topics or posts in the lower half of the forum. Why is it here if not to be used? I have seen moderators here repeatedly allow topics that are not directly related to GV exist and flourish in the lower section, as long as people try to keep on topic in the upper half. I in fact started this topic down here out of respect as I saw it was being brought up and discussed up there.

The forum will shrink quite a bit if it is restricted in the way you advocate. Like I've said before, I can stop posting and just stick to private messaging with my friends here.

I can imagine there are many reactions to my posting and posting of others like me that don't quite fit, some like us, some get an added spiritual perspective, and some will think we are just distracting from the authorized tradition.

I accept that. But for people to periodically take potshots at us is hurtful. I think those comments are best directed to the moderators in private messages, and likewise those who prefer that non-Gaudiyas can post non-Gaudiya thoughts also state their preferences. It's up to the moderators to decide what they want on their forum and to ask people to accept that also if they want to be here.

I appreciate that each of us looks for specific things out of our forum experience, and that no one forum can fit all of those needs. I hope we can all find a way to work together to accomodate as much as possible the spiritual experiences we are all trying to have. That is the unifying factor; we just may find it in different ways.

Blessed Be

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I hesitate to write this letter but felt that I should simply speak my mind “for the record”. First I want to say that I think we have many contributors to this virtual community who I find to be very thoughtful and kind. I don’t believe that one’s institutional affiliation should define them nor should any theological belief. As we all know no one has cornered the market on compassion, integrity or sincerity so please don’t see my point as one that is meant to define right from wrong or sincere from insincere.

I departed for Vrindavan on December 13 and didn’t participate in GD during my trip with the exception of a post on my diksa initiation. My time in the dhama was a sweet and life changing experience. I won’t claim to have found a “higher taste” but the intensity of what I have been given has not been lost upon me and it has altered how I view my life, interests and so on. Since returning from the dhama and settling back in to life “as usual” I have found it hard to relate with much of what is going on at Gaudiya Discussions. Again without passing judgment on anyone I think the quality of the posts and discussions has deteriorated quickly. This isn’t to say that it has all been bad but I think that GD has a very specific purpose and with the moderators all in the dhama GD has become a bit of a ship without a rudder.

I understand the point that since there is an ISKCON/GM section then it will suggest that such topics are open game here. However the intent isn’t to become a site which comments on those institutions or their challenges rather to house topics and questions which come from those organizations relating to Gaudiya Vaisnavism as a whole. Just because there is a section entitled ISKCON/GM it doesn’t mean that discussions on such topics is encouraged. Those sections are there because they need to be not because they are encouraged to be a focal point. After all the section itself states “Many participants onboard share a history as members of ISKCON or Gaudiya Matha, and therefore may need to discuss related issues. Please do not use this section as a battleground, there are other forums for that purpose.”

I agree with Kamala’s post when she stated “Being invited to visit someone's home, does not mean you can move in and redecorate it to your own tastes!”. So I believe that we should be sensitive that we maintain the integrity and focus of the site. That doesn’t mean that outside interests are bad but simply that they can e shared somewhere else.

I will leave it at that. The moderators may do as they please. It has just been a bit difficult for me to relate with the direction of GD as of late and I find myself hesitating to share anything close to me due to the loose nature GD has started to take on.

Again just my 2 rupees. Radhe Radhe!

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Why I post in the IGM section?

1. When I found this site, the IGM section was up and running, so I took it as a given. I have no experience of the old raganuga forums. I have observed that the moderators (Jagat, Madhava, Braja) themselves have posted IGM related texts for discussion or made comments. Madhava has posted articles from the website of his former ISKCON guru.

2. I find that the members on this site share my understanding about IGM and it is useful for me to discuss IGM issues with them. Most ex ISKCON people are soft and hard ritviks or New Agers, which I am not.

3. I don't post in the raga discussion section because I feel discouraged by the almost zero female participation. As far as I know, the wives of Madhava, Tamal Baran, Radhapada and Advaita (there must be others as well) are all initiated and knowledgeable, but they are conspicuous by their absence here. In the pictures Madhava sends from Vrindavan I also don't see any female Indian devotees. I get the impression this is yet another male run show and the female practitioners are just happy to take care of their respective Thakurjis and Swamijis at home.

In ISKCON I used to bite the bullet and ask at classes all the questions I wanted to ask because I thought that this is what I joined ISKCON for. I have been judged in all kinds of ways for being outspoken, from having a romantic interest in the speaker to new girls assuming I am high up in the hierarchy (something I never was) and call all the shots at the place, and am quick to sense such judgment nowadays. I feel judged here too when I post in the women free raganuga sections, albeit in another way. I feel some kind of expectation to reveal from my side if I am in the club or about to join the club, while at present I am sitting on the fence and I like being there because this is what I need at the moment and what makes most sense to me at present.

I do have an interest in the main subject of the board and do read the raganuga section but I often do it from college during breaks and without logging in. I don't like so much this Big Brother feature of the site which says exactly what you are reading at any moment.

On the other hand, I feel completely at ease in Other Topics and IGM because of Tapati, Dhyana, Satyabhama, evakurvan, Srijiva and all the others who post regularly there.

4. I like layout of the site, it is very user-friendly and simply a pleasure to post here.


*Some other related points*

5. There will be always people who use a certain forum not for its stated purpose. This is just human nature. Just as every temple has its lazies, every forum has its "rebels". It is also interesting to observe how different people find different things off topic. A good example is Bangli who complains of IGM topics but posts unorthodox stuff about Lord Chaitanya.

6. As others before me said, I don't see why the activity in the IGM section should be the reason for inactivity in the raganuga section. If it is a distraction, don't go there. Unless there are more specific guidelines for this section (and for the other non-raganuga ones), I don't see anything wrong with it as it is.

7. Personally I am not so inclined to tell others what topics they should or shouldn't discuss because I can't know for sure that tomorrow I won't need to discuss what I consider a nonissue today. I remember similar complaints being made about one philosophy forum on an ISKCON board, one devotee even suggested that the forum be renamed "Philosophical exchange (for Europeans and other sane people only)" because of the challenging posts from American devotees. A couple of years later I understood precisely why those devotees challenged what they challenged.

8. Madhava has mentioned a few times that he was overloaded with PM's. Maybe those who ask him privately philosophical questions should be encouraged to ask them in public, for the benefit of the newer members for whom the FAQ is not enough and searching the archives doesn't do the trick.

I have been reading GD regularly for more than half a year now, and I don't think the number of IGM-related posts has gone up, or that their quality has deteriorated. But with Jagat and Madhava absent -- both frequent posters in the core GM categories -- the proportions have shifted. Jagat and Madhava are also doing a fast and effective job curbing down occasional rogue posts.

Also, Jagat has a knack for putting the seemingly unrelated issues (IGM and others) in a broader context where they have relevance to the Gaudiya concerns.

I, like Tapati, was invited by Jagat to participate, and he knew where I stood. In fact, one reason it took several months before I acted on the invitation was that this is so clearly a Gaudiya forum. I am aware I am a guest here and am trying to fit in; still, guests have a right to explore the place they have been invited to and use the facilities that are open to them. I don't believe Jagat invited me here in hopes of making me "join". Rather he felt that presence of other perspectives helps enrich and refine the main one that GD stands for.

I sympathize with the "core" GD participants who see there is less raganuga content and more IGM and other stuff only remotely related to their concerns. You wonder why do those with IGM issues to process come and do it here, when there are so many other places out there?

I haven't come here only, or even mainly, in order to "process". That would be unfair to this forum. But "processing" is a part of what I am doing and it will be present in some of my posts. Now I hope I won't make you Gaudiyas upset, but one reason people choose to ventilate their IGM issues at GD, of all places, can be that GD has a broader spiritual context and a supportive atmosphere characterized by open-mindedness and respect, plus that there are people here who are very knowledgeable in things Gaudiya. You guys are just too good for your own good!

I am aware of several forums out there focused on ISKCON. But I would never even dream of bringing up my issues there.

I appreciate the thoughtful and measured responses on this. I personally feel I agree with the position set out by Rasaraj, and also I am sensitive to the spiritual needs and type of participation which others newly initiated and returned from the Dhama might wish from this site.

Technical Aspects of the Problem
In any event, i realised that part of the problem for me may be that I open and use GD primarily by looking at the "Today's Active Topics" page. The benefit of this is that if do this when logged in, the unread posts are clearly indicated so it helps me manage my reading. So this shows me all the recent posts and topics - but the down side is that it is hard to avoid the ISKCON and chatty ones. In order to filter them out I would need to get into the habit of opening GD in the main board index page, and just go to the threads that are in the upper categories. For this I think I could just log in a Guest (maybe that is what other people do). So if it looks like I'm not here, I may be one of the Guests!

Tapati has reminded me in PM that areas of the main board with new topics show the darkened symbol on the left side but that it's not a very clear icon. Maybe Madhava can find a technological solution, such as making those icons more prominent so it can easily be seen when new topics have been posted in the Rupanuga or other sections. Then those who wished to could try to only read posts from that area of the site. Or even better, maybe he could activate a feature enabling the main board sub-pages (for instance here) to show their own "unread" posts to those who are logged in.

(I'm still not entirely happy with this, as I thought this whole site was about Rupanuga/traditional path, but I do understand that my position may be becoming a "minority" one in this growing community).

Participation of women in the Rupanuga area
However Indranilla's comments did raise some thoughts in my mind, in particular I agree that what one wants from the site may change over time. Also I was very saddened to hear that she thinks the Rupanuga section is in some way not aimed at or receptive to participation from women. I see how this impression could arise since no women as far as I know have the many years of having spent time with the babajis etc. But if true this type of subtle discrimination would be deeply ironic in that those interested in that topics are mostly also interested in developing/discovering a female siddha-deha )

I hope the women will become more active in the rupanuga section more in future, as in my (radical?) opinion, being born as a female does give you a unique potential to access some aspects of rupanuga bhajan (and I'm not talking about choice of lipstick shade here!)

So those are just some thoughts aimed at moving the debate forward into the "solutions" area!

I appreciate the thoughtful and considerate feedback on this issue. This is mostly directed to all, with the exception of the next two paragraphs:

Rasaraja, I don't want to detract from your spiritual high. I understand that re-entry into the world after a sublime spiritual interlude can be difficult and sometimes almost painful. I am happy for you that you have been able to go to India and have this experience. You also have earned my respect by the way you normally conduct yourself here.

I also have been disturbed lately by the tone of the forum at times. I am not so much concerned with what topic anyone here would like to discuss, but rather the emotionally unsafe tone with which some discussions take place. The fact that you are not feeling safe to share more of your inner self right now, after the courageous posts you have made in the past, speaks to that.

I think some of us try to hang out "down here" (and I include all the lower topics in this issue, which I often post more in than IGM--until this thread) precisely for the reason Indranila cites: we feel safer and more comfortable here among our own non-conformist kind. I've heard as much from a few others. I've also been getting feedback today that some people who periodically post in IGM are feeling unsafe and unwelcome. It's been growing lately from some of the snide remarks about posting here. So please recognize that tensions are high on both sides, and to me it's even beginning to take on that old feeling we used to get whenever we were accused of not being "bona fide" or "speaking nonsense." I think we all have had a history of feeling blamed and accused of not being "Krsna Conscious" that is an undercurrent in how this issue is playing out. I think it is a sore spot and a vulnerability many of us will always have.

It seems like those who are faithful adherents of the raganuga tradition are now in the position of being the "advanced, fixed up" devotees, and those of us who are not are "the most fallen."

Yet we appreciate and read (even if we aren't in a position to add to) the topics at the top and would be sad to no longer feel welcome here. I have contemplated these past few days if I could be happy just reading. I am simply not the type to "lurk" and so I don't think that will work for me. Yet I am relishing some of the conversations I have with the like minded folks here, both public and private. It has me contemplating if we should start our own forum somehow. (PM me if you are interested in such a thing.) I know a few people over at Ista who are frustrated there as well, that I think would fit into this group well. Satyabhama's forum is sweet, but I don't feel like I have much to add that is in the same mood. I do enjoy reading from time to time.

I also wonder if the split personality of this forum reflects the inner conflicts of the moderators. Jagat appears to enjoy both the strictly raganuga bhakti discussions, and the far ranging intellectual and alternative spirituality discussions. Madhava leans much more to the strict raganuga discussions for himself, but has a liberal attitude. I think they have to decide which course they want and then stick to it. If they are going to have these other topics, then one rule should be that people who use them are not criticized for it. If the use is intended to be limited in scope or content, then set those limits clearly.

I can just stay at the pagan forum, certainly, although I'd miss some of the people here dearly. Yet I find myself there, trying to convey some of where I am coming from in terms of what I carry in belief or experience from the GV tradition. So I end up doing a lot of explaining. Here you see my pagan side because I have to explain how I see something from that angle. There they see my Vaishnava roots for the same reason.

And a big shout out to Indranila for her "where are the women" observations!

So I am still pondering. I am just about one more snide devotional terminology correction from being outta here.

(edited to note that Kamala's post appeared while I was working on this one)

It would be unfortunate, dear Kamala, if you had to resort to reading GD as a "Guest" because of the presence of too many others who are "guests" in the truer sense of the word. But maybe a setting could be made possible where a member can choose to "ignore" (exclude) a forum when clicking on "View New Posts" or "Today's Active Topics". Then in order to see the new posts in the "ignored" forums one would have to go there manually by scrolling down the main page.

Or, each group of forums could have its own "View New Posts"" command.

I am afraid, though, that this would require quite some tweaking with the software...

Here's an issue that Dhyana may be concerned with, among some others.

I am sure many remember the Jamadagni and Kanupriya topic. It concerned a pivotal conversation with ACBSP that highlighted problems in ISKCON that were never corrected, and showed a side of ACBSP that many of us had never seen.

I know that one of the primaries in that conversation has been transcribing the tape since that topic appeared, and has been preparing to post it. Some of us really want to read this. It had a great impact on everything that followed, in my opinion.

I hope our conversations here do not discourage this person from posting the full transcript, as so far we have only seen a very small portion. It is not available through any public archived source.

If you would like to see this posted, please mention it.

Thank you--

Tapati

Just doing a little survey of the forum, and I note that the topics at the top section have been receiving less posts, especially with Jagat and Madhava offline lately. Perhaps yet another factor in the frustration level of the traditional raganuga bhaktas is that the lower topics are getting more posts.

The only cure for that is more activity in that area, and I can't help with that. I have decided that I will altogether stop posting in that section. It should return to a more normal balance when Jagat returns or they get their internet back on.

The hottest topic up there right now is the bheda abheda topic.

Here is my opinion for whatever it's worth.

I completely understand the point about wanting to keep this raganuga board raganuga. However i dont think it's so obvious and easy to delineate what topics are raganuga and what topics are not. Sometimes something that appears contrary or ailien to the tradition isn't really so at all. Sometimes when you are in a certain mood, you see meaning not in just the obvious, like in a krishna avatar, but even in the most mundane of things like Dhyana's leaf avatar! This is how the mercy of radha krishna transforms your silly seemingly mundane material life into something inspiring, no? Do you think the -only- place to get raganuga is in stuff like sastra? (This is a serious question).

Should we segregate our lives into raganuga vs other, meaning that when we are living the 'other' part of our life it has nothing to do with raganuga? From the profiles I see some people do tai-chi. Tai-Chi isn't officially raganuga. Should it be thought of as 'other' or 'guilty pleasures?' Are these things not raganuga because you remove your raganuga heart when you engage in them? This compartmentalization of ideas is debilitating. And to use a comically familiar phrase yet intended in all seriousness: i don't think it's good for your spiritual life.

Does raganuga exist only when you are reading sastra, or does it exist even in the seemingly ungodliest of places, like one poem written by Jagat once insinuated here: http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/index.php?showtopic=1866 (a great poem that captures what im trying to say beautifully).

Not saying this is me, but some people are by nature more into being cerebral.
Even if they do try to keep the topic on obviously raganuga things, ideas are slippery little fishes that all interrelate with eachother. Sometimes you just can't help but see connections between disparate things, or compare and contrast things. Especially when you are in constant dialogue with all sorts of ideas. I don't understand at all this notion that exposing yourself to any other belief system is poisonous to your bhakti. I find it absurd and insulting. Jagat once suggested it would be perhaps helpful for a devotee to get a b.a in religion. When you do that you are exposed to all sorts of deviant philosophy and mostly -every- hinduism class you take is advaitan or related. Should you fast avoid such a degree in case it disturbs your raganuga? This is absurd. I don't know if it's helpful, but avoiding it is absurd.

Ghandi said, I worship no God before truth. It seems to me more sincere to sincerely look for a truth, than to hold fast to neat narrations of 'how things are' in order to fit into a cult of belonging. This shirking away from other ideas for fear of distraction or disturbance tells more about the potency of your own faith, than anything else. Sometimes disturbing contrary ideas can even help deepen and better define your own faith. It is a shame if you avoid them out of fear of shifting your worldview. Or losing the only group of friends you have. Or no longer feeling like you're In The Know because the more you hear about other things the more it problematizes things.

At points it seems publically embarassing other people who talk about so-called 'other' things, is used as a springboard to showcase how you used to be like that but are now more 'advanced' because you no longer talk about iskcon or television. Whatever.

I completely agree with Rasaraja when he says that after coming back from india, sitting at the computer to read a messageboard is completely underwhelming. Not to sound new agey, but i feel the radiation and sound vibration emanating from the computer isn't conducive to helping you live a life of sadhana, but very detrimental. Though we don't realize it. On top of that, of course these types of jnanic discussions found here can't compare at all to being absorbed in bhajan experientially at home or in india. We are human and work with language and though it's incomplete sometimes we leave that other world and partake in this one, because we are human and need to talk. And i don't think anything we can say approaches the sweetness of actual practise, -not even- if we are trying to talk about obviously raganuga topics by quoting agreeable sastra quotes. That being said and implicitly understood, a board like this is still great.

Maybe your feelings are also a result of that, and not just the perceived 'decline' of quality chat, just because some people decided to talk about wine or meat at the bottom-grotto of the board (for shame!).

Lastly, I agee with Indranilla on the female issue because the exact same questions crossed my mind months ago. One time i was in the chat and i had a question that no one i knew was able to put at ease for me, and i am the type of person whose question is never really put at ease, but Malatilata spoke on it so wonderfully, i came out of that chat feeling like i rarely feel after i've tried to raise a question. Since then i feel i am missing out a lot by the fact that she doesn't post. And am i confused as to why she doesnt, when she obviously has so much to offer to people like me. And i am sure to others.

I never thought me going to india would be a problem. After associating with devotees i came to see that not only will it be hard for a female to go to india alone because "it's india," but it will be even harder once i get there because it seems there are barely any female practioners in this tradition, as is evidenced by the pictures. And when i mean practioners i don't mean interested visitors but people who are full time sadhana-doers (for lack of a better word, someone correct me). It is very ennerving to me the idea that i'd be sticking out like a sore thumb, but -more importantly,- that i will not be allowed to go where i want to go because of my gender. But be obligated to choose from a rag-tag selection of places mainly comprised of people who are only there because they are widows. I have no idea how it is, but this is what i am learning from my internet searches.

And even if i do find some place that accepts me, my gender will probably still be the main lens through which i'll be viewed, no matter who i am and what i am there for. Like i will be instantly led into spending most of my time sewing and cooking as males are led into things like kirtan, and studying sastra, as has been my real life experience. And when you try to do otherwise you are made to feel unnatural. Not to say cooking is less high, it just possibly may not be me. I don't even know if it is. Who knows maybe not everyone is like that, i dont know. In my idealistic view it had never been a question since i figured gender won't be an issue unless i make it one, and it shouldn't be an issue when you're dealing with religion. But the incontrovertible surprising reality keeps creeping up as i try to tell myself no no, if i'm really sincere none of that will matter.

I thought it was only an iskcon practise how females are mainly there as 'wives-to-be' for brahmacaris. It seems to be that females wanting to pursue sadhana full time alone is seen as strange within these traditions. It seems most females just get married to a bhakta and just lay low. Whereas males go join ashrams in india and it's fine. And even on this board why is every wife so quiet. I have no idea someone tell me.

-----

Regarding the Jamadagni/Kanupriya conversation transcript that Tapati has mentioned:

I have been in touch with Jamadagni in December and early January. He wrote an intro providing some background to the conversation, and he has either completed or was about to complete transcribing. His plan was to write another text with some of his reflections and conclusions after the conversatin, then perhaps join GD and post it. In any case he wanted to let me know when he is ready.

I don't think the mood on GD is of such a kind that would discourage Jamadagni from posting his opus here. My guess is that he is simply not ready, perhaps having too much else to do. Or maybe he has realized he has much more to put in writing than what he initially thought.

I can write him and ask how things are going.

I became concerned that the anti-posting-in-IGM sentiments would suggest to him that his input wasn't desired.

He sounded like he was almost done when I spoke to him last month, he said "a week" but I assume he got busy teaching his classes, etc.

I am eager to read it as soon as he is able to post it.

Maybe we can lobby Advaitadas to boost the Raganuga topics with some of his wisdom. I know that in spite of their differences, Madhava and Jagat highly respect his knowlege of the tradition.

evakurvan, I enthusiastically agree with your post, share your sadness about the lack of women sadhus in modern GV traditions (the Buddhist women are living in caves for a decade or more, we can't live in Vraja as a renunciate? Unless we cook?), and assure you my tongue was firmly in cheek with the guilty pleasures topic. (Aside from my distaste for encouraging reality tv in any way, shape or form.)

Perhaps Malatilata can't pry Madhava away from the computer long enough to get on herself? Maybe they need to be a two computer family!

I haven't even "met" her yet!

I went out dancing last night and in feeling the rhythms and grooves, I got to feeling some of the comments I made gave a partial understanding of how I feel about this.

As far as Iskcon topics, I personally feel they should be presented in such a way as what were some of the truths we learned there or how can one move beyond the limitations as they may have conditioned one. As such, a discussion Jamagdagni would bring to the table could be helpful to many in this regard.

The teachings of Iskcon hold the sharing of feelings and understandings with outsiders in a very low comfort zone so it could be expected that those who are of the hard core, would not visit here as its not their thing. Those of the Iskcon bent who do visit here would be those who are pondering that there is something more or some things they were told were falsehoods and so if the many mature posters here could offer gentle guidance to these souls, it would be a wonderful thing.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

I realize that maybe I was a bit unclear as to why I felt the posts were of lower quality. First I would like to clarify that my comments were not simply a byproduct of my just taking diksa or about the come down upon returning from the dhama. Yes, those things are of course there but it isn’t the main reason for my disappointment.

My point is that for many of us that participate at Gaudiya Discussions this is an important medium for Vaisnava association. It isn’t just one of several boards that we post at or visit each day (there are many sites which are of the "everything goes" feel). For many Gaudiya Discusions is a part of our lives and how we get to communicate with like minded Vaisnavas around the world. It is a way to seek inspiration through theological discussion and hearing other sadhakas speak of what has or is inspiring them.

Sometimes this is achieved by hearing someone talk of a particular verse one is reading, or commentary, a song one sings or service to one's Guru, Thakur or Vaisnavas. Sometimes it is derived in hearing someone speak of how they have overcome adversity in their lives. Regardless of the medium what one is probably expecting from a site called Gaudiya Discussions is discussions primarily based on Gaudiya thought, concpets, etc. Whether it is in the context of personal, social or theological is not of the concern but that it is tied to the essence of the website is what one would expect.

If we feel we can’t speak of such subjects due to our own disqualification or past then we need to get over that hump. At some point we need not wallow in our conditioning or past but seek a higher one. This isn’t artificial but a needed dynamic in everyone’s life.

Personally I like to view participation in Gaudiya Discussions as a "change agent". This means it is a tool or outlet that allows us to seek spiritual association and inspiration to rise above our own disqualifications and experiences. Discussing those same disqualifications, experiences and struggles is indeed part of the process but it should be the smaller part. The larger part should be about what will uplift us.

As a District Manager I have monthly meetings with my Team. At these meetings we discuss different initiatives and timelines which impact our business. However the most critical part of the meeting is when we open up the meeting into an open discussion where we “put it all out on the table” (i.e. issues, challenges, dislikes, frustrations, etc.). As an employee and employer I have always found that when we all share elements of our profession that present obstacles to our success it can be a powerful experience. First it can be a relief to know one isn’t alone. Most importantly you can learn how others work through such challenges and successfully meet their goals in spite of them.

When having such an open forum with my Team it is extremely important that we all realize that the point isn’t to vent but to figure out a solution. Anyone can point out a problem but without giving constructive ideas as to how we overcome the problem what will be the fruit of the exercise? If everyone vents but no one focuses and steers the conversation into what we can do as individuals or as a group to improve what we face then what are we left with? Maybe we find company in our misery but with nothing tangible to help us improve our situation the very point of the conversation is lost!

It seems a bit misplaced to use this site to vent ones frustrations without bringing it all back to what this site is about: Gaudiya Discussions. It would seem the goal of such conversations at Gaudiya Discussions would be to discuss what we will do in our personal lives or ask others what they do in their person lives, from the perspective of Gaudiya Vaisnava practice or theology, to heal or improve ourselves. Otherwise it simply seems misplaced.

Does that mean that non Gaudiyas aren't welcome or that non Gaudiya remedies aren't welcome or even exist? No. It simply means that we should contextualize the conversation with the place we are having the conversation. For example I always found Keshava's input in the discussions to be interesting. He no longer finds himself a Gaudiya Vaisnava but he shares his insights and experiences in the context of Gaudiya Vaisnava practice and the aim of the Gaudiya Discussions board.

Would one expect to visit a fitness board and see most of the conversations centered on real estate? Now maybe one participates in a fitness site and through looking at the practical aspects of life, i.e. ones profession, diet, location etc. the discussion turns to the advantages of jogging on the beach or swimming in the ocean. One may find themselves a bit out of the conversation if they live in rural Kansas (or Umea Sweden for International participants!). So they inject that they don’t have that option so they would like other suggestions or maybe “since I don’t live somewhere that affords me such a great environment for outside exercise I do this”. That would be productive in relationship to the site they are participating in.

However if the conversation turns to Real Estate and why one can’t live on the beach or near one because it is so expensive and rural living is much more practical and it never gets back to fitness… well… it is misplaced and will leave some to think “what does this have to do with fitness”? It isn’t that these individual are less flexible or don’t like those that don’t live at a beach rather it is about wanting a fitness site to be primarily focused on fitness.

Someone pointed out why other Vaisnava or faith based boards don’t appeal to them. Maybe the member’s are too harsh, political, etc. In essence how can one seek spiritual association and upliftment if the very mood or the content shared by a group of the participants seem contrary to the essence of the board itself? Well I think this is all that I and Kamala may be pointing out. It is just a way for us to request that we keep the board focused on its intent.

Just because a moderator invites those that no longer find themselves practicing Gaudiya Vaisnavism that doesn’t mean that one is subtly or inadvertently asking to water down or unfocus the content. It may be that although one is no longer practicing such a faith or has chosen to practice another that the host believes the individual has some valuable insights to share regarding the content or essence of the site.

If one wants to know how to delineate what topics are raganuga and what topics are not I believe it is quite simple. Does the conversation or conclusion make you want to deepen your commitment to Guru, the Vaisnavas and Sastra?

I am simply stating that Gaudiya Discussions, when all is said and done, should be about having Gaudiya Discussions! Let’s focus the board on discussing the gifts of our Acaryas and our desire to serve Sri Radhika and her Yugal Kishor. This should be our aim when interacting at Gaudiya Discussions not just a side note or backdrop.

Everyone has the right to disagree and I have no problem with that. I just wanted to voice my concern.

Radhe Radhe!

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas
Rasaraja dasa

I have just read through this topic and want to express a few things:
1). I would love to hear a stronger voice from the women of our community - to someone who was concerned about women vairagies (renounciates) - there are places for women renounciates to live and stay in Vraja. In Govardhan, my Blessed Guru's Ashram has a seperated part for the the 'Matajis' (women renouciates) to live. They were welcome in the main temple all the time, but choose only to participate in aroti and utsovs (celebrations). The Gaudiya Tradition still seems quite male driven. There was a great Mataji (mid-aged) who I use to visit in Radha-Kund - wonderful - out spoken and acting as a Guru (i believe). She was/is? wonderful! She was from the Nitai-Gour/Radhey-Shyam camp.

2). I too feel uncomfortable participating here for several reasons. One is that, although I know about Iskon and have even heard Bhaktivedanta Svami give a lecture one time, I have never lived in an Iskon Temple or have gone through its conditioning. I never joined because of the cult, etc mentality I witnessed - yet I appreciated the kirtan and Dieties, and did seva for Ratha-Yatra, etc for years. Two is that there seems to be pride some people here have about their intellectual abilities and musings. Three is that I feel vulnerable sharing here - I feel like I am an outsider - I lived in the four Holy places of The Gaudiya Vaishanava Tradition with a group of Babajis - our life centered upon the seva of our Blessed Siddha Guru and non-stop Bhajan. I lived this life for many, many years - in the late 70's & 80's. I don't know how to refute people here - nor "prove scriptually" what I know due to living the life for so many years, etc.

3). If we want to be a community here we really need to be aware of the problem(s) that arise due to this type of communication. We have to be overly sensitive to people here and express ourselves with care - and love and concern for everyone who is here. An open mind as well. It is hard to believe that this is a tradition of deep-deep experience, but it is!
we are here to realize and with that comes a soft heart - ahingsa (non-violence). And Divine Love ! Love for all beings especially those engaged in spiritual cultivation.

I totally honor your seeking inspiration from a theological discussion but many of us here as well as great saints capture the mood of Krishna and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu through poetics and so if there appears to some type of free form celebration here, it is because of that and something hopefully you will try to understand as sometimes you are dismayed by it as being Vaisnavically incorrect. In truth, it is the total celebration of what it means to be Krishna bhakta.



For some of us, Radha and Krishna seeps out from everyone and everything and so the exploration of everyone and everything is within view. William Blake saw Her in a grain of sand. Our own beloved Jagat see Him in lots of different things. While we get this may not be the strictest Gaudiya teaching as recieved through the goswamis, Sri Chaitanya had other associates such as the ati-bati Jaganatha dasa who presents other understandings of Him so I don't think its fair to the memory of Mahaprabhu to insist upon sectarian understandings as above all things, we are concerned here about understanding His avatara.

Radhe Radhe!

I am all for attempts to capture the mood of Krishna and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu through poetics and if that comes out in free form celebration then great! I just think it should be focused on and leading us to the gifts of our Acaryas and our desire to serve Sri Radhika and her Yugal Kishor. Again is this not the very aim of Gaudiya Discussions as opposed to just a side note or backdrop?

I am not seeking a board of scripural quotes or traditional outlets. Rather one that, when all is said and done, is focused on Gaudiya Vaisnava practice and life.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I do try to relate much of what I post back to the goal of achieving love of God. I deliberately try to use general and inclusive language like that in order for it to be meaningful both to me and the other participants here, whether they follow GV or not.

However, I take your point(s), Rasaraja.

I am in discussion with others about starting a forum that will be of use to those who are culturally GV and still value much of the tradition, but don't literally believe in it any more. I see there is a vital and unfulfilled need for this. Anyone who may be interested can PM me. I know someone whose technical expertise I can engage.

Then we will have an outlet for the kinds of things that are disturbing the good people here, and can bring only strict Krsna katha to this site.

I think it may be the best solution. It will take some time and money, however, so it will require some patience.

Blessed Be--

Tapati

Bangli, what I would find helpful is that when you correct a former ISKCON term, you kindly give me the new term I ought to be using. I would appreciate that. For instance, Mina explained to me why he doesn't like the term "Prabhu" and then gave me traditional alternatives. That was helpful.

Perhaps someone could create a glossary of old terms---> the correct traditional terms. That would be incredibly useful for newcomers who innocently use the terms they've been taught and used for many years.

Personalist / Impersonalist is not just an Iskcon term, but it's biased and when you use it you implicitly show yourself out to be against the mayavadis. And it's chockpalked full of assumptions and misunderstandings. Advaitans can use it though, when trying to talk about something. Just like i keep using mayavadis so that we understand eachother even though i know it's wrong. I don't think you're using it to demean anything so who cares, it's exactly as though you're saying Personal / Impersonal as it's used in English. This Impersonalist is not offended!

jai sri krishna
--------------
My dear Friend, if you desire to enjoy the company of material society, friendship and love, then please do not go to see this smiling boy Govinda, who is standing on the bank of the Yamuna and playing His flute, His lips brightened by the beams of the full moonlight.

Well I guess it's true it's not just an Iskcon term alone..

It was just overly used ad-nauseum to the point of overkill...

Guess I would have been more accurate to have said.. 'That's so Iskcon'

edited to remove option of sharing another forum space that we decided against.

I haven't attentively read all posts in this thread, but I certainly sympathize with the heading. I would really feel very honored and happy if we could steer the majority of our discussions to the direction this board was originally set up for, namely topics that we currently find under Rupanuga Gaudiya Discussions.

The other sections are an addition that is there for those who feel an inclination to discuss topics of a wider range, and in all honesty they are there to keep what I consider the main section of the forums focused, but those other sections should not become the prominent section of this discussion forum, ever.

I think everyone is in agreement with your first paragraph. The confusion and discussion centers around those of us who are being made to feel guilty or receiving snide remarks for posting in the lower sections, which we are being told should also be related back to the above topic area every time. Otherwise, we are told, we are interfering with or distracting from the upper section.

We can't really control how many people choose to join in these topics at any given time, or the ratio of posts in either set.

I will continue with my alternative forum plans which will hopefully give some of us another outlet and reduce the use of the bottom portion of your forum, and thus help solve the problem on both sides.

There's an additional issue that if those of us who are no longer Gaudiya try to discuss topics on the upper section, we are criticized for our vocabulary, lack of knowlege, or lack of sanskrit ability, in such a way that we are quickly discouraged and fall back to simply reading without commenting, for the most part. (I think many of us stick to Q and A section.)

I agree with all the points made in this thread they are all valid
I would just like to add this other point.

I don't understand why the real raganugas are blaming other people for their own lack of ability to generate posts about raganuga because Jagat and Madhava
aren't here to do it for them. Especially since the 'other topics' part of the forum has remained THE SAME AS ALWAYS. You do not pretend it's your neighbour's fault if you're unable to follow a regulative principle, just because your neighbour is enjoying a cup of coffee. Or maybe the fact that someone here decided to talk about stamp-colleting or tango or crossword puzzles, is polluting your purity so much that it has made you unable to post anything about radha krishna. Get Real. I don't see anything horrible happening outside of people discussing how they sometimes read sci-fi. If there has been, I have missed it, so please post it here.

If your section doesn't get more posts the reason for it is you.
Or the fact that all the other realer raganugas out there ARE JUST NOT BOTHERING ENOUGH TO RESPOND TO THEM ACTIVELY.
I dont see what that has to do with anyone else.
It isnt a competition about who gets more posts.
Instead of wasting all your energy to write long letters of complaint, thus generating more unbonafied posts, and simultaneously engaging in them yourself,
why not use that energy to inspire yourself so you can actually generate some.
As opposed to using it to write long polite letters implying how people like me tapati and others are so uninspiring and so unraganuga.
Insinuating it's the fault of others is childish.
No one can take your inspiration out of you but yourself.
Not realizing that the 'other' topics are continuing just as they -always- have,
is weird.

That all said, i do get your points also.

I have spent an entire day posting in the bheda abheda topic i started. I consider this to be (in my opinion) a real gaudiya topic. And the topic is booming with posts.
If you actually have something to say, instead of blaming others because you don't, start saying it and saying it passionately, and others WILL react.

I fully wholeheartedly support this desire to engage in more obvious raganuga topics, and here is a list of the sort of stuff i am always wanting more of:

1. More discussion about the actual sadhana

2. More discussion about the music and songs. What they mean. Personal Intimations of what they mean. The role of music and songs in sadhana. I think Ananga can help with this and Talasiga. I dont know who else knows about these things.

3. More sastra quotes BUT accompanied by personal intimations of what they mean, or what they mean -to you.- Not just obvious meaning.

4. No sastra-battles of just cutting and pasting sastra after sastra trying to show off who can find the arch-sastra to prove the absolute point on an issue. This sort of thing ruins the mood with this tedious obnoxious refrain of redemanding and redemanding 'sastric evidence' to discourage people from posting or trying to make them feel unlearned. It reminds me of the similar constant refrain.. 'Prabhpada said.' Meanwhile Prabhupada said different things on the same topic for different occasions.

Stop wanting to believe your sastras have no contradictions. These things aren't the Laws of Manu. They are meant to be often paradoxical. That's what makes them worth it. Sastra are songpoems not meant to be used as court of law indightements. It doesnt matter how many books you've read. This sort of mood is hyper-jnanic in the worst sense of the word and kills bhakti. JD33 who spent all these years living with babajis had the guts to point this out.

5. More posting of personal poems in general by everyone, including the talented talasiga and jagat whose poems have already brought me so much inspiration. And doing so without this excessive self-consciousness of being thought of as arrogant or innapropriate. Things like these bring inspiration. It is more important to worry if you're being a show-off when sastra-battling, then when sincerely sharing these sort of things.

Feel free to disagree with me. If I am overstepping my bounds, better to tell me here than to not tell me.
-----------

Radhe Radhe!

I would imagine that most of this post is directed towards me since I have been the one to specifically point o the need to focus the board and post content more on the actual essence of the board itself. Just a few points in response:

1. I am not asking for more posts about x topic over y topic. Simply that they are relevant to the Gaudiya Discussions board. In all honesty it would be more important to me to see two posts per week of content that speaks to the heart of the site then to see 250 which a small percentage do. I am one that believes that quality is much more important than quantity. So I am not "blaming" anyone for the smaller number of "raganuga" posts but stating that it would be nice if the posts contained within the board were more focused on the essence of the board itself.

2. Just because there is an ISKCON/GM section doesn’t mean that it is meant to capture anything remotely attached to ISKCON/GM. The idea is one can share any thoughts from that sphere that tie into the discussions going on in the other sections of Gaudiya Discussions. Again if one went to a fitness site and there was a section for those in different types of Geographical Locations, hence a different environment available for exercise, would you expect that it should become a Real Estate classified area?

So even regarding a section entitled ISKCON/GM it should tie back to the intent of the board. If it doesn’t then maybe it belongs on a board that is meant for all things ISKCON/GM (like an Istagosti.org).

3. The analogy that anyone is putting off their own devotional failures because of the content is silly and misplaced. I am not blaming you or anyone for bringing my consciousness down. Simply stating that what always made Gaudiya Discussions so great is that it wasn't like the other boards. It was a board with a very diverse group of contributors with very different backgrounds and even very different current outlooks/lifestyles and beliefs. Still there was an air of seriousness, and I don't mean "no fun allowed", but a focus on improving our devotional lives and understanding our great gift. I think this is missing a bit these days. Again I don't think the fact that people talk about the subjects which they are posting is a sign of anything bad, immature, or whatever negative title you may want to throw on it. I just believe that certain things should take place in certain places.

I liked the analogy that someone used saying just because you get invited into someone’s home it doesn't mean you should rearrange the furniture.

I will go even farther and say that just because one is invited into a home and asked to work as an interior designer it doesn't mean they just move the furniture, rip up the floors and start painting. Rather they take the ideas of the host and try to help design a home in that taste and the essence of their vision.

4. "If your section doesn't get more posts the reason for it is you. Or the fact that all the other realer raganugas out there ARE JUST NOT BOTHERING ENOUGH TO RESPOND TO THEM ACTIVELY." What does the quantity or lack there of, of posts in one section or the other have to do with anything? I am not asking for more posts anywhere rather that we be more conscious that our posts and topics are relevant to the essence of the board.

5. "Instead of wasting all your energy to write long letters of complaint, thus generating more unbonafied posts, and simultaneously engaging in them yourself, why not use that energy to inspire yourself so you can actually generate some. As opposed to using it to write long polite letters implying how people like me tapati and others are so uninspiring and so unraganuga."

It would be great to see where I made a judgment on any individual and pointed anyone out as "uninspiring and so unraganuga". Please don’t read into what I am saying. I am a blunt person. If I thought that I would say it for you. Also in one sense you are stressing that the site should be an extension of the self but isn't and extension about the self or a community about improving the quality of our lives and such?

6. I loved your list of potential topics (i.e. sadhana, meaning of music/songs, how one internalizes sastra, etc).

7. "Stop wanting to believe your sastras have no contradictions." Not sure who this is aimed at...

8. More posting of personal poems without this excessive self-consciousness of being thought of as arrogant or inappropriate would be terrific.

Finally I didn’t make my initial post because I wanted to make this an ongoing topic. I have made my point and will now leave it alone.

Radhe Radhe!

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja das

My post wasn't a reply aimed directly at you, this is a very long thread with many comments in it and you aren't the one making those kinds of remarks.
I agree with all your very reasonable points and find you a very respectful person.
The only comment i could disagree on is the one where you insinuate some people here are are invited guests, yet are tearing up the carpets and removing the wallpaper, but should know their place as guests.
I don't see anyone acting that way, but still, reading that comment from within the entire context of your post, i'm not going to dwell on it because your whole post is totally reasonable. And I'm glad we share an interest in what type of raganuga topics we are into.

Really most of everything said here by the real raganugas is very reasonable, except for the rare very biting phrase. I just felt i should say something to defend some good people who feel bad because of these -very biting phrases-

The main reason to add my post was to say how
1.no, the 'other' section has not changed.
2.The Raganuga has.
3.Because Jagat and Madhava aren't here.
4. And it isnt the fault of the other topics.

This trend has always been here, I remember Madhava tried to start a nice topic awhile ago that got like 5 posts and just died. For some reason it is thought that the cause of this trend are the 'other' people being here - but it's not. That was my addendum.


--------

Rasaraja wrote:


The following comments are directed not just towards Rasaraja, but anyone who has written or feels like we came in here to change the tone or content of your forum once we were invited:

What I see happening, Rasaraja, is that Jagat enjoys eclectic discussions of religion which he loves to relate back to his tradition. (I enjoy this too.) So he goes out and gathers in people who, in many cases, obviously don't believe in Gaudiya Vaishnavism anymore. He sees our posts elsewhere, or knows us, and knows we are no longer Gaudiya Vaishnavas, and understands the kinds of things we are used to writing, and he invites us anyway. I have a shared history here with one GV tradition (and please, no one send me any more PMs telling me how mine wasn't a "real" GV tradition) and I enjoy synthesizing it with my own path or processing my history in it. But I am not a believer.

So what he did was get some real estate people in who USED to exercise, don't really want to anymore, and invited them in to discuss topics among fitness buffs. (And would the news section be only news about fitness? And the tech section only about fitness devices? And the controversial section, can that be for heretics who say you can be healthy without exercise?) Or maybe we still excercise, but in a very different and controversial manner than the rest of you. And maybe we like to talk about sunsets once in awhile, and in fact were when Jagat found us.

In other words, we thought we were asked over because what we were talking about already was wanted here. There was no real discussion with us about what he saw as our role here.

Then Madhava comes along, and he's trying to be a more traditional fitness guru, and he reminds people, hey, the topic is fitness. Or x type of fitness activities. And some people make snide remarks or send us interesting PMs saying that even our former background in fitness is suspect because our fitness guru wasn't legitimate somehow. And the terms we use are all wrong, we are so real estate.

And we're saying, then why were we invited? We have a whole different outlook on that topic.

And we feel a little like we were set up or betrayed. And are unwelcome, because we can only be who we are, not pseudo GV people.

I think that you are seeing a lack of unity and clarity among the moderators that has brought us to this misunderstanding, in all innocence on both sides, of what we are here for.

So some of us are planning to take our non-GV katha elsewhere and will get out of your hair. Then we can come here only when we have something specific to say about GV.

To my fellow non-strictly-GV posters:

It seems the early consensus is our own forum rather than sharing Istagosthi's, although that was a kind and generous offer.

I am soliciting input about what we want, so please PM me if you would like to join in.

GV folks will be welcomed as well. I would say the core rule will be no denigration of anothers' belief or disbelief in any religious or other philosophy (ie, no "you're in maya" comments) but rather, inter-faith discussions of philosophical issues are welcome no matter what the perspective you come from. Real estate discussions are just fine too, please give input as to which mundane topics you'd like to see.

The unifying factor, as I see it so far, is that we came from or were/are interested in GV tradition(s) but we are not presently true believers (although true believers are welcome to our inter-faith discussions) or sole believers in GV. We value association with others who shared that experience and thus can better understand its influence on our lives and current beliefs. (We are also not interested in taking sides among the many versions of GV existing today.) It is our jumping off point, so to speak. We are people who enjoy talking about issues of faith and religious philosophies but are not wanting to be limited to that.

Five of us are in so far. I hope you will join us. I know some more people who may join in and we plan to advertise when we're up and running.

ISKCON topics are not the main focus, although an area will be reserved for them. No judgments about how much you wish to process as our needs and interest in it varies. Reformers ought to be redirected, though, since that is not our project. We wish them good luck!

Your input now will shape the final product and expression of focus, so please speak up! I welcome your private messages. I am not considering my word to be the last one, nothing is set in stone.

Blessed Be--

Tapati

Thank you so much for making these points.

An update on our forum project so we can get out of the way of GV topics here:

So far 7 people are interested, 4 of us potentially moderating or advising.

I am looking into the same kind of forum software used here, the paid version that won't have ads. I am contacting my geek friend who ran a forum this week for advice about admin.

Trying to think of a domain name that may work well, is short (since it will be combined in a url with forums.com) and catchy, easy to type, etc.

Still taking suggestions for topics and topic areas. Even if you are a traditionalist who'd like to visit, suggest any topics you'd like to see in either the inter-faith discussion or the mundane subjects sections. Maybe something you sometimes wish you could discuss here, since there will be some crossover among boards.

I think this is the best solution because it will give Jagat an outlet for the eclectic discussions he enjoys, and keep GV for GV topics.

I am glad we had this discussion because it highlighted for some of us that we are wanting even more of what we do in the lower sections, in an even freer environment, and this served as a catalyst for our thoughts about it. In the end, I hope that we will all get more of our discussion needs met.

We of course still plan to visit GD when we have GV issues we'd like to discuss. We are not leaving in a huff or anything.

We're just trying to be considerate and get our non GV needs met outside of GD.

Blessed Be--

Tapati

I absolutely agree with this and I think the main person responsible for the unique atmosphere of the board is Jagat with his culture, patience, kind heart and encouragement for everyone. His presence is beginning to be sorely missed here. A forum always reflects the personality of the moderator(s), and at the moment GD is undergoing some awkward transformation because of the vaccuum created by Jagat's absence.

I am trying to imagine how would he describe the present commotion here. Women on the verge of nervous breakdown? Manjari wars? No. He will say something that no one will find disturbing.

I don't mind if the relevancy of IGM related posts is pointed out in a polite and detached way, but I found it provoking when Gaurasundara started reprimanding others for making IGM posts with the typical ISKCON-ish what-kind-of-prajalpa-is-this attitude. So far I have only seen the moderators tell someone to "behave" and never in such an aggressive way.

I agree with what Indranila says. It seems as though when Jagat went off the air for a while, somehow a section of members became critical of the lower regions of the board, where our good Jagatji himself began many a thread.

It indeed seems the time for the cousin site is ripe, and it is only fair to those who who are avowedly Gaudiya (51%). Perhaps the new site should be called Gaudiya Repercussions. (Just kidding! )

I am a lover of harmony, and want to see everyone happy and satisfied in their cyber-sangha, and will personally do whatever I can to help in this regard. I want to publically thank Tapati for being the creative force behind a brave new world of cyber-association, an all-inclusive, and ideally flame-less haven for the unfettered.

Seeing as I am making the best use of my time off work--I am self-employed though so it hurts eventually--I'll add my thought here.

In my line of work every couple of weeks someone comes along and suggests, "Hey, let's start a different forum/mailing list because this one [the official list for the users of this particular piece of software] doesn't cater to ..." They invariably fail unless there is a very strong sense of common purpose and shared interest amongst those who form the new group. (A women-only "splinter" comes to mind.) I don't mean to be rude or discouraging but do you think you have that commonality? There is a lot of effort and even money involved in maintaining forums--setting them up is simple, thus we see the web littered with good intentions.

This board will obviously never be all things to everyone but it has a certain momentum that is hard to replicate. Maybe it's better to be the tail of a tiger than the head of a cat?

I wasn't aware that my post was aggressive. I actually spent two hours editing it and trying to present it as diplomatically as possible. Please tell me what it was that you object to. Ultimately I was only agreeing with what other members were saying, so I think that it is rathe runfair to blame me for the fuss here.

The sum and substance of this issue is that I fully agree with Rasaraja's point of view and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with him on this. Most people here (including the initiated traditionalists) have had an ISKCON background, so it is natural that a little talk will ensue - especially from Jagat-ji who likes to indulge in interesting sociological analyses and the like - so IGM topics are meant to serve the wider purpose of this board. However, we have seen that almost every time the subject of IGM is broached it degenerates into back-biting and other miseries that really should not take place on this forum, and people who are relatively new here are not aware of these histories. Some people may like to discuss, but I suspect that the general majority tire of these things and that most of us would really like to move on with our lives. So it is probably better if such topics were avoided, no?

I am sad that some people feel that they would be better off in another forum. This is not what I would have liked to have happen.

I noticed the "women discussion" comments and thought of mentioning to Madhava when he gets back if he would agree to opening a 'women-only' sub-forum? Perhaps Malatiji would be the specialised moderator for that, and new female members would have to request the moderators specially to gain access to this sub-forum as no men will be allowed to post or view the topics in there. I'm sure that might please some of our female members?

The obvious disadvantage to this is that female members who have recently joined such as Tapati, Satyabhama, Kamala etc have made FANTASTIC and thoughtful posts which we could all do with as a nice breath of fresh air, and we would be deprived of that if they went to either the sub-forum or their own new forum.

Its just an idea anyway..

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Radhe Radhe!

Just a quick thought before heading to work...

I don;t think anyone should look at an additional forum heaced by Tapati, to be a negative as they aren't stating it will replace their participation at GD. It will simply give them a space to discuss the more eclectic views and thoughts while leaving GD as a place where they share their more specific points and how they relate specifically with the essence behind the creation of GD. Personally I thought it was a very thoughtful and positive move for all involved. Just my two rupees.

Radhe!

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Gaurasundara, I appreciate a lot that you took special care not to come across as aggressive. Can you please be more specific about what you say here:



Can you point out such backbiting in the recent discussions in IGM / Other, some specific posts? Is it because of backbiting in the past that you'd rather not have such discussions for fear that they may become ugly? Or is it that you only feel comfortable with such discussions only if they are initiated and dominated by one of the moderators or the older members?

What is also your point about the relatively new people here? That they haven't seen the dark side of IGM discussions that you have seen and are not aware how fed up you are just with the possibility of one more degeneration in IGM?

I am asking for your own stance on this, please don't speak for others. And please don't write to Madhava about a separate women's forum on the basis of what I said (and esp. without asking me and the others who supported me).

(General quote, this is not to just Gaurasundarji)
I don't think it is a question of feeling better off somewhere else, Tapati can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she feels the same. I have no complaints about this forum.

It would be more of a move to provide freedom of expression for those who may feel limited in the GD context, by dint of the express opinions of some GD members. And that is also in my mind, an act of respect towards the more conservative members of the forum. Whether it is feasible as noted by Braja, is yet to be seen.

It seems to me the latest posts in this thread by Gaurasundar are a bit toned down from those that contributed to formation of the original thread a few days ago.


Honestly, I rarely saw the IGM topics straying from a more sociological perspective, but then maybe that's because that's how I tend to approach the issue, which was why I couldn't figure out the problem some suddenly seemed to have with it.

This is even better than the Sonia Gandhi joke (which I actually didn't get in that nostalgic poetic little post).

All glories to Jagatji, who is just like the ocean of love of God, and is popular both the gentle and the ruffians, the faithful and the doubtful, the traditional and the postmodern. Because he is not envious of anyone. Whatever he does, he is all-pleasing to everyone, and he is blessed by Lord Caitanya. He is very expert at scrutinizingly studying all the revealed scriptures and is fearless before the sastras of the mlecchas in his aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings. Thus he is honored all over the board sections because he is perfectly competent to bestow upon the living entities the greatest boon of the goal of life.

I've only been back to this forum for the last three weeks or so and haven't really read the IGM forum, staying away for obvious reasons. I have all along been speaking about the history of discussing IGM topics and how they have been a source of bickering in most cases. It would be difficult to track these down since they all occurred before the creation of the IGM sub-forum and are thus sprinkled all over the place.

If you like, I can attempt to track down a few pertinent ones for you. Right now, I just spotted this thread which seems a perfect case in point. Now that I look back at it, I remember that this fight was occurring right in the middle of my postings of Krsna-bhAvanamRtam and this is obvious from mine and other's posts. It felt so weird to be posting nectar in the middle of a fight. Jagat's comment in that thread is interesting. It appears that Madhava deleted out much of the fighting and he has actually done that with several other threads which is why it might be hard to point out specific instances of fighting since they might have been deleted. Here's another thread which was apparently ressurected while I was away. Fairly recent.


Dear Indranila-ji, I am only working on the principle that if certain topics have a good chance of degenerating into ugliness, it would be better not to discuss them at all. Surely that is a logical proposal?


No, not really. To be perfectly honest I am uncomfortable even if the moderators or older members start an IGM topic. I would personally prefer it if we did not discuss IGM topics at all, but that's just my feelings. So it is not like I have something against the IGM-ish people in here. And if I have ever given that impression, I do apologise.


I have no problems with 'newish' people in here and I try to do my best to make them feel welcome. Dear Indranila, its not really a question of one more degeneration in IGM [sub-forum?], since topics of that nature mostly tend to degenerate anyway. My concern is the effect on the rest of GD as a whole. It tends to send out bad vibes and creates a general distasteful atmosphere. Some of the topics of the last few days have sent me to bed and waking me up in a severely depressed mood.
In fact, I left this forum because that used to happen with IGM topics in the past. While I was away I have been suffering from a few spiritual crises even to the point of losing my precious faith in God. This was beginning to scare me out of my wits, and I returned here in a last-ditch effort to save some of my faith by putting myself at the mercy of vaiSNava-saGga. I have written details about this to some of my close friends here in PM. I initially decided to restrict myself to posting only within the 'Pearls' forum just like Revati-ji used to do, but I am afraid that my natural curiosity spilled over into what was going on in other forums as I read and participate in them before, and I was glad to hear/read the threads that some of my dear friends had gotten their initiation.
So I came back here in the (naive?) hope that I might be able to salvage something of my faith in the company of vaiSNavas and kRSNa-katha, even though I asked some tough questions. Even though I tried my best not to come off as aggressive and I am trying hard now, it may be some frustration that might have been exhibited in some of my posts. It seemed to me that the situation(s) that were around at the time of my departure were still around now and the problems had not been resolved. Therefore, when the subject came up it was only natural that I contributed to it and explaining my perspective on the matter - that this is a tiny corner of the Internet that is dedicated to real katha as well as the traditional arena of GauDIya VaiSNavism and this is why I think this forum has grown to be so successful and it would be good to preserve the sanctity of it. Why indulge in topics that have the potential to ruin the sweet mood and which can potentially cause huge arguments? It is a just a simple thing, please try not to complicate it. I hope you can re-read my previous posts in the light of what I have written here to understand my point of view, but if I have unwittingly made anyone feel insecure and unwelcome, then I most humbly apologise for that as that was not my intention at all.


Well I hope I have made my stance clearer for you, though feel free to ask further if you wish. As for the women's forum it was actually based on something that Braja-ji said, but anyway it was just an idea..

ROTFL!

As succinct a statement of the glue as I can imagine, and a great tongue in cheek reference. I might actually consider it. Most of us bookmark our sites anyway.

As for flames, referred to but not quoted, my experience is that they happen anywhere people gather on the internet. People may think I am nice now, but I have a low tolerance for flaming based on my verbally abusive upbringing and first marriage, and I won’t allow much. I am a firm believer that one can vigorously disagree, but in a respectful manner.

I think that parenting teenagers is a good prerequisite for moderating.



I am hearing over and over in Pms that people are feeling like they’ve been restraining themselves here from things they’d like to talk about or risky things they’d be more likely to say in a freer environment. In fact, we feel like we had been holding back and trying to be respectful, and that we were bothering people anyway. I think those kinds of discussions need to go somewhere else, especially now that we’ve heard that viewpoint. Regardless of what moderators say they are all comfortable with, we don’t want to disturb the sadhana or faith of those who need a strictly GV interpretation and atmosphere.

At the same time, some people over at Ista are also running into the IGM version of hard line purity, and wanting to explore a freer forum also. I think some of them are a good fit too, and they hesitated to come over here because they weren’t Sanskrit-quoting scholars (their words, not mine).

So yes, I think we will be meeting a need that can’t be met in any existing forum that operates with the base assumption that we all still believe in and want to follow GV, or should. So far that is every Vaishnava forum in existence.

I also want to make a little space for those who want to follow a non-traditional improvised form of Vaishnavism that isn’t rule bound (or guru-shastra-sadhu bound). That is one of the many responses to leaving traditional Vaishnavism.

As I’ve said, if we are intrigued by a GV based discussion at GD we are likely to pop our heads in and comment respectfully. We hope that people will at least feel free to visit some of our topics, and avoid the ones that challenge or contradict your faith.

I think Gaurasundara’s personal story highlights the reason we should have a separate space as well, and I am happy to learn that he did not mean to be insulting with his observations about the IGM topics. I think we really did react by feeling like we were all somehow unspiritual if we posted there. As I said before, being judged around “consciousness” is a sore spot for any former ISKCON member.

I have a call out to my technical friend to help me evaluate forum packages. I can afford the ones I have looked at; I am more nervous about the admin end but I will get over it I’m sure.

So we are excited and we hope you will all find that this helps solve at least one of your problems, although IGM mentions will always come up wherever Western Vaishnavas gather for some years to come.

edited out story based on corrected information from source.

Do you think so?

I think that was rather a general Gaudiya thing to warn young males about the danger of associating with women.

BTW, I suggest an acronym for the name (I confess - I'm also in the "separatist forum" planning I hope this doesn't scare anyone away.) - BWIM, which reads as Bhaktas Without InterMediaries. It is short; it is defining (nobody will think that we belongs to one of already established groups); and it conveys well our common devotional background.

And we are not forced with this name to choose between Radha and Krishna (and leave Radha out like such expressions as "Krishna Consciousness" tend to do. )

I think considering the source, and what I've said on some of the threads over there, I am being given the label "sassy." It is not the first remark of that type I have seen over there.

I want to avoid any name that seems to assume that we welcome only people who still consider themselves Bhaktas. I'd like our Bhakta project to be a subset of the larger forum, just like any other option that former ISKCON devotees have chosen. That way no one should feel excluded for their choice.

If it was only for our Bhakta Sampradaya project, that would be a great name. Maybe we can make it the forum category for that project?

I need to brainstorm when I've had more sleep. I got up early to get another iron transfusion today and I am beat.

I am brainstorming words that have the general feel, with the goal that any former devotee from any current walk of life or range of subsequent choices be made to feel welcomed by the title. That said, here are some terms that appealed to me, whether they can be made into the right combination or url remains to be seen. (I was too excited to wait for more coherence.)

Positive words about our being reunited or our survival/recovery from the negative parts of the experience, to be combined if shown singly:

renewal
unity
unification
harmony
synergy
accord
alliance
reclaiming
rediscovery
rejoice
heal(ed)(ing)
solidarity
unison
consensus
together
celebrated
rekindled connections
rapport
confederation
exdevoteestogether
blooped-devotees
exdevoteesrising
blooped-devotees-together
hks-in-recovery
devotees-anonymous
formerbhaktasunited
nondevotees.com
hkrefugees
hkmetamorphosis
hkgenesis
devotees-who-left
formerhks
gaudiyarepercussions still in the running
exdevoteesintouch
nongaudiyastogether ...aligned....
exkrishnasunited or exkrishnastogether or exkrishnasreconnect or alliance.

I think Vaishnavas is getting to be too long a word to use effectively, a problem with many words we could use. I am assuming we can't use iskcon in the url at all. I wanted to indicate that rather than "exdevotees" simply because it is not solely for people who completely leave the concept of devotion to Krishna, but rather the ISKCON temples and/or the traditional fundamentalist practice of Vaishnavism. That's kind of complex for a url and of course needs to be fleshed out in the mission statement. But I want a url that won't cause skittish ex devotees who've been out of touch for awhile to feel like we are preaching to them or dragging them back in to the "cult," so when I advertise in various places they will be curious. I was inspired in part by a new Ista member who stated that she had been trying to find an ex devotee site, having moved on to Orthodox Christianity. Yet she still holds several Vaishnava concepts in high regard and as part of her conceptions of God. That was what first put the idea in my head, then we all felt we wanted a space. I want to create something that will draw such people to join us, as well as accomodate people here. I think it is possible. Whether I can reflect all that with one url is another story.

I don't think it is too broad a mandate, the core being our starting place as a Vaishnava experience or interest.

It may be that I register more than one name and use a redirect to the forum...we could use something like rekindled connections or gaudiya repercussions and advertise with exdevoteestogether, for example.

Or I could not reference HK at all and keep it simple, and make my ads do the work of drawing them in.

I thought about referencing the inter-faith discussion goal, but then there are a lot of such urls and places on the net, and the unique thing about this one is that the core thread is the common Vaishnava experience, so that is a jumping off place in our spiritual quest and a core vocabulary we don't have to laboriously explain when we're throwing out terms. Since even those of us who left the philosophy have carried some concepts and terms with us, it is easier to talk to each other than a group of inter-faith strangers.

I think the rest of it--the mundane and fun parts--don't need to show in the url.

Thoughts? Ideas? Questions?

G'night!

Now some ideo-linguistical nitpicking... Sorry for that, but it is (also) part of my nature. Once I created an own language for myself for philosophical use (well, this was when I was already on the verge of "blooping", and I didn't want another devotees to understand the unbonafide thoughts I wrote down in the process)...

We don't want to scare away those who don't consider themselves devotees - this is true, but I think we shouldn't scare away those who (still) do consider themselves so; for such persons, thoughts like "I'm not/I will not be a devotee", "I'm blooped/will bloop", "I'm/will be an ex-devotee" etc. can be really shocking, because of the negative connotations agglutinated to these expressions. It was dreadful for me, when I realized that i'm in the process of blooping, and would heve never see a site with such expressions - I wanted to be a devotee/bhakta, and not a "blooped k@rmi". Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

I suggested the word "bhakta" because from all possible word for our common past, that's the most "neutral", either in institutional or ista-devata issues (whomever it may concern). That word is used universally, in all orgs and outside of those too. It also doesn't force those who still religious to choose in your mind between Krishna and Radha - something which is not true to the words "Krishna conscious" (of which Radha was left out for obvious length reasons, but it still bugs me...) "vaisnava", "Hare Krishna" (Yes, I know, that Hare can mean Radha - although harer nAma harer nAma would imply a masculine singular genitive), which implicitly state that Radha is somehow not so important...

Besides that, Vaishnavism is too broad a term: it includes not only Ananta dasa Babaji, the ISKCON, the Gaudiya Maths and the ritviks all together, but even the four Indian ("bona fide") sampradayas with all their concurring ideas; not to speak about some theories on Krishna's and Vishnu's relations. (And HKs - hks for many people mean HariKesa Swami... actually, I thought first about him, when I saw "hks-in-recovery". )

So, if we consider these ideological arguments, we should make it known that we have a shared Gaudiya past (and maybe, for certain people, even present), without using the words "bhakta", "vaishnava", "hk(s)" either in positive and negative ways. Nice challenge.

Multiple urls - this idea seems good.

Gaurasundara wrote:



And:



Thank you, this is what I wanted to know. I can understand that you have spiritual problems and respect your efforts to save your faith, even though you certainly didn't give this impression with your posts in Great Leaping Faith or God and the Limbic System (which you yourself started).

I don't want to sound mean, but why can't you take your own advice (to the junior members) and go read the Archives if this is the case instead of demanding that certain topics be stopped. I am saying this because I defnitely see a double standard here. If IGM and other prajalpa topics spoil the atmosphere, then the senior members and the moderators should also refrain from talking about them. If they can, then everybody else should be able to do so as well.

It may be. It would not be a first remark to me being overly attached to women either - not on Istagosthi, but otherwise I had it all the time (even in context of matas 30-40 years older than me ). And considering some sastrical instructions about remaining as brahmacari, I thought that is just the same now, a general, or maybe spefifically IGM attitude, now from him.




It may also be.



Good luck then with the doctors.

maybe we put too much emphasis on what divides us Vaishnavas as a group? not looking to our longstanding Vedic tradition of tolerance and respect for inspiration?

to my neophyte mind, the bickering that goes on between different Vaishnava camps seems out of character - just another influence of Kali. I don't get excited by the minutia of our siddhanta that is supposedly dividing us. maybe I'm just not advanced enough to see the gravity of these differences - I recognize them, but they just seem to be matters of individual taste, like preferences in drinking fruit juice...

however, when it comes to associating with non-Vaishnavas, I have no real desire for it at all. of course, it does not bother me that they come to Vaishnava sites like this one - after all, this is a symptom of higher taste. When they ask me questions - I try to answer, but I feel no separate desire to "convert" them. maybe it's "battle fatigue"...

And what about those who consider themselves devotees of Radha and Krishna, and don't consider themselves Vaishnavas in the same time?

I place them squarely in the "confused by love" category (of Vaishnavas) but that is just me

Oh, thank you.

Why, you womanizer you! I've been warned!

Yes, as I was coming up with some names meant to pull in those who gave up KC, I realized that those of you who'd like to transform it would be turned off by those names. Maybe then, something neutral (in regard to one's final response to leaving) like rekindled connections or gaudiya repercussions (which doesn't say what those repercussions were) would be better.

Alas, no url can be all things to all people. We can elaborate in our advertising and on the site itself.

devotees-anonymous and hkmetamorphosis have a certain ring.

gaudiyarepercussions... that's gotta be the winner!

I would caution against nondevotees.com because then I would feel like I am not invited.

(kidding kidding ) But I do like the names are less specific, thus inviting a wider range of participants.

As far as descriptive urls go, I find the word "krishnas" useful to have there, because it refers specifically to membership in ISKCON -- which is what the core membership group has in common. One can conceivably be not a "Krishna" anymore, yet still a devotee. Also, it would be a good search word for potential members looking for forums.

So I have been thinking of

exkrishnas
afterhk
after-krishnas etc.

But if a positive word could be found (something in the mood of Tapati's "reneval" etc.), that would be better. Not so cool to create an identity that is semantically stuck in the past AND negated.

The trouble with many of these words is that they are so mushy and over-exploited.

Will keep thinking.

That's still my favorite, because it could fit anyone's current position and is a little in-joke.



Or you could be such a humble devotee that you don't feel like you can claim the title devotee.

I was self-conscious as I came up with those, while thinking of people who were out there not even in touch with devotees at all, that it might not completely fit others of us who might visit. I think a value neutral url is the way to go. I was brainstorming, and decided to just grab whatever came into my head at the time and put it out there for comment.

I definitely want you to feel comfortable joining in; maybe we can work on more spells.



Me too. Maybe I'll make one of those words a title of my ads or something.

Thanks for the feedback. I want to be as inclusive as possible.

I figure if my pagan forum can make it so that Christians who became pagans can talk to Christians who looked into paganism and remained Christians, then we can manage to achieve civil and respectful discourse among people who are or have been devotees. Obviously it takes careful moderation and a clear statement of purpose (which I am writing in the back of my head) and well thought out guidelines.

One of the phrases turning around in my head for that is something about not "preaching" any particular choice about Vaishnavism to others on the forum, whether you think someone is misguided for still practicing it, remaining in the temple, or taking up another faith. The best way to advertise the benefits of your choice is to behave in such a way as to be a credit to that choice.

Or words to that effect--a work in progress, to be sure.

Hmmm, search words will come up also by what we say on the home page, aside from our url, so we can try to think of what search words people might use and include them in our spiel.

I also want to have a little area for Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgendered current or former devotees. I am sure I'm not the only one who just left, and at the same time there are others who are trying to make it work within the movement. They have some mailing lists and chats, but I want them to feel welcomed when visiting us, if they choose to. Having a section signals that loud and clear, rather than just saying that somewhere in all the verbiage.

I want all of the people who have been wounded for simply being themselves to feel like they have a safe refuge. Actually, refuge was one of the terms I kicked around last night but couldn't easily combine it with something.

You have some great points, Indranila. It also ties in to what some have said about how the active topics link brings up whatever is active that day, and if there is a lot of activity in the IGM or other "lower board" topics, it is distracting. However, one always has the choice to decide, "Oh, an IGM topic. I don't want to see that...here's a topic about japa I can check out instead." In other words, each person is responsible for what they choose to look at. Moderators also are responsible to practice what they preach. It also looks to me like one of those issues of dissonance between real and ideal culture, anthropologically speaking. What people say they value most culturally is not always how they act day to day.

It is often true that the faults that disturb us most in others are the ones we struggle with ourselves.

I hope that a new forum will give even the moderators an outlet to get away from bringing some of those controversial topics here, and it can turn into the sweetly focused forum they are saying they want.

In that regard, I hope no one minds if we continue to plan it in this space, in the interest of eventually getting out of their hair. Trying to do it all in PMs was getting cumbersome.

I do that all the time, Indranila-ji. I try to practice what I "preach". I find so much joy and knowledge in the archives that is why I humbly try to point others in the same direction.


I agree with you on that, and have been thinking that for a long time actually. In fact, others agree too.

-- (Further Edit)

Musing this issue over the past few days, I discovered a point. IGM-speak is not really a question of prajalpa, as some germane points can be brought up by using an IGM example. One of the most dear reasons in my heart to avoid IGM-talk is primarily my concern about the topic degenerating into arguments that more or less take the form of IGM-criticism. It may be that people assume that such arguments are bad for this forum; I would say that I am also concerned about the level of criticism at IGM. Regardless of whether the points that are brought up are germane, true, or not, it hurts my heart to hear criticism of an organisation, sincere devotees, their gurus, books, practices and so on. It would be hard for me to criticise IGM or hear criticism since I still attend their temples, enjoy their association and so on, and so do other 'traditionalists' here. So, my concern about topic degeneration works both ways; people end up criticising various elements/people of IGM and I do not like that either. I believe that the principle of vaiSNava-aparAdha is always at work everywhere, no matter how subtle.

You are correct, sometimes IGM topics degenerate in that way. They need to be carefully moderated in my opinion. I am sure I will run into that problem too.

I do want to clarify that I did not originally start this topic to be an advocate of all IGM all the time discussion. My reaction is often, oh let it go, YAWN. Once in awhile a topic catches my interest, like the psychology and ISKCON discussion--more regarding the interaction of psych with religion than with ISKCON.

Nor am I creating this new forum so we can talk about ISKCON all the time! Our focus is how we moved on, and what we moved on to, not so much where we came from. Naturally our common origin point will come up in reference, and a section will be available for venting/processing. But it is not the place to analyze how authentic a tradition ISKCON was, or plan for its reform.

May we all make progress in leaving ISKCON's shadows behind and bringing only the good with us as we move forward.

I have enlisted a technical guru and am now just waiting for my paycheck. Once I purchase it I imagine it will take some time and back and forth suggestions on topic areas, wording, intro, etc., but we are so close to having our own forum!

Blessed Be--

Tapati

It looks as if it will be best to host it on my current server, so we can have a clean domain name without some extra word cluttering it up.


Do we want gaudiya-repercussions or gaudiyarepercussions? I think that is the clear favorite so far, unless anyone is horrified by it. I lean towards gaudiya-repercussions just because of the r not being as clean a separation as, say, the d in gaudiyadiscussions. Or at least, it seems that way. Both are available.

Or we still have a few days if someone has a burst of inspiration strike them on the way to Damascus. Suggest away.

Still, gaudiya-repercussions.com has a certain ring to it.

I'm okay with either of the variations.

The unhyphenated varitaion may be easier to come in mind if someone visits first though.

The hyphenated version is easier for the eye to discern and for the tongue to pronounce, in my opinion. After all, these are two complicated words.

I lean toward the hyphen because they are two long words. When I try to type in a long url consisting of one or more words, I find it hard to see the division and type them correctly (being a challenged typist) or catch my error. I think if it is hyphenated you can see the two words more distinctly. I think that Monday I'll go ahead and register the name.

The Sunyata discussion is simply demonstrating to me why we need to move some of what we'd like to talk about elsewhere so as not to disturb anyone. The last thing I ever want to do is interfere with or damage another's faith.

Gaurasundara:

I sympathize with your not wanting to be subjected to criticism. However, there are some legitimate claims that you need to consider nonetheless. To turn a blind eye to injustice while rationalizing that approach with a stance of not wanting to hear a critique that is well founded in principles that the acharyas have laid down for us, is in my opinion just compounding the injustice. If you want to see the good in people, that is a noble pursuit. And you should really stick to that path as far as possible. But you need to be discriminating in your assocation. Otherwise you will be in danger of influences that are undesirable. Senior Vaishnavas in braja told me twenty five years ago to avoid the ISKCON temples, and that was very sound advice. The few occasions on which I did go to one of them for darshan over the past twenty five years resulted in some unpleasant experiences. So, I really should have heeded that sound advice 100%. I now fully realize that, and therefore will not repeat those mistakes. Now I was not advised to start mounting an attack against that organization. I was merely told to not have any affiliation with it. So, my policy is to limit my sporadic contacts with IGM people to short emails and phone conversations - and those have been very, very rare and infrequent contacts. I strongly recommend that everyone else do the same.

"bloop"

Haven't heard that word in ages. I forgot all about it actually. Well, if that is supposedly the sound that the jiva makes upon taking birth, then there should be an onomatopoetic term for the jiva when it emerges from IGM to take part in the traditional Gaudiya community. That should be the sound of a sigh of relief. Maybe "huwahh"would be good. I huwahhed a long time ago. It was much better than blooping. If you haven't huwahhed yet, then you are overdue. If you huwahh and then go back to IGM, then you are reblooping, in which case you will need to rehuwahh.

I'd have to describe the sound when I found Wicca as "aaaaahhhhhhhh" then, that sound one makes when one sinks into a warm and welcoming bath or hot tub and experiences the relief and support reminiscient of the womb of the Goddess.

I don't know what sound one makes when one leaves--but judging from childbirth it's pretty loud.