Pandas at Radhakunda - what is the etiquette?

Madhava wrote in Vrajajounal.com



I've been to Radhakund about five times and everytime I was pounced on by the local pundits. The last time I just got fed up with them and I refused to cooperate. Does the attention that westerners who stay longer get less? How are they viewed by the Radhakunda community. Is one supposed to meekly comply with their requests or what?

Comments please

One does not have to "meekly comply with their requests..." , Although one can do a puja there, but first make it clear how much rupees you will give them. On the other hand if you are fully initiciated, then go somewhere away from the pandas and do puja yourself actually or via the mind/emotions.

I can only say that back in the 70's/80's - I did not get hasseled. several reasons: living the life as a 'Babaji' (for various reasons I haven't yet taken the initiation) there for many years I was not bothered and one of the Pandas there - a good Brajbasi - was a GuruBhai (Guru-Brother).

I am not sure what to say exactly (I have not been there in many years). But if you are hasseled like you describe then go to a place away from them and do you own thing. if you can speak with any that are hasseling you - communicate that you have done it with them many many times already. Madhava what is the protocal with you and your Guru-brothers/sisters?

Start to:
1.) imitate Pete Townsend from The Who, pretending that you are playing guitar and talk in foreign language (everything but not english)
2.) always dress dirty dhoti when you are going to town, kurta which looks more like old t shirt , and wear long beard
3.) Whenever Panda approaches try to look very busy
4.) Just start to roll in the ground

Satisfaction 100% guaranteed or your money back.....


Without the joke....try to know them better and be kind to everyone, but be honestly kind, not artificially. People from Braj and Radhakunda pick up any moods very quickly...Be honest in your behaviour, and sometimes diplomatic, but always with respect. Once they get to know you better, you will be fine.

One should not get mixed up with pandas (priests) and pundits/pandits (scholars) either.

Sorry, the smilies or any of the modes are not working in my computer today.

One time at Radha-kunda, a rather young panda came to me for puja. He had approached my friend earlier and at firstI thought they were friends as I didn't hear their conversation. But as he approached me, I could see they were not friends. I was about to bathe my japa-mala in the kunda when he came up beside me and said, "yes, yes. bathe your mala. who is your guru? Satsvarupa? Tamal Krishna? Giriraj?" I just politely said no. He then gave me the proposition of doing pujas for "100 rupees, 200 rupees, as you like..." I told him no thanks with a smile. He then followed me around to the kunda and chanted mantras when ever I stopped some place, asked me the name of my parents, guru, etc. I for the most part just ignored him not wanting to make offense in the dhama and especially at Radha-kunda. Had we been in the States, lets say, I probably would have been more firm (one might say harsh) with him. As my friends and I were leaving the area of the kunda, he offered me carnamrta which I took. He then started asking me for payment, "100 rupees, 200 rupees, as you like..." I knew I should have sent him on his way. I then tried to get out of it by telling him I had not asked for his services. Soon he was getting loud and slightly boisterous. To try to put an end to it as it was causing a scene and my friends and I were on a schedule, I gave him 20 rupees. He looked at me incredulously and said "100 ruppes or 200 rupees." I countered back with "you said as I like and 20 rupees is what I like." My friends and I quickly walked away and he started yelling at me. I saw him crumple up the rupees and throw them at me, yelling even more. As I got a little further down the road, I saw him picking up the rupees and putting them in his pocket. Luckily, this was my worst Radha-kunda experience, which isn't too bad I think. Of course, I haven't been back in over 6 year so maybe that says something, too.

We come from a very different culture and a lot of the antagonism comes from the difference in values. In one way or another, this is the way these Pandas have made their living for many generations. For some of them, they are caught in a kind of trap of doing this to keep their lives afloat. They see people from the West as rich potential sources of income. They see us as Hindu pilgrims who should be doing Hindu types of things, but that is not how we have been brought up, either in our own culture or in our adopted one.

Since they don't understand our culture and we don't understand theirs, the situation often escalates.

One thing I would suggest is watching how a rich Hindu responds to such a situation. You have to remember that you may not think you are rich, but for most Indians, you are de facto rich. So you have to change roles a little and start acting with the dignity of a rich person in a country of the poor. This also requires something of a spirit of generosity (within reason of course).

Keep smiling and folding hands.

I would suggest preparing by learning a few select phrases in Hindi. Like the following:

mAf kijiye.

Forgive me. Sorry.

sub rAdhArANIjI kI kRpA hai.

Everything is Radharani's mercy.

(These two should be repeated repeatedly.)

samajhtA nuheen.

I don't understand.

kripA kareng.

Please.

aparAdh nuheen mAniye.

Please don't take offense.

merA tIrth-guru pAndA bun guyA hai.

"I already have made a tirth guru (Panda)." Of course that's a lie, but it might be worth making one just to be able to say it's true. So if you do shell out 20 rupees, make sure you get the guy's name so you can tell everyone else that Kishan Chunda Chobey is your Panda.

pAyse nuheen mere pAs.

I have no money on me. (That's also probably a lie.)

kAphI pAyse nuheen mere pAs.

I don't have enough money on me. (Likely truer.)

main bis rupaye dungA, ek-hI pAysA zyAdA nuheen.

I'll give you 20 rupees, not a paysa more. (This is how the rich Indian would do it. Set the price at the outset. You're in control. He wants 20 rupees more than he wants nothing. Once you've established a price, you've coopted him, protected yourself from future harassment, and possibly made a friend.)

mere gurudevji kA hukum nuheen.

My spiritual master has not given me permission.

hum radharani ji ke nam se sub kuch pAte hain. hum karma-kand nuhee mAnte hain.

We depend on Radha's name for everything. We don't believe in the Karma Kand.

Probably others can think of other good things to say. Maph kijiye!!

Jagat,
Many thanks for this tips....

I should say that in all tirthas, the tradition was that whenever pilgrims came, they would approach a "tirtha guru," a Brahmin who would do some rites for the departed ancestors (like Mahaprabhu did at Gaya).

In the past, these client relationships would last for generations, and often the Pandas themselves kept good records of these clients and would remember their parents and their parents' parents, etc.

The situation would rapidly change if you buy into the system. You get meals at the Panda's house. You get to know a Brajavasi directly. You learn stuff about life in the dham from someone quite different from the Babajis. You make a good impression on the Pandas, creating intercultural good will, etc., etc. If it turns into an adversarial thing, it makes life uncomfortable for everyone.

Of course, you may not have the time for all this, so I am not saying it is what you should do. Just a thought.

Of course, I forgot to mention my guru maharaja chastising me over the incident, stating I had to be more careful and thoughtful with brajabasis. He brought up points similar to what Jagat makes. That's what I deserve for not going with him in the first place.

The situation may have changed with the pandas quite a bit over the last couple of decades, Jagat. Perhaps the thing that annoys me the most is that the ritual many of them employ perform includes cheating. They ask for a donation for Radha-kunda seva, five kg or eleven kg of rice, as you like, for sadhu-seva and so forth, pointing to the babas here and there around. (And then, the same donation for Shyama-kunda, and also a donation for the priest.) In reality, not a single paisa goes to the sadhu-seva in the name of which you are made to make sankalpa. I am frankly quite disgusted by the fact that a brahmin maintains himself with lies.

I suspect that many of them are not "original" Vrajavasis, but rather people who immigrated in in hopes of good income. A lot of people who come to Radha-kunda, calling themselves Vrajavasis who have Radharani-kripa and all, are mere first-generation immigrants who found it lucrative to call themselves Vrajavasis, as they can get away with it, Indian as they are. One guy, who once hassled us 700 rupees worth, spends most of it for his bhang adventures. Some of them are all right, but I have completely lost my respect for many of them. Many of them are brahmins by birth alone, and some not even that.

As far as dhama-gurus go, I have a very fine dhama-guru who has given me manjari-svarupa and Radha-kunda-vasa, and varieties of wondrous services on the banks of Svamini's pond. That is dhama-guru enough.

With most of them, I maintain an externally respective relationship, while staying far away. With one of them, though, most outrageous in his behavior, it seems I was quite forthcoming in my opinions the other day. I haven't seen him since. At my Baba's ashram, many are dismayed with their bad behavior, and the way they treat pilgrims. We are working hard to get people to appreciate the sweetness and beauty of Radha-kunda and Vraja-dhama, and a newcomer who comes over can have his mood totally spoiled by getting hassled by one of these people. We have practical experience of that.

It is not that I don't like brahmins. I do like brahmins very much, and if I ever see a brahmin doing what a brahmin is supposed to do, embodying at least some of those great qualities they are supposed to have, I am happy to give a donation. I do give generous donations at temples where I see fine seva being done, and to sadhus who sincerely practice their bhajana. However, I do not give a paisa to people who assess my worth as an individual in terms of money given, unless I am engaged in a serious business transaction. And with due respect to their rituals, I do not consider the effort most of them put into it to be a form of fair trade.

Anyhow, enough on that. Suffice it to say, when coming to Vraja-dhama, just stay afar from people who are not interested in participating in a favorable way in your quest in search of Srimati's feet-dust.

BTW I renamed the topic to "Pandas..."

You'll run to similar situations at Nanda-gram and Varshana. There, some may follow and hassle you for the better part of an hour. If that happens, just run downhill. They will probably not follow you. Otherwise, you can have the entire parikrama spoiled. Also, Chakaleshvar at Manasi-ganga is one of those places, if you go to take darshan of Sanatan Goswami. Particularly the pujaris of Chakaleshvar Mahadeva are pretty fierce. You'll never have a moment's peace there.

I am somewhat perturbed by the strange mixture of Harvard-Kyoto and pop Roman transcription conventions used here JugutjI .

For example, let's be consistent with the "f". Hindi has this phoneme (unlike Sanskrit) and has amended its Devanagari Script to accomodate words of Persian origin and suchlike. Therefore an adapted HK based transcription of "mAf" as used by you would be preferable to "maph" as used by you also

2. If you're using the HK "A" to indicate the long "a" as "mAf" then the short "a" should be "a" as in "nahIN" and not "nuheen" as you have it. The latter transcription could give rise to foreign speakers pronouncing "nahIN" as "nooheen"!

This wUD Zuli maiik tha paNDas lAf

I was trying to be pronunciation-friendly, without thinking of conventions. mAph kIjiye bhAi.

My comments were pitched for pronunciation friendly conventions. As to potential replies to Pandas the substance of your suggestions are quite good and your cultural insight is admirable. You are more sensitive than I would be in such situation.

In the situation that Ananga describes I would simply say, "Ji nahIN, main toh ek Arya samAji huN." And when they challenged me about why an Arya Samaji was visiting teerthas with devotion I would reply that I was simply a bad Arya Samaji.

Just out of curiosity: Does it make a difference whether one is wearing Indian or Western clothes? In other words, can one avoid this hassle by wearing Western clothes and behaving like a tourist rather than a pilgrim?

That would make it infinitely worse.....

Excellent point Elpis! However appearances can be for and against. Take care .....

White skin means money in sight. The only way to avoid getting hassled is to dress like a bum.

If anyhow you end up doing puja somehow or other against your will, try to make the most out of it, for example by pronouncing the mantras more clearly than the priest, and preferably with some sort of funky meter. Usually hardly anybody can follow them at all beyond mumbling something, so they'll be shaking in their boots somewhat if you do that.

The other day one panda, who I suppose had never seen me before for some odd reason, came up to me as I was doing pranam and taking achman from Radha-kund, and just started pouring water into my hands and reciting mantras. He made quite a sprint to get there just at the right moment. I told him I had no money on me, and that was actually true as I had just come to attend the patha at Brajananda Ghera. He said, "No money any." All righty right, then! Let's chant some mantras. I like to chant mantras.

So we got to the point, "Your guru name?" "Mahant ji." At this point, panda ji gets a bit uncomfortable. And then on to the grand finale. "Some rice seva for Radha-kund, Shyama-kund, five kei ji, eleven kei ji, as you like!" "Well, I'm terribly sorry, but as I said, I have no money on me, I just came to attend the patha here." So he stopped the puja right there and made his way out. It seems that this prema-sarovara cannot be worshiped without money. "Koti koti pranam pandaji, it was a pleasure doing puja with you." So that was an interesting experience.

I assure you I have been hassled also. I am light for an Indian but white am I not.
I wore khadi and I was hassled. The whole of Hind hassles one but it is up front - not like these Western Countries!

I like that. Very funny.

I must say though Madhava, you are being a bit too harsh on the Pandas. It is a shame that the lower castes in India no longer maintain the brahmins as they ought to do, so that they thus have to scurry for a living like this. I am sure they dont enjoy this ratrace themselves either. With our social welfare networks in W-Europe it is easy to give a verdict on someone who must struggle for survival. Furthermore, can it be proven that they are not Brijabasis and/or are not of the Brahmin caste? Let us not forget the first line of (Radhakund-Vasi) Das Gosvami's Manah Siksa: gurau gosthe gosthalayisu su-jane bhu-sura gane "Love and honor the Guru, Vraja, Vrajavasis, saints and brahmins."

(Talasiga)

I do not think that the "lower castes" of India are in any way obliged to maintain the Brahmins.


Some time back, my professor told me that anybody can become a Brahmin: just move to a place where nobody knows you and present oneself as one. It is as easy as that.

What is happening is people are reinforcing negative behavior. If pilgrims start to give money to the pandas who are humble, well-behaved... saintly, then the pandas will change their behavior to get tithings.

Yes 200 rupees for normal behaviour and 400 for humble and saintly!

Is it really 200 rupees? I remember giving around 10 rupees in the late 70's to my GuruBhai Panda.

Good God JD33, you're the one who instigated the uprising with your miserly charity. How can we expect the pandas to be civil when it doesn't pay?

Balance is owing

Plus acrued interest.

Special deal for the dedicated devotee - no crude interest! Just pay outstanding balance. Please take offer before you fall.

One panda managed to hassle us 700 Rs. worth a few years back. Generally it seems to come somewhere in the 200-300 Rs. range. If you give them 10 or 50 rupees, they will scream at you and keep hassling you until you give more. I've heard people having been pushed for much more, all of this tied up as a part of the "puja", reciting various mantras to "confirm" the donation, and people consequently being unable to back out of it in fear of committing offence to Radha-kunda or something.

The trick of it is, however, that in the middle of the worship, you are just told to give "Anna-seva for Radha-kund, Shyama-kund, five kei ji, eleven kei ji, as you like." You then learn that rice-seva costs around 20-25 Rs. per kei ji. Often you'll also get, "And same amount giving for Shyama-kund" -- doubling the "donation". Yes, and "milk-sweet seva, five kei ji as you like?" And milk-sweet seva is only 60 Rs. per kei ji. And then in the end, you should also give "donation for pujari, too". In the end, it all ends up in their pocket regardless of what they say it is for. Is this anything but outright lying, usurping the donations given by pilgrims for Radha-kunda, often labeled as sadhu-seva, babaji-seva, cow-seva?

Advaitadas, as far as the bhu-sura-gana are concerned, I do not subscribe to the idea that a brahmin, no matter how fallen, is to be respected and worshiped as a brahmin proper. People who come forth with pride, arrogance, deceit and greed, and with considerable neglect to their dharmic nitya-kritya, are brahmins in name only as far as I am concerned. I do respect them, from a good distance. However, I have a hard time treating people, who are to a good extent responsible for many newcomers' negative experiences of holy places, as gods on earth.

As for the lower castes maintaining them, perhaps if the brahmins worked on actually being brahmins in behavior too, people would be more inclined to maintain them.

Indeed, this is what the village talks...

We have an interesting question here with regards to being a Vrajavasi. When does one "become" a Vrajavasi? If I have kids who are born in Vraja and who live in Vraja, do they become Vrajavasis? If a Hindustani fellow moves in and has kids in Vraja, do they become Vrajavasis? And if not, then do the kids of their kids become Vrajavasis with all the special spiritual priviledges? And if so, why? There are many people who are not sadhaks, but just people who moved in in search for a better income, and go around talking of themselves as Vrajavasis who have Radharani's kripa automatically, and all that.

Perhaps the one thing that I dislike the most is the degree to which these people are forthcoming about their unique position: "I am a brijbasi brahman, I have Radharani's kripa. You give me some thaka now, brijbasi seva. I am your dham-guru."

Madhava, please don't let the Pandas mar your pilgrimage to the Holy Dham. There are certain Durga mantras that will keep them at bay. Perhaps a holy person in Braj may be able to help you. Best Wishes to you and your wife.

Jamuna MaI ki Jay!

I am not all that much concerned over myself. I get relatively good peace from them these days. My main concern, and subsequent irritation, comes from their hassling people who are new to Vraja, possibly coming over for the first time even. They have a hard enough time adjusting to the new culture and trying to filter out the spiritual essence of the dham even without getting hassled when they try to come for a visit to a holy place, and possibly to even spend a moment in peace enjoying the beauty and atmosphere of the place. That experience is effectively negated by the presence of the pandas. Such experiences may be very disheartening for a person who has come to Vraja in search of Radha and Krishna, and in search of the serenity and beauty of their pastime-places.

Returning to the original question, "What is the etiquette..."

The short of it is, don't get into situations where you need to start asking that question. That's the safest way around. Otherwise, there will always be a possibility of inadvertantly offending someone.

On a related note: the widows who sit by the roads and paths in the vicinity of the Kundas, chanting Radhe! Radhe! and begging donations. I passed them by several times when I came to visit Radha Kunda. They start chanting more eagerly when they see you coming. It is such a heartbreak, some of these women are just skin and bones and look so wretched, a pitiful sight. I gave them donations but always felt inadequate. They sit in groups, you may give something to one or two but what about the rest?

Later I came across several articles written by local human rights activists and the like, about the Vrindaban widows'. If one is to believe them, these widows are dumped at Vrindaban by their family members and then exploited by the local pandas. Now I wonder whether these nasty Radha-kund pandas can be the same ones. Those pandas mentioned were temple pandas I think -- they run ashramas for the widows, where they live under pitiful conditions. They are sent out to beg the entire day, but when they come back, they have to give all the money to the pandas and all they get is a little food.

There were worse things described in the articles, that I won't mention. I anyway have lost the references.

Does any of you know who manages the begging widows at the Kunda?

Ananta Das Pandit's explanation of bhu sura gana:
"After this zrI RaghunAtha instructs his mind to love the brAhmaNas with apUrva rati. By devotion to brAhmaNas one awakens the grace of the Lord, who is called brahmanya deva, the Lord of the brAhmaNas. When there is a statement like: zvapAkam iva nekSete loke vipram avaiSNavam (One should not look at a non-devotee brAhmana, he is just like a dogeater), that is only meant to attract such a non-devotee brAhmaNa to devotion. Such statements are not intended to blaspheme brAhmaNas, for Lord KRSNa Himself gives instructions in vipra-bhakti:

vipraM kRtAgasam api naiva druhyata mAmakAH
ghnantaM bahu zapantaM vA namaskuruta nityazaH

(zrImad BhAgavata 10.64.41)

"O My kinsmen! Do not harm a brAhmana, even if he offends you! Even if He assaults You or abuses you, you must always bow down to him."
zrIla VizvanAtha CakravartIpAda has described five levels of rAgAnugA-sAdhana, namely svAbhISTa bhAvamaya (practise that is full of the desired mood), svAbhISTa bhAva sambandhI (practise that is related to the desired mood), svAbhISTa bhAvAnukUla (practise that is favorable to the desired mood), svAbhISTa bhAvAviruddha (practise that is not unfavorable to the desired mood), and svAbhISTa bhAva viruddha (practise that is unfavorable to the desired mood). Of the five, the practise that is not unfavorable to the desired mood contains items like honouring the cows, the brAhmaNas and the Banyan-trees. These practises can be beneficial to the practise of rAgAnugA bhajana."

With regards to who is a brahmana:



This reference, likely an amalgamation of various statements from the dharma-shastras, makes a worthy point. With regards to the guru's having to be a brahmana, my guru cited the last section of the verse.

That dvijatvam is attained through undergoing the various samskaras is established in a multitude of smritis. (I can post in references if necessary.) Should a person fail to undergo the purificatory samskaras necessary for attaining the status of a dvija, is he still to be considered a brahmana, or a dvija proper?

And certainly, if a person is truly a brahmana and yet assaults or abuses you, that may be taken as a blessing, as in his spiritual prowess he is a powerful person indeed.

Certainly everyone, all living entities, should be respected, but each should be respected in accordance with their respective eligibilities.

Indeed, that's a problem there. Sometimes I feel like donating to them, too, but when there is a line of ten widows there, how can you give to just one? And who has the money to donate substantially to all of them?

Here is an interesting statement I came across the other day. Cited from Siddhanta Saraswati's "Brahmana O Vaishnava". He certainly seems to have done his homework in collecting relevant references.

The qualification of those who take birth in brahmana families but are unable to maintain brahminical qualities and the qualification of their descendants needs to be considered. By immoral activities the qualification and potency based on seminal descent is reduced, and by sinful activities persons become sinners and fall from their positions. The compilers of Dharma-shastras Vishnu (93.7-13) and Manu (4.192, 195-200) have stated as follows:



Of course, as has just been mentioned, we should not take such verses to slander brahmins. Rather, let these be encouragement for all brahmins to diligenty execute their nitya-kritya. However, the point about offering donations to such a brahmin was interesting there.

The text continues:

The Dharma-shastra compiler Vishnu (82.3-29) also states:



The text has literally dozens of such passages from various dharma-shastras. However, since this is a bit of a side-track, I'll not post them in this thread. If there is a need to go over this at further length, we may split a new thread off this one.

Hmm.... Siddhanta Saraswati may have made all his homework and more, but the Bhagavata says nirmatsaranam satam - it is only meant for non envious saints and Mahaprabhu said amanina manadena - expect no honour for oneself but give all honour to others. Unfortunately Siddhanta Saraswati is hardly the role model for this. Secondly, are any of these texts he has unearthed quoted in the Haribhakti Vilasa? Not to my knowledge. Thirdly, the HBV chapter 1 does confirm that the brahmin must be qualified or otherwise one can take a qualified Guru from the lower castes. In my opinion the edict of Das Gosvami about Brajavasi Brahmins and its purport by Ananta das Pandit still stand. Ityalam.

That was only the word bhu-sura. Now for the Radhakunda Pandas also counts the word gosthalayisu, Vrajavasi. Elpis and Madhava, you claim that they are not from Vraja? Which ones aren't? Mathura? Radhacaran? Mohan? Remember, the burden of proof lies with the accuser. (Elpis, have you ever been to Radhakund at all? )

Honoring all, certainly, without expecting honor in return. However, does that include honoring people for what they are not? This is what I am bringing into question. If a brahmin does not have the qualities of a brahmin, we should respect him nevertheless, but not in the capacity of a qualified brahmin.

The dharma-shastras of Manu, Vishnu, Yajnavalkya, Parasara and others aren't something one needs to "unearth", to the best of my knowledge they are quite widely seen as an authority in matters of varnashrama. Commonly referred to as Vishnu-smriti, Manu-smriti and so forth, they are also cited in the writings of the Goswamis. Elpis may want to say more on this.

With regard to Vrajavasis, in a discussion with Babaji Maharaj today he mentioned that Vrajavasis are those who are born in Vraja and who have long ancestral lines here. Any Hindustani-wallah (or Panjabi, Bengali, you name it) who immigrates into Vraja and stays around for a generation or two does not automatically become a Vrajavasi like the "original" Vrajavasis, as we know them. They are certainly Vrindavan-vasis and Radha-kunda-vasis, but not in the sense in which we think of a "Vrajavasi".

If memory serves, there were eleven or so "original" Vrajavasi-families around the Radha-kunda area. The rest are immigrants who came around later on. Certainly they are also recipients of great mercy, as are all who get the chance to visit Vraja-dham, all sadhakas and other pilgrims included.

Otherwise, we should also stay here and just make kids who become Vrajavasis and who then automatically have the mercy of Radharani and so forth, and who can then deliver us to Radha due to their being so dear to her.

The monkeys are real Vrajavasis, Baba said. They never leave Vraja. And they have long ancestral lines here.

What we have here is the classical confrontation of the secular and the sacral mentalities. So many of our problems stem from that--beginning with the guru "problem."

Real honoring of the brahmins means insisting that they behave like brahmins instead of cheating.

There are many things that we, as Westerners brought up in secular democracies for the most part, expect of a civil society--the rule of law to protect us from harassment and intimidation from people claiming to be somehow immune or above the law, a more equitable distribution of wealth, more respect for the environment, etc.

The presence of Westerners in India will only push these things further. No matter how much we honor the spiritual traditions of India, we will ultimately always be a force for its occidentalization and secularization.

I don't think that we should oppose our instincts with regards to what we see as rapacious and uncivil behavior by the so-called brahmins. I think that a few more Hindi phrases are in order.

e sab pAyse kahAM jAenge ? apne jeb meM?

Where will this money go, into your own pocket?

cAul-sabji sab kon khAegA ?

Who will eat all this rice and subji?

maiM apne sab payse guru aur VaishnavoM kI sevA meM lagAtA hUm.

bAqI kuch nahIN rahtA.

dUsroM kI sevA karne kA mauqA nahIN.

I am spending all my money in the service of my guru and the Vaishnavas.

I have nothing left.

I cannot serve anyone else.

Jagat: I think I see a booklet here... 'Phrases for dealing with the hassles of India' How much? 5 kei ji, 15?

**Yahoo... officially my 200th post! One more blue box!**

Not a bad idea.

I could hassle American and European tourists as they got off the plane. Pay for my trip! Or better yet, I could get the Pandas to sell them to pilgrims by Radha Kund, etc. This would be, I think most economists would agree, a step in the right direction.

I agree of course that Vrajavasis are those descending from ancient Vraja families. Is there any evidence that the Pandas operating on the Sangam are not ancient Vrajavasis? About the Vrajavasis:

Radharasa Sudhanidhi verse 265:

SAD YOGINDRA SUDRzYA SANDRA RASADANANDAIKA SAN MRTAYAH
SARVE'PY ADBHUTA SANMAHIMNI MADHURE VRNDAVANE SAGGATAH
YE KRRA API PAPINO NA CA SATAM SAMBHASYA DRzYAz CA YE
SARVAN VASTUTAYA NIRIKSYA PARAMA SVARADHYA BUDDHIR MAMA

When I look at even the cruel and sinful persons that meet in VRndAvana, the abode full of wonderful glorious sweetness, I consider even them to be most worshipable, although they are normally not fit to be seen or touched by saints. They are actually all good-looking like the true kings of mystics and they have sweet rasika and very blissful forms.

THE REAL FORMS OF THE CRUEL SINNERS OF VNDAVANA:

Rasa VarSiNI vyAkhyA by Ananta Das Pandit: As a means of praising all the moving and nonmoving creatures of VRndAvana, zrIpAda here describes the cruel sinners that meet in VRndAvana. There is nothing dull and material in VRndAvana whatsoever, and any devotee who does not have that faith is sure to commit offenses which will cause him to fail on the path of rAgAnugA bhakti. zrIpAda writes in his 'VRndAvana MahimAmRta (17.83-84)':

svAnanda sac cid ghana rUpatA matir yAvan na vRndAvana vAsi jantuSu
tAvat praviSTo'pi na tatra vindate tato'parAdhAt padavIM parAt parAm

"As long as you don't see that all the creatures that live in VRndAvana have blissful trancendental forms, you will not attain the supreme goal, although you may have (physically) entered that abode."

yadaiva sac cid rasa rUpa buddhir vRndAvanastha sthira jaGgameSu
syAn nirvyalIkaM puruSas tadaiva cakAsti rAdhA priya sevi rUpaH

"As soon as a man honestly sees that all the moving and nonmoving creatures that reside in VRndAvana are endowed with delicious transcendental forms, you will attain the form of RAdhA's beloved maidservant." aprAkRta vastu nahe prAkRta gocara (C.C.) "This is a transcendental thing, and it cannot be seen by materialists." The word sat yogIndra refers to a bhakti yogI, who is endowed with God-consciousness. No karmI, jJAnI or aSTAGga-yogI can see all the residents of VRndAvana in such a topmost way, therefore the best of yogIs is described here:

yoginAm api sarveSAM mad gatenAntarAtmanA
zraddhAvAn bhajate yo mAM sa me yuktatamomataH (GItA 6.47)

"A person who worships Me with faith, concentrating on Me, He is the best of yogIs in My opinion." Therefore even those residents of VRndAvana who appear to be cruel sinners from the material point of view, will be seen in the most sweet blissful forms, like the great kings of yogIs, by an offenseless devotee:

parasva steyaika vyasanam api nityaM paravadhU
prasaktaM vizveSAm ahaha bahudhA hiMsakam api
durAcAraM lobhAdy upahatam api bhrAtar aruNaM
divAndhas taM vRndAvana gata janaM nAvagaNayeH

(VRndAvana MahimAmRta 17.47)

"O Brother! Although the residents of VRndAvana may be attached to stealing another man's wife or property, they may commit violence to the whole world in many ways and they may have lost their intelligence out of greed, you should still not disrespect them, taking them to be ordinary sinners. You are blind for the rays of the rising sun like an owl (who cannot appreciate the gorgeous light of the sun), know that for sure!" In this way zrIpAda has praised the VrajavAsIs in many different ways in his 'VRndAvana MahimAmRta (glorification of VRndAvana)'.

With regards the pandas, I stated also that we should respect them as far as possible. At the same time, I believe that as Western Vaishnavas become more self-confident and take positions of authority (as is inevitable), they will take strong positions.

Consider this: Is it not a sign of respect for the Dham to insist that others respect and honor it as well? And are pilgrims also not deserving of respect? If anyone expects to profit from the Dham, they should be expected to play by the rules of good economics--i.e., don't alienate your customers. The rules of marketing apply to Vrindavan as much as they do to the USA.

And the same goes for planting trees, good sewage systems, and many other things. Just because hogs have always used the streets of Vrindavan as a defecating ground does not mean that this is an eternal spiritual principle that must be preserved for all eternity.

I am claiming no such thing. I said that in order to become a Brahmin, one simply has to move to a place where nobody knows you and present oneself as one. This happens, and it is not a recent phenomenon. Whether or not some guys who approach people for money at RAdhAkuNDa are Vraja-vAsins or not, I do not know and pass no judgment on. (But I would not be surprised if many were not.)


I have been to VRndAvana, but not to RAdhAkuNDa. I saw RAdhAkuNDa while driving past, though. (Does that count? )

This would fit the bill for selfless service - to risk the prospect of scripturally defined offense in the service of the dham and its inhabitants.

I am not in Madhava's or Jagat's camp but please consider this Advaitadas!
The privileges that you enjoy, to move and associate with a Guru in the dham - you would not have if the majority mentaility of Brajvaasis held sway. You can thank secularisation for this Advaita.

Please explain yourself further Talasiga, I dont get the point. The Vrajavasis love me. Have you seen my dealings with them?

It was an in principle comment. You may be loved but you are not an indigene of Braj. You will always potentially be the target of rejection. Thus conservatism balances itself.

Braj has spawned many secularists also. And iconoclasts too. If I recall correstly, the Arya Samaaj was founded or first conceived in Braj. I cannot say for sure whether Swami Dayanand was a Brajvaasi without doing some research however.

Braj has changed a lot, socially, in the last 10-odd years. The Brajabasis got used to us now, it just took them a few decades, that's all. No more jeers and cat-calls nowadays.

Dayanand Saraswati, the enlightened thinker and founder of the Arya Samaj, was born at Tankara, a town near Morvi in Saurashtra, in 1824. His original name was Mulshankar Karsanji Trivedi. He was an Audichya Sahasra Brahmin by caste.
On 10 April, 1875, Dayanand established in Bombay the institution named 'Arya Samaj'.
He did spend time in Mathura, from 1860-1863. His guru's name was Swami Vrajanand.

-ek

Does Sripada Prabodhananda glorify inhabitants of modern mundane area which is known as Vrindavan or rather he glorifies spiritual entities of celestial Vrindavan, which appeared with Sri Krishna on Earth some 5 000 years ago? Or maybe both of them?

It seems unlikely that he glorifies the nitya siddhas in Goloka as sinful and cruel. He himself lived not 5000 but just 400 years ago. I take it to be a timeless, permanent statement on the terrestrial Brajabasis.

Hassling Westerners is by no means exclusive to Vrindavan or India, it is common in any Third World country where white tourists come. And the locals invariably develop a special talent to spot the newcomers and to relieve them of some cash. Without getting into who collects money and for what and whether they have the right to do it or not, hassling white people is just part of life in those parts of the world and it is certainly not going to go away. Just consider what you pay for your airplane ticket to get there -- you are a multi-millionaire in the eyes of the locals. They may be a bit naive to think that you can dispense several hundred rupees at will at any given point in time, but is it so hard to understand why they think so.

I agree with Advaitadas that we are guests to the culture and the holy place and should be respectful and take the safest option of not involving ourselves in local politics. In India (and anywhere in the Third World) exploitation, disease and death are much more visible than in the West, but the fact that we are not directly exploiting someone doesn't mean that we are so innocent either and that we don't profit BIG TIME from indirect exploitation. Just consider how many people are dying in Iraq, for example, so that "the golden white-skinned billion" can have its oil. Every child born in the West puts 20 times bigger strain on the environment and the earth's natural resources than a child born in the Third World.

Returning to the pandas, why not try to see it as an opportunity to develop some patience and humility, arranged for us personally by Krishna in His holy land to teach us some lesson. The thing is, pandas or no pandas, begging children or no begging children, sandy roads or asphalt roads, the holy dhama is the holy dhama and Krishna is readily available there if we humbly try to experience Him there. This is the special mercy and potency of the holy dhama.

I think that our inclination to rather have the holy dhama lush and green like some garden of Eden, the locals all sweet and angelic and no dirt or beggars and other disturbing sights pricking our eyes, is rooted in our Western/ Christian conception of heaven. Not that I have anytying against beautiful nature and ecology and social justice, but I think that these activities still belong to the mundane plane and if one wants to pursue them in India (or anywhere in the Third World), one should not do it with the self-righteousness of a conqueror but be very respectful and always remember that there is more to a situation than meets the eye.

Save the Pandas.

A thread called Secular Vaishnavas, Sacral Mentalities has been split off from this thread, for the most part containing Advaita's challenge of Jagat's statement on secularity and the rest. Let us preserve this thread for the original topic of discussion.

I recall hearing such from Acyutananda, who seems to have done a good deal of homework on the various controversies, conflicts and so forth in the area. That aside, of course I have not confronted each and every one of them, demanding that they present a full geneological chart of their gotra traced back to Brahmaji through an old Vrajavasi-ancestor. Considering that "immigrants" and moreover "immigrant-brahmanas" are very common in general, and considering that the village talks along those lines, good chances are that some, if not many, of them are not all they claim to be.

Thank you ek for this post. Yes, in the meantime I talked to my Dad and he told me that Swami Dayanand was born in Gujerat. The foundations of his later Arya Samaaj mission were laid in Mathura whilst under Virijananda Guru's tutelage. I am sure the superstitions and associated practices were extant in those days also and they, no doubt, gave impetus to the Swami to form such an organisation.

I do not feel it is necessary to kowtow to Hindu rituals and superstitions and cultural practices to tread the Bhakti path. You do not even need to visit the geographical Braj to see Raadha and Krishna.

Of course I would not be deemed Gaudiya so you may take my comments lightly. And of course I am not representing the Arya Samaaj view for they do not support yatra per se.

I, like Madhava, do not like to see aspiring devotees hassled by lower caste Brahmins in Braj. As a matter of fact, I do not like to see anyone hassled by anyone. I make exceptions for a little bit of teasing.

I think you all are taking the Pandas too seriously. Tease them and joke with them. Make fun of them to their face. Make a fool of yourself if you have to.
If you cannot do this, don't go to Braj. There is no need.

How true. I wish this realization took birth in many people's minds.

Ask them for money to do puja on their behalf. Tell them they need it with all the offenses they've committed.

Once Ek and I were at Radha-kunda and he got one very business-minded bully panda on his case. That was the first time for me; being with my husband, I wan't being harassed myself and enjoyed the luxury of just watching the show. After a couple of refusals the panda pretended to give up; walking away, he asked: "What is your name?"

Ek (making a face that looked much more stupid than what's normal for him): "Dunno..."

"Your name!"

Ek (helplessly): "I forgot..."

The panda became quite upset and he made away in a huff, mumbling invectives.
Later I heard that if you make a mistake of telling a panda your name, he may commence offering puja in your name to Radha-kunda on the spot.


NOW you are teasing us, dear Talasiga. Do you mean one won't get anything out of a visit to Braja if one has no sense of humor, an appreciation of the lightness of being?

Now there is the sign of someone brought up under the last days of Communism, during its most absurd phase.

But you are quite right. We do tend to take things a little too seriously sometimes. Of course, for the Pandas, it's food on the table (or a Rolex watch knockoff, if they're really doing well). Serious business. By laughing, we remind them it's all Maya.

P.S. That must create for some interesting crosscultural moments in your household, Dhyana. You with your Polish/Catholic/Communist background, and Ek with his Scandinavian Protestant roots. Do you often laugh at him for being too serious?

In 1985 in Mathura, this group of riksha wallahs kept hassling me. Every time I stepped out, "Riksha, riksha!" Like a swarm of flies.

One day I was at a banana stall picking and choosing my bananas for the day. And this riksha wallah comes up behind me, almost bumps me and squeaks, "Riksha? Riksha?" Well I did my best Hindi and told him, "Sorry but I don't eat rikshas". He looked at me quizzically at first and then giggling he rode away.

After that the whole riksha community in Mathura left me alone. The word got around that I was the one who gave that funny reply to so and so and whenever they saw me coming they would giggle and clap with delight and greet me, "Raadhe Shyaam Babaji" (I had long hair). Even the hotelier where I was staying who seemed to be lining me up for some Panda left me alone after that.

That would be crossing the line quite a bit.

Haha, Just roll on the ground like an idiot. Very funny Tamala :) Heck, this works for me here in the states :rolleyes:

I dont know how I would react if anyone came up to me and forced themselves upon me telling me that I HAVE to do this or that., especially at a place of pilgrimage. I`m not fond of being pestered.

How do the other maths and temples deal with this? I would think they would shun this practice if its keeping westerners out, no?

...and here we have a sign of someone with Polish, if not roots, then at least one root! *bows down low to Jagat's roots*

In this vein, the Poles referred to their country as "the jolliest barrack in the communist camp"


Scandinavian? Va? Ek, why don't you disabuse Jagat of his image of you as a serious Scandinav.
You as a Canadian have more in common with Ek than you think, dear Jagat-ji!
Well I do laugh at him often, but *not* for being too serious! And he laughs at me at least as much.

Hi Jagat!

I'm an ardha-jarman-phrench Mensch! Just happen to live in Sweden. My mother is from St. Malo, that's from where Jaques Cartier ventured to discover Canada, I believe. But sure, we are having lots of multilingual fun in our household.

-ek

I second that.

Once at Radhakund a panda came up to me and started doing all sorts of nyasas on me. He didn't really speak to me but just got into his mantra mode. Touched my head, sprinkled water, conferred blessings. After a while, when he thought the spells should stick, he asked for money. I told him I didn't have any. He didn't believe me. So I turned my pockets inside out and showed him. He was still incredulous. I encouraged him to search me for money. He did, but couldn't find any (I really had nothing). He finally left, mumbling curses, and totally disgusted.

But I also have very positive memories. Once I was at Shyamakund in 1996 and went to see Shyamababa, a book vendor and pandit. I bought the ancient Murshidabad Edition of the Bhagavata Purana from him. While I was examining his books, he asked Dhyana to come into his kutir with him and take a photo of his dying mother. He wanted to have a photo of her, as a souvenir. Dhy went in and took this picture:

I should indeed note that the Gaudiya-teachers have rather emphatically encouraged all to visit the geographical Braj as a matter of sadhana. And the grand majority of them have found their residence there, too, filled as the place is with stimuli for remembrance of Vraja-rasa. The geographical Vraja is deeply tied with the aprakata-Vraja in which the lilas constantly unfold. In fact, we know it as the dRzyamAna-prakAza of the original, "real" Vraja. The manifestation we are able to see with our current "equipment".

Of course, I am not saying that you suggested anything contrary to that. Just wishing to clarify the point in case someone misunderstands.

* * * * * * * * * *

Concerning earlier posts, wishing to reconcile the statements stating how we must worship all moving and non-moving living entities of Vraja and so forth, and on the other hand, seeing to the practical necessities of life. I would submit that while internally maintaining an awareness of the spiritual splendor of whatever is perceived in Vraja, externally we adopt regular ways of dealing with each object, person and situation just as we (as a proper Vaishnava, and all that) would deal with them anywhere, in the dham or otherwise.

Say, for example, the monkeys, whom we have learned are real Vrajavasis -- how do we deal with them? We certainly stand in awe of their fortunate position, yet keeping a stick in hand, keeping the rascals afar. If we adopt customary dealings with monkeys and the rest, why would we not extend this to human beings as well, externally treating each in a befitting way in accordance with their respective eligibilities. In other words, worshiping a brahmin proper as such, and respecting the friend of a brahmin as such, without confusing the two, as enjoined in the dharma-shastras.

very well put

Comments of this ilk would dovetail very nicely with with Kamala's "Spiritual Travel" topic
which is premised very much on the pilgrim's ability to "edit".

I commend that topic to you.

wow...that was touching.... thanks for sharing that, Ek. It is a nice conclusion for such a "rocky" thread.

Very interesting topic. After downloading and reading offline my first thread. Humble greetings to you all from Munich.

What I liked most was the concern in people in general, in this case Vrajavasis; some of them direct and unusual in their behaviour. I havent been in India yet, I have no direct experience. Is it not like that they would like us to learn more, how to deal with them, how to approach them, how to understand each other. The photo posted from -ek made a very impact on me (although I do not know, what was the reason for the invitation in general).

As posted by Jagat "the situation escalates by misunderstanding." Just to brake the borders - different people do it different ways. Perhaps the one who is hassling you is your old friend.

I feel this photo -- or the scene it captures -- is special, too.
The situation was that Ek and Gopiparanadhana (ACBSP) were sitting in the courtyard as the book seller brought more and more old venerable volumes out of his kutir. The courtyard was full of Tulasis (and some monkeys), its outer wall overlooking Shyama-kunda almost directly. It was such a picturesque scene I took out my camera. Anyway all concerned talked in Bengali and I understood nothing so I got busy watching. When the book transaction was completed, the vendor asked Ek to ask me to come in.
He saw me shoot pics and probably thought there was something much more worth capturing on the photo than he himself, his books and his courtyard...
It was very dark in that tiny room when I came in and I worried the photo wouldn't work out. I hardly saw anything before I shot.
Still I think this is one of the best photos I ever took.
But that's through no accomplishment of mine.
After we got the photos developed, we gave one to Gopiparanadhana Prabhu, asking him to give it to the vendor next time he would go there.
I do hope he did.

When I was in Vrindavan with Mahanidhi Maharaja, in the beginning of the parikram we came across a huge monkey and he shouted "Hey Hanuman!". As a dutiful disciple of Harikesha who considered it an act of condoning sahajiyaism to even set foot in Vrindavan, I felt uneasy, just as when I saw an Italian devotee roll in the dust when we reached a certain place. But gradually, by listening to Maharaja's talk and imbibing his mood of respect, I understood that one could experience the real nature of Vraja by not letting the mind judge and evaluate, but simply acknowledge a distraction (the veil on the dham) when it appears and try to see Krishna behind it. Then He reveals Himself.

If we can't see in Vrindavan Krishna behind everything happening to us, then where else?

I have no proper diksha, nor have I read extensively the respective shastras, nor do I go to India every year, but the reason I still consider myself a devotee and a worshiper of Radha and Krishna are those memories from Vrindavan. I saw also things I couldn't understand or accept, but it is my conviction that we have to be very humble in the holy dham. And deliberately make a leap of faith, call it suspend belief/ judgment if you like, to let the experience just flow without imposing ourselves on it.

As for the locals harrassing pilgrims, from the posts of all that complain I gather that you have no idea what it means to be harrassed. I have, for example, two little boys, with Vaishnava names mind you, who harrass me every single day for fancy toys and candies and attention and won't take no for an answer and don't even offer to do any puja for me in return! My little 3 year old one is convinced that mama exists entirely for his convenience and enjoyment and he thinks nothing of coming to me at night (he is a light sleeper and wakes up easily) and crawling on me (and he is a heavy chubby one) and then falling asleep exactly on my chest and neck and almost suffocating me. I don't think I have had a week of sound sleep since he was born. And you are upset because of some pandas.... Just wait and we'll talk again. Krishna is the greatest joker.

With regards to being upset, I may not have been clear in this regard (though I thought I was), but the main concern is not over our ability to suspend our disbelief or whatever. The concern is over new people who come in and get a negative experience on their very first steps in Vraja. Such new people have read of the wonders of Vraja-dham in the scriptures, and are expecting to come to a very wonderful and spiritual place, only to find themselves disappointed due to their being harassed for money, alas -- that god of the Western world we think of as the root of evils, as they seek the sanctitude of the divine dham.

Jokingly seeing a monkey as Hanuman is certainly neat, but I cordially invite you to come and live in Vraja for several months, realizing that somehow practical life must also go on amidst all of our wonderful visions. We may certainly acknowledge the awkwardities we face as disturbances veiling the dham, but at one point the moment comes when you realize you have to think in practical terms, too. Otherwise, in the cold season you could just go to the summer-forest here at Radha-kund to warm up a bit, sleep over night there. And so forth.

What I'm saying is that this vision, if we indeed intend to apply it, must be a wholesale appliance. Not that the courtesy is only extended to the pandas or so.

This vision, I was speaking with Baba, is the view of a maha-bhagavat, who sees his own mood in all moving and immobile creatures and objects, like the gopikas of Vraja-dham once saw. I have to wonder whether we can just pull the maha-bhagavat-wool over our eyes overnight.

As for "If we can't see in Vrindavan Krishna behind everything happening to us, then where else?" Certainly yes, but if this means you aren't going to do anything about what happens, isn't that awfully fatalistic?

Well you know what happened to Acyutananda..... Be warned......
Generally I believe that anyone who makes too much homework is at risk.

"What you don't know cannot hurt you..."

Sancta simplicitas rules

Nobody likes to get harrassed. Here's an approach which was suggested to me a few years ago which I've used ever since and works very well for me.

I try to respect the culture of Radha Kunda pandas and deal with them in a respectful way. I recognize that they're part of Radha Kunda, and they're not going anywhere.

I have a Panda (Mohan Panda) who I go to. I asked him initially "Will you be my tirtha guru?" Ofcourse he said yes, and based on this we have an affectionate relationship. It doesn't mean much to me in terms spiritual guidance, but it's just a relationship where I respect him as my superior. I offer him my obeisances and respectful words, and he is affectionate to me. When he does puja, I always set a price at the outset (maybe 20 rupees, which is less that 50 cents US). Whenever he asks for rice and cloth and all those things I just keep repeating that 20 rupees is all I can give for everything. Sometimes I'll give him a bigger donation, just to keep thim happy. Like if I'm there for kartika, at the beginning of the month and maybe again at the end I'll give him a bigger donation. I just accept that if you want a peaceful visit to Radha Kunda you have to pay your dues.

And whenever anyone else approaches me I just tell them that Mohan Panda is my tirtha guru and that I only do puja with him. Everyone resepcts that if you already have a tirtha guru they can't expect you to do puja with anyone else. That is the culture that they seem to have. I find that if you just respect it, you never have to get harrassed or get into any arguments. Thats the big advantage.

Now I have a relationship with Mohan Panda and if sometimes I can't pay, he doesn't get upset because he wants to maintain the relationship, and he knows in the long run I'm not going to stiff him. And it's not a very expensive relationship because I really just give measured, modest donations. The overall expense has been quite reasonable (I'm not a man of big means, I promise).

My opinion is that it is best to try to respect the brahmins at Radha Kunda, remembering the first sloka of Manah Siksa and the third sloka of Siksastika. I agree with Adwaita Prabhu in this regard. I think that to maintain a mood of respect and humilty is always much more Vaisnava and better for one's consciousness. Otherwise if one is quarrelling with others how will one be in any kind of devotional consciousness with which to approach Radha Kunda? I don't think this is an issue of intellectually establishing whether the pandas at Radha Kunda are bogus or not. Why can't we respect that this person has somehow or other spent so much time at Radha Kunda, which is the most glorious place of our gaudiya sampradaya? I don't think you have to think very hard to decide that someone who is living at Radha Kunda has so many wonderful, worshipable qualities, even if by some external measure they are a thief or a cheater. It's just a basic Vaisnava mood to be simple and respectful of everyone and not cause anyone any trouble.

Also, I'm from New York City, and I understand how business works. Sometimes you have to tip the cops or the mob or the doorman or driver or whoever - it's just a hellish part of the material world. I try not to resent it. When I go to Radha Kunda I understand that giving the Pandas a tip is just part of experience.

That sounds like one of my suggestions made near the beginning of the thread. I am glad that someone has practical experience of it and shows that it does work.

Thank you, Akinchana Krishna Das.

You get away with 20 rupees? Alas, the age of wonders is not over.

One respected sadhu told me that it is nothing but a business they have made out of puja, and that there is no real bhakti there. Consequently, we take no interest in such pujas at all. However he also added that I should not tell the pandas that he said such a thing, as they would be very angry with him. Saying that, he made a gesture of cutting the throat. Hence, our sadhu shall remain anonymous here.

I get away with 20 rupees because I have a *relationship* with the man. I actually genuinely like him, and I think he likes me. We're friends. Amazing, right?

I'm sure that you're sadhu friend is right. Still, as Vaisnavas I think ideally we want to relate to others from the heart.

Just yesterday I was reading a book of Ananta das Babji (that I think you edited, Madhava) where he was saying that advanced devotees will never criticize others. Sadhavo 'dosa dasrsinah. Why not try to follow this? I think the pandas at Radha Kunda offer us an excellent opportunity to try to exercise this principle.

This certainly has been my experience. There is certainly a gap in what most (western-born) sadhakas who stay in Vraja for long periods experience in their first month or year, and afterwards, when one realizes that, yes we are all fortunate and blessed to be here (birth-Brajabasis even more so) yet, it's not that we check our common sense at the door of Vraja-mandal in the name of Dhama-seva. I guess for short visits its easier to convice ourselves we are seeing the divya-dham, and all the Bihari rickshaw-wallas are gopis, the pandas are (also gopi)meanies etc.

What I'm getting at is there seems to be a psycho-spiritual adjustment for most western-conditioned devotees, that I observed in myself and in others who came from different parts of the globe. Eventually I found that just minding my own bhajan-business was the best policy and not worry about less than ideal standards of behavior from some Brajabasis. Of course by this time my face was well-enough known around Vrindavan and Govardhan parikrama-marg that I knew most pandas by first name, and they gave up on extracting funds from me. My wife however had a more dificult time with this, as she would be occasionally harassed when walking out of sight of me.

All that said, just as each of our personal relationships to Shri Krishna differ, we will each have a different experience of the Dham, which of course is initially molded by our lingering anarthas. There is a balance those of us non-siddha Dham-basis must find for ourselves somewhere between the starry-eyed neophyte stage and that of the cynical aparadhi.

Vraja-mandal is filled with the most extrodinary people I have met my entire life, yet the most amazing ones often keep to themselves and quietly go about their lives; they are not the ones most non-Hindi speaking visitors will never get to know. The heavy panda and tricky dukan-walla crowd is all many meet .

AKK is correct. Adopt your own panda to keep the others at bay. As for bhakti, my panda most certainly has it, though it is of course mixed with concern over his livelihood. I think it is harmful to lump them all in. gurau gosthe gosthalayisu sujane bhu sura gane.........

Adopt a Panda today !

Anyone going to Radha-Kund can ask for my Guru-Bhai(brother) "Mathura" Brajbasi. If he is still alive?

How do you follow "being an advanced devotee"? I do not think that is anything you can hope to artificially emulate over long periods of time. That is something you must grow into.

That aside, this principle is demonstrated in the context of people criticizing you, harassing you etc. What I have been trying to get at is the impact such conduct will have on other devotees, particularly people new to the path of bhakti. I'm sure we are all familiar with the idea of how we should behave when abusive behavior is directed toward ourselves, and how we should behave when the same is directed towards fellow devotees. And that is my main concern here, as I would hope I have already expressed.

Looking further at the principle of sAdhavo'doSa-darSinaH, we find the following in the very same chapter of Bhakta-tattva-vijanana you cite from:


Thus you'll find that regular sadhus will still have the capability for distinguishing between faults and virtues, and treating each in an appropriate manner. You will find a parallel for this from the Bhagavata-description of a madhyama-bhakta.

* * * * *

I also initially cultivated a friendly relationship with some of the pandas. They shall go unnamed here. One of them, as we arrived to Radha-kunda for the first time to stay for a longer time and got out of the taxi, offered to lead us "through a short-cut" to our accommodations. Having traveled for over a day straight, we were both tired and very unclean at that point. The shortcut, however, led us straight through the sangam, with all of our luggage included, with a stop in the middle, as we found water being poured into our hands. This was the instance I once narrated earlier at which we were made to pay 700 rupees. He still comes up to us regularly to remind us of how he is our dhama-guru, and we should not forget him. Responding how I am certainly not forgetting him, as I greet him with a joyful Radhe-Radhe whenever our paths cross, he then clarifies that not forgetting means giving money.

On a later occasion, on the recommendation of a friend, we did puja with another panda who was reputed to be nicer and more thorough in his puja. All was well during that visit, and on the next visit we did puja with him again. He then invited us over to his house to take a bit of prasad. We were first reluctant to accept the invitation, but eventually conceded, thinking of it as Vrajavasi-kripa. I also thought that it must certainly be nice to experience first-hand how affectionately Vrajavasis treat guests, as we all know how the guest is treated in such wonderful ways and all that. Going to his house, we did get a couple of pieces of burfi, along with some friendly words and a lengthy explanation on why he needs us to give him 10.000 rupees to fix this and that problem in his house.

That left us very disenchanted. I would never, ever imagine asking for money from a guest whom I invite to my house, nor indeed even from a guest who arrives uninvited. This was on our previous visit to Radha-kunda. We saw him again the other day, as he was sitting somewhere on a chair. Without first saying a word, he made a gesture with his fingers, the one you make to indicate "money" by rubbing your thumb with your forefinger and middle-finger, then clarifying "dakshin, dakshin, money money".

After these two encounters, we have seen it fit to heed the advice of this sadhu-friend of ours and stay afar from them. I do greet them Radhe-Radhe, but that's as far as it goes, and I also do not recommend their company to any friends who come around.

We shall see where that leads to, as a certain panda once began to physically push around a friend in the middle of the street as he was showing some other Western visitors around the place without showing an interest to the panda's services. At another time, a certain panda locked him inside the house to ensure business with some guests who had just left his house.

I would hope this explains why I do not endeavor to build long and lasting relationships of friendship and trade with them. I am confident that it will be the best solution for my bhajan to just stay afar from them, and I would heartily recommend the same to others as well.

* * * * * *

JD, Mathura Prasad is alive and well. He lives a few hundred meters away from Radha-kunda with his family. We haven't seen him for a few weeks now, but bump into him every now and then.

Thank you! Kindly convey 'Radhay, Radhey' to him on my behalf and that if all goes well I should be there comming Kartik month. Hope he is well and happy.

Madhava, I dont think any one of us here have said or recommended that one should develop intimate personal friendships with the Pandas. Respect and affection is something different from intimate personal friendships. Mahaprabhu told Jagadananda Pandit (CC Antya 13.36-37): mathurar swami saber caran bandiba. dure rohi bhakti koriho sange na rohiba. ta sabar acara cesta loite nariba. "Offer your obeisances to the lotus feet of the Mathura Brahmins. Stay far away from them. Be devoted to them but do not associate with them; you cannot take (imitate or understand) their activities."

Madhava,
You are obviously correct pointing out that "sadacara-bhaktas" and "madhyam-bhaktas" can make distinctions and will see faults. My humble opinion is just that in our personal dealings - with Pandas or whoever else - we should harmonize this principle with the need to offer all resepects to others, even those we may see faults in. This is a very sensative point, and certainly one I don't wish to quarrel with you about it.

How do we follow advanced devotees? I am an unfortunate and stupid man, and not at all a scholar capable of quoting sanskrit and debating others, but I think that is the essence of everything we aspire for as Vaisnavas. I've seen my Vaisnava superiors deal with troublesome and disturbing people very well, and in my own life I try to follow that. That is all I was trying to say, though I don't think I have expressed myself very clearly.

And now I run the risk of being called a terrible critic, but after reading Madhava's story of getting the dinner invite I can't help but remember Gaura Kishor das Babaji saying something to the effect of "Radha Kunda would be such a pleasant place to live were in not for 11 immoral men." I don't bring that up as a criticism, but just as a way of sympathizing with sincere devotees hoping to live and serve at Radha Kunda - it's a shame it's not an easier place to practice devotional service. Ultimately I sympathize with your struggles there and also wish it was better.

A friend of mine expressed his personal realization to me once that he thought that Krishna has made Radha Kunda an especially difficult place to inhabit to test the sincerity of those that wish to be there. Certainly it seems like one has to be especially sincere to appreciate the extrodinary spiritual value of Radha Kunda in the face of trying external circumstances. This also seems true of newcomers.

I think that Bhaktivinoda Thakura has said that Vrndavana will become increasingly covered in Kali-yuga. It just seems obviously true.

Hare Krishna,
akd

I have a gut feeling that many such statements by the GM elders like Jagannath das Babaji and Gaurakishor are more fabrications of GM managers than their actual words. I would not attach too much value to such statements.



For long I was wanting to say this too. Thanks for putting it into the discussion here. Imagine if every newcomer would be garlanded and red-carpeted - we would have an MVT and the whole Disneyland of Raman Reti now at the bank of the Kund!

Akinchan, I said - How do you follow "being an advanced devotee"? I of course do agree that we should follow advanced devotees. Reading the above carefully, you'll see that I am trying to say that we cannot follow the characteristic of an advanced devotee as a rule laid down to us, but have to rather progress through the delineated stages of devotion towards that level. Otherwise, one could similarly say, "be a bhava-bhakta". It would be nice to be one, granted.

Well, Madhava, are there immoral people at Radha Kunda or not? Could it be a more pleasant place to live? Even if it's not a real quote, is there truth in it or not?

Personally, I've heard a few nightmare stories, way heavier than annoying Pandas.

You bet. One of them seems to even have an internet connection.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

What exactly is the point of this question? It seems to be rather absurd waste of everyone’s time and thought.

I believe Advaita put it best when he said “Respect and affection is something different from intimate personal friendships. Mahaprabhu told Jagadananda Pandit (CC Antya 13.36-37): mathurar swami saber caran bandiba. dure rohi bhakti koriho sange na rohiba. ta sabar acara cesta loite nariba. "Offer your obeisances to the lotus feet of the Mathura Brahmins. Stay far away from them. Be devoted to them but do not associate with them; you cannot take (imitate or understand) their activities."

I try to have this as a personal philosophy when it comes to thinking of any aspiring Vaisnava. You cannot for certain no ones heart so if you find something questionable about their behavior then offer respects from a distance and move on. You won’t be hurt by showing and offering such respect but if you show disrespect one can devastate their spiritual life. Just as respect and affection is different from a personal friendship it is also different than condoning or approving of ones actions, beliefs, etc.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Rasaraja Prabhu -- I'm terribly sorry for sounding offensive. Have you been following the last dozen postings or so? The reason I asked Madhava the question was because he wanted to say that my Gaura Kishor das Babaji quote was a fabrication designed to promote the institutional interests of Gaudiya Math. I'm just saying, "yeah, even so, it's still obviously true."

What we were talking about was how it's a shame the external environment at Radha Kunda isn't more favorable to devotional service. I wish the Pandas were easier to deal with (the original point of the thread), and that in general Vrndavan dham wasn't so externally spoiled.

My point was absolutely not to criticize anyone! I'm terribly sorry for sounding critical. Your points about respecting Vaisnavas and keeping a respectful distance was very well taken.

And congradulations on your initiation!

Thank you for extending this to any aspiring Vaishnava.

In an earlier post, I called for broader application as well, if we indeed intend to apply this vision wholesale, and not only to a select few Vrajavasis. For example, we must apply it to all the animals of the dham. Including the mosquitos, whom you aren't supposed to kill left and right.

I'm beginning to really like the monkeys. Malati is still a bit freaked out by some old experiences with them, but I'm beginning to like them. At least I like some of the real Vrajavasis. I spoke a bit of dog to the dogs the other day, though I'm not sure I got the accent right. I think they like me, they run after us all the time.

And Lakshman Pujari, some call him Lakshman Panda. I like him, too. He has a cool beard and a cool Honda Hero he rides on to different places. He's initiated in the Nimbarka-sampradaya, but likes Gaudiyas too, and manjari-bhav. We saw him at the Ranbari festival a couple of days back on his bike. He didn't want me to film him, but I did it anyway. Expect to see him in the concluding shots of an upcoming video from the festival of Ranbari's Siddha Baba.

And I like Mahesh at the STD shop. He's a bit bhang-ed out much of the time, especially in the evenings, but he's real nice.

So that's a start there with the gosthalayins! I'm working on it.

I don't think I said anything of its validity, and I also didn't want to.

Oh, wait. The whole time I've been thinking Madhava was discrediting my Gaura Kishor das Babaji quote, by I just realized that Advaita is the one that posted that. Sorry, Madhava. My last two posts were messed up.

And do you have an answer, Advaita?

Well, first of all, of course there are some immoral characters at Radhakund. Secondly, the tone which is ascribed to Gaurakishor and Jagannath das Babas, almost invariably quoted in Gaudiya Matha publications, is so unlike the general tone of Vaishnavas (which is trinad api sunicena taror iva sahisnuna amanina manadena) and so similar to that of Bhaktisiddhanta, their leader, that it gives me very strong suspicions about the validity of such quotes.
Thirdly and finally, it is of course impossible to verify what I suspect, as it is indeed impossible to prove by the GMers that Gaurakishor actually said such things.

If there is validity to the origins of the said quotes, one has to wonder what the original tone and context was. When passed on as the heritage of a tradition, such sayings are invariably coloured by the moods of the speakers.

Ever wondered, why do all the sadhus in O.B.L. Kapoor's books sound a lot like Dr. Kapoor himself?

Regarding my note on a broader application of the concept of spotless Vraja, referring to what Advaita posted of Sri Ananta Dasji's tika on Manah-siksa and the verses quoted therein from Prabodhananda Sarasvatipad, I would like to note that in the context of Prabodhananda's bhava-vision, this divine vision indeed does not apply only to those born in Vraja, but to anything and everything he might come across in his love-intoxicated state of devotional madness.

Hey, we are back to the points mentioned in an earlier post. "You should be a bhava-bhakta!"

Thank you for the invitation. I have friends who have lived in Vrindavan and Radha-kunda for extended lengths of time, I know what it involves. I have no maha-bhagavata aspirations, I am just speaking as someone who is over 30 and has seen more of the Third world than India and who has learned somehow that one needs to strive for respect, patience and tolerance. All things considered, Westerners still remain guests to the tradition and the dham, and as guests better be on the side of caution.

I am not closing my eyes to the awkwardities, I just say they are part of the whole thing. The tradition was born or revealed in this harsh environment. And as Advaita said, there is still some wonder there. To me it seems better to follow the rules of the place (and take the necessary precautions) than to try to change the rules or the people there. You may very well end up with a different religion.

Dear Akincana Krishna das,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

No need to apologize. My point is that your question was an absurd question as I think we all know that there are indeed corrupt people at Radha Kunda. In fact I have yet to visit the temple, tirtha or place where such people do not exist.

In regards to the statements attributed to GKDB I see the issue being that we are ignoring the context and simply using the words to assimilate a point. To use a statement with little regard to context (i.e. time, place and circumstance) is practically useless.

A few months back I was speaking with Srila Satsvarupa Maharaja about his concerns on my direction. He brought up ACBSP's strong statements on Babaji's. One point I made to him was that ACBSP wasn't making a point about “Babaji's” but behavior. To me this was obvious as ISKCON/GM parampara itself contains Babaji's so "Babaji's" aren’t the problem. ACBSP's statements were about those who called themselves Babaji but whose actions (i.e. enjoying multiple woman, intoxication, etc.) were contrary to such a title/standing.

Wouldn't you agree that ACBSP was specifically addressing those that accept a title or position (i.e. Babaji, Swami, Guru, etc) without having the qualification and/or disciplines to live with what such a title/position/responsability infers? Or do you really think he was talking about "babaji's"? I will venture to guess that you would agree that his statements addressed those who don’t live up to their responsibilities. If this is the case then what would ACBSP, BSST or GKDB say about many of the things that have happened with ISKCON or with "Swami's"? Furthermore would you then think all Swami's were bad? My point is that context cannot be ignored.

I think everyone here shares your disappointment that the external environment at Radha Kunda isn't more favorable to devotional service. I think we would all also share that feeling about most tirtha's, temples and Gaudiya Institutions.

On a lighter note if anyone thinks the panda's at Radha Kunda are heavy then stay away from Nandagrama...

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

ps. Are you the Akincana Krishna das that I know?

Hmm perhaps I should be more specific and not just say 'tone' but 'words' as well. I believe the actual words of these 'quotes' from Gaurakishor are probably the products of some sinister minister from the GM. Not that they are necessarily wholly untrue, but the question is if GKDB actually spoke these words or not.

"Hmm perhaps I should be more specific and not just say 'tone' but 'words' as well. I believe the actual words of these 'quotes' from Gaurakishor are probably the products of some sinister minister from the GM. Not that they are necessarily wholly untrue, but the question is if GKDB actually spoke these words or not."

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

"I believe the actual words of these 'quotes' from Gaurakishor are probably the products of some sinister minister from the GM." hahahahaha . I mean I think that is a bit dramatic...

Anyhow there are so many invariables that would steer what to make of such a comment for followers of GKDB. Since it wasn't a written/recorded quote and there is no real source of when it was said and what context it should be simply left alone.

A sinister plot.... hehehehehe....

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

A sinister minister?

Dear Rasaraja Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.

Yup, I'm the guy you know. I agree with everything you said about Babajis and Swamis. My point in quoting Gaura Kishor das Babaji was lost in my confussion over who responded to it - so I'll drop it.

Also, would you mind if I wrote to you personally? I'm really intrigued by the personal decisions you've made and I think I could learn a lot from you...

Thank you.

Hare Krishna,
Akincana Krishna dasa

Dear Akincana Krishna dasa,

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Radhe Radhe.

Sometimes the issues with internet conversations verse live ones is we can't clearly see another's emphasis.

It would be great to hear from you. You can either PM me or write via e-mail (link provided in my profile).

I hope you are well.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

You may very well end up with a different religion, if you try to change the rules of the place and so forth? Wow. Then, perhaps we should put a stop to all these campaigns striving to clean Vrindavan of pollution, bring back some of the nature that once was there, weed out the excessive use of plastic, and so forth. Because the vast majority of the local people just don't care. Who are we to try to influence them.

I wouldn't think we can just think that it's all right as it is, and it is as it's meant to be.

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Karunamayi, Lakshman and Honda Hero

In a sense, I am with both of you here. Things must be changed but they will change best in co-operation with the people. It may be fruitless to improve the landscape without involving and persuading the people. This, of course, is the challenge. In meeting this challenge positively we may also undergo change ourselves, not in our aspiration but in our modus operandi.