salagram-silas -

Haribol. I was wondering if anyone here had any salagram-silas that they are parting with and needed to be served.
I am qualified and would appreciate the opportunity and the honor to offer such service. Thank you.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das

Interesting statement. Usually devotees insist that they are "not qualified" rather than professing that they "are qualified". It begs the question, "what do you mean by that?"

Sorry, I don't play those word games like some devotees do. I am not a lower then a dog. I know my worth. Self-loathing has never been a quality of mine. I don't wear that color well. I recognize and acknowledge my value and what I can contribute.
What I meant by qualified is that I am trained in deity worship so anyone who entrusts the care of their salagrama-sila to me can be assured that it will be worshiped properly. I'm not sure what you were trying to imply but I can assure you that my intentions were pure.
But, I must now withdraw my offer as I have acquired two salagrama-silas from one of the devotees here, Dwarka-sila and Ananta-sila.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das

Congratulations on the new additions to your family.

So you got some Silas from Ganesa das. My question is do you know Purusha Sukta? By the way a Dvaraka sila is not a Salagrama. So do you mean that you have one Dvaraka sila and one Salagrama referred to as Ananta? Since you are "trained" what will be your prayogam.

Purusha Suktam

Yes, that is exactly what I meant and you know it. I was condensing to save time. Don't do this, your acting very childish and I'm not going to be pulled into an arguement by you, period. I have better things to do then fighting with vaisnavas. Find someone else to play this game with becasue this is my last reply to you.
Take care and God bless.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das

Oh, and by the way, yes, I am very aware that Dvaraka sila is not a Salagrama, hense the topic of this thread "SALAGRAMA-SILA", referring to BOTH salagramas and silas.

Gopala Priya, I wonder if you know who Keshava is? If I were you, I would keenly listen what he has to advice you in the matter of archan.

With qualification, there is more to it than knowing the procedures, I would think. The devotees generally think of themselves as unfit due to their making varieties of aparadhas in the course of worship despite knowing the procedures of archan. Of course, if you have foregone that problem, then my dandavats to you.

That aside, I am not so sure if mastery of the ISKCON collection of deity worship tips amounts for a true mastery of archan. There are lots of odd things they do in ISKCON in the matter of archan. But that would be a subject for a whole another thread.

And maybe if we can get Keshava to stop making fun of other devotees (I joke! I joke!), he could write something up on this? Personally I love hearing Keshava's insights on archan, and I would love to see him undertake something like this.

So, Keshava, pretty please?

I'm ISKCON and I am trained in the ISKCON tradition. Other techniques really don't interest me as they really aren't beneficial for my sadhana. Why would a Catholic priest inquire of a Episcopal priest on how to conduct the mass?

As far as I'm concerned, Prabhupada gave us the "how to" and those are the guidelines that I intend to keep. Bhaktivedanta Swami's instructions are perfect in every way.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das

Sorry if you took my questions the wrong way. I applogize to you if you think my questions to be impertinent. I also was trained in ISKCON and as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada's and a member of ISKCON for many years I can assure you that there are many, many different ISKCON traditions. When I asked you what prayoga you follow, it was a sincere attempt to understand exactly what ISKCON tradition you follow.



Not knowing what your technique is, I am unable to comment on this. What other techniques are you referring to? Those of other sampradayas or of your own, or other techniques within ISKCON? As I have said there are different techniques even within ISKCON. Personally I have seen many puja prayogas both within and without ISKCON and I can say truthfully that not one of them is EXACTLY the same. However details are not so important. As Srila Prabhupada Himself indicated devotion coupled with cleanliness, punctuality and regularity are more important than technique. Of course there is nothing wrong with having both.



I am not disputing what you say. However Srila Prabhupada didn't actually give us a Salagrama puja prayoga. He gave us general instructions on deity worship along with more specifics in his books. Then there was an early publication from LA temple and later the Perfection of Deity Worship in 1975. Then he ordered Pradyumna, then Nitai, then Jayasacinandana and Jayatirtha to publish the Arcana Paddhati in 1977. Then the GBC wanted that rewritten a few years later (mostly because of it's association with Jayatirtha who only edited it) and the committee for doing this included me by the way. Then finally they came out with the Pancaratra Pradipa and now that is again being rewritten. So you can see why I ask you the question. That is a short history of deity worship in ISKCON. If you subcribe to the PAMHO Deity Conference you would know that I take a very active role in answering deity worship questions to ISKCON deovtees from all around the world. You might remember that I performed the groundbreaking ceremonies for your temple there in Alachua many years ago.

By the way I was personally present in Melbourne when Srila Prabhupada ordered us all to learn Purusha Sukta. Just ask Ganesa das the devotee who gave you the silas. He and I correspond frequently about deity worship. So my question as to whether you know Purusha Sukta is based upon my seeing that Srila Prabhupada wanted us to know it. Read his Caitanya Caritamrta which he was translating at the time. In it he gives lots of instructions on deity worship including about chanting Purusha Sukta. Brahma Samhita was also recommended to be chanted especially during bathing. But I believe you will find that for sila worship the Arcana Paddhati gives a prayoga including Purusha Sukta verses with each upacara. Just for your information Purusha Sukta for the worship of Salagrama is not just an ISKCON tradition but it is the tradition of all other Vaisnavas as well.

If you ask Ganesa das he can provide you with copies and tapes of these mantras which I have provided to him. Unless you already have them.

Thanks to Satyabhama for adding the link to Purusha Sukta. However it is in devanagari script which I am not sure Gopalpriyaji reads. Maybe he does, but incase he does not, he can get the transliteration from Ganesa das (or directly from me if he prefers). Or from the BBT/ISKCON publication Arcana Paddhati or Pancaratra Pradipa if he is worried about other sources.

Oh, by the way, if someone starts a topic on Salagramas in the Miscellaneous Devotional Topics area, then I don't know why I should automatically think that it refers only to the worship of Salagrama in ISKCON.

Perhaps if you want to discuss only the topic in relation to ISKCON you could start it in the ISKCON/GM forum in future. Just a friendly suggestion, not meant as a criticism.

I don't think his initial post had ISKCON or GM issues in mind. He was probably responding a little defensively to your question. However, it occurs to me that few of those outside ISKCON, at least those in traditional raga-marga lines, would worship shalagrama-shilas, since He's generally seen as a vaidhi-marga Deity. I also wonder why someone so adamant about the pre-eminence of ISKCON's standard would spend much time here. They do usually end up getting upset with the majority of the members, who have little direct interest in ISKCON. Even the IGM area is likely to be uncomfortable for staunch ISKCON members from time to time.

And I don't think that anyone aware of the breadth of standards among those associated with ISKCON should take any offense at Keshava's question. I would hazard a guess that it might be very difficult to count the number of ISKCON "traditions" around. I remember that, when I last visited Honolulu, Mukunda Datta invited me to bring my Thakurajis up to the room where he was staying for morning puja. His process was different from mine--more elaborate, and much more chanting of mantras and nice stotrams, etc. And Turiya das' process is more elaborate, with more mantras and mudras. (Mine is drawn largely from the process I heard described on tapes with Vishwambhar Goswami and on the process used for Giri-Govardahana's worship at ISKCON San Diego, which I performed for nine years, which in turn was most likely prescribed by Padmanabha Goswami. And I need to keep my process simple so I can get out of the house early. )

I agree with you. However as both you and I pointed out, one should be aware of what one is doing when posting to this forum.



Right.



Although Salagrama silas are traditionally identified with Visnu as distinct from Krsna, and I do agree with you that many Gaudiyas do worship Govardhana Silas rather than Salagramas, there are still many Gaudiya Vaisnavas that worship Salagrama. Visvambhara Goswami of Radha Raman for example. It seems that most Brahmin Vaisnavas worship Salagrama.



Yes, I agree with you. I think that there needs to be a specific disclaimer for ISKCON/GM people to make sure that any thin-skinned types realise what they are getting into.



Right, this was my point exactly. I was trying to point out that one may think that one knows the one and only way to do things but in fact if one were a little more knowledgable one would have to re-evaluate that idea.



Yes, I also have to shorten my puja from what I would do if I had more time. Interesting that you have a tape of Visvambhara Goswami doing puja. I have watched him several times and had him explain it to me, and I have tapes of conversations but not of the actual puja.

Keshava prabhu, it seems that the fault is mine. I might have jumped the gun a bit and been a little too defensive. I didn't know who you were at the time and from the few inquiries that I made about you here, I now know who you are and I offer my obeisances and apologize for my tone and crassness. I take offense to things very easily and have a habit of getting very defensive. I suffer from at times from ego and pride issues, I have a tendency to over-inflate both, which is usually the cause of most of my troubles and has probably been the most destructive elements to me my entire life, but these are personal issues that I am working on, so please excuse me.
I have the copies, recordings and translations that you speak of and I'm looking forward to putting them into practice. Thank you for your help and insight thus far. I really do appreciate it. Thank you.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das

Yes, I'm aware that many Gaudiyas worship Salagrama, and when I was offered this one as a gift by ISKCON San Diego's head pujari (to sort of keep me somewhat peaceful, since he could see that I yearned for a Govardhana-shila to worship at home), I did some checking around first to see if I could worhsipHim as Krishna, rather than as Narayana.



I thought there was, somewhere.



The tapes I have are of Vishvambhar Goswami explaining the process to some ISKCON devotees. I had the good fortune of meeting him and spent a couple of hours with him when he visited Bhaktivedanta Village in the '80s. He gave me a picture of Gaura-Nitai and assured me that we would get all Their blessings if we kept it nicely in our home. (It's still in our temple room.) But, since this was years before I ever contemplated worshiping Giriraja or Salagrama, I didn't have the opportunity to ask him about these things.

So what was your conclusion? (And based on what?)

Visvambhara Goswami had a very nice way of doing his puja basically he would draw a "klim" bija in Sanskrit in chandana in the snana patra and perform puja of the different personalities on the different parts of it. His Salagrama (worshiped as Krishna) was placed on and worshiped on the "K", Radha was worshiped on the "L", Mahaprabhu on the "I" and the Guru on the "M" (Anusvara). After offering the bath and associated upacaras he would offer dhupa dipa etc to the Sila on his throne, along with his picture of Mahaprabhu (the one which has a dancing skirt made from an actual piece of Mahaprabhus cloth from the Gambhira). Then he would chant japa (I don't know how much), then chant the Visnorastavimsati Nama Stotram (a good substitute for Visnu Sahasranama) to free one from offenses (seva aparadha) and then lastly recite on chapter of the 10th canto Bhagavatam. (Repeating the whole 10th canto in approx 3 months/90 days)

I do not remember him chanting or using Purusha Sukta. But this would not be unusual as many Gaudiyas do not use it as they prefer to worship in the same way as they worship Lord Krishna rather than Narayana. He used astadasakshara (gopal) mantra for the mula mantra.

I have a small booklet that he printed in Bengali Lipi (Sanskrit Bhasya) for his disciples. It is basically an Ahnikam giving the guruparampara back to Gopinatha Pujari (disciple of Gopal Bhatta) and mantras for getting up, putting on Tilaka, etc. It may give a short puja of the guru as I remember but if you are interested I could look for it and let you know more details.

You seem to be feted here by many but that is not pertinent to me Keshava. On the question of being "aware", my impression is that your focus on Gopalapriya's "I am qualified" assertion outside the tenor of the context in which the assertion occurred was a little blunt. Reading his whole statement it is clear that he has a humble approach to the worship. You need to be aware of your bluntness.

I realise that I am being blunt here and it may be natural for you to respond defensively to this post. I do not mind that but I hope that any credentials that I have will not be promoted by anyone as a way to offset this bluntness on my part or to downgrade your defensiveness.

As far as being blunt is concerned, I agree it looks like that. However I did appologise so I hope that will suffice.

The most beautiful thing about your apology is that Gopalapriya accepted it.

Keshava prabhu, it seems that the fault is mine. I might have jumped the gun a bit and been a little too defensive. I didn't know who you were at the time and from the few inquiries that I made about you here, I now know who you are and I offer my obeisances and apologize for my tone and crassness. I take offense to things very easily and have a habit of getting very defensive. I suffer from ego and pride issues, I have a tendency to over-inflate both, which is usually the cause of most of my troubles and has probably been the most destructive elements to me my entire life, but these are personal issues that I am working on, so please excuse me.
I have the copies, recordings and translations that you speak of and I'm looking forward to putting them into practice. Thank you for your help and insight with this. I appreciate it.

Hare Krsna.
-Gopalapriya das