Cast your vote for the upcoming elections - Who gets your vote?

Though this isn't exactly a board for political debates, I'm still curious over how our members view the upcoming US elections. So, cast your vote.

"I would rather vote for a dog than for George Bush."

Drstha Das, in Hillsborough, NC.

Anand, believe it or not, I agree with you wholeheartedly!

Disdain for G.W, the tie that binds...

George W. Bush as caught on film: "We're gonna get those terrorist thugs (pause) Now watch me hit this drive." (at the golf course).

Or...

"More Muslims have died at the hands of killers than — I say more Muslims — a lot of Muslims have died — I don't know the exact count — at Istanbul. Look at these different places around the world where there's been tremendous death and destruction because killers kill." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 29, 2004

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." —Greater Nashua, N.H., Jan. 27, 2000

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

"Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?" —Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

"They misunderestimated me." —Bentonville, Ark., Nov. 6, 2000

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." —Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

For more please visit Bushisms

A big advertising agency in Helsinki set out to make their own shadow-elections online, with big posters all over the city. The current results are Bush-Kerry - 18%-82%.

Sri Matsya Avatara ki jaya!

Good for Kerry. Just too bad that Europeans cannot vote in this election I prefer Kerry over Bush, although I must admit that the DNC people, going "Do you want to help elect John Kerry?", whom I used to bump into constantly in Cambridge were getting on my nerves. The price, however, has to go to the Lyndon LaRouch Youth Movement whom I also met on a few occassions. What a bunch!

I think Bush should be re-elected so that when America loses this war and is made bankrupt, history will remember that it was Bush and his "moral Christians" who were responsible for this. Not John Kerry.

How can you criticize our commander-in-chief? Haven't you heard he is a "man of God?"

What makes someone a man of God, I wonder? Perhaps nothing more than a little name dropping?

Electoral-vote.com is a fairly balanced view of the electoral college process throughout the elections. Love it or hate it the electoral college vote is all that matters in the end as we have seen in 2000 (with a little help from the Supreme Court).

The animated electoral map is an interesting sight.

And with the Boston Red Sox winning the World Series and the Washington Redskins losing the game before the big vote, it looks as though Kerry has at least superstition on his side.

By the way, anyone catch the CBC's Fifth Estate on Dick Cheney? Pretty scathing but confirms my thoughts that Cheney is the most powerful and most scary person in the US government. I downloaded the epsiode and at 300+ mb (yikes!) it was worth the wait.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

Just think if the United States Constitution had an amendment which stated that one cannot declare War unless they can spell War we wouldn’t be in such a bad predicament these days...

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

Well said!

CNN.com - Bin Laden: Goal is to bankrupt U.S.

If that is Bin Laden's goal then he should endorse Bush as he seems to be on the right track!

The real question is for those of us that indicated we would vote for anyone other than Bush. Do we really mean it? I mean would we rather a ticket of KB with Gopidust as his VP?

Hmmm. Maybe I am just going to Vote for Kerry.

The Bushisms are amusing in a sick way, unless you look at them as Mark Crispin Miller did. His book, The Bush Lexicon (I think), started out as humor, but as Miller delved more deeply into the world of Bushisms, he was faced with a stark reality: they reveal that Bush is not an idiot, but a sociopath.

I haven't had a chance to read the book yet. I've wanted to check it out from the university library, but it has gone missing (my guess is at the hands of an incensed rightie).

Yeah, fine--but we have to live with him as a daily reality; you don't, Murali (not to the extent we do). The sooner that smug smirker and his puppet masters are out of the news, the happier I'll be. Frankly, it's getting harder each day to identify with any of this foolishness at all. Where's then damned forest?

2 people voted no opinion or neutral about fascism. Wow! They must really be absorbed in some serious rasa lila. 1 person voted for Bush. Must be one of those who deeply appreciated the motherly aspects of Putana. I sure hope those 5 who are for anything but Bush know that means to vote for Kerry.

Don't be silly Murali, if Bush remains president the whole world is bankrupt. Fast.

Well, KB's environmental agenda doesn't seem to be that bad... And he would probably have Gopidust compromise considerably so to function within the office. But I would take Kerry, still. I am a foreign in this country and I suspect KB's agend on ethnical cleansing is not a very stable one.

By the way, KB seems to have unearthed the real AXIS OF EVIL [the world is up against]... Dark days ahead of us, indeed...

One of this two was me. Living in Russia I really don't have opinion about Mr. Bush and his politics. I have no reliable source of information on such things here. Moreover, I must say that I even don't know for sure about real deeds of our own president and is he really could be trusted, what to say about president of USA?
So, please don't hurry to put me down in the camp of neutrals or admirers of fascism.

Americans are so deeply sunk into materialism that it really doesnt makes any difference who's president. The dramatical catastrophy however is that many Vaishnavas are making such external things responsible for their situation of not following Sriman Mahaprabhu's order to deliver others from going to hell. By giving away the responsibility we are also giving away the power, given to us by the Lord for saving humanity. And remain like locked up victims almost unable to save ourselves.

I'm with you, Jatayu. What I meant to express was just such a sentiment. Caring about these people seems part of a householder's responsibility in a society such as ours, and certainly part of an educated professional's (especially a professor's) concern. But I can no longer pretend that any of these jerks has anything to offer. When I have bothered to vote, I have almost always voted for third-party candidates. My first vote for US president, in 1968, was cast for Dick Gregory. More recently, I've voted for Green party candidates at many levels, including Raph Nader for president (don't blame me--mylast vote was in California, whose electoral votes easily went to Gore). My own inclination is to withdraw from civil life to a life of bhajan and preaching (the forest I mentioned is figurative--I actually live in a forest of mango, banana, and ohia). My only material ambition these days is to ensure that my wife of 32 years no longer suffer abject poverty because of my decisions.

Various perspectives on voting, just arrived in my mail, courtesy of a university colleague:

Your every voter, as surely as your chief magistrate, under the same high sanction, though in a different sphere, exercises a public trust - Steven Grover Cleveland

Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote - George Jean Nathan

Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil - Jerry Garcia

The biggest danger for a politician is to shake hands with a man who is physically stronger, has been drinking and is voting for the other guy - William Proxmire

Half the American people never read a newspaper. Half never voted for President. One hopes it is the same half - Gore Vidal

If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal - Emma Goldman


Democracy is three wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper - Unknown

An election is coming. Universal peace is declared and the foxes have a sincere interest in prolonging the lives of the poutry - T.S. Eliot

He is one of those wise philanthropists who, in a time of famine, would vote for nothing but a supply of toothpicks - Douglas Jerrold

To make democracy work, we must be a nation participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain - Louis L'Amour

Actually I do regret saying that Bush should be reelected, and if I had a vote I would vote for John Kerry.

You had a point there, though, on how the world, or what's left of it anyway after his second term, would see the light. It's just that the cost of the point would be pretty high.

I hope I am misunderstanding you, but you seem to be suggesting either that to vote for Bush is to support fascism, or that not to oppose Bush is to fail to oppose fascism.

For the record, I believe that George W. Bush is a profoundly unacceptable candidate for President.

But Bush's cause is strengthened by opponents who label him a "fascist." Such a charge is based either on emotion or on a lack of understanding of what fascism actually is. So when Bush can rationally demonstrate that he is not a fascist, he gains credibility over those opponents who make such a careless accusation.

Compared to most nations, the United States has a sadly narrow range of political expression. Both of its major parties would be "center-right" parties in most other nations' systems, though in one party the "hard-right" faction is warring against the "center-right" faction. But even the hard-right faction is not properly called "fascist."

Sadhu! Sadhu!

Preferring Kerry to Bush is like preferring arsenic to cyanide. It may be "better," but it is still very, very bad for the recipient.

George W. Bush is a profoundly unacceptable candidate. But I will not disrespect either those who engage in "strategic voting" and choose Kerry as the best anti-Bush alternative, or those who "throw away their vote" and select an "unelectable" third-party candidate who most closely represents their beliefs.

I will, however, vigorously disagree with anyone who tries to present John F. Kerry as a desirable candidate in his own right. His singular virtue is that he is "less worse than Bush" -- in much the same way that skin cancer may be "less worse" than breast cancer. Both are still cancer. Kerry is a cancer on the American political landscape; the main distinction is that he has not metastasized as Bush has.

Hear, hear...

its the misapplication of terms like 'fascist' that lead us to trivialize these ideologies & in effect mainstream them. Whatever his faults, Bush is no Mussolini. Labeling him a 'fascist' labels 1/2 the US 'fascist', and waters down the term so much that the threat posed by true Fascism is overshadowed...

This vote is over, with interesting results. 13% - 87%.

http://www.varjovaalit.com/

I dropped them a note to include some information of the quantity of voters, would give a better idea of how many people voted.

Well, they are both in Skull and Bones...

How about he's a compassionate conservative fascist?

I can't believe it... As of this moment, it looks like Kerry is conceding the election to Bush. I'm ready to move to a different country. To all of you who live outside the U.S., consider yourself lucky... unless Bush decides to invade you in the next four years.

Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas.

My sentiments exactly! I am in no way an endorser of Kerry but the fact that the majority in this country feel better guided by, and in tune with, Bush boggles my mind.

I literally was up all night watching in disbelief. One thought was just how ISKCON seems to mirror American apathy. It is such a sad thing. We should demand excellence from ourselves and our leaders and we simply don't. We just want a pat on the back and a feeling of belonging. It is a sad thing.

Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas,
Rasaraja dasa

I voted for Kerry. Actually, I voted against Bush. Nader was not on the ballot in Hawaii, and suddenly at the end, our little blue state became a possible factor, so I declined to vote for the Green candidate. I would not be celebrating if Kerry had won. I thought the Democrats' process was a mess and they did not come up with the best candidate.

I'm not leaving the country (Hell, I live in Hawaii--where else is there left to go?), but I am disheartened. Bush and his crew will seee this as an even bigger mandate than they (thought they) got in 2000. With control of the adminstration, both houses of Congress, and the Supreme Court (with much firmer control imminent) the conservatives will pull out all the stops in their effort to change the color of Amrican culture and politics. This is a little more external incentive for changing the direction of my life, but I haven't figure out how to get there from here.

Madan Gopal's sentiment reminds me of something that happened the afternooernon High School. When I went to my locker after school was dismissed, Marian Calloway, a good friend on whom I had a secret, deep crush, was leaning against her locker, sobbing uncontrollably. I put my arm around her in an effort to console her (yeah, and that, too). She started crying even harder and said that her father had said that if Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon ever became president, they were moving to South America. They never did, but Marian was pretty freaked out.

* waves bye-bye to Iran *
* gets rid of all US dollars *
* prepares to buy things cheap from the US *

(Forgive me for not writing this out more carefully.)

The last few weeks of this U.S. election have really opened my eyes about one or two things. This could probably turn into a rather broad analysis of the Krishna movement in general and its place in North American society.

It would seem that the general divide in American society between liberal and conservative is reflected to some extent in our Vaishnava society--though apparently not here, at least not amongst those who decided to particpate in Madhava's little poll.

The NYTimes columnist David Brooks, a conservative, has written a number of columns over the past few weeks reflecting on the types of people who "fit" into one or the other of these categories, and how the two candidates typified them very closely.

Those who came to Krishna in the 60's and 70's, like myself, mostly came out of the hippie movement. Even though Srila Prabhupada was very conservative (it's hard to see him voting for anyone other than Bush, though it's possible he might take the usual hard-stool, soft-stool position), the hippies--middle-class, urban, primarily intellectual--were natural liberals and Democrats.

Nevertheless, those hippies who became Hare Krishnas were definitely NOT becoming evangelical Christians, and I still think that there are many followers of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu who though attracted by the concept of "faith" still feel distinctly uncomfortable with the typically fundamentalist Christian approach to religion.

Reflect a little on the difference between a Bhagavata class and a Christian tele-evangelist. This is somewhat odd, as the Christian goal of emotional union with God is similar to ours. However, the Hare Krishna approach was definitely an intellectual, not an emotional, one. Though I think we need to deepen our own understanding of the relation between our path's emotional and intellectual sides, because there are definitely unconscious elements involved, most Western devotees were attracted to KC by its time-honored Indian philosophical approach. "You are not this body," etc.

Most of us who left Iskcon for traditional lines also did so at least in part out of intellectual curiosity, in other words, because the tradition was foreign, attractive and rich in substance. After all, just chanting and reading only Prabhupada's books theoretically WILL give you all the spiritual nourishment you need, at least enough for someone who is not particularly curious.

Bush has been characterized as a man of faith, who "feels" rather than "thinks." He takes base line positions on moral issues like gay-marriage or abortion that give him rock solid support from this fundamentalist constituency. Simple answers, black-and-white vision.

Our experience with KC's fundamentalism led many of us to experience a revival of our natural liberal inclinations. We have experienced first hand, so to speak, the limitations of this kind of simplistic outlook and led us to penetrate deeper into our faith. We need to figure out "the meaning of our meaning." The simplistic fundamentalist approach to life and religion seems unnatural, not only to us, but even to our tradition. ye yathA mAM prapadyante. I don't believe we are moral relativists, but we certainly do have a greater sympathy for almost anything except the lack of sympathy. The danger is wishy-washyness, or inaction where action is needed. But the danger of a Bush is in the opposite course.

At any rate, it's good to know who we are. I know that most of you are not ex-hippies, as you young 'uns all come out of another generation (punks, I hear are sort of 80's version of hippies). But Canadians and Europeans (not Russians) naturally fall into the liberal category.

I was just chatting with Madan Gopal this morning at the parking lot of the local courthouse and was telling him that it is actually encouraging to see that young devotees (like him and yourself) display a healthy outlook regarding world situation as well as our devotional community at large. It is a good sign that even as the odds apparently prevail, the resistance to that is actually a good 50% or very near. So personally I don’t think there is reason to loose heart too much but push steadily forward instead with reason and heart. Although it difficult to imagine how to survive another 4 years of Bushism, it can only be done with the resistance of folks like yourselves. And 50% is not that bad considering the odd we are up against. At least half of he American people seem to have bought into the propaganda of evil and fear, but the rest of the world is almost unanimously with the near 50% of the people here who have been more sensible than vote for Bush. As my daughter wisely put it, ”If the whole world could vote, the Dalai Lama would win.”

Jagat: [Bush has been characterized as a man of faith, who "feels" rather than "thinks." He takes base line positions on moral issues like gay-marriage or abortion that give him rock solid support from this fundamentalist constituency. Simple answers, black-and-white vision.]

And simple minded devotees run away with this, feeling that Bush would naturally be a better candidate based solely on conservative issues. You expertly demonstrate how KC is not an automatic conservative religion.

[The simplistic fundamentalist approach to life and religion seems unnatural, not only to us, but even to our tradition. ]

[But Canadians and Europeans (not Russians) naturally fall into the liberal category.]

Yeah, Canada has universal health care too. And its not too far away! But cold... But then there is Hawaii, close enough to its own country. Hey Babhru, got any space nearby?
***********************************************************************

Do you have a visa to go to Canada? Would Canada even want you? I am under the impression that it is not necessarily all that easy for a U.S. citizen to immigrate to Canada. Before the election, I heard a number of people say, "If Bush wins, I will move to Canada," but after quizzing them it turned out that they did not really know what was involved. Just empty talk.

A friend of mine lived in Canada for a number of years. His assessment was that one half of the Canadians blame the immgrants, the other half the U.S.--so imagine being a U.S. immigrant there Well, I have never been there and do not know the situation. It may be different.

The mood here was quite depressed this morning after it was clear that Bush had won the election.

The expression of a winner!

Yep.

Well, I for one am looking forward to some new and exciting Bush-isms to enjoy.

Yahoo has details on this. You'd think that Canada would be pretty interested in an influx of educated, liberal urbanites from the left and right coasts of the US. Give em five or ten years and the country will be hopping. Meanwhile, back on the farm...


Some of us married dual citizens, knowing full well that the US was headed for a cultural depression.

The regime in Iraq would never ever having allowed Vaishnavism in their country. In fact Islamic fundamentalists would even rather kill Vaishnavas.
Islamic fundamentalism is so hateful against other relgions and militant you would have wait till the end of time to enter Baghdad with harinama. It might sound cruel, but the only chance to establish Vaishnavism in these countries is after they are being disciplined and have established a free choice of religion. In fact all those killed marines will greatly benefit when Gaudiya Vaishnavas are peacefully ringing the temple bell in Baghdad.

Just as I thought: it is not that easy. Anyway, I imagine that the majority of the would-be new Canadians are just talk, no action.


Which country is your wife a citizen of besides the U.S.?

For all of you who are thinking of immigrating to Canada:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html

Canada lucked out in the 60's and 70's when 50,000 US draft dodgers came to live here to escape Vietnam. I am amazed at what great people they mostly are. Many, many university professors, etc. But you can see how that sort of helped upset the balance.

Same thing in the very beginning. There were hardly any English speaking whites up here until the Revolution. Then when purges of the supporters of the King began, they came up here. Then in 1812, when England was busy with Napoleon, the Americans thought they would just annex Canada, but they failed. At any rate, this is the very old historical reason for distrusting Americans here.

There have been a couple of incidents lately of deserters from the American army who don't want to go to Iraq coming to Canada. Who knows, we may get lucky again! Especially if Bush decides he needs to reinstitute the draft. But our leaders are less courageous (or more pragmatic) than Trudeau who was the one who let draft dodgers in last time around.

The fact is we just depend too much on the US economically.

The best chance for getting into Canada--know French.

Satyabhama:

"What makes someone a man of God, I wonder? Perhaps nothing more than a little name dropping?"

Narcissism.

I don't think it's accurate to characterize Saddam Hussein's regime as fundamentalist Muslims. The dude was a secularist in his behavior and was Muslim mostly in his rhetoric. There was strife between the sect that dominated the region he's from and the other sect (I can't remember now which is which). But the real problem in Iraq was the fact that the dictator was nothing more than a thug, not that he was Muslim.

And there are Vaishnavas and other Hindus in some pretty Islamist countries. I've read some reports from Indradyumna Swami about his visits to Islamist Arab countries (I think he was constrained form naming them by concerns for his hosts' safety), holding kirtan and Kari-katha among Indian guest workers.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. I've been calling Bush a fascist for some time now, and I am not emotional or irrational in this regard. My Webster's defines fascism as "Any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppression of opposition." A looser definition comming from Mussolini, which I do not have an exact quote for, is combining government and corporate big business interests. I believe the current regime meets these criteria. Most persons are in denial that this is what is really happening in the US. I also see paralells between Bush and Hitlar.

W's granddaddy did truck with the Nazis.

Je n'ai pas voté pour Bush! En outre, j'aime manger des baguettes avec le nutella! Est-ce que je peux habiter en votre pays?

(sorry, I'm a bit rusty)

Satyabhama,

Can you say, "fermme la Bush"?

Yes, I can and have been saying this for the last four years or so...

Unfortunately the majority of Americans are monolingual. This particular phrase especially seems unknown to them.

Subal,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

The second ("Mussolini") definition is so broad that it's not much help, as plenty else can qualify while demonstrably not being "fascism." The first ("Webster's") definition is far more helpful, and the Bush Administration does not qualify as "fascism" by the Webster's standard.

I believe the problem is far more insidious. David Rockefeller years ago made the chilling comment, "'Freedom' is the absence of the awareness of restraint." Indeed, if you can teach a slave to love his chains, he will call his slavery "freedom." This, rather than some too-generalized charge of "fascism", is the horror at the heart of America's experiment with "freedom."

Meanwhile, the laws of the United States are the laws of a republic. Yet the rhetoric of the United States is the rhetoric of a democracy. This tension alone breeds plenty of conflict, confusion and contradiction. Moreover, in practice, the United States is neither a republic nor a democracy if you have enough wealth or power to wield influence with the governing classes. If you have enough wealth or power in the United States, you can far too often bend the law to accommodate your wishes.

That is reprehensible. At times it is plainly evil. It is corporate oligarchy, perhaps, laid atop the wreckage of a 200-year-old system of republican laws and jurisprudence. But it is not "fascism."

What, then, does this mean for us as followers of Mahaprabhu? Our compassion is supposed to reach out to all people, and I am concerned that the word "fascist" is too often used to "demonize" someone so that we can have (to use Buber's taxonomy) an "I-It" relationship instead of an "I-Thou" relationship. Remember, too, that by using an overly broad definition (and allowing for the anachronism), Mahaprabhu's associates could easily have dismissed Chand Kazi as a "fascist" and shunned him when he was moved to conversion by Mahaprabhu's mercy. Thankfully, that didn't happen.

Woo-hoo! I pass!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

Our only hope is that this land one days fulfills its ideal - it becomes another immense Canada.

What is it exactly that is so wonderful about Canada other than that it is not the U.S.?

I would go further away. New Zealand is a truly wonderful place. Why not consider moving there?

http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/

My experience visiting Canada a dozen times or more, has been consistent: people are much more friendly than those I meet in the US. They seem to have time and an interest in interacting with my family and I. From customs officers to restaurant workers, our children have been swamped with attention. Nothing like that has ever happened to us in the US. In parts of Quebec where people spoke little English, we received nothing but affectionate attempts at communication. I live in a small hamlet where people react with surprise--or don't react--when I greet them. Only the old people, with no one else to interact with, give cautious replies. The only US city or town that has really impressed me is Portland. Guess I'm a sucker for people who give a damn.

(My wife is Canadian but spent too long in NJ/NY.)


Hmm. Now there's an idea! Kirtanananda apparently visited there on R&R and liked it so much that in the 90s sent some of his people there to buy land. They put a downpayment on a beautiful farm property, located on a peninsula. ISKCON stirred up the press and the deal fell thru--I heard of ISKCONites actually distributing Monkey on a Stick. Later the Interfaith people there joined ISKCON.

Siddhaswarupa was also there back in the early/mid 90s. He appeared on national TV after a local politician became suspicious of his "film company" with an all vegetarian film crew. His house was shown lined with foil and during the interview he rolled around on one of those large, inflatable yoga balls.

Shania Twain and the Red Hot Chili Peppers guy also have land there. The US$ goes pretty far but it is getting more difficult.

1. French accent
2. no need to lock your door at night

3. no age limit to be guru
4. free health care

Are French accents really that interesting? If so, why not go all the way, to France itself? Or somewhere exotic, like Réunion.


Well, I do not lock my door at night and I am in the U.S.

Every places has its good and bad sides, Canada and the U.S. included.

5. it is not France
6. its people not exotic yet friendly
7. its people friendly yet would never elect Bush
8. it is not the US

1. People here manage to mumble a totally incomprehensible accent to just about any language you can imagine;
2. We lock our doors at night and chain it up, too.
3. We don't have an age limit there, either, but there's an old law saying you can't make money through sorcery services, so I guess that's out of question as far as a lucrative profession goes.
4. Supposedly yes, though sometimes you need to wait in queue for a year before they take you in, and still much of it costs.

But we have lots of big pine trees and not that many bushes around here, so all things considered I won't complain.

9. it is where you find intelligent Americans
10. who cause kind locals to feel lucky

And you have Oulu with its World Air Guitar Championship and the Shouting Men's Choir (I love the picture!). That is fantastic 10 points to Finland!

Denmark satisfies all of the above as well. How about considering moving there?

You're saying Denmark isn't exotic?

I was going to suggest Denmark as well. I could think of many reasons to avoid Canada. I mean, they built a Shania Twain museum in her hometown of Timmins, and it took her three years to work up the muster to come and see it. But then, Timmins is almost like Canada's Siberia. That Neil Young song "Helpless" is about north Ontario. And I think that Bob Dylan wrote about "haunted, frightened trees after a passing through a Canadian winter somewhere.

Canada is a place people leave to go to the U.S. Then they bore everyone with how superior Canada is to the U.S. while drinking daquiris on the lounge chair by their swimming pool.

Ummmm... What does that mean? She reacts with a surprise or doesn't react when you greet her? Gives cautious replies?

Denmark is not a bad place. Health care is free, education is free, etc. However, the present government has made the immigration laws much more strict.

Denmark: Rebuffing Immigrants

Denmark condemned over immigration

I grew up in Copenhagen and it is a nice place, although hardly as fairy tale-like as some people would want you to believe. Still, I think that I will prefer to immigrate to somewhere else after I get my Ph.D. Perhaps Australia.

Speaking of cold places, then Greenland is under Denmark. And Denmark hopes to claim the North Pole.

Denmark hopes to claim North Pole

Dude! You fell for all the hype and propaganda. We did not invade Iraq to spread Gaudiya Vaishnavism as they would lead you to believe.

Yes, but there were many "faith-based initiatives" that were supposed to go in to do "humanitarian" work.

By the way, I heard of a website "www.marryanamerican.ca" for those who might try skipping all interim steps and taking the marriage route to Canada. The lady who runs the site says that they got 11,000 visits from Americans yesterday.

Jon Stewart last night, the N.Y. Times this morning. Democratic America is in shock, no doubt about it. The letters to the editor in the Times were particularly striking.


And this one,



I think this is very similar to the way I feel about our own liberal/conservative divide in KCM. Gurus are rejected because of sexual falldowns, as though this were the be-all and end-all of one's spirituality. Or so many other adherences to external principles trump inner kindness, mercy, even friendship.

This is, in my opinion, a very "karma" based approach to Krishna consciousness. Devotion is causeless and ultimately based on bhakti's own compassionate appearance. Mahaprabhu, the Name and the Vaishnava are fundamentally compassionate, not Ayatollahs demanding adherence to vidhi. The mercy comes first, piety follows like a maidservant. Sin is terrible, but aparadh is worse.

If Krishna consciousness is to expand beyond a host of narrowly sectarian groups, excluding, excommunicating, running down and cussing each other, we have to come to a broad coalition of compassion. Our lack of compassion for other devotees is based in lack of faith in the Holy Name itself. We think that it is a certain number of names, a certain collection of avoidances, or any number of external adherences that are the principle agents of devotion. This is not the case: the agency is all in the hands of the Holy Name, which extends or withdraws its mercy on the basis of aparadh, and even that is not an absolute end to the mercy of the Name.

Piety and other commitments are followers of the Holy Name.



But this does not mean that one has to make a hypocritical display of piety. It has to be natural. One has to cultivate the inner character of devotion, and externally do what one can. Unless we have this attitude, there is no place for those who are not heroes.

The basic response of faith to the Holy Name is to bow one's head to anyone whose tongue chants the Holy Name. The cultivation of compassion is the soul of devotion, not the four regulative principles. And by compassion I don't mean "preaching." I mean recognizing the fundamental pathos of the human condition itself. The fundamental flawed nature of humanity. The eternal gulf between reality and perfection.

From another forum:


When my wife was traveling around the US and people asked where she's from, she replied "Finland", and some folks asked whether that was one of the states of the US or something.

We all have stories like that. Once in California I was asked where I was from and I said Montreal. He said, "That up near Salinas?" Maybe he was hearing "Monterey".

Gurus in the KCM are not rejected only because of sexual fall downs. Actually many of the rejections are due to the guru(s) lying, cheating, pretty much treating disciples like if idiots. The attitude of the local guru (and the local children can attest to that), for example, is not very far from that of, say, even Hitler, Saddam or George Bush.

It is not an accusation but if anyone wants to go over the whole story I don't mind to tell it. Again...

True. But I wonder if such initiatives represent a good idea.

It is the accent Jagat. After so many years I still don't understand the local people here in NC and they don't understand me. Once I called up a hardware store about a product to seal metal. The clerk told me the thing to buy would be a product called J. B. Whale. To confirm I had heard right, I asked him, "Whale as in the mammal that lives in the ocean?" There was a silence at the other side and so I said thank you and disconnected. I drove then to the store and as I walked in, another clerk greeted me with his "may I hep you?". I said, "Yes please, I would like a tube of J.B. Whale." He said "yes mam". I bought it and brought it home. My husband used the stuff and left the package on the kitchen counter. Later as I picked up the package I realized that the brand name printed on it read J. B. WELD, not Whale!

Have I tried to pronounce "weld" normally I would have not made out of that store so quickly, as it usually happens.

Here is an excert from "The Ghost of Vice President Wallace Warns: "'It Can Happen Here'" by Thom Hartmann

In early 1944, the New York Times asked Vice President Henry Wallace to, as Wallace noted, "write a piece answering the following questions: What is a fascist? How many fascists have we? How dangerous are they?"

Vice President Wallace's answer to those questions was published in The New York Times on April 9, 1944, at the height of the war against the Axis powers of Germany and Japan.

"The really dangerous American fascists," Wallace wrote, "are not those who are hooked up directly or indirectly with the Axis. The FBI has its finger on those. The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power."

In this, Wallace was using the classic definition of the word "fascist" - the definition Mussolini had in mind when he claimed to have invented the word. (It was actually Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile who wrote the entry in the Encyclopedia Italiana that said: "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Mussolini, however, affixed his name to the entry, and claimed credit for it.)

As the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary noted, fascism is: "A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."

Mussolini was quite straightforward about all this. In a 1923 pamphlet titled "The Doctrine of Fascism" he wrote, "If classical liberalism spells individualism, Fascism spells government." But not a government of, by, and for We The People - instead, it would be a government of, by, and for the most powerful corporate interests in the nation.

In 1938, Mussolini brought his vision of fascism into full reality when he dissolved Parliament and replaced it with the "Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni" - the Chamber of the Fascist Corporations. Corporations were still privately owned, but now instead of having to sneak their money to folks like Tom DeLay and covertly write legislation, they were openly in charge of the government.

Vice President Wallace bluntly laid out in his 1944 Times article his concern about the same happening here in America: " If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. ... They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead."

For the full article look here: It Can Happen Here

I definitely agree with the point that gurus are rejected because of lying, cheating and treating disciples like idiots. It is more than that too, when we see institutional philosophical skizms, when we have gurus/leaders tell us one thing and practice another, when we expect moral and honest dealings with the leaders and don't get them, when Prabhupada wanted ISKCON to be based on love and trust and it is really based on sweeping stuff under the rug and vying for ones political cliques... Anyway, you get the gist. Falldown is usually what happens when the individual just can't handle it anymore, and then the whole person becomes unraveled and they tend to publicly acknowledge that they have failed in many of the above mentioned ways. They seem to just want to become a person again and to actually experience life.

Oh and Anand, I would definitely like to hear your whole story. Of course if you've already wrote it on GD, please post a link.

Ys,

John Ralston Saul on Corporatism.

John Ralston Saul is the husband of Canada's Governor-General.

Geez, Anand, you are on a roll... I like that "exotic yet friendly" bit.

Purifried,

You might have noticed that an increasing number or western devotees are a bit lost as to why, if as you say, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami wanted his mission and legacy to be one structured in love and trust, why did he made statements in writing and speeches that allowed for potential dissention and rupture while he was present, and were cause for impasse since his departure and into the future. Of course many theories can be construed as way of answer or answers to such questioning, but the fact is that the possibility is huge that Iskcon did not (and absolutely does not presently) reflect the ideals of Bhaktivedanta Swami as an individual. At least not the complete ideal, not the finished product. In other words, if we forcibly conclude that, because his mission has disappointed, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was, after all, not a man of character and lucid spiritual footing, then we will be the ones creating impasse. Iskcon has become the emblem of any other contemporary institution that attempts to organize expressions of faith into serving a community. The individuals managing these institutions are to be seen as essentially well intentioned, God’s name readily in their lips, but their capacity of representation is definitely overrated. Thus premature intake of absolute trust has caused these individual’s so called fall down, and will continue causing disruption in any attempt at cooperation between individual and community, from whatever institution it is attempted. The individual must know himself and trust his own experience first so to then aid others. As long as there are doubts they must be brought out and resolved with care and dedication. That is the base of trust. Which of course is connected to Love.

Late news on the elections:

A source in Alachua, Fla. has estimated that the majority of vaisnavas at that community voted for Bush. Apparently those voters believed that Mr. Bush is more in line with the teachings of Srila Prabhupada than Kerry, the source said. It was also reported that some vaisnavas lobbing for Kerry receveid angry reactions from Bush supporters prior to the elections. One lobbist for Kerry was Balavanta das, assisted by Brahma Tirtha das. And while Harikesh das (ex-guru) also was said to support Kerry, Hrdayananda Maharaja was reported to have told his disciples to vote for Bush.

Interestingly, Alachua County stands out as one of the few counties that went for Kerry:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/res...P/00/index.html

(It is the blue county sitting by itself in the central, northern part of the state.)

Gainesville is probably the major influence there, especially with the university.

Disappointed Yanks swamp immigration website

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Flyers were posted showing Bush's cow protection program on his ranch at Crawford Texas which sealed the deal.

You'd probably have to put Alberta into Jesusland. But actually, the most right-wing politician in Canada (from Alberta) said that he did not think that religious or moral issues should play as big a role in politics as they do in the USA.

Living in Michigan as I do, I'd be very happy to be part of the U.S. of Canada. My wife and I consider moving to London, Ont. or some other Canadian city. However, we realize the difficulties of that with our limited incomes and finding it difficult to make the prefered list.

We're also looking at Belize, but even that seems like it may be out of our reach. The idea of living in a grungy jungle outpost town on the Guatmalean border doesn't sound particularly appealing either. I would more favor north central Mexico or southern Spain.

I have a strong inclination to move to India, esp. Jaipur or Braja. The spiritual culture and low cost of living is very appealing to me. My wife is less enthusiastic but at least open to the idea. Could anyone tell me about how much it would cost a married couple to live there in a comfortable devotional lifestyle? Also, how hard is it to be able to live there permanently? I have a small income, but my wife is a nurse RN with a degree in Women's Studies. What are her chances of employment?

Any answers or feedback on any of these options would be appreciated. This is not some quick emotional response to the election. We have been thinking about and researching this for a long time. We're serious.

There are two ways to go about with this, you can either rent or build your own. Building your own would cost anywhere from 5 lakhs Rs. ($11.000 USD) upwards, something you would consider comfortable would probably fall somewhere in the $50.000 range. Otherwise, you should be able to rent a neat place with two rooms, a kitchen and a bathroom for around 3000 Rs. ($65 USD) per month.

As for food, you should be eating fairly well with 100-200 Rs. per day. We generally spend somewhere in the range of 3000 Rs. per month for food. Here's a breakdown of a one-month low-end yet decent budget for staying in Vraja.

I really have no answer for the employment issue, unfortunately.

Well, I would imagine that some Vaishnava somewhere in Vraj could use a nurse on their hands. Whether that be Krsna Balaram Mandir and/or Food For Life. It definitely seems to me that someone could use a nurse. Of course the pay will be only a small fraction of what she would make in the west, but that just might be enough to live comfortably because probably whomevery is going to pay her will have a decent pool of $ to pull from (maybe). Then again if you decide to deal w/ ISKCON then you may very well run into politics is they completely pervade ISKCON Vrindavan. Anyway, that's a thought for ya.

Ys,

My guess (and I'm not that close to ISKCON these days) is that Subal would likely be something of a lightning rod: he would either be vilied as an offensive guru tyagi or become someone's salvage project. Either of these would make things uncomfortable for him and his wife.

It may be that ISKCON Vrindavan is a little more liberal than other places; I've heard that some of their pujaris are disciples of Narayan Maharaja, and I know at least one siksa disciple of NM who lives in the MVT colony (or whatever it is) and is active at Krishna-Balarama Mandir. But Subal's position may be a little farther from what they find acceptable. I still hear ISKCON-type folks griping about Jagat (maybe it's just KB and a couple of others), and I would guess Subal would be considered in a similar position.

Thanks for your replies. They are very helpful. I also feel I would not be a good fit with ISKCON and that is why I have kept my distance for many years. That is also why I am more serious about Jaipur. It's a bigger city, hopefully with less ISKCON devotees. I also just love worship and chanting at the Govinda deva temple. I am in exile and want to be with my lord who is also in exile.

Well, this has been a very interesting topic.

I have only just gotten some time to read it. And I can see that we have left the elections far behind.

Let me catch up by saying that:

1. My wife and I voted for Kerry (and all the other local state and county Democrats too). We are pragmatists.

2. Yes, Hawaii is a very Democratic State inspite of the fact that the present governor is a Republican.

3. There is no need to go to Canada. Many Canadians (and others) flock to Hawaii to enjoy our islands.

4. There is still relatively cheap land and housing to be had on the Big Island of Hawaii (Where Babhru lives). There is also an active Volcano, so bring your asbestos sneakers.

5. I agree with Jagat about devotional society mirroring outside society.

6. Yes, I do know many devotees who told me that they would vote for Bush because the Republicans are against Gays, Aborion, etc. ie on moral issues. However most of them are probably not registered to vote.

7. And again I also agree with Jagat that these devotees are seeing things in a very simplistic way.

8. I agree with Subal that Bush is a fascist

Here's a quote from Shakespeare that should just about sum up Bush's strategy.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind… And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind is closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar (George W. Caesar)."

9. By the way New Zealand may be cheap but it is cold and watch out for the economy. Nice people, like Canadians but a little slower. Good cheap milk products, but I am glad I don't live there any more.

10. My picks for "Escape from America" are:

a. India if you can take it

or

b. Hawaii if you cannot take India (yes, I know Hawaii is America but it really is better than the mainland).

11. I was surprised at Madhava's 919 Euro one month budget for India! Wow! I could live for a year in South India for that! Actually Sri Rangam where my wife and I have a house which cost us 3.25 Lakhs back in 1994 (at that time equal to US$11,000) is one of the cheapest places to live in India (also the largest Vaisnava community). Last year when we went to India we visited Vrndavan for the first time in some years and were amazed at how expensive North India and particularly Vrndavan has gotten. By the way the Bhagavatam mentions that in Kali Yuga Vaisnavas will appear in great numbers in South India. So South has always been my pick. The climate is better as well. I lived for about 4 years in Vrndavan and I can tell you that being so close to the Rajastani desert, it's a very harsh climate (materially). The devotees that I know who live there permanently appear to age rapidly.

Hmm... that 911 euros for a month included a two-way Helsinki-Delhi flight and a taxi from / to the airport. Our costs, once we're there, are around 150 euros per month for two, discounting internet etc. stuff that a lot of people can do without.

OOPS! Sorry, I guess I just looked at the bottom line and forgot that it included the flight. Be that as it may be, I still maintain that South is cheaper.

It is only natural that I am biased for the South as I do come from Australia situated in the Southern Hemisphere.

I have not been there in winter, but during the summer it is lovely and I slept on the beach. The people may be a little slow, but they are open and friendly. It was great to visit many of the small towns on the south island.

I lived in Melbourne, Australia for 1 1/2 years. How is the New Zealand winter compared to that place?

http://www.blackboxvoting.com


http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblem...problemtype=ALL


WE ARE NOT A FREE COUNTRY!

THE ATTACK OF FALLUJA COMES IMMEDIATELY AFTER BUSH GETS BACK INTO OFFICE TO TAKE ATTENTION AWAY FROM ELECTION FRAUD!

I lived on the Big Island for nine months in 1980. I would love to live there again, but I can't believe it is affordable for us. What is "relatively cheap land and housing" there? We have very modest means.

I am at an age where I am ready for the vanaprastha life. I am tired of the hard struggle for material existence. I am ready to slow down, devote myself to my bhajan, write and teach. I am looking for a place to be that will facilitate that. It may be right here where I am. Any suggestions are welcome.

An $11,000 house sounds good. Isn't south India very hot also? I know the climate in Rajasthan is harsh and I hope I can still handle it. I did fine in my 20s, but my body has changed. I am a Rupanuga and the fact that his diety is in Jaipur is a major draw for me. Is there much raganuga Radha Krishna worship in the South? I am really quite open regarding my future. We are still in a brainstorming, fact finding stage of planning and will not begin to act until next year probably. Thank you.

Got those "was a sannyasi now I'm a householder blues"?

What about Bengal or Orissa? The only problem you'll have (anywhere in India) is lack of community. This will probably be far worse for your wife than for you. To what extend does she share your values?

These days it just means cheaper than Maui, Oahu, LA, or San Diego. When Satyaki and I moved here a little over three years ago, land and homes on the windward side (Hilo and Puna areas, especially) were cheap, but the prices started swinging up in the fall of 2001. It seemed coincidental with the 9/11 attacks and the dot-com bust. One of the homes I was looking at sold in 2002 for $80,000 and is now on the market for $250,000. It's a smallish (under 1,100 sf) home on an acre of land. We got in at just the last minute. There may still be some good deals in undeveloped property, butit ain't like the old days.



God--me, too. Our place would be good for such a life, but we have to go into Hilo every day to work, and we both bring work home. It's really wearing us down. My longing for a simpler life more focused on bhajan, writing, and teaching (bhakti) grows daily. It could work here if we could cut down on the bills.

Yes.


I've been cosidering Puri. After reading Gaura-nagara stuff by you, I'm more inclined to avoid the place of Chaitanya's sannyasa. It's still a possibility however. Bengal, I wouldn't particularly want to live in Calcutta and don't know of any other good cities to live in. Nabadwip is probably over-run by IGM. Are there any groups connected with LPT?


I am planning to avoid IGM and look for community with Indians and non-IGM Westerners. Is this realistic? My wife shares my values. She is a bit of a neophyte Vaishnava and has not been to India. She will be dependent on me to make the transition.

Of course affordability is relative. The real estate market is still on the way up right now with interest rates still quite low. However you can still find cheap land in Puna, south of Hilo but of course it is near the Volcano. Prices for vacant land start at $5,000 for a 12,000 sqr ft lot. For $50,000, give or take, you can get a cabin on a couple of acres.



$11,000 was the price I paid in 1994. My house is within the walls of the Temple so it would be impossible to get a property for that price today. However if you want to live in a rural area you could get cheaper. I get the impression that you want to be near a temple (as I certainly did and do). Jaipur being in Rajastan means that it is in a tourist area and that means that the prices are going to be very high. Still the best thing to do is decide what criteria is most important to you. If price is an issue then India is the cheapest but rural areas of India will be more affordable. There are of course less material facilities in rural or village areas. Yes, South India is hot, all of India is hot. But in Vraja the climate is severe it is hotter than Sri Rangam in summer and much colder in winter whereas Sri Rangam is more evenly hot but not super hot. Udipi is another place I considered. It is even more temperate than Sri Rangam. There is the famous Krsna temple of Madhvacharya but you may not like that style of worship or philosophy. Food in Udipi is great and I know several devotees who live there or close to there. Unless you live in a hill station you will have to deal with the heat but in temperate areas like Udipi it will not get above 100 F or 40 C. I know foreigners who live at Kodaikanal but again the prices for land and houses in these cool hill areas are expensive and there is usually no temples.

As far as Raganuga bhajan is concerned you are not going to find many Gaudiyas in South. However in Sri Rangam there is a guy called Sri Krishna Premi who is definitely into a type of raganuga bhajan. Your best bet for a cheap place where you can relate spiritually might be in Bengal or a small village area of Braj. But as Jagat says if you live away from where the other westerners are you or your wife may feel a little isolated. If you don't care about this and mix well with the locals (as my wife and I do, we are the only westerners in the whole Sri Rangam area) then you should have no problem.

I could probably afford the cabin and that would be great, but then there's the high cost of living.

Yes. I want to be by a temple or non-IGM spiritual community of some sort. I should be able to mix well with the locals. Any suggestions for a good place in Bengal?

Sorry I don't know Bengal very well. But perhaps others have ideas. I would try for a holy place not too far from Mayapur but also close enough to Calcutta so that one could easily visit these places for spiritual and material reasons. Maybe there is some place like this which also has proximity to the Ganga. Why not ask Gadadhara Prana? He would probably be a good person to advise you.

I just spoke with my wife and Hawaii is now on the table for serious consideration. I could go on doing what I'm doing here and she could work as a nurse, hopefully in a psychiatric unit. It's not India, but each place has it's pros and cons, and as I said, we're open.

Jagat has also suggested I contact him. How does one do that?

If you want to search for properties on the Big Island go to http://hawaiiinformation.com

That is the public MLS system for the Big Island.

For Maui (where I live) go to http://www.mauiboard.com

If you want a refferal to a realtor let me know. I am a realtor on Maui and our office has a branch in Hilo.

For real estate questions please feel free to contact me at greg.jay(at)era.com

or call my cell (808) 357-9619

or toll free at 1 (800) 451-6759 ext. 483

Greg Jay
(Gaura Keshava das)

ERA Maui Real Estate

Keshava,

Thank you for that helpful real estate info. I will certainly use it and contact you should the occasion arise to delve further.

As you may know, I've always considered Hawaii a natural place for spiritual life. The Big Island still has places that are affordable if stark simplicity isn't a problem. At least it's actually possible to live very simply here. Puna is probably the most affordable, but as I said, our place, which is in Puna, is probably worth 2 1/2 or 3 times what we paid for it. 1-acre lots that were under $10,000 two or three years ago are $35,000. But there are plenty of places that are much less expensive.

Food can be expensive, but we have a 365-day growing season, and as you get to know other people, I imagine that bartering is a real possibility.

There are plenty of Gaudiya Vaishnavas here, but no raganugas from traditional lines. Everyone I know of maintains some connection with ISKCON (but not a strong connection--they pretty much don't seem to care about us) or is connected with another GM-oriented group. Some are followers of Narayan Maharaja, others with B.P. Puri Maharaja and his successor, B.B. Bodhayan Maharaja. One devotee has Harinam from Prabhupada and diksa from B.R. Sridhar Maharaja, and I have no close affiliations, although I'm probably closest to Tripurari Maharaja in my mood. But there are no non-"IGM" types that I'm aware of. (Revatinandan, who is sui generis, lives here but doesn't mix much with others. He's not alone in that.)

You may well be able to do the kind of thing you're doing there. It may be easier on the Kona side (much more expensive to live there, though), but you could probably make it work here, as things seem to be developing economically, somehow or another. There's nursing work, but I don't know about psychiatric nursing.

BTW, Satyaki and I will probably be affiliated with the Hilo ERA office early next year.

And before we get too far from the election, I just want to say that it's too bad that the Democrats didn't take George Lakoff more to heart. They pretty much walked into all the linguistic "framing" traps developed by the conservative think tanks over the last 30 years. Maybe he and the Rockridge Institute will get more attention now.

Just to add a little to what Babhru mentioned about what's going on in Hawaii. I will let you know about the scene on Maui.

Here on Maui there are lots of new age people, vegetarians, etc. There is also a better economy so probably a better chance of getting work than the Big Island. There are lots of people who are interested in chanting and other aspects of Vaisnavism. We have chanting programs every tuesday night, first sunday night of the month and sunday night after the new moon, as well as special programs for special holy days. These are held at devotees homes. Turiya das (a disciple of ACBVS) head of Caitanya Vaisnava Sanga has a nice temple in lower Haiku. He is probably the only one here practicing raganuga bhajan. There are devotees of Sridhara Maharaja (and Govinda Maharaja), BP Puri Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja and a few Prabhupada disciples. I know a couple of devotees who are nurses also. Of course the major downside to Maui is that it's much more expensive than the Big Island. However this may be offset if you can find good employment or have some way of making money which is easier here due to fact that more visitors come here. I know several devotees including myself that have made money in real estate. Some are agents and others just buying and selling for themselves. Other devotees become masseuses, or sell jewelry, or as I did work in the tourist industry (I taught scuba).

Hawaii and India are now our top two places for relocating. My wife is much more open to Hawaii than India, and I'm encouraged to see how cheaply places are still available for even though they may be "starkly simple." We were looking at similar places for similar prices around a grungy, jungle outpost town in Belize. I lived in India and Hawaii for three years each over two stays, and I love them both. Hawaii is definitely easier living as far as climate and environment. India has the appeal of spiritual culture and much lower costs of living. Most of the time I lived in HA I camped out in one way or another. To have my own land and cabin would be great. I make most of my income now doing weddings, which I can also do there. I might even be able to get some part-time, temporary work with the church doing supply preaching or interim pastor work.

I am thinking one of the next steps for us is to calculate our net worth and see just what we can afford. Our loose plan is to take about a month in February to visit our first choice place to relocate. Any further suggestions are welcome.

I used to be friends with Revatinandan as well as Atmarama and Dharma. Are they still around. Goursundar was also good to me, but he was a real hermit. I usually do better with "fringe" devotees than actual, strict IGM followers.

Keshava, what you say makes sense. I like Maui better than the Big Island as far as what it has to offer, but the higher population and prices may be an obstacle. We may have to visit both islands and consider the advantages of each. Basically, we're considering what to do with the rest of our lives.

Maui has always had a large New Age population, as you may remember from your days there, Subal. The Big Island is getting a more developed "spiritual" scene as well, as more folks move here from the Mainland. I think weddings would be a good possibility here, and on Maui as well, especially if you advertised for the tourist types. I think Narahari is making a good living doing weddings on Oahu.

Here on the Big Island, I may be the only person whose bhajan trends toward raganuga (except, I guess, for some of Narayan Maharaja's follwers), at least as far as my motivation is concerned, but I suspect that Gopavrindapal may also be moving in that direction. His focus is on the holy names, studying, and writing. His life is very simple, and now that his wife is gone, his only real distraction is helping his son develop himself for a business in remodeling houses. He has very little to do with the little temple that Mula started (and he remodeled) in Hilo.

Revatinandan (now known as Shambhu) is practically invisible. He practices astrology, and I suspect that his spritual practice is weak, but when you get him talking about his years of service and experience with Srila Prabhupada, he seems very "on," and it's hard to get him to stop. I'd bet he'd get a huge kick out of seeing you, although your perspectives on Prabhupada may be rather different. If you mean Atmarama the astrologer, I haven't seen him since we lived here in the '70s. I do think about him often, though. Goursundar has completely disappeared. He and Chandi split up (she lives on the Kohala side), and he lived on Oahu with Gaya. The last I heard, he was on Oahu doing graduate work in PoliSci at UH. Then . . . nothing. Poof! No one I know has a clue where they are or what they're doing. I'd love to see him, whatever he's up to. It was he, Turiya das, and Govinda dasi who shook me loose from my path of cynicism and surfing in 1969.

Subal ji, weddings are big business on Maui (as you probably know).

Narahari also does underwater scuba weddings.

I am also licensed to do weddings. I have an indian wedding to perform at the Kea Lani Hotel in Wailea in February for $1,000. So there is plenty of money on Maui.

You might also think about doing some real estate yourself. The guy I studied with is Rick Seiler. He has an online course at http://www.rickseiler.com/ I did it completely online while I was still living in Australia. Of course I did have some experience managing a vacation condo rental pool for a realtor in Kihei before that. But I would definitely recommend this guy's online course to anybody. You can do it as fast or slow as you like and when you finish you just go take the State test, find a broker and start selling. Since you already know Hawaii well having lived here before it should be no problem for you. And both Haiku and Hilo are definitely places that are seeing significant price increases and a strong market (what to speak of that, the rest of the place is still booming as well).

In case any other devotees are interested the above real estate course is only good for selling property in Hawaii. But I do recommend it if you live here.

Doing weddings is just a matter of incorporating your own Church (IRS sec. 501c3 Non Profit) and applying to the Board of Health.

If you want more info on the opportunities for nurses let me know I can ask Vanadevi and her husband who are nurses here.

Making money from Scuba is simply a matter of getting qualified which takes not less than 6 months of diving (if you are already a diver it can be much less). If any younger people are interested it's a nice career where you can travel the world and work pretty much anywhere. And instructors are always in demand. It's a fun healthy job and you get to preach to people to not smoke, drink, hurt fish, etc. All things that are detrimental to scuba. The qualifications are recognized in all countires so once you are an instructor you can go anywhere and you don't need retraining. If anyone is interested in the details email me at gregjay(at)softhome.net. I am a PADI Master Scuba Diver Trainer and I am personally qualified to train anybody up to professional level. Of course any devotees who want to do this will get a huge discount from me.

Also a good thing on Maui is selling jewelry and art. My wife is a well known artist here and she sells her work in a gallery upcountry and teaches as well. She also wholesales gemstones and beads from India and teaches jewelry making and beading. There are several devotees here on Maui who make and sell their own jewelry and artwork.

And if none of the above appeals to you, you can probably find a job doing just about anything on Maui. Next to Oahu Maui has more tourists visit it than any other island in Hawaii. We also get on average the wealthier tourists so there are plenty of visitor dollars here.

If anyone wants info on real estate here let me know. I can also help you if you are looking to rent rather than buy. Even if you are just visiting I can help you find a cheaper place to stay.

By the way my wife and I own homes in India and Hawaii and live in both places. If anyone wants info on how to buy land or a home in either place I can tell you. Buying in India in your own name is possible now since 1992. But there are lots of pitfalls as there are in buying anything in India. It's definitely worth it though to own a piece of a holy place to call your own at least temporarily during this lifetime.

Great! As an ordained UCC minister I can do weddings as part of a recognized church.


My wife is mostly interested in psychiatric or substance abuse nursing. Knowing about that would be helpful.


You are a great asset and I look forward to continuing this discussion as we progress. Thank you.

Babhru,

You are also a great resource. Thank you for your continued input which I hope to continue. There is nothing like having direct communication with someone we know and trust living where we want to go. We are considering going to the Big Island this winter and seeing you, Shambu and others, and probably going to Maui also.

Ah--substance abuse nursing! There's very likely plenty of work on this island in that field. Students here get trained as substance-abuse counselors and social wokers.

Let me know when your plans are made. I'll try to get in touch with Shambhu in the meantime to let him know you're planning tro visit.

Hey ...

Here's a source for rentals in Hawaii, apts, share rentals, and sublets....


http://honolulu.craigslist.org/


This one was interesting....sailboat living...pic included!


http://honolulu.craigslist.org/apa/47562463.html

Oh yea...

I almost forgot what the topic was all about with all this Hawaii talk;

Bangli, thanks for the links. However, I don't want to live in Honolulu or on a boat. I consider living on a boat in Belize but not HA. Much different waters.

Just to clarify, things are still in process. HA looks like a good, easy. logical choice, but India is still in play and I am still attracted to Jaipur. I don't know much about Bengal. Are there internet real estate listings for those places?

If only I would [forget].

I personally think that you will be ripped off unless you actually go to India and enquire (even then you could get ripped off). But here are some places to start:

http://www.jaipurrealtors.com/

http://www.indobase.com/rn/realagts.htm

http://www.indiaproperties.com/city/Jaipur....asp?city_cd=31
(use the search feature at the top of the above page)

Trikala prabhu bought a whole valley in South India/Tamil Nadu with waterfall, rainforest and a piece of ocean shore, banana plantation, and has quite some experience with India's official departments. Like you first can register as an non-profit-ashrama and have much better conditions to buy land, especially you don't have citizenship. You find his e-mail adress on his website:
http://www.geocities.com/trikaldas/index.htm

OK, registration as an Ashrama or non profit is one way to go but be aware that when you do this you have to have an Indian resident citizen on the board and you therefore do not have full control of the property. Also the Indian government can seize properties held by organizations under certain circumstances. Ashramas like that of Ramana Maharshi were siezed on the pretext of internal fighting between his disciples after his death.

My house is in registered in My Name. It belongs to me. The rules may have changed since I bought. Please read the following rules by the Reserve Bank of India at:

http://www.rbi.org.in/index.dll/55089?Open...=0&secid=20/0/0

I know I have to go to India to purchase anything. I just want to know what the price range is for something livable. In five minutes I found two 3-4 bedroom bungalows in Jaipur for $23-52,000. That's very encouraging. If I can buy a house for this kind of price, we can go and live in India the rest of our lives and never have to work again just because we need money as long as the economy doesn't completely tank and my pension disappear. We couldn't do that here or in HA. This is great information. Thanks.

I'm glad I could help. Please read the conditions for acquiring immovable property posted by the Reserve Bank of India

http://www.rbi.org.in/index.dll/55089?Open...=0&secid=20/0/0

Quoting:


I have been under the impression that currently a person of foreign origin would be allowed to own immobile property in India. However the text above seems to disagree. I wonder if I am missing something here.

Madhava, I was also amazed at this. The current law FEMA Foreign Exchange Management Act is not the one that I used to purchase my house. I purchased my house under the old FERA Foreign Exchange Regulations Act which was amended in 1992 to allow Foreign Residents, at first only NRI's, but later Foreign Nationals to acquire immovable property in India. So as far as I can see they have changed the Law again. However since I already won under the old law I have no problem. But it would seem if you look at the answer to Question 50 that if a Foreign National becomes a resident of India then s/he may acquire immovable property. The problem then is to become a resident. Becoming a resident means entering India on an entry visa rather than a tourist visa, and staying a certain number of days, etc. One usually needs a sponsor for this.

I may have the exact law somewhere if anyone is interested, but again it may have changed since I made my purchase.

That all seems very complicated and inintelligable to me at this time. I'll have to approach it again when the time is right and I can get a grasp on it. Thanks.

I believe the expression you're after is, "it's totally Indian".

Yes, I am interested. This change is what was confusing to me. How hard is it to become a resident of India if one has a modest amount of money and enough of an income to live on in India? Are nurses needed there and do they get preferential treatment for residency? How much of a commitment must a sponsor make and how does one get one if not connected to IGM or some other organization? I had an entry visa last time I went there in 1974 and it was not difficult.

My first suggestion is that you get a knowledgable Indian lawyer. That's what I did. I also incorporated an Indian nonprofit. But after making more enquiries at the time it was unnecessary. By the way if you think that you are confused that is nothing to the confusion in India. I found that NOONE actually knew the law. At every step of the procedure I had to give out written versions of the Reserve Bank regulations to get anything done. Even that did not help in some cases. I could not even change the US dollars at the State Bank of India in Trichy to make the purchase and had to go all the way (6 hours by train) to Madras to change the money with a bank that a friend of mine had connections with. These days foreign exchange may be easier but the rest of the process seems to have gotten more confusing.

Start by contacting the Indian consulate:

http://www.indianconsulate-sf.org/

Read the section under Visas. Entry visas it seems are now only issued to PIO's (People of Indian Origin). In the old days you could get an entry visa even if you were a foreigner.

Also there is a notice that dual citizenship may be available soon but the details are not given. I would expect dual citizenship to basically to also apply only to PIO's

Some devotees like Jayapataka and Vasughosha have become Indian citizens. You are required to give up your US citizenship. (However the US will give it back to you later if you want it. But India does not recognize dual citizenship yet. The US does, although this has not always been the case. Pretty much though if you were born in the US you can always get it back)

I thought this was already old news.

It seems the consulate in Chicago has a different definition of who is eligable for an entry visa: "ENTRY VISA: Valid for 6 months to 5 years with multiple entries. This visa allows stay for more than six months and is available to people of Indian origin or applicants having abiding reasons to visit India." It sure doesn't make it easy to know whats what.

Chicago Consulate visa page

OK, that's nice in theory. With Indian consulates it is common that one does not know what the others are doing. It is common that one place will be easy to get a visa and another will be hard. This is just part of the Indian Consulate experience.

Anyway I got my last visa from the San Francisco consulate. It was a 10 year tourist/business multiple entry. That is the easiest and most common for US Nationals.

Try applying for an entry visa. They are probably going to ask what your "abiding reasons to visit India" are. What will you say? I want to retire? Don't say that. They won't give you an entry visa for that. So what were you thinking of saying?

You know of course that even if you get the entry visa you have to register at the local Foreign Registration office within 2 weeks of entry and then you have to tell them everytime you travel to other cities, etc, etc. It's just like being on probation. And you have to get an AIDS test. And then when you leave the country (as you probably will want to in summer) you have to make sure that you give them the correct paper work with the income tax exemption and get a paper called non objection to return before you leave. I have done all these things but now I just get my tourist visa and avoid the headaches.

Registration in Jaipur where there are lots of Foreigners will probably involve lots of baksheesh! as well as the pwer trips and mind games that petty Indian officials like to play.

Last time we registered in Trichy, there was not even anyone who spoke English at the Foreign Registatration Office (because all of the Foriegners they are used to dealing with are Tamil refugees from the civil war in Sri Lanka), it took months to do the paperwork and we had to bribe the local Police Chief (as usual). Then when we went to leave the country no one wanted to see or take the paperwork that we worked so hard to get. It was all a big waste of time getting all the papers and permits cause no one cared when we left. So I don't think I would ever do it again. I have done it more than once exactly by the books and in future I will just bribe people, it's easier, quicker and maybe even cheaper.

If you really want to live there my best advise is to take Indian citizenship. Give up your US citizenship and get the Indian one. Later you can get back the US one easily like Jayapataka and Vasugosha. A big plus to getting Indian citizenship is speaking an Indian language, so start studying Hindi.

Once you are a citizen then you can buy and sell and stay whatever and wherever you like.

Why isn't anyone considering Vermont? All the police are straggly long haired hippies and about the most controversial thing that happens is when the Unitarian Church has their huge wooden question mark burnings.

As I understand it, with a 10 year tourist/business multiple entry visa, we would have to leave the country at least every six months. We want to stay there and not leave (except my wife wants to see her familly once a year). I was planning to tell them that I wanted to retire there and/or be a life coach, vaishnava devotee returning to spiritual homeland, etc. I was not aware of all the hassels involved with registration, etc.. I would not mind becoming a citizen, but don't you have to live there for some years first? I guess this is why I've been living in the USA for the past 30 years. We're supposed to be "number one" and we have immigrants from all over. Yet, it is very hard to move to another country without lots of money. Hawaii is sounding more attractive.

Subalji, you can actually stay longer than 6 months on the tourist visa. We stayed for a whole year (and you may be able to stay longer). But the catch is that you have to register just the same as if you come in on the entry visa. If you do not register within two weeks after entering they will not let you extend your tourist visa. If you do then you can extend. However if you are living in jaipur, you could just take a trip to Nepal (train and bus or short flight). You just have to walk across the border for one day and then you can come back for 6 more month . This is if you don't want to register. But when my wife and I bought out house in Sri Rangam we came back after 6 months and renovated and then we came back again after 6 months and stayed for a whole year. We did this on a tourist visa. We registered and then extended. It was really no problem. It just involves going to the FRO office in Trichy every once in a while to check on how the paperwork was going on. I think that this is an easy way to do things.

So although you need to be one a entry visa for buying. Later on you can just come and go on tourist visas. That's what we do, eve nif we want to stay beyond 6 months. If you know that you want to stay past 6 months then either do the registration or take a quick trip to Nepal or Sri lanka or somewhere close.

I had my wife read all the posts in this thread. We decided to go to Delhi, Vrindaban and Jaipur (where we would spend the most time) in February to check things out and see if it is a viable option for us. Thanks for the input. Anything further would be appreciated.

Suggestion:

If you are going to go to India then:

1. Try to go in on an entry visa.

2. If not go on a tourist visa and register.

3. If not at least take the money with you (travellers checks not cash as you will have to change them legally anyway) (You never know when you may see the place of your dreams, and the prices are not going down, they are going up day by day.)

4. Definitely find out the legalities with a good lawyer (or more than one if it's confusing to them too)

5. Definitely incorporate a non profit organization while you are there. (This means finding an Indian citizen who you can trust.) (This cannot hurt and may be of use to you for other reasons.)

Most bigger cities have automatic tellers (is that the word you commonly use?) you can use with a VISA card. Some even take VISA Electron, at least in Delhi. That's what we do ourselves, we go to Delhi now and then and pick up as much as we need.

Are you talking about cash advances on a credit card or cash from a debit card?

The cash advances on credit cards are usually very expensive interest wise and most card transactions (debit or credit) do come with fees on top of the exchange rate which you don't know until you get the statement. I think that you have more control of these factors if you take cash or travellers checks.

Besides getting a little cash from an ATM (that's what we call them in the US) is one thing and getting a whole lot of cash, enough to buy a house is completely another thing.

I could not even change that much at the State Bank of India when I bought my house. Maybe it is different now but when I did it (1994) Banks would refuse to change more than about $200 US per day for you if you were a tourist.

The most important thing when buying a house is that you have a receipt to prove that you changed all the money legally.

VISA Europe charges 2.5% of the total quantity + a flat 2 euro fee when you use an ATM in India with a VISA-card. The fee is the same for VISA Electron, which is a debit card. So it isn't all that big a fee considering that you don't have to carry all that load of money / checks on you all the time. Of course if you're talking about big money, then it certainly adds up. However I don't know about the daily limits, though I recall withdrawing some 30.000 Rs from a Delhi ATM last time I was there, and this was with VISA Electron, a debit card.

You can check the locations for Visa ATM:s here. Most ATMs in Delhi that accept VISA seem to be compatible with VISA Electron, too.

According to some websites the cost of builtup homes/apartments in major cities in India can be as high as Rs. 2400 per square foot. My house is on 2400 square feet of land with about 1800 square feet under roof. By these calculations a house like that in an urban area could run you upwards of $100,000 US. Adding another $2,500 in fees for VISA fees (even if you could draw $100,000 out of an ATM machine) is absurd.

Thanks for the website for finding ATM's though. There are 3 near my house in Trichy. I knew of one before, the other two I didn't know of. Using an ATM would be only for emergencies for me. I do things the old way. I take crisp new US $100 notes. No commission to Visa, no ATM fee. If the Bank is too slow or gives a bad rate I can always change them on the black market.

When I bought my house I did it by changing US $100 cash in a bank in Madras. I opened a special type of account available to foreigners (actually I had some other accounts when I had Smithsonian money for use on the Matsya project but I could not use that account because it would be co-mingling of funds) and then got them to make me a demand draft which is basically a cashiers check for the "white" amount. (You do understand that whatever you buy in India there is "white" above-board legal money and there is in addition the "black" illegal under-the-table money. So the "white" money is paid by demand draft and the "black" has to be paid cash.)

The areas outside Delhi are undergoing huge new developments partially due to this, and of course, because of the incredible growth of the middle classes. A friend explained that sometimes the white amount for existing properties in Delhi is only 10%. As property is expensive there and as a bank can only loan money on the white amount (the stated value of the house), most people cannot afford to buy in Delhi. They'd need to have 90%+ of the house in cash. In Noida and the other new suburbs, however they can go to the bank and ask for a mortgage based on the real value of the property. And often the new developments are builder financed also. Check out the weekend papers when in Delhi--it's amazing to see all the communities and apartments advertising broadband access, reverse-osmosis water filtration, gyms, etc., etc. The same developments are starting to also appear in Vrindavan and I even saw one advertised for construction at Govardhan (only electric golf carts are allowed in the complex). Some of them may also be available by lease rather than freehold.

Another option the might be worth investigating for money transfers are the US offices of the major Indian banks, e.g. the State Bank of India. I looked into them for making wire transfers (much cheaper than my local banks) but they might also be a good avenue for transferring money to yourself or a seller.

I thought you just got done telling me not to bother about an entry visa even when wanting to stay there permanently. Now, we plan to go for a month at most and you say to get one.?

I would like to be able to make some money in India doing life coaching, spiritual teaching or whatever. Would a non-profit org help me do this? Why are you recommending this? One thought I have is that my attorney be the Indian citizen.?

I didn't know that you were only going for a month. It is probably not possible to buy anything in one month. It will take at least a month after you make a deal with a seller to do all the paperwork. But if you do find a place during your month to save time and trouble when coming back and buying if you come in on a multiple-entry entry visa to start with you can just come back right away and buy. What happened to me was I found a place but did not have the money to buy with me. So I made a deal with the seller and went back to the US to get the money. It took about 6 months for me to scrape all the money together and by then the guy wanted more and finally when we returned after 6 months the whole deal fell through. So then we ended up buying another house. This was actually really fortunate as the first one was totally encumbered and under litigation. We could never have bought it anyway. This is one of the main reasons why you need a lawyer, to warn you of potential problems with the title.

So if you are just going for one month then you could get a tourist visa but then if you find a place you will have to go out and get an entry visa and then return on it before you can buy. That's why I said just get the multiple-entry entry visa even though you are going only for one month now. If you find something then you have the option of buying right away or if you have to come back to get the money or reschedule the trip you don't have to bother with the visa just come back on the same one. Besides what happens if you find a house and then come back to the states to get your entry visa and you have everything, the money, the deal set up but the embassy won't give you the entry visa? That's why, since the rules now seem to say that you must only buy if you are on an entry visa, that you should look into that first and get that first. If these rules are correct then if you cannot get the visa there is no point in looking for a house. Of course if this is the case you can switch to plan B ie making a non profit to buy the house. That's why I said make the non profit. If somewhere along the line you have probelms buying in your own name you don't want the deal to fall through so you should have a non profit all set up and ready to go just in case. Anyone can handle the potential problems that occur in India but the secret is to be prepared for any eventuality. Have backup plans.



Don't bet on making any money in India. Even if you could, there are other considerations. Like once you start making money the government will require you to get income tax clearance before leaving, etc. For the amount of money that you could make it might not be worth it.



It can't hurt and most likely you will not make the money but the organization will. You can be maintained by the organization. Like many are by ISKCON. Also the non profit can help you get the entry visa. So if you go on a tourist visa, set up the non profit and then it will help you get the entry visa later on.



See above.



Good idea, but do you know an Indian lawyer you can trust?