The Wasting Books -topic -

The topic called "Wasting Books?" has been moved away from the public section, as many members have reported being pretty disenchanted with its contents. Those of you who have participated have been given acccess to the "Retired Threads" section, where you'll find a subcategory called "Waiting for Retirement", where you can conclude the debate, after which the thread will retire.

If you can't see the Retired section at the bottom of the forums, and you really really want to follow up on it, then please PM me and I'll add you in.

Dear Madhava,

I think it is an unfortunate choice to move the thread - making it unavaible to many - just as the cream of refinement in the form of clarification and real learning is taking place.

Some members were pretty disheartened about it for a number of reasons, and other mods seemed to agree about the idea of moving it (which was suggested to me), so that's why it got moved.

What to do? Any nourishable fruit will become apparent either way - that is the good news. Thanks Madhava.

What I did not like about the thread being moved was that it addressed an imporant aspect of the reality of being a Western vaishnava. It also seems to imply that "you can discuss here the color of your sari that you wear in lila smaran, but please do not show any undesirable emotions, let alone point to the evident in clear words."

Anyone who wishes may go and read & participate there all they like, the thread is still around and available.

Generally topics in which fellow people are being called jerks and jackasses get closed, or such posts get deleted. However since pretty much all the participants in the thread were more or less "senior members" at GD, we let that pass to not irritate any of them. Apparently some other members, aspiring Gaudiyas and all that, were pretty dismayed by some of it.

Since I was one of the complaintants, let me stick my neck out here a bit & comment on what I did not like about the thread.

My complaint was not with the initial subject matter of the thread. Whether I agree or disagree, I think this group should be able to have a coherent conversation on the proposed vaisnava-aparadha committed by Bhaktivedanta Swami & his followers. Point and counterpoint could easily flow in this conversation without (hopefully) insulting anyone.

What I objected to was at the end of the thread. It degenerated in to a 'who's sadhana is bigger/better/longer' argument between several senior devotees here in GV. As I wrote to Madhava, I could have taken that argument and substituted in 'who's genetalia is bigger' & had the same conversation in any bar/pub.

The message here, especially to neophytes, is that even senior vaisnavas can not stop defending their ego, and it makes one wonder 'what waits for me'? Here are people who have given most of their lives over to the cultivation of bhakti (some 25 - 30+ years), and what we get is a pissing contest over defending one's ego. The conversation really needed to be moved to PM/private forum/email. Some members were also being blatently offensive to others, something that just should not be allowed.

Again, the initial topic was not my complaint.

Personally I think it very educational and progressive for neophytes to have a chance at a view of the seniors' world, especially when these conduct a sorting out of reality.

I don't see the need to hide stuff anymore. Well, certain things shouldn't be hidden anymore, in my opinion.

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It was exactly the same, what I thought while reading the thread. I even wanted to start new topic entitled "Does sadhana work at all?", but after some consideration I wrote what I had written.

Greetings Everyone!

DharmaChakra - kindly refrain from using words that bring up inappropriate images to the audiences' mind. Also, you might be mixing up threads here - I am not sure we are mentioning our individual sadhana - I am sorry you think of personal sharing about our individual sadhana as a vehicle of inspiration and possibilities, to be ego-one-upmanship. I hope someday you will appreciate what you seem not to be able to appreciate now.


Again sorry you see it this way - best wishes that someday you might see more and when you become even more mature than you are now - might even appreciate the resolutions that have come out of what took place. Btw - I am not addressing your ego right now - I am trying to reach your heart - where understanding and compassion reside, not where re-action steams forward and blinds us momentarily.

I agree with you here - although I believe it was only one member.


Thank you Anand - for your mature understanding. This "seniors' world" is an interesting world filled with varied experiences and realizations that many of you have no idea about and therefore some people, some times would rather judge it - The world we lived is sadly for the most part gone, it is a world many of you will not ever know. I do feel though at the same time this is your time now - with some of you going to the Holy Dham and searching out these great Vaishanavas and taking shelter of this truly wonderful tradition!

Kalkidas - Sadhana works! Thats the good news! How horriable, perplexing at best, it must be to read through things here you may not understand yourself and then comment on them, on top of that possible not getting the kind of response you expected.

We own it to ourselves to grasp the deeper issues that are going on here and not mix critique with offence. Not to mix out-reach that warns you of an obsticle on your path with truths you are unable to accept and then call it peoples' fighting egos. There is so much more to the Caitanya Tradition than what some people here have been led to believe and therefore assume (and vice-versa). It takes time for this uphevel and sorting out to take place - we do need to be patient.

Kindly excuse me if there are any upsets about what I have written. there is ego present in any action - lets try not to project selfish, malacious ego where it is not present - because the source of it is found in ourselves. Then we are blessed to know what to consciously weed out of ourselves and become the greater person we are naturally. Again appologies. Jai Sri Radhe!

I have finally gone and looked over the original thread and I vote to have it restored.

I think that this is, as was said here, an issue that is going to come up again and again, and we might as well leave the matter open and running. In this matter, I agree with Anand above (and Braja's comments in the original thread). Those who are new and trying to understand the issues may as well see everyone for what they are, warts and all, especially those who are claiming seniority.

I am not in favor of censoring this stuff for the benefit of the innocent. Let the innocent be deflowered as soon as possible. If we are to attach ourselves to the Ideal, it must not be by blinding ourselves to the Real.

Naturally, I appeal to everyone to attempt to deal with these matters in as polite a manner as possible, not to take things personally when it is possible to do so, etc. Nevertheless, let us grow thick carapaces when it comes to controversy, because peace does not come by ignoring controversies, but by making sense of them.

I was not going to discuss the issues of the thread, but I will say on the issue of sadhana that other than the guru, no one has the right to prescribe sadhana for anyone else.

One may have a guru who says a lakh is the only standard. But Krishnadas himself says. "eka sAdhe keha sAdhe bahu aGga / niSThA hoile uThe premera taraGga //" Harinam is said to be indispensible, but one's niSThA can be for any of the important angas.

One's bhakti-sadhana is like one's sva-dharma. You don't tell a carpenter to be a kshatriya, or a brahmin to clean toilets. Similarly, if someone has niSThA or ruchi or Asakti for hearing the Bhagavatam, then if he chants less than a lakh, you had better not criticize him. Or if someone else serves the devotees, or even, like Kalidas, is devoted to the remnants of Vaishnavas, he can attain prema.

There are numerous examples of this and verses in the scripture, so I suggest that the concept that only someone who chants 64 rounds is a superior Vaishnava should be reviewed carefully.

zrI-viSNoH zravaNe parIkSid abhavad vaiyAsakiH kIrtane
prahlAdaH smaraNe tad-aGghri-bhajane lakSmIH pRthuH pUjane |
akrUras tv abhivandane kapi-patir dAsye 'tha sakhye 'rjunaH
sarvasvAtma-nivedane balir abhUt kRSNAptir eSAM parA ||

The supreme goal of attaining Krishna came
to Maharaja Parikshit through hearing about Lord Vishnu;
to Sukadeva Goswami through reciting about him;
to Prahlad Maharaj by remembering the Lord
to the goddess of fortune by massaging his feet;
to Maharaj Prithu through worshiping the Deity,
to Akrura through the offering of prayers;
to Hanuman through an attitude of service
to Arjuna through friendship with Krishna
and to Bali Maharaja through surrendering all he had
to the Lord's lotus feet.

(Padyavali 53, CC 2.22.136; BRS 1.2.365)

A hint of this can also be found in Madhurya-kadambini, 2.10 in the discussion on vyUDha-vikalpa:

Then again such a devotee may wonder: “Should I concentrate on chanting the Holy Names, hearing Hari katha or engaging in practical service? Or perhaps I should practise all the bhakti angas like King Ambarish?”

In other words, part of the process of attaining prema is a certain self-knowledge about one's own character and tendencies. Your sadhana should be adapted to your personality, and not artificial or forced.

smartavyaH satataM viSNur vismartavyo na jAtucit
sarva-vidhi-niSedhAH syur etayor eva kiGkarAH.

None of this is meant to minimize the importance of Nam-bhajan. But the varieties of devotional service are there because there are many kinds of devotees. The important thing is to give your heart to Krishna and do what you can.

You don't need to vote. Just restore it if you think it's OK. You're a moderator just as much as I or anyone else.

However if it's restored, perhaps it should be cut in half as there are really two separate topics there. And perhaps the second half should be merged with this thread.

I am sorry Jagat you may have mis-understood me in the past. I am saying that it is a normal Vaishnava that completes 64 rounds of Harinam Japa per day. In my thoughts about what a "superior" Vaishnava would complete - my guess would be 3-7 times that much.......what do you think? Srila Hari das thakur did 3 lakhs (193 rounds) each day. You own Blessed Gurudev did 5 lakhs (320 rounds) per day, and lastly my Blessed Param Gurudev was know to have completed 7 lakhs per day or 448 rounds of Harinam Japa. I think those three were what you would call "superior Vaisnavas".

Isn't it true that Harinama Sankirtan - which includes Harinam Japa - is the Dharma of this age? Then wouldn't that be , in a way, everyone's svaDharma? As far as I know all Caitanya Vaisnavas are supposed to complete 64 rounds per day. That Mahaprabhu does not accept invitations to eat at the home of anyone but a lakh-pati (one who completes 64 rounds of Harinam per day) refer to Caitanya Bhagavat.

Your reference to the other Bhaktas in the Bhagavata verse doesn't seem to apply here, because they are from different yugas.

I agree one should give one's heart to Sri Krsna. The way of doing that however is through BhajanaKriya - Harinam being the main kriya for the Caitanya Tradition. One's nistha, ruchi and asakti come later. Are we putting the cart before the horse JagatJi.......................

Sheer curiosity, but do you mean normal vairAgi-bhajanAnadi, or a normal any initiated Gaudiya Vaishnava? If the latter, then we should see that just about all non-vairAgi-bhajanAnandis initiated in traditional Gaudiya lineages chant at least a lakh per day. I seriously doubt this is the situation you'll face if you travel around Bengal and ask around from the average Gaudiya householder as to what their sAdhana might have been. I may be mistaken, but I am under the impression that even your gurudeva only began to lay emphasis on intense bhakti-sAdhana towards the end of his household years.



That is the recommendation, yes. I am quite certain we can also present many other recommendations that are quite emphatically put forth in the scriptures that people do not follow -- not even the laksapatis. Hari-bhakti-vilasa for one, but also recommendations on other bhakti-angas.

A peculiar detail is that Mahaprabhu would also not take food cooked by non-brahmins regardless of the quantity of name they chanted. But that again is a whole other topic.



If we assume that the Bhagavata was written at the dawn of Kali-yuga, then for evident reasons the examples predate the work. However the teachings of the Bhagavata aren't relevant only for other yugas. It was written specifically for the future ages, ie. the people of the age of Kali. Mahaprabhu embraced the Bhagavata as the spotless pramANa illuminating the ways of bhakti. kalau naSTa-dRzAm eSa purANArko'dhunoditaH. Should that not suffice, Sri Jiva has embraced the idea in his Bhakti-sandarbha. This post should be of interest in this regard. The gist of what Sri Jivapada says after having quoted the verse demonstrating how different devotees attained perfection through different practices is as follows:



I should add that the ruchi mentioned here is not the equivalent of ruchi bundled in the nistha-asakti-bhava ladder. It quite simply refers to your individual preference in the very general usage of the word.



Interestingly, we always hear of sankirtan as the crown-jewel of various methods of bhajana. I need not remind that sankirtan means chanting together with the accompaniment of various instruments such as khol and karatalas. How do we patch this together with the emphasis on nAma-japa? Please note that I am not challenging the importance of nAma-japa, but rather presenting a sincere inquiry that I find a bit puzzling myself.

I would not reverse any decision you made, Madhava, without first discussing it with you. I think I may follow your above suggestion.

OK, I restored it, but I did not split it. I'll have to think about that.

Yes - any initiated Bengali Vaishnava who wants intimacy and service of MahaPrabhu is supposed to complete 1 lakh each day. Vairagi-bhajannandis usually do more than 1 lakh, but not always, not in every case.




NamaJapa (in any of its three forms), kirtan (loud chanting of the Holy Name, Vacasik-Japa included), and Sankirtan (Kirtana done by more than 1 person together) are all on a contium of practice that supports "Harer Nama, Harer Nama, Harer Nama eva-kavelam; Kalau Nastyeva Nastyeva Nastyeva gatiranyatha" and that, my friend, is all she wrote.



I don't know what he did during his household days, but it doesn't matter what other people do - it matters what we individuals do according to what we want - and if we want MahaPrabhu 1 lakh is the price! Hooray!. Madhava btw- is this your way of provoking me to share with you something of my Blessed Gurudev's "intense Bhajan-sadhana" ?

*Note: what I am trying to convey here is the importance of nama Japa and that in our traditon most evryone knows that 64 rounds is the standard (I think the standard for Iskon is 16). I am very happy to find that most everyone here amongst the moderators understands the said importance. Thank you all very, very much!

Yes, I am aware that this is what everyone is supposed to do. However, what I am asking is whether everybody is doing it. There are so many things we are supposed to do, but which for one reason or another (work, family etc.) we are unable to. I think I'll start another topic for studying all the things we are supposed to do.



Yes, I am aware of this verse that speaks of the holy name without specifying what to do with it. However, sankirtan and japa are specified as two separate bhakti-angas in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu (33/64 and 34 respectively).

Well, not exactly, but now that you brought it up... It would be mighty interesting if you could share some narrations about him. I have started a new topic in the Pastimes / Biographies section with Tinkadi Goswami's biography by Kapoor. It would be great if you could add to the wealth of information about him.