Back to godhead in this lifetime? - questions

ACBVS said we could go back to godhead in this lifetime

Do all Gaudiya traditions agree with this?

Or is this a unique feature of his doctrine?

Well, it certainly is possible. However, a possibility does not imply the fulfillment of the potential. It is a rare soul who attains the stage of bhAva-bhakti, what to speak of prema, during this one birth.

Thank you for that question Suryaz and that swift answer Madhava..

We were all waiting with baited breath on that one I can assure you!

namaskar,

Pratap Bangli

Frankly, I'm counting on this as a promise, not a vague possibility. I don't believe it's all that hard or rare when one considers grace as a main element of the process. Of course there are processes that open us to receive more grace, but I don't believe we need to do it all our selves gradually working our way up the gradated ladder of devotion until we reach the top of bhava bhakti and prema when we can finally jump off into Brajaloka. I'll do my part and let the siddha pranali, Radha and Krishna do the rest. I believe there are ample statements in BG and CC to support this. Remember, this may be just one life, but it is not our first life.

I'm in line right behind Subal on this one, although I can't say for sure whether I'll end up in the Boy's Room or the Girl's Room.

Evidently the last one birth will arrive at one point in time.

Believers in grace, certainly, but how many will reach for it? We do not see all that many reaching for it, despite its being freely available, during their lives. Will it be forced upon them in the end, will they be pushed to take it? If people were that eager to receive the grace, then we would expect to see many bhavuk bhaktas around here and there. However, they seem to be hard to come by, if we judge by the symptoms given in the shastra anyway. I would expect to see the grace before the very final moment, see the living symptoms of the descent of grace before my eyes.

Let's clarify on that going back to godhead a bit. It sounds so vague to me. We are talking about the attainment of svarupa-siddhi and the subsequent descent of prema-bhakti within our hearts. Having attained which, we will take birth in an universe where Sri Radha-Madhava's prakata-lila are unfolding, taking birth from the womb of a Vraja-gopi in a village somewhere near the capital of Vrishabhanu Maharaja. We aren't just "picked up to heaven" or so, our "salvation" is a rather specific destination with a specific course of events preceding it.

I go on record to say I'm ready, willing, and begging to receive as much grace as the Divine Ones are willing to dispense.

The concept of grace has been one I've examined in the past few years, and am reading anything about it I can get my hands on. "Amazing Grace" is my favorite spiritual song.

At times it looks so hard, at times not--
From the outside who knows, who can say ?
Grace sometimes crushes us with pain
and sometimes takes our pains away.

I often wonder if heart disease is intended as a spiritual blessing.

The Srivaishnava tradition calls for absolute surrender, and then placing implicit faith in God that this would be the last birth. This is all that one need do, according to the tradition. Consequently, most people of the previous generation and the generations before that, had no doubts that this would be their last birth! They got intiated(which is a formal way of surrendering) and led a dharmic life centred around God in some holy place.
( Some people associate the faith with a legend according to which the Lord at SriRangam promised Ramanuja that anyone who claims any kind of association with the later would be assured of salvation. Such was his love for Ramanuja)

I am curious to know if there are any such parallel thoughts in Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

I guess I am relying heavily on non-gaudiya sources here. I hope you all won't mind. (We being in the ISKCON-GM section yet! Uy!)

Well, here goes...



Perhaps we cannot sustain that level of intensity for long periods (at least I know I cannot) but the the thing is, if we can only muster up enough desire to ASK the Lord once, then that is enough for Him, and He CAN take care of the rest. If it is up to us, it will take many lifetimes, but with His mercy it can be a quick job, done in this lifetime itself.

One of my favorite verses:

sTithE manasi susvasTE sarIrE sati yO nara:
dhAthusAmyE sTithE smarthA visvaroopam cha mAmajam

tatastham mriyamANam thu kAshtA-pAshANa sannibham
Aham smarAmi Madhbhaktham nayAmi ParamAm gathim

(Varaha carama slokam from Varaha Purana)

The Entire Universe is My body (SarIram). I have neither birth or death . When one performs SaraNAgathy to Me with the firm belief that I am His everlasting support , I think of him, and rush to his side at the time of his death even if he has no control over his senses and remains like a log or stone. I lead him then to My Supreme abode.

-----

"But Satya!" you ask, "Perhaps one can only get the position of a dasa in Vaikuntha by this promise of the Lord!" (ie. those wanting to experience the Lord in other ways in other realms other are out of luck here.) Well, let us have a look at Swamy Desika's Acyutasatakam:

Desika starts by describing the bhakta and the Lord's love for her/him:

You never turn from those devotees, O Acyuta,
whose minds, like moonstone that sweats under shining moonlight,
melt into a flood of tears at the sight of Your face,
whose bodies bristle, their hairs standing on end,
like kadamba trees bristle with buds after a storm.

Then it seems that measuring by this standard the speaker (Desika, but really the person reading the poem) is not even a bhakta at all... in such a fallen state, he cries out to the Lord:

I'm ashamed, O Lord true to Your servants.,
I don't know what to do.
And even if by accident I should come to know what I should do,
I'll do the opposite.
Is it right to abandon me?
....

When, Oh Lord of those who surrender, will You give me
your servant, my eternal lovely body of light?
When will I put on the ornaments of the heighest deity
and cross the Viraja river?

When, O Lord of gods,
will You pull me out of the sea of birth and eath,
cleansing my vision,
making a place for me over Your heart
Like the Kaustubhaa who sits on Your chest,
a mirror for Lakshmi.

When, O Lord of gods-
though I am fit never to return to this world-
will You enjoy me as one of Your blessed associates on this earth
in the divine play of your incarnations,
equal to You if only in pleasure?

There- I've let my desire be known.
Utterly dependant upon You, with these words my essence:
Make them true, O Lord true to Your servants,
my your mass of auspicious powers-
You can do anything You want!

Like a baby monkey running in circles,
eager to leap across the sea
becaue it was born in the same race as Maruti,
I ask You, Acyuta,
whose lotus feet all beings desire,
indulge this, my monkey nature.

"You can do anything You want!" says Desika. "Make me a devotee like that! Play with me like that! Love me like that!" Big demands from such a small creature... yet, the Lord will not refuse one who begs Him like that.

So... beg!

One more verse:

ahamasmyaparaadha chakravartee karune tvam cha guneshu saarvabhaumee
vidushee sthitimeedrasheem svayam maam vrashashailesvara paadasaatkuru tvam (30)

O Dayaa Devi, the emobodiment of the Love and Compassion of Lord Venkatesa! I am the lord of the group of sinners. You are the Queen of the gunas. Make me grasp the Lotus Feet of the Lord of Thirumala Hills!

I might be mistaken, but did not Narada Muni attain His position just by eating some fallen prasadam off the floor, or something like that in His previous life?

If so, just think of what a little endevour would do?


( I was wrong, sort of...Narada (at the age of five) ate left over prasadam that he served to Pure devotees, (not off the floor) which then stoked Him down the path.

Forgive my misquote.

A lot of the material that was quoted from Madhurya Kadambini was related to this topic. Vishwanath pointed out that the Holy Name delivers a person who chants even Namabhasa. So the question was, Does aparadh completely ruin everything for a person who chants. Vishwanath said no, because the Holy Name automatically "adopts" anyone who chants even once, in any way. So the sufferings of a devotee are never like those of an ordinary person, and, says Vishnu to the Vishnudutas, they are never to be subject to the judgment of Yamaraj. In time, even aparadh dissipates like a fever and one's taste for the Holy Name returns. [The implication being--even without recourse to the remedial measures.]

So there is definitely a doctrine of grace in Gaudiya Vaishnavism. It is poorly understood in certain circles, where some form of "works" is seen as the means of attaining Krishna. This is refuted by Vishwanath, just as it was by Luther in Christianity. Only we would say, "justification by bhava alone."

My interpretation of the above material, and based on my own experience, is that our original contact with the Holy Name gives us a taste of our relationship with Krishna, which is often experienced with great intensity, sometimes over a fairly lengthy period of time. Even though the experience is accompanied by little knowledge, it gives a solid samskara that makes us deeply rooted in Krishna. That is why Narada says, "A devotee never falls into material entanglement like others, for he repeatedly remembers the taste of service to Krishna's lotus feet and eventually tries to repeat it again."

This taste is the gift of the Holy Name.

I'm sure you mean at the end of this lifetime. Do Gaudiyas accept jivanmukti or not? I think that they do. Sri Vaisnavas do not. They accept only vi-deha mukti.

Gaudiyas accept a liberated stage in this body, but it is not absolute. In other words, falldown is possible until one is in God's abode. When it becomes impossible to fall, no matter what some people say.

Sri Vaisnavas accept that prapannas are assured by the Lord of moksha at the end of his life, those who do not follow the path of Prapatti but instead follow Bhakti may not attain moksha at the end of this life it may take longer. That is the accepted understanding amongst the Sri Vaisnavas.

The Lord Himself is the means of release. Nothing else is capable of doing this. I'm with Subal on this one. Grace is the key.

==================================================

Thats a raging point of controversy among SriVaishnavas too. The " act of surender" is seen as the means by the Vadagalai sect of Srivaishnavas, whereas the according to the tengalai sect, only the Lord is the means and can still choose to reject a soul because of His Swatantrayam, or absolute independence.
I am still curious to know if there is any stream of thought in Gaudiya Vaishnavism which assures salvation in the desired form at the end of this lifetime itself !

I don't think there are any guarantees provided for this life time. In the long run, however, anyone who falls into the stream will end up in the ocean.

Whether it is true or not, it seems to me that the Sri Vaisnavas at least have a positive attitude about being saved at the end of this lifetime. This is needed. ACBVS also generally told his followers like this. If you do this you are assured, etc. No one wants to be part of a process that says "maybe you will and maybe you won't" we all want a sure thing. I don't see the advantage to thinking that one will not be saved. One should expect the mercy of the Lord, but not demand it. And one should regret not taking to His service sooner and wasting one's time in this and previous lifetimes.

I guess the lord reciprocates according to the wishes of the devotee. Bhakti and love for a youthful Krishna is exciting and more attractive than the idea of service/surrender at the feet of the Lord of all that be !
But in the end, the latter approach is secure since the Lord then takes on the role of a mother, ignores all the sins (according to the Tengalai sect, it actually pleases Him as a sport, like a mother who is not disgusted with a baby who relieves itself on her!) , and accepts the devotee lovingly.
The former one is nonetheless enjoyable, since the means is in itself the Goal )
But, salvation is not assured at the end of a single lifetime, for the demands of parakiya rasa are much more stringent.

Thanks for the reference to sabhogya hetuka krpa. I don't think that Gaudiyas go this far. I certainly hope that the Lord enjoys all my sins because there are many of them for Him to enjoy. The Tengalai analogy is that the Lord is like the mother cat who simply picks up the kitten with it's mouth. The kitten does nothing. The Vadakalai analogy is that of a mother monkey that the baby monkey must cling to by his own efforts. If I have to rely on my own efforts to make it to moksha I am sure it's not going to happen.

Well, I don't take it like that. My position is that we're already liberated. The road to the eternal is just that--eternal. So this life, next life, it's no difference. Our connection to Krishna is there. We are secure.

I believe here we return to the Gaudiya-ideal of renouncing aspiration for mukti, being only concerned with bhagavat-seva. Hence, there is little concern over "being saved" or taking a new birth. Both options are just fine.


Svarga, naraka or apavarga (mukti) -- they are indifferent to the situation. Hence, their inspiration is not derived of a hope for a reward of sorts at the end of the journey, but rather of an ever-existing relationship of servitude with their iSTa-deva. That is seen as the sumtotal of all rewards one may get.


That sums up the emphasis of the Gaudiyas, I believe. The seva is at the forefront of their awareness and longing, and wherever that seva may be done, there they rejoice.

That really opens up a pandora's box now Thats of course the ideal for the srivaishnvas too.
The famous Tirupavai Pasuram " sitRanj siRukAlE" by Andal says as much.

sitRanj siRukAlE vandhu unnai sEviththu, un
potRAamarai adiyE pOtRum poruL kELAi
petRam mEiththu uNNum kulaththil piRandha nee
kutRavEl engaLaik koLLAmaRp pOgAthu
itRaippaRai koLvA endRukAN gOvindhA
etRaikkum EzhEzh piRavikkum, undRannOdu
utROmE yAvOm unakkE nAmAt seivOm
matRai nam kAmangaL mAtRElO rempAvAy.


Please refer http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/alvars/andal/ti...ai/verse29.html
for the translation.

Moksha is not seen as a reward at the end. Rather, its a state which makes bhakti far more easier, and natural for a jeeva. Sri Vaishnava Acharyas have been extremely careful in differentiating betwen bhakti marga and bhakti.
Bhakti marga is explained as a prerogative of a few chosen souls who have limitless mercy of the Lord. These souls come down to teach us the right way, and do not take birth because of their karmas, but because of the lord's limitless mercy.
So bhakti marga as prescribed in the Gita and and as followed by Iskcon and Gaudiya Vaishnavas(correct me if i am wrong here), is extremely difficult to practice and is not natural for the jeeva which has truckloads of karma from its past births. It is often impossible for mortals to live upto the high standards of bhakti marga.

Thats a reason why most people leave Iskcon too, since they find the rules, extremely stringent, so much that it affects their spiritual progress. This is always a problem with Bhakti. You tend to fall down and hurt yourself a lot more. Theoretically, thats part of the game and one is not supposed to be affected by all that , but it does affect most of us.

And I am sure, everyone will agree, that wether situated in the path of bhakti marga or otherwise, life is definitely not pleasant in the material world When the prospect of Moksha at the end of a single life time presents itself, why shun away ? Of course, krishna saves the a bhakta in the bhakti marga eventually. But in the end, everybody reaches Krishna anyway, right ?

What is the exact meaning of 10.2.33? Does it applicable here?

The dynamic is that of Krishna's appearing and disappearing in the rasa dance.

Who says the two are separate? Loving Krishna is kaimkaryam for a Lord who begs to be loved... I'm pretty sure bhagavad anubhavam is part of the package (that is something both Lord and prapanna need and desire).



True.



That may be the case, but personally in my current condition I feel I am sinning so much and thus may be hurting Him. I am certain that even if it does not hurt Him, it does hurt those He loves, or at the very least hurts me, who would want to do better for Him. Thus, I feel if I can attain proximity to Him, whether it be in the world beyond or in Japan or at the supermarket, that for me would be "liberation" as such... or even just proximity to His most passionate bhaktas would be a kind of moksha for me. Because then there is the chance that some of that passion for Him would rub off on me... till then I am just floating... that is why dayaa devi (Lord's compassion) is so attractive... She just chases you and makes you melt into the Lord's all-consuming love... that is what I need- a proactive Srinivasa that will (by force if necessary) make me over into a "real" bhakta.


a relevant verse:

If my Lord, with His red coral mouth
and red lotus eyes,
who once swallowed up and spat out
this great wide earth
grants me the grace
to run about here in worship-
hands filled with flowers for the offering
mind filled with His body, ravishing my senses
mouth swelling and boiling over with praises-
what's wrong if I remain here,
roaming this place?

~Nammalvar

O Dayaa Devi! I'm foremost among the sinners. You are searching for others who have committed far fewer sins. Their sins do not provide adequate food for you. With inadequate nourishment like this, you, who has married the husband of Lakshmi, survive?

O Compassion of Madhusudhana! Before my waning senses lose their power, before my breathing loses its ease, before my body loses its ability to move about freely, I must reach the Tirumala Hills with the crashing waterfalls and live there...

One more idea here...



I think that's why it's always good to read about and remember His promises (esp. in carama slokams). I should also mention here (again), that I see Bhudevi as being like an advocate/ lawyer. I seem to remember in Nacchiyar Tirumoli She (Andal) making some rather bold statements to the Lord like "Oh, You have so much fun breaking women's hearts- if you are so hard-hearted, how come you are lovingly called names like Karunaa Sindhu? You should therefore act according to Your nature and come and embrace me NOW before I give up my life in anguish!"

What a woman!

Maaran:

I think you are perhaps being too reductionist in your assessment of people's motivation for abandoning ISKCON and Gaudiya Math. Yes, there may have been some element of the rules being too confining for many of them, but there are dozens of other factors to consider as well. Not all of them just left full time life in the temples and joined the congregation out in the community at large. That would be the natural progression for those who still were believers in the cause yet unable to follow all of the rules. A sexual identity for one thing is a biological imperative for 99.9999999999999999% of the people, or perhaps for 100% of them with the rare few able to actually overcome such urges.

The late George Harrison admitted in a television interview with Johnny Carson in 1971 that he was unable to quit smoking cigarettes. Then again, he never really joined ISKCON, except as a life-member after making his donations. He may have visited their temples on occasion, but he for the most part kept them at arms length. He obviously endorsed harinam, but not that particular organization. Sure, he had a couple ISKCON people that he kept in contact with, but that was only maybe two or three of them. He had ties with a number of Hindu sects including Vaishnavas, Saivaites, Saktas and yogis.

Mina:

I don't understand. You say there are other reasons for people leaving gaudiya Vaishnavism. But all the other reasons(sexual urges, cigarretes) you give are related to the prohibitory rules and people not being able to follow them.

George Harrison is obviously a different case since he was not a vaishnavite or a wannabe vaishnavite. Correct me if I am wrong here. All my statements hold strictly with respect to people who want to be vaishnavites and follow the bhakti marga, but can't follow the path because of strict rules.
( I am also not referring to people leaving iskcon because of a bad experience with a bogus guru.)

Yes. Not many avail themselves of the divine grace. But for those who do, it is poured out unlimitedly. Of course it is never forced upon anyone. Yes, one would expect to see some signs of grace received during the person's life, however, the person doesn't have to have outwardly attained the highest levels of devotion. We do our part and count on grace to make up for our short comings.

I certainly don't look forward to being born in the womb of a Vraja-gopi. I see it more as making a quantum leap. We leave this body and are immediately in Vraja in our fully developed spiritual body. We leave the realm of time and space and enter a world where there is no birth, death, disease or old age. We are developing our siddha deha now, in this lifetime. With Krishna, all things are possible.

I find your reasoning very linear, rule bound and dependent on our personal abilities which are quite limited while Radha's grace is unlimited. On my own, I am quite helpless. By the grace of Sri Sri Radha Krishna, Lalita Devi, Rupa Manjari and others, all things are possible.

As Jagat said, we are already liberated, and those of us who have recieved siddha pranali are already engaging in the leela to whatever degree we are able in our sadhana. We do so as the adolescent manjaris we are. That is real on a spiritual level. Why should we then have to be born from a womb as in the material world?

The pleasures of being born in Vraja, growing up, discovering Krishna is there in our midst, falling in love with him, falling in love with Radha, being attracted by his flute on the first autumn night. I don't want to miss it personally.

I don't know about everybody else, but my idea was that Dayaa Devi has more than one destination available on Her bus route. ie. think of it as "bhava bhakti in this lifetime..." or what have you.

Maaran: First of all I don't equate leaving GM/ISKCON with abandoning Chaitanyaism. They may or may not have also abandoned that belief when they abandoned that particular institution.

As far as George Harrison is concerned, many people might take offense at your dismissal of him as a non-Vaishnava. Clearly he maintained his devotion to harinam until the very end. At a recent tribute concert to him that aired on PBS, his musician friends such as Eric Clapton and Paul McCartney sang the maha mantra and it was heard by millions. They would not have been doing that had it not been something that George believed in very strongly. Plus I think those people knew him much better than his couple of ISKCON contacts knew him.

There are those many other factors I alluded to beyond the prohibitions and strict regimen of rising early and attending services and lectures, such as personality conflicts, political scandals, horrendous behavior of some leaders, bizarre views on modern science, etc. etc.

Mina : I was wrong about George Harrison then. I apologise if that hurts anybody's sentiments here. I didn't mean to.
Secondly, when I equated Iskcon and Chaitanyism, I did so based on the fact that both follow bhakti marga. And I just wanted to cite examples of people leaving either one of them, ONLY because of an inability in following the strict rules of bhakti marga.
I never intended to mean that people leave Iskcon only because of that. I am sorry if that wasn't so explicit.

pranam to all,
jay nitai,

Sorry for being late in the discussion. If this is not already a dead topic I want to add something here ( Though by no means I can claim to be a person who has any rights to say here, hope gaur hari will do mercy on me).

Krishna premi does not want any salvation. Only he wants to test the sweetness of madhurya of radha- krisha by performing seva all the time.

He does not want to get the mukti/salvation , his all births will be dedicated to krishna prema. He wants to enjoy krishna , love krishna , touch krishna , smell krishna.

If he gets salvation then how would he able to do the seva?

And for krishna's happiness he is willing to accept life at hell. Do you remember the braj gopi wanted to give their charanamrita to krishna for driking as krishna wanted that , as krishna was acting as if he was sick and by only drinking the braj gopis chranamrita he will be able to heal. So by knowing all those facts that it is certain for them to go to hell , braj gopi did not reject krishna's plea. Because for them krishna chandra is very personal, they will do everything for krishna's pleasure.

So gadiya's does not accept salvation, they do not want to get that, if krishna wishes to give slavation to them they will pray the association of great devotee's next birth to ensure they will to get association of krishanachandra through by his devotees.

On the other side krisnachandra / gaur hariu also enjoys the association of their devotees. In the absense of their dearest devotee how they can enjoy? So gaudiyas wants to take rebirth again and again only to make sure he is serving his krishna.


Jay Nitai , Jay Gaurhari

Dasanudas

"Salvation" in Sri Vaishnavism does ensure one gets to do the eternal seva of the Lord in Vaikuntha. The devotee will be able to do nitya kaimkaryam in total bliss to the Lord, and yes also enjoy, love, touch and smell Him...

Then again, the association of devotees (which is difficult to obtain!) and ultimately to serve Krishna personally is something a "premi devotee" would also desire. How can we achieve these things without the Lord's grace? If it is by our own merit or by our own *progress in devotion* even, I don't think I am going to make it... I need grace!

I personally would consider it "salvation" if I were able to live in the holy dham (Tirupati, say) and serve the Lord day in and day out. But to do that I need the passion to serve Him with all the love that He needs. How can we love the Lord as He needs to be loved? Through His grace!

I too would not be willing to sacrifice the madhurya aspect. If that can be found with Vaikunthanatha, I am ok with that (Tirupati is supposed to be "Vaikuntha" on earth, but the usual Gaudiya rules of what can and cannot be felt for "Narayana" do not seem to apply, judging from the poetry of people like Andal, Annamayya, Namalvar, others- ok, He is called "Govinda" so perhaps that is a bit telling- who is this Venkata Nivasa Govinda? ) ... if not, then I request dayaa devi/ Bhu devi to kindly take me where Krishna needs me to be. For me, the relationship with Sri Hari is of utmost importance. Any dham will do.

Read this description of Vaikuntha from Sri Vaishnava sources here

(excerpt)

The beautiful, sensitive face of the Perumal reflects its joy on seeing the devotee. The face itself looks tender like a lotus which is about to blossom. His eyes also are like freshly blossomed lotus flowers (ambuja charulochanm). His raised eyebrows look like a tender creeper and it reflects His concern for the devotees. His lips are beautiful and are sporting a bewitching smile (suchi smitham). His cheeks are also tender. His nose is sharp and long (unnasam). His conch - like neck is slim. The neck looks more beautiful with the locks of flowing curly hair and His ear drops extending upto His shoulders.

His hands are so tender that one can see the impression of the blue lillies worn by Thayar on Her ears, and of Her ear rings and braids of hair caused when Thayar embraced Perumal with happiness for having extended His rakshaka swabhava i.e. umbrella of protection towards Her children (His devotees). The Lord has four arms which look like the branches of a kalpaka vruksha. His hands reach down upto the knees which is the lakshana of a Paramapurusha. His pink palms have beautiful lines (divyarekha alankruta). His fingers are adorned with valuable rings (divya anguliyaka virajitham). His Thiruvadi resembles freshly blossomed lotuses. (Tatkshana unmilitapundarika sadrusa charana yugalam).


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Srimati Andal giving a guided tour of Ranganatha's place to Her girlfriends