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Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the modern world. Dealing with the varieties of challenges we face as practicing Gaudiyas amidst Western culture.

God and the Limbic System - Neuropsychology of spiritual experience



Gaurasundara - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:04:49 +0530
QUOTE
A man wearing an enormous bejeweled cross dangling on a gold chain sits in my office, telling me about his conversations with God, the "real meaning" of the cosmos and the deeper truth behind all surface appearances. The universe is suffused with spiritual messages, he says, if you just allow yourself to tune in. I glance at his medical chart, nothing that he has suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy since early adolescence, and that is when "God began talking" to him. Do his religious experiences have anything to do with his temporal lobe lobe seizures?

Thus begins the first chapter of V.S Ramachandran's excellent book 'Phantoms In The Brain', a text that explores human nature and the architecture of the mind. While the book mainly deals with Ramachandran's own research into the medical phenomenon of phantom limbs and other neurological curiosities (such as phantom pregnancies and Charles Bonnet Syndrome), an interesting chapter deals with the initiation of religious and spiritual experiences that occur upon electrical stimulation of certain brain areas.

It appears that Ramachandran is something of a pioneer in this particular field, since much of the academic notations out there invariably refer to his work. Since I am presently reading for a BSc. Psychology with a view to specialise in mental health/brain disorders, I was required to select from a list of pre-selected books and to pen a critical review of it. I chose this one for its focus on brain injury; some of the case studies contained in this book are really quite fascinating indeed, and have the potential to explain many quirks of the human condition. Even though the main requirement for the review was a mere thousand words, I could not help feeling that I had much more to say. wink.gif

Nothing piqued my curiosity more than the chapter that was ominously entitled 'God and the Limbic System', a direct statement of the localisation of religion in the brain. True enough Ramachandran proceeds to outline the case study of Dr. Michael Persinger, a Canadian psychologist, who experimented on his own brain by means of a transcranial magnetic stimulator. This is a device that allows one to stimulate various parts of one's own brain; stimulation of the motor cortex may result in involuntary muscle contractions or involuntary shrugging of shoulders, stimulation of the septum may result in constant orgasmic rapture, and so on. The remarkable finding of Persinger is when he "saw God" upon stimulating his left temporal lobe, a horizontal oval area of the brain roughly over your left ear. The temporal lobe is the major containment of the limbic system:

[attachmentid=1934]

Without going into too much detail about brain anatomy, it should be noted that the amygdala is the "gateway" of emotions. Visual signals whatever you see pass through the amygdala ("Is this a friendly mouse or a rat that might bite me?") and hippocampus project to regions controlling endocrine, autonomic and motor activity. A mention of the autonomous nervous system (ANS) should be made, since messages received from the hypothalamus lead it to control vegetative and bodily functions such as the production of tears, sweating, saliva, sweat, blood pressure, heart rate, body temperature, respiration, bladder function, defecation, and so on. Could this be a possible explanation for the asta-sattvika vikaras (biological reactions) that occur upon receipt of a divine vision?

An interesting finding revolves around the fact that electrical stimulation of this brain region is forced, but what about those whose lobes are stimulated via more natural means? Several epileptic patients who suffer seizures in their temporal lobes invariably claim to have had visions and conversations with God, heightened emotions, access to the secrets of the universe and enlightenment, and most remarkable of all - a preoccupaton with religious and moral issues during interictal (seizure-free) periods. It may be the case that such people suffer hallucinations and delusions such as those experienced by schizophrenics (who may claim to have religious experiences too), but if that is the case then why do such hallucinations involve the temporal lobes? More to the point, why do they take this particular form? Why don't hallucinations of pigs and donkeys, for example, ever take place? Findings such as these have led neurologists to research and come close to the conclusion that there is a "God module", a section of neural circuitry in the temporal lobes concerned with religion.

Ramachandran suggests four possibilities as to why this phenomenon occurs and each of them have some merit. [NOTE: The first possibility - that God might actually be talking to such people - would not be well received by scientists!] One of the afore-mentioned possibilities is that it may be an evolutionary mechanism that occurred over a multitude of generations by the guiding hand of natural selection because of its adaptive value. This speaks volumes about issues of leadership, indigenous cultures, and so on. The possibilities of this are endless and can be discussed in further detail later. One study that seemingly backups the evolutionary theory was heavily referred to in a recent TIME article 'Is God In Our Genes?' that suggests the genetic/evolutionary theory to be true. As far as the readers letters go, this study has been hotly disputed. I may be able to report more on this when my TIME subscription is processed.

While we can ruminate over all the possibilities and lead them to their natural conclusions, the main issues that crop up for a thoughtful Gaudiya Vaishnava are as follows:
  1. In the face of all this and increasing evidence, how do we as Gaudiya Vaishnavas view the visionary experiences of our gurus, sadhus and acaryas?
  2. How do we explain such religious feelings and sentiments? Are they real or biological?
  3. What does the evidence speak about the authenticity of such spiritual experiences, whoever they may happen to?
  4. What does this say about the authenticity of our own religious feelings? Were we brought up to be religious or are we genetically hard-wired that way?
Links to read:

BBC- God On The Brain (contains programme summary, FAQ, transcript and links)
Neurotheology: Which came first, God or the Brain? (academic paper)
Seizures and the Sight of God (academic paper)
God and the Temporal Lobes of the Brain (critical review of Ramachandran talk)
Holy visions elude scientists (Daily Telegraph article)
Attachment: Image
Gaurasundara - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:08:17 +0530
As of today, it was announced by the BBC, Reuters and other news sites the Oxford Center for Science of the Mind (OXSCOM) will carry out a study by way of new experiments into human consciousness in the next few months.

Sample quotes:

"Can there be a predisposition for fundamentalism? Do the faithful cope more easily with pain? Are they faster to recover from illness?"

"What we'll be doing is exploring consciousness and particularly how consciousness is shaped and substantiated in the brain, how a belief can trigger or change your consciousness, and how one can affect the other.."

"We know anecdotally that religious believers can tolerate great pain when there is a specific purpose, and I would speculate that this would operate via endorphin release. Religious practices such as prayer and meditation release endorphins and would in theory increase the pain threshold."
Gaurasundara - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:23:57 +0530
Preliminary comments were made in other sub-forums on this topic. I will discuss them here:

QUOTE(Tapati @ Jan 14 2005, 04:11 AM)
Now the researchers seem to make an assumption that the out of body experiences are just perceptions caused by the brain stimuli, without considering that stimulating part of the brain might cause an out of body experience to be initiated. I think we need more open minded experimenters without preconceptions.

But then this is a logical fallacy. While we are not dealing with out-of-body-experiences (OOBEs) per se, the same mechanisms are certainly involved. To the best of my memory, I recall reading about Dr. Raymond Moody's works in the OOBE field, back when I was a teenager, in which he noted that electrical stimulation to the right temporal lobe initiated such experiences. Puzzling.

It is a logical fallacy because it has huge implications for the nature of (spiritual) reality. If religious experiences occur due to electrical stimulation of a brain region, how can we confirm such a vision as being true? One theory that I have is as follows: Reading of sastras about Radha-Krishna, Vraja, bhakti, manjaris, manasi-seva, and so on, form impressions and coagulate together to leave impressions or memories in the hippocampal region of the brain. The hippocampus is a part of the limbic system, so electrical stimulation of a certain nerve in the temporal lobe may cause us to have a vision that may perhaps recall the impressions of Vraja or so that are stored in the hippocampus. If we constantly meditate upon the features and qualities of Radha and Krishna as described in scriptures, what is there to say that this is not all being brought forward upon stimulation of the temporal lobe? Are we really having a vision of Radha-Krsna, or are we simply seeing our own memories as it were?

Something else which occurred to me later is that as far as open-minded researchers go, scientists are trained to be impartial in their investigations and also to be impartial to the results. So it would certainly be helpful if they didn't have an agenda before they set out to do experiments. Consider the Dawkins scenario as reported in the Daily Telegraph article. Religious critics might seize on that as an example of how Dawkins was unreceptive to the transcranial device and no religious experience occurred as such. I admire the way that Persinger 'insured' himself by previously rating Dawkins' temporal lobe capacity, which would explain why he didn't feel anything much despite being stimulated.

All of these experiments are still very much in the preliminary stages and it will take years of experimentation and research before anything conclusive can be presented. Wouldn't it be interesting if a siddha-guru went for a PET or MRI scan, though? wink.gif

[ANECDOTE: A doctor who listened to the heartbeat of Akinchana Krsnadasa Babaji via stethoscope surprisedly stated that he could hear no heartbeat, but only the chanting of Hare Krsna mahamantra.]

QUOTE(Satyabhama @ Jan 14 2005, 02:19 PM)
Uh, sorry to butt in here but I agree and thought of saying so when I read the above.  A dream of Krishna for instance can certainly be the result of randomly-firing neurotransmitters, however that does not have any effect on the spiritual import (or lack thereof) of the dream.  Just my two cents.

This may also be a logical fallacy. If a dream of Krishna is due to the random and chaotic (why so chaotic?) firing of neurotransmitters or so, this would logically lead us to the conclusion that such a dream is a product of our own minds that perhaps make use of the information that is stored about Him in our brains. How seriously can we take the "spiritual import" of such a dream, when it appears to be the result of our own biology?
angrezi - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 08:55:28 +0530
There are several new age and metaphysical spiritualists (e.g. Emmet Fox, Louise Hay), who practice(d) healing based on a concept that whatever health problems, mental or otherwise, that manifest in the body are first existing in a subtle state in the conciousness. In orther words the gross manifestation of disease that appears in the body or through the body in the case of mental illness, is a later manifestation of the subtle negative energy expressed through the body.

It sounds more rational to me that the subtle and etherial transforms into more gross elements of being rather than the other way around. According to Bhagavatam this is also the progression of the creation of the cosmic manifestation as well. That the brain can produce euphoric sensations that resemble spiritual experience is not unlikely in my uneducated opinion (the mind can certainly make its own hell crying.gif ); the body can create its own pain killer and anti-toxins as well (which I admit is not on the same order).

Further, it seems that to accept 'spiritual' feelings as biological would mean we would come to the inevetable conclusion that there is nothing spiritual, which brings us back to the old 'life comes from matter' etc. argument. Plus, lacking a spiritual paradigm (karma, trans-migration of the soul, mukti) we are at a loss to explain nearly every phenomenon in the world, save sensual stimulation. I guess that explains why we should not believe bhava is in the brain, not whether it is or not huh.gif .

This is an intresting topic. These are my first thoughts after reading your post; I will think about it some more and explore those links.

By the way, reading that information reminded me of the time I met 'Jesus' on the street in Washington, DC. He was pretty convincing!
Chanahari - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:31:46 +0530
It can be true reversely too.

One can theorize that "seeing God" and having spiritual experiences change the brain's chemical/physical structure. This is the same with all other experiences. Does adrenaline causes fear, or the fear is that produces adrenaline? Indeed, both can be true.
Dhyana - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:24:22 +0530
Re: adrenaline. There is an old but ingenious experiment about the relationship between chemistry and experience here, illustrating what you are talking about. Have no time to look for links right now but if my memory serves, the experiment was done by Scheff and Scheff. Will get back to you if I find it.

The setup was as follows.

They got a group of test subtects and divided them into two sub-groups. (testing was done one-on-one, nobody met the other test persons.)
Group 1 got an injection of placebo. Group 2 got an injection of adrenaline.

Then group 2 got divided into two sub-groups again. One sub-group was told they have just got an adrenaline injection and that this could cause faster heart-beat, sweating, etc. The other sub-group was told they got a vitamin injection.

After that, each test person was told to go sit in the waiting room. In that waiting room there was another person sitting (hired by the experimenters) who, in some cases, acted in a happy, jolly way, and in other cases acted upset and aggressive.

And finally, all subjects were asked to describe what they experienced.

Here it gets interesting.

People who got placebo got SLIGHTLY influenced in their mood by that other person in the waiting room. Those who met a jolly person reported feeling slightly jolly, etc.

People who got adrenaline and believed they got vitamins got STRONGLY influenced by the other person they met. Those who met a jolly person reported feeling very happy. Those who met an angry guy reported feeling very angry or fearful. But they did not think it had much to do with that other person's mood. They said they just felt as they did, independently of their companion.

People who got adrenaline and were told they would experience a bodily reaction were NOT AT ALL influenced by the presence of the other person. They reported the bodily symptoms. They did not report feeling any emotion at all.

Conclusion:

Our conscious experience (of fear, happiness, otherworldly presence etc.) is not produced by biology alone, and not either by our interpretation alone. It is an interaction of the two. With the biological arousal, we look to our previous experience or to the situational cues to help us understand what it is we are feeling (happiness? anger? fear?). In other words, we believe our emotion has caused the physical symptoms, although in reality the bodily symptoms were first. Once we have settled for an interpretation, it feeds back to our biological state and molds it to match what we believe we are feeling.

But this loop works only as long as we are unaware of the role biology plays. What our mind strives for, in other words, is INTERPRETATION. Those people who got a good explanation from the experimenter for why their heart was beating faster, why they were sweating etc., did not need to induce in themselves any emotion, any mental state that would "make sense" out of those physical symptoms.

In other words, ignorance plays an important role in faith and religious experience. Just like in any other experience.
-ek - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:28:39 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Jan 15 2005, 02:34 AM)
In the face of all this and increasing evidence, how do we as Gaudiya Vaishnavas view the visionary experiences of our gurus, sadhus and acaryas?

The evidence is certainly under scrutiny. Saw a TV report the other day where researchers at Sweden's Uppsala University repeated Persinger's experiment, but were unable to confirm his results. Their paper will soon be published in Neuroscience Letters. Here is an excerpt and link to an article describing the latest state of affairs:

God and the gap, Dec 16th 2004, From The Economist print edition
"The precise interpretation of Dr Persinger's results has, of course, been controversial. But no one has questioned the results themselves. At least, not until now. But Pehr Granqvist, a psychologist at Uppsala University in Sweden, does now question them. In a paper about to be published in Neuroscience Letters, he and his colleagues suggest that Dr Persinger's original methodology was flawed. Repeating the experiment without the alleged flaws, they could find no effect at all."

-ek
-ek - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:43:09 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Jan 15 2005, 02:34 AM)
What does this say about the authenticity of our own religious feelings?


Regarding "our own" etc., it brings up the need to define a self. Who, or what, neurologically speaking, is the self?

Two books that I found particularly interesting while exploring this question, are:

Gerald M. Edelman and Giulio Tononi, "A Universe of Consciousness", how matter becomes imagination. New York 2000.

Joseph LeDoux, "Synaptic Self", how our brains become who we are. New York 2002.

-ek
Dhyana - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:24:59 +0530
(myself)
QUOTE
Have no time to look for links right now but if my memory serves, the experiment was done by Scheff and Scheff. Will get back to you if I find it.


Found it. The experimenters were Stanley Schachter and Jerome E. Singer. Here's a link to the description of their experiment:

adrenaline: http://www.garysturt.free-online.co.uk/schacter.htm

My description of the experimental design contained some inaccuracies but nothing affecting their line of reasoning and conclusions.

And a reflection: Experiments of this type may leave us depressed, thinking that if our mind can so easily be deceived then how trustworthy is it? It is good to remember that the experimental design involved deception; conditions were created that do not occur in reality; it's only natural that our mind would work based on real-life experience.

In the case of the adrenaline experiment, how often do we unknowingly get adrenaline injections? One can safely say that statistically speaking, 100 out of 100 real-life adrenaline surges are caused by our own adrenal glands which got activated by our central nervous system in response to something. So it is only logical for the conscious mind to start looking around trying to identify what that "something" could have been.

This reasoning, though, is harder to apply to spiritual experiences in trancelike states (caused by fasting, dancing, chanting, meditation etc.). It seems that these states cause the nervous system to behave in strange ways, hard to see as functionally related to the so-called real life.
Subal - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 22:00:45 +0530
As above so below. Of course biologically induced visions, etc. are real. Everything we can think of or imagine is real on some level. Of course the physical state of our body and what we put in it affects our consciousness. Of course our consciousness affects our body. It is my conclusion that even if we all just imagine Radha Krishna and Vrindaban because of what we have been taught, read and conditioned ourselves to believe, it is still real and exists on some plane in another dimension esp. because so many persons are imagining the same scenario and desiring to be there. Of course there is also the possibility that Radha and Krishna are imagining us which makes us real.
Jagat - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 22:23:09 +0530
I think that this thread and the one on culturally conditioned perceptions of God make a nice counterpoint, don't they?

Is God a biologically induced phenomenon (without reality), or a culturally conditioned phenomenon (without reality)? Can God be both at once, as long as he is without reality?
babu - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:08:36 +0530
As someone who can talk to God (clinical diagnosis is bi-polar and after a week without sleep, schizophrenia), my psychiatrist (the scientist) told me he isn't so much concerned about whether or not I can talk to God but the public nakedness and other manifest exotic behaviors.

One funny experience was when I was swimming in the Hudson River and the police came along and told me I was under arrest. I asked them what for and they said for swimming in the Hudson River because its polluted. I then asked, "Why don't you arrest the people who polluted it?" At that point they got frustrated and just took me to a mental hospital.

Which leads me to my thesis of that which is Truth and deeply understood by those with temporal lobe disorders and bi-polars is considered crazy by our culture as it flirts with its own extinction.

Dhyana - Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:10:38 +0530
QUOTE
Is God a biologically induced phenomenon (without reality), or a culturally conditioned phenomenon (without reality)? Can God be both at once, as long as he is without reality?

Well... culture is a biologically induced phenomenon. From which follows that God not only can but probably is both at once.

But I think qualifying this as "without reality" is confusing. Firstly, because every phenomenon has reality. It may not be what it appears to be, but it definitely is something. An extreme functionalist might even say, "It works, therefore it is." Or, as in Thomas' theorem: "If people define situations as real, they become real in their consequences." But there's more:

Secondly, it is simple intellectual honesty to admit that by definition, God may exist despite all the brilliant attempts at deconstructing Him we humans may come up with. Therefore, from the statement "God is a biologically induced phenomenon", it does not follow that He is "without (transcendent) reality". He may very well be both.

Dhyana - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 02:16:23 +0530
QUOTE(babu @ Jan 15 2005, 05:38 PM)
One funny experience was when I was swimming in the Hudson River and the police came along and told me I was under arrest.  I asked them what for and they said for swimming in the Hudson River because its polluted.  I then asked, "Why don't you arrest the people who polluted it?"  At that point they got frustrated and just took me to a mental hospital.


Dear babuji,
Please be careful. I know an ISKCON devotee with the same diagnosis who drowned in a lake last year, despite being an excellent swimmer. He went to swim after several days without sleep (and, presumably, without eating, as he had been waiting for a profound spiritual event to happen). He probably got a seizure or a heart arrest. So please. The world may be illusory but it can be very real in its cruelty.

QUOTE
Which leads me to my thesis of that which is Truth and deeply understood by those with temporal lobe disorders and bi-polars is considered crazy by our culture as it flirts with its own extinction.

Ahhh.. so this is why the maths in your sig challenges the laws of arithmetics? wink.gif
Gaurasundara - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 07:33:18 +0530
Thanks to everyone for their responses, especially Ek for linking to that excellent article. I'll be watching out for that publication.

QUOTE(Chanahari @ Jan 15 2005, 10:01 AM)
It can be true reversely too. One can theorize that "seeing God" and having spiritual experiences change the brain's chemical/physical structure.

This is certainly a worthy observation. Ramachandran theorises about this when he explains how repeated electrical bursts inside a patient's brain (the frequent passage of massive volleys of nerve impulses within the limbic system) may permanently "facilitate" certain pathways or even open new channels, much as water from a storm might pour downhill and open new rivulets, furrows and passages along the hillside. This process - referred to as "kindling" - may permanently alter and/or enrich a patient's inner emotional life.

The mention of new channels in the brain made me recall reading similar experiences spoken of by those who claimed to have been able to raise their Kundalini energy such as Pandit Gopi Krishna and B.S. Goel. For those who do not know about Kundalini, it is said to be the spiritual energy force that lies dormant at the base of the spine and repeated attempts at arousal (via regular meditation, Kundalini Yoga, etc.) will lead the sadhaka to enlightenment by activating certain chakras that lie in the spinal cord. When the Kundalini successfully reaches the cerebrum, the sadhaka is said to have achieved enlightenment. Gopi Krishna and Goel were two Kundalini-enlightened fellows who penned their experiences and made specific references to how they felt the Kundalini force hammer new channels in their brains, ostensibly to allow the free flow of the Kundalini once it reached their brains. Gopi Krishna in particular was willing to submit himself to scientific study and scrutiny, but I do not know what became of that.

The whole problem really raises the problem of the reality of spiritual experience. The exciting points of these findings are that scientists can now talk about religious experiences from a scientific viewpoint, now that the location in the brain where such experiences activate certain neurons has been identified. The faithful will pounce on this as "proof" that God changes people's hearts (interictal behaviour), while the critics will pounce on this as "scientific" evidence that God and religion are mere fantasies created by the mind and consequently have no importance whatsoever. This is why a trained scientists should remain impartial while carrying out experiments and also be impartial to the results.

Ramachandran did his research before 1998 or so, and it is only in 2005 that the OXSCOM announce their experiments into the effect of faith on pain processing. biggrin.gif

QUOTE(-ek @ Jan 15 2005, 12:13 PM)
Regarding "our own" etc., it brings up the need to define a self. Who, or what, neurologically speaking, is the self?

This is perhaps the drawback of a de-facto atheistic education. The "you are not the body" idea is a common facet to most religions especially of the Eastern variety. Regarding neurological studies, you will of course know of two conventions used to distinguish between the mind and the body:It should come as no surprise that current thinking revolves around the monistic conception (how ironic for Gaudiyas!) as scientific evidence to prove either way does not exist as far as I know. As for the self, most scientists do not even wish to go there! laugh.gif No wonder Bhaktivedanta Swami referred to educational institutions as slaughterhouses. I will check out those books though, thanks for the references.
Gaurasundara - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 08:58:39 +0530
QUOTE(Jagat @ Jan 15 2005, 05:53 PM)
I think that this thread and the one on culturally conditioned perceptions of God make a nice counterpoint, don't they? Is God a biologically induced phenomenon (without reality), or a culturally conditioned phenomenon (without reality)? Can God be both at once, as long as he is without reality?

From the perspective of evolutionary psychology, God and religion are actually seen as biologically-induced phenomena in some quarters. The possibility that human beings have evolved specialised neural circuitry for the purpose of mediating religious and spiritual experience always exists. After all, the human belief in the supernatural is so widespread that it is very tempting to ask if such beliefs have a biological basis. The next logical question would be: what Darwinian selection pressures could lead to such a mechanism? If such a mechanism does exist, then does it mean that there is a gene or set of genes concerned with spiritual leanings? Have atheists learned to circumvent this gene or do they simply lack it?

The main idea of natural selection is that many human traits and propensities have been specifically chosen to survive and endure because of its adaptive value. A good example of this is the tendency for men to be promiscuous and polygamous whereas women are mostly monogamous. This makes evolutionary sense, since women invest a great deal of time in child-rearing and is therefore more discerning in her choice of sexual partner(s). A man's optimal evolutionary strategy is to disseminate his genes widely due to the reduced amount of investment in each encounter vis-a-vis sexual relations. Such behaviour is unlikely to be cultural as we all know how culture tends to be forbidding and minimising of such propensities than to be encouraging of them. On the other hand care must be taken not to take evolutionary arguments too far, as the universality of a human trait does not necessarily mean that it may be genetic. For example cooking is a trait to be found in all cultures, but it would be foolish to suggest that a specialised "cooking module" exists in the brain.

So is religion (or at least the belief in God and spirituality) like cooking - where culture is the dominating factor - or like polygamy, which appears to have a strong genetic basis? How would an evolutionary psychologist account for the origin of religion, especially with a Darwinian outlook?

One possibility is that the universal human tendency to seek authority figures - ensuring organised priesthood, participation in rituals, chanting and dancing, adherence to moral codes, etc - encourages conformist behaviour and contributes to the stability of one's social group or "kin" as it were, who share the same genes. Genes that encourage the cultivation of such conformist traits would tend to flourish and multiply, whereas people who lacked them would be ostracised or even punished for their "deviant" behaviour. Maybe the easiest way to ensure such stability and conformity would be to believe in a destiny-controlling "higher power". Its no wonder that some temporal lobe epilepsy patients experience a sense of omnipotence and grandeur as if to say, "I am the chosen one to impart information to you lesser beings."

Even by the standards of evolutionary psychology this would be considered a weak argument, but whether or not one believes in "religious conformity" genes it is clear that some parts of the temporal lobe play a more direct tole in the genesis of such experiences than any other part of the brain. There is also a tendency to equate "unusual" or "rare" with abnormal, but this would be another logical fallacy. Genius is a rare but highly valued trait, whereas tooth decay is common and undesirable. Which one of these categories would spiritual experiences fall into? As Ramachandran asks, "why is the revealed truth of such transcendental experiences in any way 'inferior' to the more mundane truths that we scientists dabble in?"

Indeed, the proven fact of the temporal lobe's involvement in religious experiences could very well prove the case for the existence of God as well as against.

As Ramachandran again explains:

QUOTE(Ramachandran)
"Consider the fact that most animals do not have the optical receptors or neural machinery for colour vision. Only a privileged few do, yet would you conclude from this that colour wasn't real? Obviously not, but if not, then why doesn't the same argument apply to God? Perhaps only the 'chosen ones' have the required neural connections. After all, God works in mysterious ways."
Gaurasundara - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 09:46:45 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Jan 15 2005, 03:34 AM)
A mention of the autonomous nervous system (ANS) should be made, since messages received from the hypothalamus lead it to control vegetative and bodily functions such as the production of tears, sweating, saliva, sweat, blood pressure, heart rate, body temperature, respiration, bladder function, defecation, and so on. Could this be a possible explanation for the asta-sattvika vikaras (biological reactions) that occur upon receipt of a divine vision?

As far as brain anatomy is concerned, one explanation as to why people have religious experiences invokes connections between the visual and auditory centres and the amygdala, that limbic system component specialised in recognising the emotional significance of events in the external world. Obviously not every event or person you encounter throughout a typical day would set off alarm bells, as that would be maladaptive and you would go insane. To cope with the world's uncertainties, an individual needs a way of gauging the salience of events before they relay a message to the rest of the limbic system and to the hypothalamus telling them to assist in fighting or fleeing.

Getting back to the kindling that I mentioned earlier, spurious signals stemming from limbic seizure activity might travel these pathways. Such "salience" pathways would become strengthened and thus increasing communication between brain structures. Sensory brain areas that see people and events and hear voices and noises would become more closely linked to emotional centres. The result? Every object and event - not just salient ones - would become imbued with deep significance, so that the patient would see such fantastic things as the universe in a grain of sand, to hold infinity in the palm of his hand, and so on. Ramachandran notes how ironic it is that "this sense of enlightenment, this absolute conviction that Truth is revealed at last, should derive from limbic structures concerned with emotions rather than from the thinking, rational parts of the brain that take so much pride in their ability to discern truth from falsehood." After all, it is just how Bhaktivedanta Swami once defined bhakti as "love and devotion expressed through emotion".

If the above brain information could be a genetic or neural explanation for why siddhas tend to see everyday sights in relation to Krishna (á la Caitanya's travels in the forests), then it it no wonder that uddipana-vibhavas are noted by Rupa Gosvami in BRS as useful tools that help to perceive Krishna everywhere.
-ek - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 13:13:29 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Jan 16 2005, 03:28 AM)
From the perspective of evolutionary psychology, God and religion are actually seen as biologically-induced phenomena in some quarters.

Indeed, a book entirely dedicated to tracing "The tracks of biology in early Religions," is:
Walter Burkert, "Creation of the Sacred," Cambridge 1996.
Burkert concludes his work with a reflection: "The contents and prospects of religion remain thoroughly problematic—and fascinating. Even within a world dominated by self-created technology, humans still will not easily accept that constructs of sense reaching out for the nonobvious are nothing but self-created projections, and that no other signs from the universe around are there to be perceived except for the irregularities resounding from the first big bang."

-ek
Dhyana - Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:26:34 +0530
QUOTE
The next logical question would be: what Darwinian selection pressures could lead to such a mechanism?

The idea with conformity that you spoke of is a good try. I have my own; admittedly it is a personal projection.

Humans have a rare ability to consciously anticipate future events and experience them as if they were occurring now. This is both an advantage and disadvantage. Advantage when we can modify our actions -- plan and prepare -- to avoid the anticipated negative event (f.ex. injury). Disadvantage when we can't. Think of the examination stress, which can descend on us days before the exam and make us almost sick. Not very adaptive. Think of people who cannot perform sexually because they worry they will not be able to.

The ultimate unavoidable negative event is death. Religion is a way to tame the excessive stress caused by anticipating one's death, and as such it is adaptive.

One could think of other mechanisms as well.
Gaurasundara - Mon, 17 Jan 2005 08:24:13 +0530
Yes Dhyanaji, you have hit on something.It is usually the case that people try to seek solace in religion when faced with practical questions regarding their own mortality and so on. Ramachandran also outlines this by asking rhetorical quesitons as follows:
  1. Does my little life have any significance in the grand scheme of things?
  2. If my father's sperm had not fertilised my mother's egg on that fateful night, would I have existed?
  3. What if my father had coughed at that critical moment so that a different sperm fertilised the ovum?

Considering such possibilities may make our minds reel. The paradox is that while we consider our own self-importance with all of our cherished memories, interpersonal relationships, activites and so on, our lives ultimately mean nothing (or very little) in the grand scheme of the universe. Trying to make sense of such dillemnas usually ends up with trying to seek solace in religion.
Gaurasundara - Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:15:03 +0530
While I was penning my 1000-word critical review of Ramachandran's book, I made mention of the obvious gap in his argument - not every religious or spiritual person is an epileptic, yet it is entirely possible that they have visions too. I am not aware of any replication studies done on religious non-epileptics, but I would assume that in most cases their religious feelings are not intense enough to reach that critical point where the brain projects a vision in front of the visual field.

However, the connection with epilepsy is sobering. Over the years I have come across many pieces of anti-Muslim propaganda about the Prophet Muhummad (founder of Islam), where it is often claimed that his "visions" in which chapters of the Qur`an were revealed to him by the Angel Gabriel were actiually intense epileptic fits. In nearly three years of studying the ins and outs of Islam through as many of their scriptural texts, I never found one recorded incidence of Muhummad's raptures taking the form of an epileptic fit. (If anyone knows of any, please let me know with references please) I dismissed all of that as hateful propaganda since the rest of it was pure vitriol, but now I am forced to consider the possible truth of it in light of these scientific findings. this also leads to question the experiences of most religious founders; was Moses an epileptic? Elijah? Ezekiel? Anyone else? It is not as if the Bible of Torah would contain much by way of detailed description!

====

One scientific strategy to investigate a problem is by means of the case study. Studying a single instance of a (neurological?) problem can often give startling insights into that malady.In this way, Ramachandran reports the case study of "Paul" (identity changed of course) and his interactions with the opposite sex:


Paul: I had my first seizure when I was eight years old. I remember seeing a bright light before I fell on the ground and wondering where it came from. Suddenly it was all crystal clear to me, doctor. There was no longer any doubt anymore. [Paul proceeds to outline further details]
Ramachandran: Can you be a little more specific?
Paul: Well, its not easy, doctor. Its like trying to explain the rapture of sex to a child who has not reached puberty. Des that make sense to you?
Ramachandran: What do you think of the rapture of sex?
Paul: Well, to be honest, I'm not interested in it anymore. It doesn't mean much to me. It pales completely beside the divine light that I have seen.

QUOTE(Ramachandran @ 'Phantoms in the Brain')
But later that afternoon, Paul flirted shamelessly with two of my female graduate students and tried to get their home telephone numbers. This paradoxical combination of loss of libido and a preoccupation with sexual rituals is not unusual in patients with temporal lobe epilepsy.

Indeed, it should be noted that not all temporal lob epileptics become religious. There are many parallel connections between the amygdala and the temporal cortex. Depending on which particular ones are involved, some patients may have their personalities skewed in other directions, becoming obsessed with drawing, writing, arguing philosophy, or, rarely, being preoccupied with sex.

A simple experiment to test patients' responsiveness to different stimuli would be a standard Galvanic Skin Response test (GSR, a.k.a. polygraph test). Place the subject(s) in front of a computer screen and showing them a variety of words and images - for example, inanimate objects (sho, vase, table, etc), familiar faces (parents, siblings), unfamiliar faces, sexually arousing words and pictures (erotic pinups), four-letter words involving sex, extreme violence and horror(alligator eating a man alive, a man setting himself afire) and religious words and icons (such as the word "God"). A typical individual such as you and I would register huge GSR responses to the scenes of violence and to the sexually explicit words and pictures, a fairly large response to familiar faces and usually nothing at all to other categories.
How about the patients? The "kindling" hypothesis would predict a uniform high response to all categories on account of ther experience of finding "everything" meaningful and so on. Ramachandran's experiment found that heightened responses were generated in reaction to the religious stimuli, whereas responses to all ther other stimuli were strangely diminished compared to what is seen in other individuals.

Could this be a scientific observation of how general sadhakas experience a reduction of attachment to material things as well as transitory relationships by making advancement in their bhajan, á la Zri Narottama dAs et al?

The result showed that rather than there being a general enhancement of all the neural connections, there was a decrement as well as a selective amplification of response to religious stimuli. Whatever one makes of such amplified responses, the findings eliminate one of the proposed explanations for these experiences - that these people become spiritual simply because everything around them becomes so salient and meaningful. The finding of a reduction in response to the sexual stimuli is consistent with the diminished libido that some of these patients report.

Personally, I find myself diasgreeing with Ramachandran if it all boils down to an "either/or" situation. Reduction of attachments to material things and also a disillusionment with transitory relationships as well as a conscious experience of seeing divinity everywhere are a hallmark of Gaudiya theology and its exegeses. If it all boils down to neural connections, it would be interesting to find out which neural connection is responsible for which angle of theology. Which neural connections are active at the time of performing bhajan, japa, murti-seva and other spiritual activities? And so on.
Indranila - Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:45:33 +0530
This is a very interesting discussion. I am not sure it all boils down to neural connections, but that's certainly one way of looking at it. The body and the brain are the vehicle, so it is to be expected that religious experience registers somewhere in the brain as stimulation of neurons. But even if the exact area is located and Persinger's experiment is conducted successfully, will that be an authentic religious experience? If I activate the brain area for hunger satisfaction, for example, will I recreate the whole experience of having a meal? Will I recreate also the sight of the food, its smell, the settings, the ticking of the clock on the wall, the soft music, the sight of the flowers on the table, the candles, the presence of the other people at the table, the conversation?

Or if I take a pet as a substitute for a child, probably I will activate the same mechanism of affection and emotional fulfillment, but I doubt that I will experience the same deep satisfaction with a cat as when my child tells me that he loves me. Because I know that I brought this child to the world and have worked hard to bring him up and I also know that being a person, he can also challenge me or even reject me.

To me religion is like art. It is not an exact science and is highly subjective. I like both Keats and Sylvia Plath, or Michelangelo and Gustav Klimt because their art appeals to me and enriches me in, albeit in different ways. The questions of exactly how and why and for what reason are useful to me up to a point. Same for the scientific study of religion (or art). I don't think it can answer the questions and solve the problems surrounding religion and the validity of religious experience. One of the most boring and dry subjects I have ever studied was History of Art.

As for whether there is God or not, you can't prove either statement scientifically. But there have been so many people with earth-shattering religious experiences, I think it is pretty fair to consider that there is "something out there" which us beyond us. I can well imagine that atheism can be a healing or more viable option for personal and spiritual growth in certain circumstances. I remember some nice examples by Peck, himself a deeply religious person, in the "Road Less Traveled" of how religion can be both liberating and extremely damaging.

The whole discussion here evolves around the existence and experience of God as a very high, sophisticated human need. I went recently through the Maslow's hierarchy of needs for a course in communications and took note of two of his observations regarding religion. He says that people whose basic needs (safety needs or even physiological needs) are not properly met are often motivated to be very religious because religions comfort us with the promise of a safe secure place after we die and leave the insecurity of this world. This made me think of Prabhupada disciples like Jayananda, Hladini and Kunti who are recognized as saints by ISKCON, who had lived in very harsh and deprived conditions. On the other hand, when the basic needs are met as well as the needs for belonging, love and esteem, one feels even higher needs like the need to know and understand, aesthetic needs, self-actualization (reaching you full potential) and self-transcendence. The higher the need, the longer and more difficult it is to fulfill it. (In this regard, Krishna Kirti's calling the moderators of this site "Gaudiya bourgeois bohemians" is quite to the point even it was not meant as a flattery.)

So it seems to me that reaching self-transcence is going to be not only a long and fascinating journey but also one that is highly individual, that is there are no ready recipes that fit everybody. It is a journey of discovery that may take many detours and take advantage many ideas with various labels, but as long as you feel that you move towards fulfilling your highest and most cherished need, and as Tapati would add as long as you don't harm anyone, I'd say keep going and be bold.

Gaurasundara - Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:38:16 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Jan 16 2005, 05:16 AM)
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Jan 15 2005, 03:34 AM)
A mention of the autonomous nervous system (ANS) should be made, since messages received from the hypothalamus lead it to control vegetative and bodily functions such as the production of tears, sweating, saliva, sweat, blood pressure, heart rate, body temperature, respiration, bladder function, defecation, and so on. Could this be a possible explanation for the asta-sattvika vikaras (biological reactions) that occur upon receipt of a divine vision?

As far as brain anatomy is concerned, one explanation as to why people have religious experiences invokes connections between the visual and auditory centres and the amygdala, that limbic system component specialised in recognising the emotional significance of events in the external world.

Being a member of the British Psychological Society I obtain due receipt of their Research Digest, which is a nifty way of being updated with the very latest cutting-edge news and breakthroughs in the world of psychology. Here is an extract from one of the latests digests which suggests that the olfactory system may figure in the process of experiencing spiritual visions:

QUOTE(BPS Research Digest)
Sensation is not passive. The same stimuli can have a different effect on the brain depending on whether a person expects that stimulation, or is attending to it. This process of 'attentional modulation' is well documented for vision, audition and touch. Now Christina Zelano and colleagues at the University of California, have used functional imaging to observe how attention and expectation modify the effect of sniffing on the smell-related parts of the brain.

Twelve participants sniffed smell-free air. Sometimes they were told the air would contain an odour that they must detect. Other times they were told just to sniff; that there would be no odour. When the participants expected an odour, there was more activity in the small part of the brain that first deals with smell - the primary olfactory cortex - than when they knew there was no smell. The same stimulus (i.e. fresh air) was having a different effect on a participant's brain, depending on their 'state of mind'.

In a second experiment, participants sniffed smelly air and heard a beep. There was more activity in parts of the primary smell cortex when the participants were told beforehand to rate the intensity of the smell, than when they were instructed to rate the beep's intensity. Again, the same incoming sensory stimuli were having a different effect, depending on the participants' attention.

In both experiments, before any sniffing, there was also increased activation in the smell cortex when the participants heard those instructions that led them to expect a smell, or to expect to have to rate a smell. That is, expectations can lead to excitation of the same brain areas activated by smell itself.

References and Links:

Zelano, C., Bensafi, M., Porter, J., Mainland, J., Johnson, B., Bremner, E., Tells, C., Khan, R. & Sobel, N. (2005). Attentional modulation in human primary olfactory cortex. Nature Neuroscience, 8, 114-120.

Journal weblink: http://www.nature.com/neuro

Free supplementary info on methods: http://tinyurl.com/5vras

All about smell: http://tinyurl.com/2ow2j ; http://www.senseofsmell.org/
Dhyana - Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:08:12 +0530
Interesting. Yesterday I read of a a similar experiment. It was in a popular daily, so no refs were given.

Some American researchers decided to find out whether memory has an influence on how we experience taste sensations. They gave a group of test subjects some Pepsi-cola and some Coca-cola to drink, but without telling them what they drank. As they tasted, their brain activity was being monitored with magnetic imaging. (One could certainly imagine that the guys with money to pump into the project would be producers of these beverages!)

The subjects were asked before the experiment which of the two colas they liked and how it tasted to them. Everyone had a favorite and they could describe the taste. But the magnetic imaging showed that when they did not know which cola they were tasting, there was practically no difference at all in the patterns of activity in the brain.

On the other hand, when the subjects got the two colas to drink with proper brand labels on them, their neural response differed significantly, with other areas of the brain being involved -- those associated with memory and emotions.

In other words, the taste of cola resides in the memory, not in the bottle.

It made me think back to when, as a child, I sometimes got a rare fruit, or a foodstuff I never tried before. I mostly didn't like these things. A fig (exotic and expensive as it was) I found so disgusting I secretly stashed it behind the heating stove, where it grew mold. A banana had no taste at all.

Taste is learned.
adiyen - Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:40:23 +0530
This is all very interesting, but I think GSji that you are wrestling first with your own assumptions and you need to get some perspective on those.

For example how do you know Gaudiyaism is not monistic? The writings of the Gosvamis may in fact leave this question open, and their links with other Vedantic traditions are arguably ambiguous and inconclusive. I think it is even rash to assume that most religions or even most 'eastern' ones, believe 'we are not this body'. Modern Protestant theologians certainly reject this 'Platonism' and Catholics are Thomist Aristotelians, whose ideas of the relation between soul and body are very subtle. Dualism is a vulgarisation of complex philosophical ideas. Descartes founded Enlightenment Humanism (and the discipline of Psychology!), not modern Theology.

When you say 'religious experience' you are assuming some sort of private vision, but the majority of religious people in the world experience it as a sense of belonging and the reassurance which comes from that, ie as a culture. Even the majority of recorded Gaudiya 'miracles' are often just uncanny coincidences in everyday events (of a particular culture) - children bringing pots of milk to fasting sadhus etc - these are matters of interpretation and having a particular attitude to the world. Dhyana mentioned the mind's need to interpret, Victor Frankl called it 'Man's search for meaning' ( http://www.geocities.com/~webwinds/frankl/quotes.htm ).

Please put aside the idea that western education is 'atheistic'. This perception has emerged because few people study the discipline of Philosophy, which is still very much concerned with western religious tradition. Since Nietzsche killed the 'Enlightenment' (by showing the self-contradiction in its grand assumptions based on Descartes' crude metaphysics, see 'The Genealogy of Morality' http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/Nietzsche/genealogytofc.htm ) western philosophy has been seeking once again to place metaphysics and The Self in the new context Nietzsche created (ie, Heidegger and Existentialism, based on the very religious writings of Kierkegaard http://www.philosophypages.com/ph/kier.htm ). Theologians are right in there too, with 'Death of God' theology etc. The contemporary academic view may be that we are very much carrying on Thomas Aquinas' legacy, begun over 8 centuries ago (as so well articulated by Umberto Ecco, Dhyanaji! :-).

Psychology is very popular, but I think Philosophy is far more profound. Unfortunately I am very poor at communicating its insights, but I urge you all to study it yourselves.

Since when did Psychology subsume Neuroscience? Isn't there a bit of academic piracy going on there? If Psychology has failed to establish a well-defined field (and hasn't it? :-), they should honestly admit it, instead of poaching from other disciplines. Of course the word 'psychology' has a big buzz, and University administrators are loathe to question the cash-cow (nowadays they'll provide courses in anything people pay money to study!).

best wishes all.
Mina - Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:09:07 +0530
Dhyana:

Taste is not learned anymore than sight or hearing is learned. It is the neural pathways in the brain that interpret the sensory data that you are referring to. Certain associations may affect the processing of the perceptions from the five senses, but the ability to sense with the organs of sense is innate and does not require being taught to sense with them. The first time you taste coriander leaves they may strike you as unpleasantly pungent, but with time you may eventually relish them despite your first impression of their flavor and aroma. If a banana had no flavor at all for you, then I would say that you have some taste buds missing on your tongue, not that you just have not yet learned how to perceive the flavor of the fruit.
Gaurasundara - Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:13:39 +0530
QUOTE(adiyen @ Feb 23 2005, 04:10 AM)
This is all very interesting, but I think GSji that you are wrestling first with your own assumptions and you need to get some perspective on those. For example how do you know Gaudiyaism is not monistic? The writings of the Gosvamis may in fact leave this question open, and their links with other Vedantic traditions are arguably ambiguous and inconclusive. I think it is even rash to assume that most religions or even most 'eastern' ones, believe 'we are not this body'.

I don't believe I was getting at the 'monism' in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I was simply 'repeating what I have heard' [wink.gif] from my lecturer regarding mind-brain combinations. It appears that generally speaking, current psychology favours a monistic view of mind-brain connections and that they are one. In effect, the mind would die at death since the mind and the brain are essentially the same thing. It appears that eastern religions appear to favour the dualistic view (mind and brain being different) on account of such BG verses such as 15.8 etc. I personally find it curious how UpaniSadic thinking differentiates between the mind and intelligence.

QUOTE
Modern Protestant theologians certainly reject this 'Platonism' and Catholics are Thomist Aristotelians, whose ideas of the relation between soul and body are very subtle.

I find it interesting how the ideas of Socrates and Plato are fundamentally different from Aristotle on this point.

QUOTE
When you say 'religious experience' you are assuming some sort of private vision, but the majority of religious people in the world experience it as a sense of belonging and the reassurance which comes from that, ie as a culture. Even the majority of recorded Gaudiya 'miracles' are often just uncanny coincidences in everyday events (of a particular culture) - children bringing pots of milk to fasting sadhus etc - these are matters of interpretation and having a particular attitude to the world.

I'll agree that certain miracles are due to interpretation, as the 'bringing milk' thing is strictly a non-miracle as it were. I was of course referring to the 'private' visions or so. More specifically, I am fascinated by the biological mechanisms in the brain that allow religious concepts to be localised in the limbic system, and how stimulation of this system almost always leads to immediate spiritual experience. It brings up issues regarding authenticity, etc.
As regards culture, I believe that has been briefly discussed also but not too rigorously of course. It is a worthwhile avenue to explore, but not one that immediately fascinates me at this point. I am currently reading Tomasello's Cultural Origins of Human Cognition (2003), so I may come back to this point with further insights.

QUOTE
Theologians are right in there too, with 'Death of God' theology etc. The contemporary academic view may be that we are very much carrying on Thomas Aquinas' legacy, begun over 8 centuries ago (as so well articulated by Umberto Ecco, Dhyanaji! :-).

Could you kindly give some examples of this, as well as 'death of God' theology, and how it relates to mental processes?

QUOTE
Since when did Psychology subsume Neuroscience? Isn't there a bit of academic piracy going on there? If Psychology has failed to establish a well-defined field (and hasn't it? :-), they should honestly admit it, instead of poaching from other disciplines.

Psychology is an extremely broad umbrella-field, in my view, that encompasses other fields that give valuable insights into the workings of the brain and ultimate translation into thought processes and actions. For example, evolutionary psychology studies the effect of evolution and natural selection on the brain and psyche, whereas developmental psychology studies the thought processes of infants and how they develop, and so on. There are lots of areas that ultimately give great insights into the workings of the mind. Since I plan to specialise in mental health, I found the neurobiological modules to be extremely fascinating and intriguing, hence this topic. I guess I am fortunate to work with professors who are exceptionally gifted in the neuroscience field for which I am thankful. blush.gif
Gaurasundara - Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:25:20 +0530
QUOTE(Gaurasundara @ Jan 15 2005, 03:53 AM)
All of these experiments are still very much in the preliminary stages and it will take years of experimentation and research before anything conclusive can be presented. Wouldn't it be interesting if a siddha-guru went for a PET or MRI scan, though?  wink.gif

[ANECDOTE: A doctor who listened to the heartbeat of Akinchana Krsnadasa Babaji via stethoscope surprisedly stated that he could hear no heartbeat, but only the chanting of Hare Krsna mahamantra.]

I wrote the above anecdote without thinking very much about it, but coming back to this story I must say that I cannot fail to be impressed by the biological mechanisms involved here.

How exactly does a constant thought process (manasika japa) that resides in the hypothalamus, limbic system, or so forth, translate into machinations of the cardiac system?

Certainly this is a neurobiological event that will take years to figure out, whereas others will say that bhakti is a matter of the heart..
Gaurasundara - Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:12:19 +0530
I'm very happy to report that television history was made last night. biggrin.gif

The article makes mention of Dr. Michael Persinger's research, as was discussed briefly earlier in this thread.

The event was well attended by many leading psychologists, psychiatrists, neuroscientists, neurotheologists, religious scholarly representatives, and the like. I found the exorcism itself to be very much of an anti-climax (no head-spinning or green vomit, sorry) and there was too much unnecessary waffling coming from the religious scholarly side. I would have preferred to have heared more about the EEG results from the analytic neuroscientists.

Typically, Dr. Jonathan Bird (consultant neuroscientist) suggested that he would need at least 2 weeks to analyse the results fully, but in any case he admitted that the EEG clearly defined the exact "moment" in which the spirit was said to be cast out. The result definitely surprised the onlooking academics since the point of the experiment was to actually see if such a defining moment could even be recorded by EEG, never mind its subsequent analysis.

Of course, the "patient" claimed to be cured..
Gaurasundara - Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:46:10 +0530
The subscription-only TIME magazine article referred to twice in this series of postings has now been preserved at this location. Links to the TIME website given here have now been corrected to reflect this.

Enjoy. smile.gif