Eligibility for raganuga-bhakti... - vaidhi & raganuga-bhakti questions

Dandavats!

I have been trying to learn more about raganuga-bhakti. So I started reading a text I found at gaudiya.com essays called The Brief Essence of Raganuga-bhakti by Madhavananda Das

I had some questions about the eligibility for sadhana-bhakti, vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti.



I am wondering how someone like me fits into this. I have had a thirst for knowledge and answers to life's questions since junior high school, after reading "Illusions" by Richard Bach. From there it was a seemingly endless quest for the perfect book. That leads me to the vedas years later and through Prabhupada's books I am developing the desire to find out how I can love and serve God, the way He desires. I can see how my faith is being supported by scriptures, but I am wondering how the above quotes and statements fit. Am I even at a stage of vaidhi-bhakti yet? Then there is the following to consider:



So I am wondering if this is a process by which one comes to raganuga-bhakti? In my case, I read a book of Krishna's 10th canto pastimes called "The Play of God" and from there went to the bramhacari selling Prabhupada's books on the corner to find out more about This wonder, Sri Krsna. And I can see how my desire for devotion did develope after that. It continues on:



So I am wondering when bhava arises, is it that one just doesn't need scriptures anymore? Or is it just a subtle change of not being dependent on them to sustain one's faith. I heard once that after following the rules and regs and methods of sadhana bhakti eventually brings one to the point where they don't need to follow these anymore, that the attain the level these practices bring you to. Is this that level, developing bhava and raganuga-bhakti? It goes on to say that vaidhi-bhakti purifies the heart & brings one to raganuga-bhakti.

I hope I am making sense and not seming like a total idiot here...
And once more:



What I seem to be getting at is this... if this is the process, it would seem important that people first hear about Lord Krsna. Through scripture, they may take up sadhana, and then come to a point where they may develope some greed to attain the feelings described in Krsnas pastimes?

It seems to me there are two distinct camps, one that propogates vaidhi-bhakti & sadhana-bhakti by preaching, and the other developing bhava & practicing raganuga-bhakti thru personal bhajan?

So that is what I was wondering so far. I am interested to read comments, before I read more of The brief Essence of raganuga-bhakti

(please forgive typos, this keyboard is flighty... I will try and edit when I have more time... BTW, I cut and paste out of an Adobe file, so it may not have transfered too well)

Some more thoughts... (quoting from The brief essence of raganuga-bhakti by Madhavananda Das, link is to PDF doc)

after a devotee devlopes bhava, does {s}he still engage in devotional service? or is there a change in one's bhajan?



so we do hear from the scriptures about ragatmika. So when one follows the taste,and engages in raganuga-bhakti, I am trying to figure out what changes. Is it the devotees feelings? I mean, does the follower still continue with the practice of sadhana-bhakti? I may not be making myself clear or using the right words & might be mistaking one practice for another.(i.e. I used to think Brahma and brahmin to both mean Lord Brahma) So I thought about the nine recommended processes of devotional service given by Prahladha Maharaja in the Srimad Bhagavatam:

sravanam kirtanam visnoh
smaranam pada-sevanam
arcanam vandanam dasyam
sakhyam atma-nivedanam

The Nine Processes of Devotional Service Are:
1. Hearding the name and glories of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead.
2. Chanting His glories.
3. Remembering the Lord.
4. Serving the Lord's Lotus Feet.
5. Worshiping the Deity.
6. Offering obeisances unto the Lord.
7. Acting as the Lord's servant.
8. Making friends with the Lord.
9. Surrendering oneself fully to the Lord

Are all nine still followed in raganuga-bhakti?

Also, is raganuga-bhakti only followed in personal bhajan vs. preaching? What is the importance of association in raganuga bhakti?



I am having trouble understanding that. I thought when we go back to Godhead, we are an associate of Lord Krsna... what does it mean then to attain Him in Vraja?

It simply means to find yourself in Braj, to be pushed playfully into a soft cow cake by a cow herder, to be woken at night by ankle bells and a wailing flute, and, like the milk maids, to consider Lord Narayan the Supreme Being and Krishna an inimitable village boy.

Wow, that's a lot of questions there. I've been keeping fairly busy here, I'll try to look into this tonight. Thanks for asking!

Make that tomorrow.

Anyhow I'll drop in a couple of short lines, since the questions were so excellent.


When one's desire to engage in bhakti isn't really motivated by either of the two, then correct, I believe that wouldn't be classified as following either of the two bhakti-margas. Only when there is a specific conception of god and his abode to be attained at the end of the sadhana, that is, at the time of siddhi, is one factually following one of these two kinds of sadhana-bhakti. Raganuga leads to Vraja-dham, and vaidhi leads to Vaikuntha. A mixture of the two leads to Dwaraka.



Yes, hearing of Sri Krishna's sweetness, the beauty of his associates' love for him, etc., and the subsequent awakening of a desire to serve him like his associates do in Vraja-dham, is indeed the way of entrance to raganuga-bhakti.




No, bhava-bhakti isn't a stage when you stop reading or so. In the context of vaidhi-bhakti, it means you become self-sustained in your inspiration for service and devotion. Regarding raganuga-bhakti and reading at the more advanced stages, there are so many beautiful prayers that nourish our devotion on the stage of bhava, even. It's just that our inspiration isn't dependent on any scriptural commandments, it is sustained by our natural attraction. With raganuga, this is from ruchi onwards, actually, when jata-ruci-raganuga-bhakti begins. Bhava comes later.

Nothing does anything automatically. Things come about as the outcome of conscious endeavors, prayer and grace. Rules and regulations without a proper understanding and mood will bring you nowhere. They will give you some pious merit that will eventually lead you to sadhu-sanga, and in the company of advanced sadhus you will learn of the proper methods of bhakti-sadhana and so forth.

Vaidhi-bhakti will certainly purify the heart and make it a more befitting vessel for raganuga-bhakti, but engagement in vaidhi-bhakti is never the effective cause for the awakening of lobha (spiritual greed), which in turn thrusts one on the path of raganuga. kRSNa tad-bhakta kArunya lobha mAtraika hetuka, says Rupa Goswami. The mercy of Krishna or his devotees is the only cause for this spiritual greed.




Oh yes, hearing of Krishna is absolutely important. Without hearing of him, why would anyone serve him? That would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it?




Please note that raganuga is also classified as sadhana-bhakti. Everyone starts with sadhana-bhakti, and after sadhana comes bhava, and then prema. Sometimes "preaching" and personal bhajan are artificially separated. If your personal practice isn't all that great, what will you preach? Mahaprabhu praised Haridas Thakur for being a person who practices what he preaches. That is required. Consider preaching the outpouring of a heart full of devotion. Only such preaching will have any lasting effect on anyone.


More tomorrow. I'm glad to know that little compilation has given you inspiration to look deeper and deeper into the mysteries of devotion. Jay Radhe!

Thank you Madhava for those answers. I wanted some discussion/feedback before reading further. Your replies cleared things up abit, again, thanks!

The above was exactly what I wanted to talk about next, infact.

More soon....

I knew once I got downstairs, I would think of something to say

I think what I was getting at was this:
I recently read the bio of Srila Gaur-Kishore das babaji. He seemed very much engaged in a more private bhajan, where those interested sought him out, and infact it appears he even went to some extreme measures to try and discourage this. (i.e. performing his bhajan by a potty-pit) Whereas Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati introduced a different style and actively preached by distributing literature, etc....( I don't want to bring up contraversies about whether he is bonafide or not, I just want to use this as an example of what I based my statement on)... perhaps I was attempting to artificialy seperate the two (personal/private bhajan & preaching) by overlooking his practices up to that point. A healthy mixture of the two seems to bring about a nice affect.

After thinking about the seeming difference between Gaur Kishore and Bhaktisiddhantha, I mused over Prabhupada's initial approach to his preaching when he got to New York. He went to Washington Park and performed Harinama, attracting those interested to him... in a way it reminds me of what I read of Gaur Kishore. I am still learning about the practices & histories of previous Vaishnava saints and acaryas, so this is some of the things I find myself in wonder about.

I suppose it is different in India where most of the population is already familiar with who Krsna is, where as in the west, it is more by the mercy of the Lord and by those preaching that we may hear about and become attracted to Krsna.

I am still trying to understand what is personal bhajan, what to speak what is bhajan itself. Until recently, I thought it was just singing and playing instruments. I am beginning to see there is a deeper definition.

I will have more thoughts and questions soon, I am sure

I also find your questions pleasing to hear and Madhavananda's answers even more so.
I have been rereading The Saints of Vraja by Kapoor, and a couple of days ago I read the chapter about Manohar Das Baba. At the end of the chapter he gave his definition of bhajan and how to attain it.
I thought it's placement here would provide a valuable comment.

"Manohara Dasa Baba used to say that bhajan is not possible without the complete surrender at the feet of the Lord and total dependence upon Him. It is only in the state of utter dependence on Him that one enjoys the calmness of mind which is necessary for bhajan: A mind that is disturbed by various kinds of worldly anxiety is not fit for bhajan."

He defined bhajan as: "A state in which the mind is constantly absorbed in meditation of the Lord and revolts at the thought of everything else as poison".

He also said: "One must be firm in bhajan. To a man who practises bhajan steadfastly and with all his heart and soul, staking for it his life and everything else, obstacles begin to appear as illusory as the "horns of a hare." The Lord Himself makes the path of bhajan smooth for him. But this does not happen in a day; both perseverence and patience are necessary."

Thank you, Sakhicharan, for saying that my questions are pleasing to hear....{ if only you could hear my voice, I am sure you'd take that back } I fear that I am not quite getting the questions in my mind to match with the questions I end up writing, but thank you never the less. I do agree, however, that Madhava's answers are very pleasing, what to speak insightfull!

I am still confused about what is engaging in raganuga. In the beginning, is it reading, hearing, & perhaps meditating on the amourous pastimes of Sri Krsna and the gopis of Vraja? That might be a little too advanced for me, as I am hardly purified enough. But is it just the loving affairs between Krsna Radha and the Gopis? Or does it include all of Krsnas divine Lilas? Or better yet, is it that one should hear these Lilas from a purified devotee... since it is by Their mercy & Krsnas that we can attain sacred greed?

i am curious if any of you agree that the Srimad Bhagavatam should be read in order, taken in steps, in that each canto prepares you for the next..so that when you get to the 10th canto, you are better prepared to read, hear, chant and understand these confidential topics?

Raganuga bhakti means imagining yourself as a part of Radha and Krishna's world, and doing all sadhana in that consciousness. Vidhi bhakti is primarily conducted only in the sadhaka deha--hearing, chanting, etc., are all there, but the goal of being with God (in whatever form) is left in his hands. "Give me whatever service YOU want."

Raganuga bhakti begins with the prayer, "I want specifically THIS in Radha Krishna's world." The raganuga bhakta's sadhana is mystical participation in the divine realm.

Through raganuga bhakti, one quickly ceases all prayers for liberation because one practically loses all consciousness of being a sadhaka. This colors his perception of and participation in this world.

This is very interesting. Thank you Jagat for what you put so simply, yet somehow it has left me baffled

Would not it be better to leave that up to Lord Krsna? To tell you what service He would like you to perform? I may not be understanding correctly yet. I mean, if it is your desire to engage in, for instance, the Rasa Lila dance with Sri Krsna, wouldn't He grant this desire for His reasons and not yours?

I may still be very neophite in my thinking. I have been under the impression that certain desires for enjoyment is what got us thrown out of Goloka Vrndavana in the first place? I mean, how far can we go with our desires in Krsna's abode before we start developing envy? Don't get me wrong, I can see how this intimate relationships with Krsna must be really something... but I thought just as much bliss would come from being the dirt path that Krsna walks on. Please correct me if I am wrong and there are varieties of bliss or "flavours of experience". (I may be getting in way over my head here )

Think about it. Yashoda's love is higher than Raktaka or Patraka's. Yashoda goes to get the boiling milk, but Krishna wants her to stay and breastfeed him. So she is making Krishna angry, but she is still only thinking of pleasing him.

This is explained in the commentary to the anyAbhilASita-zUnyam verse. "AnukUlyena kRSNAnuzIlanam." Ultimately, Krishna puts himself under the control of Yogamaya, and the devotees are also under Yogamaya. They are engaged in the various pushings and pullings of divine prema, nothing else. So Yashoda knows better than Krishna what he wants or needs. Radha knows better than Krishna what he wants or needs. Even the manjaris are stopping Krishna at the door to Radha's kunj and saying, "Sorry, Kanai, we cannot let you in. It will give our Swamini too much pain if she sees you after all the nonsense you have been doing. Go and find some nice chocolates and some red roses or something, because if you come empty-handed like this, she'll bite your head off. Come back tomorrow and we'll let you know if you have a chance."

And sometimes Krishna even touches the manjari's feet and says, "Please, please intervene on my behalf," and the manjari still has to say no because she knows how real Radha's pain is.

So is this activity pleasing to Krishna? Krishna is so overwhelmed by Yogamaya that he cannot think straight. He cannot manifest a four-armed Narayan form and order the manjari, "You little dasi girl! Who do you think you are? You're a jiva and I am ishwara. What arrogance to think you can stop me from going into Radha's kunja if I want to!"

That is the price Krishna himself has to pay to taste the love of his devotees. He has to renounce his God-ship and give it to Yogamaya. He has to relegate power to her to create and maintain the world of his lila.

Raganuga bhakti means cultivating the mentality that makes you eligible to enter this world--the world that Krishna himself says is the dearest to him. Bhakti always comes out of bhakti, but vidhi bhakti says "Bhakti means service, and service will lead to love" (like an arranged marriage). Raganuga bhakti says, "Bhakti is the attraction I feel to Krishna. If this bhakti develops, it leads to prema."

It is almost backwards. It doesn't even seem like service. It is saying, "I will cultivate this attraction. I will cultivate the joy and emotion of absorption in Krishna's name, form, qualities, pastimes and associates, and service will automatically come from that like a secondary result."

In fact, how can relishing Krishna's name, form, qualities and pastimes be considered service? It is sheer delight. Isn't it sense gratification? No, because the highest service is to become a part of his world, where everything is Krishna-maya. There, everything is natural absorption in him, everything is done for him, and everything has within it the automatic reward of absorption in him, sac-cid-ananda vigraha.

The vaidhi bhakta tries to break away from this material world. The raganuga bhakta transforms this material world with his vision. Everything is stamped with Krishna consciousness.

And just to add: The reason raganuga bhaktas say that vidhi bhakti can be practiced for a million years without attaining raganuga (sAdhanaughair anAsaGgair alabhyA sucirAd api) is that vaidhi bhakti has a certain mentality attached to it. That mentality is cultivated by the vaidhi bhakti process. A culture means that it only becomes stronger.

So it is quite possible to pay lip service to the Vraja bhava without ever really entering into it. There is a kind of letting go, or surrender, a leap of raga, that transports a bhakta from the vaidhi mentality to the raga one.

Some people (usually those on the vaidhi side of things) who argue that the current system of initiations, siddha pranali, etc., are a kind of vaidhi bhakti because they require following rules, etc. This is actually a misunderstanding of the difference between raga and vaidhi bhakti. The difference in the two is not so much what is done externally, but the internal attitude with which they are done. Through the siddha-pranali system, the aspiring devotee actually becomes invested with a natural sense of connnectedness and belonging to that realm. Externally, that connectedness comes through the disciplic chain leading to a direct associate of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and internally through the association of siddha manjaris and sakhis who participate directly in that lila. That is the real magic of initiation in the Gaudiya sampradaya.

Another objection sometimes heard from the "antiparty" ( ) is that the Gaudiya Vaishnavas do not appreciate viraha or separation because they cultivate the sense of appurtenance. This is ludicrous nonsense. Separation can only be felt because one feels one belongs so intensely that even the illusory sense of separation burns like a thousand flames. But just like people in this world report that once a certain pain threshold has been crossed one loses consciousness, so too does the pain of separation transport one into a sense of identity with Goloka. Like Mahaprabhu floating in the ocean off Puri.

No one cultivates separation; one cultivates union. Separation is Yogamaya's imposition on union, the flame whereby the gold of prema is smelted and purified to ever greater brilliance.

There are many misconceptions about raganuga bhakti, which is generally called Sahajiyaism by those whose understanding is superficial.

Ah-ha! o.k. now I think I am starting to get it. This is making sense to me now. ( a little) It would make sense for there to be exchanges like this.



so then is a mixture of vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti essentially obtained based on your desires or motives for performing service? a change in view or the desired goal? while perhaps continuing on with purifying oneself?

Responding to your second post in this thread, Srijiva.


When the greed awakens, the motivation changes. Along with that, the objective of sadhana becomes clarified. Your desire to attain a service akin to that of a particular associate of Radha-Krishna predominates, supplies the inspiration for your sadhana. And yes, it is still called sadhana-bhakti. Externally, it may look very similar to regular vaidhi-bhakti, give or take some details (that you find discussed in Visvanatha's Raga-vartma-candrika, get a copy if you don't have one yet!).



Addressing this, Sri Rupa Goswami says:



Recommended reading: Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.2.270-309.



There are two kinds of practitioners, the extrovert and the introvert. Bhaktivinod has called them the gosthyanandi and the viviktanandi. These are two distinct psychological make-ups. Both may be found among practitioners of both vaidhi and raganuga-sadhanas. All our acharyas were engaged in raganuga-bhakti. Some "preached" more, some less. Take, for example, the example of Narottama, Shyamananda and Srinivas -- so much they traveled, spreading the floods of raga-bhakti that began swelling in all directions as Sriman Mahaprabhu dove into the ocean of bhakti-rasa upon descending to this world. As I said in an earlier post, this "preaching" is the outpouring of a heart full of devotion. It is not a mere superficial endeavor done on the command of another. Such preaching lacks the potency to change the heart of another, to invoke the presence of bhakti therein.



This "back to godhead" is a very generic concept. Sripad Visvanatha has explained in the second chapter of his Raga-vartma-chandrika that, upon attaining siddhi (perfection), the sadhaka takes birth from the womb of a Vraja-gopi in one of the universes where Sri Krishna is displaying his wondrous pastimes. Growing up among the nitya-siddha-parshadas, the premi-bhakta, having concretely attained his svarupa, learns the various intricacies of prema up to maha-bhava embodied by Sri Radha Thakurani (in the case of the manjaris), and at the end of that life, having participated in the prakata-lila (manifest pastimes) of Sri Krishna, is transformed into the aprakata-lila (unmanifest pastimes, taking place in the spiritual sky) in the innermost region of Goloka called Vraja, where the pastimes sweetest of all unfold throughout the eight periods of the day.

That is essentially what it means.

Jagat, this is priceless!

He can't drink *this* beverage and expect to stay sober...

you know something? Can you believe I just now realized that you compiled The brief essence of raganuga-bhakti, Madhava? I mean, how funny is that? It's good I am going to the source! anyways, shall we continue?:



is this to be taken for face value? or is it best to have had some advancement first regarding one's misconceptions and lustful tendencies, or is this the way to over come our bad programming, by hearing about Sri Krsna and the maidens of Vraja, from those qualified... it goes on to say ..."For the faithful, whether pure or impure
in heart, hearing narrations of the deeds of the Lord is recommended." Does that include all the narrations of His deeds?



moods of father & son I think I can understand.... I am not feeling much of either right now.... servant? surely this does not include that of devotional service, when we are in a serving mood to guru or fellow vaishnava, or to Krsna does it? Or is my western mind clouding me up, here...

Looking forward to your comments!

The male transformations might be rather masculin sexual agitation. Vikara-transformation;it's is a dodgy synonym for Vikara here. So if somehow a person gets sexually aroused then it would be detremental to for them to hear the intimate pastimes of madhura rasa.
Sri Jiva Goswami annotation on the "vikriditam....etc.," sloka from tha end of Rasapancadhyaya, points out that listening to the amorous diversions and the love-sports of all-pervading Visnu with the young newly-wed damsels of Vraja is a (the) most powerful sadhana. The reason being that instead of overcoming sexual desire and then developing bhakti, the narratives of the Rasa and such lila, hearing with sraddha, first one attains supreme devotion, thereafter the malady of lust is overcome and one quickly becomes tranquil.
That's also why in Sridhara's tika he calls Krsna as the one who quels the pride of Cupid, because Cupid never got to dally with so many othermen's wives. Or the pious hearer gets beyond the influence of Cupid by hearing, reciting and contemplating this (Rasa) lila.

I was wondering whether you were aware of that. Continue? By all means, let's.



The qualification given therein is zraddhAnvitaH, endowed with faith. In other words, endowed with faith that these narrations of Sri Krishna's sports with the damsels of Vraja are the pinnacle of all divine joy, and the supreme cure for the disease of your heart. If you have faith in that statement, then by all means, you should hear. On the other hand, if you are inclined to take it on face value only, then perhaps you shouldn't. First, try and develop a deep faith in the sadhus who are engaged in Vraja-bhajana. Sadhus, such as Shuka Muni, who, true to his name, is none other than one of Krishna's dear parrots, flying all around the forests of Vraja, witnessing all wondrous pastimes of Sri Yugala.



Very clearly such hearing was given as the cure for the hRd-roga, or the disease of the heart, and commenting on this verse, the acharyas sing in one voice how bhakti arises first and flushes out the evils of the heart upon its arrival. paraM dRStva nivartate -- having attained the higher, he gives up the lower. The idea is that by hearing of these divine sports of love, your heart will become enchanted and you will realize how their mundane counterparts are such pale and tasteless reflections of the original. On the other hand, if you never hear of the pure and priceless spritual sports, their mundane counterparts will seem so attractive and alluring. That makes sense, doesn't it?



Servant -- as in those in Vaikuntha fanning Narayana, or as in those at the house of Nanda Maharaja who wash Krishna's laundry and clean the house. That is dAsya-bhAva, one of the five primary sthayI-bhAvas, or permanent affections. If you aspire for attaining such a mood, then yes, also you. However this does not refer to the generic idea of jIver svarUpa hoy kRSNer nitya-dAs we often hear of.

Regarding why those in the moods of father, son and servant should not engage in hearing such narrations, the reason is that in the kingdom of lila, they are unaware of such sports. Nanda Baba does not know of his having such affairs with the newly-wedded ladies of Vraja. What an outrage it would be if the people of the village knew of his son's engaging in such immoral behavior! "Certainly my son would not do such things," he thinks. Of course there is gossip in the village, but hardly Krishna's parents believe it. Therefore he has to pretend he has gone to sleep and then sneak out in the darkness of the night to meet his beloveds in the forests of Vrindavan. Some servants in Vraja may know of these affairs, granted, but their dAsya-bhAva is not pure dAsya as it appears in Vaikuntha, it is mixed with the sweet mellows of Vraja-rasa.

The consideration of sons is a bit irrelevant in terms of Vraja-lila, but if there are innocent boys substantially younger than Krishna, then they too should not know of such affairs. His close companions, the priya-narma-sakhas in particular, of course know of his whereabouts and secret projects in the caves of Govardhan and so forth.

Such wonderful topics we are churning in this thread!

Thank you Madhava prabhu. Oh, the "face value" Q:, I meant, was the quoted verse as simply true as it would seem?...or was there some progress first needed before hearing...Not sure if that was clear, as I tend to be abit quirky with my words
But I think you answered the question, and then some!

I am getting quite a schooling here
More to come....

I read the following at the Sachi Dulal Das Babaji posting and started wondering...



are there unlimited manjari identities? or are there a certain number that everyone shares? Could you elaborate on this? Are these identities we have had before? Are these identities what we acheive after we are done with taking births...provided that is what we want to attain?

There are infinite manjari-svarupas "out there". Depending on the history of your previous lives, you may or may not have been connected with the parshada-deha in the past. However, once you are recognized as a particular manjari by a sad-guru through the merit of his revelation, it'll stick to you in any and all consecutive births. This manjari-svarupa is the identity we will attain upon taking birth in the prakata-lila (manifest pastimes) of Sri Krishna as we attain siddhi, and it is also the form in which we meditate upon ourselves as serving during our sadhana-smarana. (Vide sevA sAdhaka-rUpena siddha-rUpena cAtra hi.)

Hari bol!

I have been somewhat hung up on the topic of revealing one's own eternal form (siddha deha) and the eleven aspects there of (ekadasha-bhava?). I find myself contemplating this in many ways. Namely if that is my desire, is it attainable in this lifetime?...and I find myself even wondering about the identity before it is revealed. Is this identity independently serving whether or not we are aware of it? I may still be hard headed and that was probably already explained, so forgive me...but those were some thoughts this morning.

Another thing I was thinking about was vipralambha-seva, or thinking of Krsna in seperation and how it is said to be far better than serving Krsna directly. (as when Krsna left Vrndavan for Mathura, leaving the Gopis feeling most dejected and always crying out of seperation from Him) I am trying to get an understanding of how raganuga bhakti is practiced, is it that this medetated on along with other pastimes? Do we meditate on serving and associating with (or in the absence of) Sri Krsna? Perhaps this may be the dynamics when Narrotama Thakur sings Radha~Krsna prana mora...?

And another thing... in text eleven of Nectar of Instruction:

krsnasyoccaih pranaya-vasatih preyasibhyo 'pi radha
kundam casya munibhir abhitas tadrg eva vyadhayi
yat presthair apy alam asulabham kim punar bhakti-bhajam
tat premedam sakrd api sarah snatur aviskaroti

"Of the many objects of favored delight and of all the lovable damsels of Vrajabhumi, Srimati Radharani is certainly the most treasured object of Krsna's love. And, in every respect, Her divine kunda is described by great sages as similarly dear to Him. Undoubtedly Radha-kunda is very rarely attained even by the great devotees; therefore it is even more difficult for ordinary devotees to attain. If one simply bathes once within those holy waters, one's pure love of Krsna is fully aroused. "

I would like to hear some comments on this verse... What does it mean to attain Radha Kund? How far is it beyond living and serving on the banks, & having one's siddha deha revealed? Is there more?

Forgive me if my questions seem empty or uninteligable, I can't seem to get my concentration today

Radhe Radhe!

In my humble opinion "to attain" Sri Radhakunda can have different meanings.

Initially I would say the first step to attain is to develop attraction to that wonderful lake. ThenI could imagine to read about and to gather information about the kunda to strengthen the attraction. After that maybe the desire to go there.

But to really attain Sri Radhakunda in the real sense, one should associate with Vaishnavas who spend their life at the Holy Lake. Best thing is to take shelter of an exalted devotee who can give you "entrance" to that "inner circle". Best is to take initiation from someone like that and later on seal the entrance with having become acquainted with your siddha-deha, given by the grace of that particuliar saint...

I was meditating a lot about Sri Radhakunda, even back in ISKCON. And finally the desire grew stronger and stronger, and look what happened to a fool like me.

The siddha-deha exists already in the spiritual world. Our concern is in directing our awareness towards that form which is suitable for our desired services for Radha-Krishna. And yes, it is certainly attainable in this lifetime. Bhava-bhakti is considered the stage on which one attains full unity with the siddha-deha, but prior to that, the sadhaka will also have visions and degrees of absorption with it.

* * * * * * * * * *

Question on vipralambha-seva has been split into another thread. Question on attaining Radha-kunda has also been split into another thread. Please direct all comments on those two topics to the appropriate threads.

In contemplating this topic over the weekend, I was thinking about how I can perform devotional service based on what I know. Which is not much. But it is practical. What I am getting at is that I know what it is like to hanker after something...as I am hankering to perform devotional service. As far as spiritual greed.... I don't know what that is, as I have never experienced such greed, not in this lifetime, anyways. It seems like it is such an advanced level.

So how important is it then to really understand the degrees or levels of greed and love for Sri Krsna prior to actually developing them? I am trying to keep in mind that lobha/greed is only obtained thru the mercy of Krsna or His devotees.... is it that one day the practitioner/follower is suddenly struck with this intense level of greed? or is it built up?

In addressing levels of greed, please read the passage quoted from Raga-vartma-chandrika in this thread.

Dear Madhavaji,
I had hard time to understand this particular conception of Gaudiya orthodoxy, but couple of days ago I came to the same conclusion by "mundane logic"... Can you provide some good evidense from our scriptures, proving this teaching? I remember quotation from Priti Sandarbha, that you cited in one of the previous threads, but actually it could be understood in different ways, not necessarily proving the existence of siddha-dehas in spiritual world:

vaikuNThasya bhagavato jyotir-aMza-bhUtA vaikuNTha-loka-zobha-rUpA yA anantA mUrtayas tatra vartante, tAsAm ekayA saha muktasyaikasya mUrtir bhagavatA kriyata iti vaikuNTasya mUrtir iva mUrtir yeSAm ity uktam || Priti Sandarbha 10

"In the spiritual world, the Supreme Lord has unlimited spiritual forms; they all are expansions of Himself illuminating that world. With each one of those forms, the Lord enjoys pastimes with a single individual liberated soul."

Radhe Radhe!

what also would be very interesting:

what does it mean when it is said that those innumerable spiritual forms are "inactive"?
where are they and what´s with them?



Tarunji

I have been wanting to get back to this discussion for some time ...

so,from what I can make out so far;

out of a desire to serve and take part in Krsna's 8 daily pastimes, (by mercy of Krsna and or Guru?) a suitable body to use in this service is revealed to us by guru after he meditates on this (with eleven identifying traits?)... also given are his manjari(?) identity (which includes same 11 traits?) as well as his guru's identity(?) (please correct me if I am misunderstanding the "basics?" and then we meditate during the 8 phases of the day various lilas and serve/take part in them with this siddha deha(?)...

ok, so if this is right...can this also be done with other pastimes of Krsnas' ? let's say for example can we develope/get an identity suitable for being on the battlefield of Kurukshetra as Krsna speaks Bhagavad Gita? or perhaps as one of Krsna's Gopa boyfriends as they are hidden away by Lord Brahma..etc... or is this exclusive only to The Gopis/Manjaris and the 8-fold daily pastimes?

If my question isn't clear, please let me know and I will try better to rephrase it. Soon I will be online at home again and will be able to devote more time to this intriguing discussion....and I am hoping more members give their thoughts on this and or post questions along these lines?

Looking forward to the replies!

Radhe! Radhe!

I ask the same question to the assembled rupanugas, to the administrators, to the wind....

what about the non-manjari gopis (sakhi/nayika types), and what about the wives? Any clues/hints? (in gaudiya vaisnavism or other traditons!)

As far as I understand, the event of getting a spiritual body (siddha-deha) is a separate one, which may or may not occur at the time of diksa according to the guru's prerogative and the disciple's maturity. The idea about the siddha-deha having 11 features (ekAdaza-bhAva) is not set in stone, as different gurus will reveal different numbers of features to their disciples. I remember Madhava saying somewhere that his guru gave him 21 features or something like that.
The siddha-deha is the same as the maJjari-identity. What is happening is that the guru is revealing a suitable maJjari body for the sAdhaka to familiarise with for the purpose of participating in the eightfold-pastimes.


I think the main focus of the Rupanuga tradition is for the attainment of bhavollasa-rati or maJari-bhAva, and the various paramparAs exist to facilitate this goal. To attain the spiritual body of a gopa, for example, one will have to take diksa in a paramparA that facilitates the attainment of sAkhya-rAsa. They do exist somewhere out there in the GauDIya tradition, as I believe it was Shyamananda Pandit who was originally initiated in a sAkhya-rAsa paramparA.

I hope that has answered your questions. Please feel free to discuss more if you want to know more or don't understand anything.

Satyabhama-ji - Madhava spoke a little about nayika-bhAva in this thread. I think I remember him stating somewhere else that the Nimbarka-sampradaya was a school which faciliated nayika-bhava. I have no idea how nayika-bhAva would be attained in that school as I imagine that their methods would be different from the GauDIya's.

About wives, there are some stories about this told in Pandit Ananta das Babaji's commentary to Raga-vartma-candrika. If you like, I'll look it up and get back to you on it later.

On second thought, I shy away from hearing about the Mahishis from Gaudiya sources, for certain reasons. But thank you so much anyway!

ekAnti! ekAnti! Bravissimo!

I am liking you more and more Lalitadas Great poems in the other thread by the way!

Oops, I should have PM'd this I guess... sorry for "cluttering."

What if we decided to wait...is it true that when our heart becomes purified first by hearing and chanting... one's siddha deha would then become known to the practitionar, as professed by....

I am just wondering if this is being dissputed? Or is it just that this is not necessary?

Getting stuck on siddha-deha/pranali, etc., is to miss the forest (of Vraja) for the trees (that catch fire during dry spells), methinks. It is held up as great bogey issue by those who have more-often-than-not missed the whole point of raganuga sadhana. It will never make sense to them until they know something of the kripa available.

Not such a philosophical answer, no doubt. But here is something to consider:



(Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktivinode Thakura.)

Wow. That was a wonderful reply, Braja. You've given me alot to ponder...Thank you.

raganuga means following our passion. According to Visvanatha Cakravarti (Raga vartma Candrika) one does not consider whether one is qualified or not. One does not decide to wait, one does not decide anything.

Thanks Advaita, I think I am seeing what you mean

Quoting from something I wrote to another forum recently, in response to someone who wondered whether they could do without hearing a description of their siddha-deha.

"It is also, in theory, possible to attain Krishna without hearing descriptions of him. Let all that awaken from within, one may say, why should I hear about it from a guru. Or descriptions of Radha and the sakhis, why should I hear all that. It isn't really necessary since the holy name has the power to reveal everything. And why should I hear of my own svarupa? The holy name reveals it whenever is the time for it. That does not stand to reason, as far as I am concerned."

Even if in theory it is possible to attain your siddha-deha without first hearing of it, I fail to see what's the advantage of not hearing it, it seems an awfully backwards approach.

Of course in the end it is the holy Name (read: Krishna) who grants you concrete access to your siddha-deha through grace. However that doesn't mean we should just lay back and wait for the grace. Grace comes according to our desires, and knowledge of one's siddha-deha facilitates the development of particular and deep desires for its swift attainment.

That is a great argument, Madhava! Something we should all remember! It makes me think of the Gita verse 12.5 which says that meditating on the unmanifest is always very painful and difficult!

"In the name of comfort"...

Actually, I am very sick of of this totally lame argument. Wherever I enter a discussion with an ISKCON-devotee, this comes up. All the time. "The Holy Name"... but the subject of of nama-abhasa is not relevant, no no...

For me, this is a question of comfort. Its very easy to "lean back" and wait until the Holy Name as Santa Claus brings the present of "siddha-deha".

Now, after diskha from Srila Ananta das Babaji I clearly see and feel where I as an ex-ISKCON-devotee stand and how MUCH is there to do ACTIVELY, not passively "just hearing".

Its not just "Yeah, chant your sixteen rounds and all will come just fine!" Never.
I chanted 16 rounds for now about 15 years, with short interruptions (whistle, ), but only until now after reading the books of Babaji Mahasaya and especially after the intiation, I realize something substantial growing in my heart.

Just my 2 cents...

One can read tons of books about manjaris and intellectually appreciate the topic, yes, but the abhimAna (self-identification) will not come unless within one the thought awakens, "I wish to be a manjari proper, I wish to serve like Rupa-manjari and others are serving!" Therefore one should hear of the manjaris.

After such a desire awakens, it is only natural to inquire, "Who am I? How shall I best serve, how shall I learn the ways of the maidservants?"

Unless one takes up the practice and becomes acquainted with the realm of manjari-seva in a siddha-form, cultivating a particular self-conception, developing an acute desire for the concrete attainment of siddha-deha stays very remote.