A disciple cannot fall down. -

I don't really agree with this statement by Narayan Maharaj.

QUOTE(on VNN)

A disciple cannot fall down. If one falls down, he was not a real disciple and he has not actually taken initiation. Initiation is a matter of heart and mood. It is not simply the whispering of a mantra into an ear.

What is this narrow conception all about?

Everybody is on one path (mama vartmAnuvartante). Our relationship is with God. In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution. Api cet suduracaro. Dhavan nimilya va netre na patet na skhaled iha.

Guru comes in many forms, but so-called falldown is either an illusion or a temporary condition. What's with these nasty gurus who so easily denounce their disciples? Trying to absolve themselves? Give your disciples a hug and wish them well, for God's sake.

Krishna does not reject so easily. He says, "Say 'I am yours' just once and I will protect you FOREVER."

Oh yeah, we did some hugging at the East Coast Gathering, forgot to mention. (Boys hugged girls, too, tisk tisk.)

Jagat, I actually agree with the idea but probably not strictly in terms of the context of its presentation. There are two aspects of bhakti consequential on initiation - the optional and the intractable. The optional is the practices, lifestyle and vows undertaken. The intractable is the Grace that opens us to our innate sacred passion, our rasa - a tad of which we experience at a genuine initiation.

One can fall away from certain practices and lifestyles and one can give up on certain vows and attract the label of fall down. However a person who has experienced sacred passion can never fall from it. The person may choose to live a lifestyle not commensurate with it and suffer much on account of this. Or the person may choose a path that warmly hosts the sacred passion. One thing is certain: the sacred passion will not go away and one cannot rise above it nor fall from it.

What is salient for our time and place, a time when many cultures can live in the one street and many ages can transpire in a single day - what is salient is a free and informed consideration of which path best hosts this sacred passion for each of us. Need it be practices and lifestyles reflective of one culture alone? or a mix? or a total revamp? Need the selection of an optional be forever? What would Jesus have said?

Someone PM'd me the following:

QUOTE

I forwarded your comment about NM to one of his disciples who is a friend of mine and they say NM never rejects any disciple and he is one of the most affectionate and liberal minded people you will ever meet anywhere. He understands perfectly well that struggling sadhaks will meet with difficulty on the path. His comment was perhaps to wake people up to the urgency of bhakti. Don't take things so literally.

I am glad to hear it. But what's the point of rhetoric if you don't mean it.

To Talasiga: I agree pretty much, though I might want to put a bit of a finer point on it. Initiation can be undertaken under false pretenses.

QUOTE(Jagat @ Nov 17 2004, 12:13 PM)

Someone PM'd me the following:

QUOTE

I forwarded your comment about NM to one of his disciples who is a friend of mine and they say NM never rejects any disciple and he is one of the most affectionate and liberal minded people you will ever meet anywhere. He understands perfectly well that struggling sadhaks will meet with difficulty on the path. His comment was perhaps to wake people up to the urgency of bhakti. Don't take things so literally.

I am glad to hear it. But what's the point of rhetoric if you don't mean it.

Well, he was pretty persistent in that I should no longer waste my time trying to contact the group, as they would not reply to me again. I do not know if he would prefer to see this as "teaching from a distance".

I personally took the occasion as mutual rejection.

QUOTE(Jagat @ Nov 17 2004, 11:13 AM)

.......To Talasiga: I agree pretty much, though I might want to put a bit of a finer point on it. Initiation can be undertaken under false pretenses.

When I qualify initiation with the adjective "genuine" I do not mean to imply an appraisal of genuineness in terms of location, tradition, personas and so on. The appraisal has an experiential focus. Someone who has never enjoyed humour in "real life" may experience it in a movie and laugh for the first time. The "unreality" of the stimulus does not invalidate the authenticity and value of the experience.

QUOTE

Krishna does not reject so easily. He says, "Say 'I am yours' just once and I will protect you FOREVER."