A Vision for the Future - More on Organizing Our Plans

To date we have discussed various projects which include book publication, Chaitanyaite centers and education (Nitai's online tol).

What we need to plan for is how we will get from the current state of affairs, which is essentially everyone trying to make a living in whatever way they can while devoting whatever spare time they may find (in my case not much at all for the past nine months) to the overall effort, to a community wherein we can actually have full time occupations in our various non-profit enterprises.

The groundwork is being laid and with steady progress, as far as the grantha-mandir project and the translation efforts of Nitai, Jagat, Haricharan, Madhava and to a small degree myself on some of the Bengali texts (JD33 is studying with Nitai to prepare himself for taking on some of the Bengali to English translation work). Now we just need to build upon that strong foundation. What I envision is a ministry that people can study for with the materials we are putting together. I use the term 'ministry' because I am more concerned with ministering to our growing congregation than pounding the pavement for new recruits. We can spend all our time in some preaching campaign and get several thousand people chanting harinam on beads, but if the guidance they need is sorely lacking, then we run the risk of them becoming disillusioned over time. I think attracting the people is the easy part. It is keeping them on board that is difficult.

There has been discussion of the guru role, but not much about the role of the ministry function. Our ideal in the rAgAnugA tradition is the guru that maintains the standard of 3 lakhs nama-japa, which is more of a bhajanAnandI mentor role than that of a full time minister.

Ultimately we want to have a number of different full time occupations available for everyone including minister, educator, administration/management (yes, non-profits are still a form of business just like for profits), temple pujari, kirtaniya, kirtan musician, translator/writer, editor, proofreader, graphic artist, illustrator, fine artist, creative director, fund raiser, lecturer, media and public relations specialist, corporate attorney (we need to recognize that we live in a litigious society), software developer, webmaster/web developer, network administrator, as well as several others that are just not coming to mind at the moment. Oh, and last but not least: Guru.

On the education side, the next layer up in our structure from the book publication effort, I think we should aim for all levels from elementary through secondary through four year college and masters and doctorate programs. As far as dormitories, I think those should only be for prep school and college levels. There is no point in having young children living apart from their parents. In fact, there are many compelling reasons against such an approach.

All right. I'm done for now. Please give this some thought and post your feedback here. Working together we can get much more accomplished than we can on our own as individuals.

My 2 cents on the 'Guru' thang;

At this time new students who want diksha should be directed to take shelter of the advanced sadhus that are still available to us alive today, such as Ananta das Babaji Maharaja and other sadhus at Radha Kunda, Braja and Navadvipa that have a long term proven track record of sadhana bhajana.
Programs could be considered that perhaps facilitate western students unable to go to India directly by somehow bringing these 'Living Gurus' to the west for visits and programs, wherein, diksha could possibly be given to those sincere students.

namaskar,

bangli

Thanks for the feedback, Bangli.

There has already been discussion along these lines. Pandita Ananta Das Babaji has told Madhava that he is willing to travel to the West for that purpose.

As far as a track record of practicing bhajan, that is kind of a subjective criterion. It is more of a GM/ISKCON conception that the guru needs to be a perfected soul (siddha) in order to be qualified. Of course, people are going to be judging any prospective diksha guru from whom they might be considering taking initiation, and they will be looking for criteria to assist them in that process. We will need to step up to the plate to provide them with some guidelines to follow, and those are already in place within the rAgAnugA tradition. One thing also to consider is that diksha guru is not a traditional role for a renunciate such as a babaji that has taken bekh (vesh), and devolves upon the senior married members of the community, both men and women. In my opinion (for what it's worth), people should not be pointed only in the direction of the renunciates in India, as there are many fully qualified married gurus to choose from. They can be found both in Braj and Nabadwip as well as throughout West Bengal, Orissa, Manipur, Assam and Bangladesh, at least as far as those in traditional Chaitanyaite lines. Shrivatsa Goswami in the line of Gopala Bhatta Goswami is one that already has done several tours to Europe and North America and has given diksha to people on those occasions. Not only is he duly qualified on the bhakti side, he is a recognized scholar in the academic community as well with a PhD from BHU.

"It is more of a GM/ISKCON conception that the guru needs to be a perfected soul (siddha) in order to be qualified."

I never said 'perfected soul'' or need to be a 'siddha' ..but I do think it is imperative that a 'Guru' be strong in his or her bhajana and also have strong 'Faith' in the tradition itself.
Knowing sanskrit and being capable of translation is not enough in itself to being 'Guru'.

As as far as I am concerned most people would want there Guruji to have some actual self/God-realization, not just being able to fullfill requirements of a number of rounds etc.

namsakar,

bangli

I know what you meant, Bangli, but not everyone here is necessarily on the same page as us in these discussions. Many of them may still be putting a lot of weight on things that are basically extraneous, such as mastery of Sanskrit grammar or ability as an orator, when it comes to the criteria for choosing a diksha guru. Knowledge of the key texts is important, although being able to quote a zillion slokas I don't consider to be so important, as long as a guru can at least quote a healthy number of the important ones to demonstrate a level of competency in the underlying philosophy and theology, and that is particularly important for a siksa guru (one in an instruction role), which may or may not be the same person as the diksha guru.

Guru is just one of many occupations that need to be created. Its just more inherently problematic than the others. I think, although I can't say for sure, that siddhas are extremely rare, but there are perhaps many much more advanced on the path of rAga-marga than ourselves that can serve us well in the role of preceptor and initiator - so yes, I agree that people have a justified expectation that their guru has at the very least achieved some advanced stage on that path short of being fully immersed in prema all of the time.

Dear Bangliji,

My first concern with would be guru, is that he should be of suitable mentality, second one is that we should understand each other well (I mean language problems) and have the opportunity to correspond freely and as often as there would be a need for that (that's why I think that guru with acquaintance with Internet has big advantage for me personally) and only third one is for actual self/God-realization. It's not need a separate mention, that only person with his own actual self/God realization can evaluate actual self/God realization of potential guru. That's why I'm seeking for a guru from western countries.

Indeed bapu..

namaskar,

bangli

And it goes without saying that a Guru (HE/She) from India or the western countries should have actual diksha in a true Guru-Parampara, this is without question!

namaskar,

bangli

Great news! I will be happy to do any work I'm suitable for in such project. Bad news are that I'm unqualified for all that you mentioned, except maybe network administrator and I'm living far away from US.

I thought the disciple decided who they wanted to be their guru. When the disciple is ready, the guru appears. I found ACBS and LPT through searching for a guru. No one told me they were authorised gurus, and in fact, I was told to stay away from LPT.

Even though Vaisnavism is no longer, strictly speaking, my tradition, I would like to contribute some small funds (the only kind I have) toward book publication. I firmly believe that the path of bhakti is a vital contribution to the world's understanding of the Divine and I know most of these vital books have yet to be translated for mass audiences in the West.

Tapati,

You are cool. I very much followed Asatru before i became a devotee in a temple.

Why thank you. You've given me an excellent opportunity to try out the cute blush smiley.


I don't know much about Asatru but what I've absorbed from science fiction centered around it. You should join in the pagan thread and enlighten us. I hear they prefer to be called heathen rather than pagan.

I am happy to encourage the printing of good books in any way I can.

Yes, heathens...you are absolutely correct. I am unfortunately bit rusty about that belief, as i was connected with Asatru during the period i was in my high school and first Uni(end of 80es,to 1990), and i was a singer in different musical projects which included also a Black Metal band at that time. Whenever i have joined the temple, i left all that behind me, including my long time girlfriend.
Nowadays, i can still(and i am) listening to some music, but i am not so passionate like i used to be before.
My family were(and stayed) devotees, so they did (actually it was my mum mainly) help me make a huge shift from being a Nietzschean, Luciferian, misanthropic, nihilistic satanist and heathen to a person normally and seriously (not fanatically) devoted to Sri Sri Radha Krishna. That was my transformation. It was like Kaspar Hauser, you just wake up and find out yourself somewhere else. And that place is where you actually belong. That is where i am now, and i am totally more than happy about it.
Previously i used to be interested and involved in Santeria/Orishas, Sabbatic Witchcraft (Albion original witchcraft), was also involved with OTO in my teenage years, but all of those groups and paths mentioned, i left them all completely and entirely, but of all i still very much like wisdom of Kabbalah today.
Of all things in the world, i have to admit that i was never attracted to Christianity (except mystical saints and some interesting parts of mythical Orthodox Christianity...), and it was mostly because i was growing up in a family which had jewish and christian roots, but for 35 years they didn't practice their religions, because they were highly positioned in socialistic government of ex-Yugoslavian republic of Croatia, which is today independent democratic republic of Croatia. I did read the Bible, New Testament, Talmud and Koran though, out of interest. I deeply respect all those books, as they give coordinates for certain spiritual paths, but i can't relate at all to any of them.
Today, since some years which are behind me, and from here to eternity, i am following traditional(orthodox) parivar of Gaudiya Vaishnavas, My Gurudeva, and i can say with utmost confidence that i did totally and entirely find myself perfectly fit in that, together with my wife and son, my mum and sis. My brother was also in Iskcon, but he always (since his Gurukula actually) was inspired by Sri Vaisnavism, and that is where he will take initiation in future. Everybody has her/his own path.

I didn't share so much of myself nowhere up until now, but since you are very nice person, i wrote in short about myself, what you will not find in my profile.

Thank you for sharing more about your spiritual journey! I am so happy that you found the right path for you.

Blessed Be--

Tapati

PS any time you want to share details of your previous studies, please enlighten us in the paganism topic. I certainly can't cover the entire scope of paganism.

Thanks for invitation. I will see if i can contribute, because i am out of that lifestyle for years, and i am really not coming back to that kind of life anymore. But certainly, thank you for being so kind.

I think that some people here coming forth with an offer to make donations is excellent as a start, however we need to plan for what type of marketing campaign to devise for our fund raising efforts. As much as we may hate sales, we have to at some point face reality: Without sufficient capital all of our projects are going to remain unrealized dreams. We have a common vision. All we lack at this juncture is a well-formed and carefully thought out strategy.

I have been learning much about marketing campaigns over the past several months in my new career in the financial services sector. Different types of campaigns have varying levels of effectiveness. For example: Cold calling people on the phone that have not been pre-qualified in any way has the worst rate of return. Cold calling or emailing people from a purchased leads list is superior, because they have given responses to survey questions asked of them by the leads vendor. (Of course the overall quality of the leads may vary depending on the quality of the leads vendor.) In general it costs more per lead the more qualified they are. Print ads are more effective still, but they tend to build over time. They will have little pull the first time they are run, but give them a few months or even an entire year and then some momentum builds. Educational seminars are highly effective, as are articles published in periodicals. At the high end are the high-cost mass media campaigns including radio and television, which are out of reach for most on account of the high price tag.

Right now what we are up against in the USA with phone campaigns is the government Do Not Call list, and Canada has a similar program. The loophole for non-profits applies, if they are doing fund-raising for charities. Also with caller ID, which is becoming more ubiquitous over time, screening calls is that much easier.

The program of kirton with prasad is brilliant, because it involves the passing out of free food. Businesses have been using free trial offers and special sales very effectively for years. For example, grocery chains will even sell items below cost just to get shoppers in the store, because they will inevitably spend money on items with high profit margins as they fill up their shopping carts, and that easily absorbs the cost of selling the sale items at a net loss.

Free lectures are also brilliant. People usually expect to pay money for classes, and when they are getting an education free of charge they are fully aware of the tuition they are saving.

Free books are even more brilliant. "We are prohibited from selling these books, but a donation will be greatly appreciated, because we do have printing costs and we also have all of these other projects ongoing." There is no price anywhere on the book, but they know full well what book stores charge for hard cover and soft cover titles. Sure, its great if you can just publish books and they literally fly off the shelves in the bookstores. Its also great if your name is Stephen King! We do not have such a wide audience, at least not yet. Therefore, it is an uphill battle to interest any publishing houses, because they have to be shown the niche with some convincing data. On demand publishing is a plus in our favor, but then again it levels the playing field and now everyone and their brother can deluge the publishers with manuscripts to wade through, and ours is more easily lost in the shuffle. A good publishing agent may or may not make a difference. My niece and her husband are already on their second such agent trying to interest publishers in their fictional novels and screen plays, just trying to stand out in the crowd - what's that saying about a snowball's chance? We're all hoping they get lucky, but ultimately they will probably end up having to make a living some other way, at least for the near term. I personally managed to get one magazine article published on futures trading, but I had a little help from a PR specialist who is close friends with the editor of the magazine. The price I had to pay was embarassing myself at a karaoke bar trying to sing a Pearl Jam and a Doors song, both of which are out of my limited one octave range (not to mention the fact that I have a hard time singing in tune to begin with), in order to make friends with the lady. It was kind of amusing in a way, as my wife kept trying to grab the microphone away from me the whole time. Of course the PR specialist in question managed to butcher a Sinatra song pretty badly herself. Hope she's not in here reading this and guessing my off line identity.

OK then. I will get off my soap box and try to relax for the much awaited three day weekend ahead of me. I probably won't be reading any new posts here until next week, so don't take it personally if I don't respond right away.

As far as a no-call list is concerned you would need to purchase what is called a 'scrubbed list' which means a list of those people who are not against phone or email offerings/solicitations like investors etc.

As you know I have a background in sales, but am not so sure about fundraising with cold calls for such an offering as this.
I guess we could go after the Indian community, however they can be a tough sell.

We just need to give the fund-raising aspect some considerable thought and come up with a presentation/offering that will be attractive to prospective clients.

Indian or Western artists/muscians/actors who are willing to participate could be something to consider with concerts or other events to attract people.

namaskar,

bangli

There was some talk of having Radhapada Das, who is an accomplished kirtaniya and sisya of Sri Ananta Das Babaji, perform at some events.

Something else to consider is the state of the US economy. The director of sales at the brokerage firm I work for commented today on how the whole industry has still not bounced back from 9/11 and how much better things were prior to that date. Some encouraging numbers came out this week in some reports - the consumer confidence index and real estate sales in particular, and hopefully they are indicative of an overall improvement on the horizon - and that has been a long time coming. If people are not doing well financially, they are that less likely to donate to religious causes. That is because they are worried about the future and putting kids through college and saving for retirement (not to mention soaring health care costs) - the whole nine yards.

Salesmanship is key, IMO, when it comes to fund-raising. The better the presentation, the more likely people are to perceive the cause as being worthy of funding. They want to see evidence of integrity as well as how well they and the rest of society are going to benefit from our projects. Those objections need to be met and overcome before they are going to even consider committing any funds.

Please post the updated plan and project status.

We need to keep it moving Ram Das ji....

Pranam
Dasanudas

Dasanudas:

The plan has not yet been formally drafted. At this point in time it only exists as a vision for the future in the minds of us Western adherents of traditional Caitanyaism. A project is a good place to start. However, any project needs not only a formal plan but some capital as well. This morning it occured to me that a good project would be a college campus kirton exhibition tour. The late Visnujana Swami from ISKCON used to have such a program, and I traveled with him for a few months in 1974 and 1975. Of course, we have a different set of songs to sing and a slightly different message to deliver. Srivatsa Goswami of Caitanya Prem Sansthan often gets governments of Europe and North America to sponsor traveling exhibitions of drama troupes from Braj, so it can be done. What we could organize is a small group of kirtoniyas from India and then have a native speaker of English deliver a short lecture prior to serving prasad for free. Free food goes a long way towards winning people over, even in a standard business context. One trading firm that I interviewed with recently told me that if you present a trading seminar you absolutely need to cater it as well. And of course we have a superior cuisine to pass out.